God and Tragedies [Archive] - Ceramic Tile Advice Forums

Scooter

08-05-2007, 04:24 PM

After a recent discussion at the local watering hole about the Mnpls bridge disaster, which led to the discussion of "How Could God Let this Happen?" I postulated 4 possible scenarios, if you believe in God:

1. God ordained the disaster, e.g., he did it for his own reasons.

2. God knew about it, could have stopped it, but did not intervene.

3. God knew about the bridge disaster, and was powerless to stop it.

4. God didn't know about the bridge disaster, e.g., was working on more important things.

How you answer this question is revealing how you interpret God.

HS345

08-05-2007, 05:17 PM

Wow Scooter, You do know you're opening a big 'ole can 'o worms, don't you?

Answer: #2

ddmoit

08-05-2007, 05:27 PM

Just for the chance to agree with Greg on something, I pick number 2 as well.

08-05-2007, 05:49 PM

Well, always one to help pewt oil on the waters.........How about none of the above?

I love it when folks attribute incidents like that to the work of their particular imaginary friend.

Perhaps Physics had something to do with it? :shrug:

Scooter

08-05-2007, 05:57 PM

At this point, religion is a more civil conversation than the Iraq war. Go figure.

HS345

08-05-2007, 06:03 PM

Perhaps Physics had something to do with it?
I thought that's what Dan and I said.
Awful funny that you spelt physics with a capital "P". :D

TileArt1

08-05-2007, 06:04 PM

I'm just gonna lurk in the corner and watch the fur fly.

I have enough people still irritated with me about the evolution thread. :D

kate42

08-05-2007, 06:30 PM

Scooter :wave:
http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/sign/sign0142.gif (http://www.arlingtonhotelgroup.co.uk/george_norwich/index.aspx)

I pick number 2.

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/innocent/innocent0006.gif (http://www.arlingtonhotelgroup.co.uk/george_norwich/index.aspx)

Eric Philson

08-05-2007, 06:50 PM

I don't know quite what God's decision making process composes of, but maybe these words of Jesus offer some insight.

Luke
Chapter 13
1
1 2 At that time some people who were present there told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with the blood of their sacrifices.
2
He said to them in reply, "Do you think that because these Galileans suffered in this way they were greater sinners than all other Galileans?
3
By no means! But I tell you, if you do not repent, you will all perish as they did!
4
Or those eighteen people who were killed when the tower at Siloam fell on them 3 --do you think they were more guilty than everyone else who lived in Jerusalem?
5
By no means! But I tell you, if you do not repent, you will all perish as they did!"

Three things are readily apparent in the message of this passage and the rest of Jesus' teaching;
1. We're all sinners on equal standing.
2. We're all gonna die as sinners if outside of Gods saving mercy.
3. That's the nature of the world we live in.

One thing that's obviously true and observable in this bridge tragedy is that men made the bridge, the bridge was flawed, men could not control its' collapse, therefore man is probably not God.

Maybe instead of asking why God let this happen, it may be appropriate to ask why God doesn't let it happen to the rest of us as well.

Not an answer, just some thoughts.

Oh yeah, and physics too. :D

But definately not this guy :devil2:

chuck stevenson

08-05-2007, 08:32 PM

None of the above. God is infinite, We are a speck of undiscovered sand.

Any or all of the below.

Metal fatigue
Design breakdown
Imported steel

Mountain Tile

08-05-2007, 08:37 PM

Well Scooter, God did"nt build that bridge, and maybe he did intervene, It was really amazing more people were not killed, two school buses of children survived to live and tell how it was a miracle they survived, maybe God tried to tell someone the bridge was not safe, but as usuall people would not listen. Maybe if it were not for God that whole bridge would have crumbled into bits and everyone would have died. Eric what makes you so sure the Devil had nothing to do with it? He might not of brought that bridge down himself, but he might have influenced those who were responsible for public safety. Besides God has an awsome habit of turning disasters and what the Devil meant for evil into something good. I"m not saying it is good people were hurt and perished, but God can make good out of any bad, but you have to have Faith, thats how he works, not you save everyone, even the ones who dont believe in you and maybe we will believe. We cant understand Gods reasoning or timing, but if we trust in him, and ask him in prayer, he will deliver. God answers prayers every day, and sometimes I thank him for the prayers he does not answer. I trust in the Lord Jesus and I know he will bring healing and comfort to those affected. It"s when this country stops trusting in God and blaming him we really got problems.

HS345

08-05-2007, 09:14 PM

Chuck, :goodpost:
I VERY simply chose the answer that was most plausible and assuming I had to pick one out of the four.
In light of your comments, I now realize I was in error.
Thank you.

Good one Scooter, I now see the method to your madness. Real answer, none of the above. Right?

Eric Philson

08-05-2007, 11:00 PM

Chuck,

The reason I exclude satanic responsibility is not that I disregard his influence. The reason is because the true responsibility lies on us. We are the free choice agents. We can choose action or inaction. These infrastructure deficiency issues were known long before this occurred.

Yes, perhaps he(satan) had his role for which he is responsible. If we hold to the biblical account though, between satan and us, we are the ones with the real power. He is just an usurper bent on deceiving mankind into doing his bidding. We have a responsibility to not be deceived, complacent or what ever descriptive term we wish to apply to it.

Nonetheless, we are all imperfect, fallen. It is therefore gods role to raise up roses from amidst the thorns so to speak. We have in ourselves no ability to do so ourselves. reread the passages I quoted in my post above. another pertenant quote is the verse that states that "All things work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose." This "good" of which it refers in no way exempts "believers" from the same heartaches and tragedy experienced by everyone else. The silver lining, so to speak, for the believer is having hope that extends beyond and supercedes our circumstances, including our very life. Now that is an incredible benefit that I am exceedingly glad is mine. But that "good" in no way should be seen as something that those who don't happen to believe in the Jesus who I worship should be expected to embrace. Asking someone who sees no need for personal redemption to have faith, and saying that God will deliver them from their tears anyway is in contrast of everything scripturally supportable concerning the issue. In addition, it rings hollow to those who through this tragedy have deceased loved ones. The only thing that will comfort them is being reunited with someone who is buried six feet in the ground. Not possible.

I wish all people had the living hope that you and I seem to share in common, but they just don't. I agree that God is the God of all comfort. but only for those who "do not grieve as those who have no hope". For everyone else, though, there just isn't much to be had in the way of redeeming value here.

Now how about a discussion about our complacency as US citizens and the role that plays in tragedies such as this. why did that bridge fall anyway?

jjwq8

08-06-2007, 03:20 AM

Well at least it proves Dubya is liar. He claims to converse with God regularly. Surely God would have mentioned it in passing unless the nature of the conversations is Q&A, in which case Dubya obviously asks the wrong questions or he is simply ignored (my choice). Silly me. I forgot the obvious. Dubya is the one giving the answers, in which case, remove all sharp objects from pockets, place heads between legs and kiss your tushies goodbye.

sdaniels7114

08-06-2007, 05:10 AM

I lean towards #5, none of the above.

I will say that #4 is the scenario for most sports 'miracles.' If god exists, I'm sure he didn't participate in the Red Sox' historic comeback vs the Yankees of 2004 for example.

If he was busy,
1) exhorting Theo Epstein to get more defense at the trading deadline,
2) convincing Derick Lowe to get his head out his behind,
3) getting Pedro Martinez' nose out of the air,
4) holding Curt Schilling's ankle together for just one more inning,

when he could have been undoing the metal fatigue building up on that bridge he's not much of a God in my book. So I don't think he participated if he does exist, but I won't comment on the Bambino perhaps finally deciding that we'd suffered enough.

Dave Taylor

08-06-2007, 05:37 AM

Scooter wrote........ How you answer this question is revealing how you interpret God.

Well, I guess I interpret God as being' pretty good to me then.....

That POS 35W bridge didn't fall during the more than several hundred times I traversed it.... and I wasn't in one-o-the twin towers during 9/11, and I didn't take a plane ride with Mn Senator Coleman, and I wasn't around Mpls during their last big tornado, and I wasn't near the Pentagon nor did I fly over PA, nor did I wander in the desert and die of thirst, nor do I live in New Orleans, nor have my car breaks failed (yet), nor have I eaten any tainted food (at least I don't think I have), and the last time I was in Vegas I about broke even, and I and my family are healthy, and it was my neighbors house that burned to the ground, not mine, and on and on and on......

jvcstone

08-06-2007, 07:42 AM

I have to weigh in with the "none of the above" crowd. What ever "god" may be, I'm pretty sure (he,she,it) doesn't micro manage the affairs on this planet, or any other.

JVC

kate42

08-06-2007, 08:09 AM

I'm pretty sure (he,she,it) doesn't micro manage the affairs on this planet, or any other.

That's why I picked number 2. ;)

flatfloor

08-06-2007, 11:55 AM

Jeremy, give it a rest.

Scooter said if you believe in God.

If you don't believe you have no position in this discussion.

#2

jjwq8

08-07-2007, 12:32 AM

Jim,
A little perspective. M is far closer to God than I could ever claim to be. She saw it on TV and repeated an age old saying that in effect is that God carries a very large stick.
The view from here is that everything is because God wills it and being just, he exercises equanimity. The US destroys bridges in foreign lands, God destroys a bridge in the US.
It may be hocus pocus but it has a certain symmetry to it.

Jeremy

08-07-2007, 07:50 AM

Wouldnt it be ok too, if people were allowed to believe in God, if they so choose, without constant interjection from folks who are too smart to believe? Just allow those of us who DO believe, to go our merry way, while those of you on the other side, use your extended intelligence to cure cancer, or build better buildings. After all, it cant be that difficult....

Why on Earth would someone who HONESTLY does NOT believe in something, have that SOMETHING on his MIND so CONTINUOUSLY??? :rofl:

kate42

08-07-2007, 09:21 AM

Jeremy :wave:

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/sign/sign0092.gif (http://search.orange.co.uk/all?p=_searchbox&pt=resultgo&brand=ouk&tab=web&actualtabweb=web&q=site%3Awww.homes24.co.uk+homes24&tabRadio=web) I couldn't have said it better. :)

Splinter

08-07-2007, 09:24 AM

Why on Earth would someone who HONESTLY does NOT believe in something, have that SOMETHING on his MIND so CONTINUOUSLY???

Probably because those that do believe try to shove it down our throats on a daily basis, and insist we'll wind up in what they believe is hell when we all go toes up.

Just like the believers dont understand how we dismiss God, we cant understand how so many can waste time and resources on such beliefs. I cant write off inexplicable occurances as God's will.. I just think we dont have the technology or understanding to explain them yet. After all, we are always still evolving, right? ;)

Sorry, Jim, I had to contribute here to give Jeremy a view from the other side...

kate42

08-07-2007, 09:32 AM

Sorry, Jim, I had to contribute here to give Jeremy a view from the other side...

I'm sure Jeremy has had a view from the other side many, many times.As Jim said

If you don't believe you have no position in this discussion.

ddmoit

08-07-2007, 09:41 AM

As we continue to become more and more of a democracy, our neighbors, as a result, have more and more control of how we live our lives. We are then compelled to engage in these types of arguments because our stake in the outcome is ever larger. We are more susceptible to the tyranny of the majority than ever before. It's one more way that our Constitution has failed us - to the delight of those who are really in charge.

08-07-2007, 09:42 AM

Took the words right out of my mouth, Alex.

Jeremy, it's difficult not to think of your particular brand of belief on a daily basis as it is shoved in our faces constantly. I think about it when I pay the property taxes on your very expensive real estate from which you demand and receive exemption, and the income taxes of your preachers, from which they are exempted, and have my income tax dollars extorted to support the "faith based" organizations our dear President and Congress now find in favor, for example.

Then I must listen to intonations of your calls to your invisible superheros when I attend city council or county commission meetings and other purely business functions of interest to me as a citizen.

Just a few small examples of how y'all make yourownselfs unforgetable. :)

It's very difficult to ignore organized religion in this country, not because of any particular merit, just because it is so pervasive.
If you don't believe you have no position in this discussion.I don't think it works quite that way here, Jim. :)

kate42

08-07-2007, 10:06 AM

invisible superheros
:rofl: You make me laugh. A superhero? God is probably laughing too. :D

John Terry

08-07-2007, 11:51 AM

"I contend that we are all atheists, I just believe in one less god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all other possible gods, then you will know why I dismiss yours."

flatfloor

08-07-2007, 12:56 PM

CX, Scooter's premise is that there is a God. Therefore an atheist can't take a position.

Can there be a debate over is there or isn't there, are you allowed to not believe? certainly. :)

There are lots of believers out there who couldn't hold a candle to your ethics, morality or honesty. That's the last %#@!!! complement you'll get from me for a long time. So there. :tongue:

Splinter

08-07-2007, 03:44 PM

Quote:

If you don't believe you have no position in this discussion.

Congratulations Kathleen, I wasnt aware you were promoted to moderator. :nya:

Since when is it taboo to derail a thread around this place anyway? :yeah:

flatfloor

08-07-2007, 03:53 PM

Kathleen didn't say that I did. :tongue: :)

Splinter

08-07-2007, 03:58 PM

Originally, no, she didnt.. but she did quote you and threw it at me a few posts up, my friend... :nod: :x:

kate42

08-07-2007, 04:36 PM

Splinter http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/mittelgrosse/medium-smiley-073.gif

Originally, no, she didnt.. but she did quote you and threw it at me a few posts up,,

So, is it your position that I can't quote a moderator because if I quote a MODERATOR it makes me a MODERATOR? :scratch: Very interesting. :D

bbcamp

08-07-2007, 05:39 PM

Must be the heat... :suspect:

GraniteGirl

08-07-2007, 06:37 PM

What is it in human nature that makes for the iresistable urge to assign blame or reason to events that clearly were beyond anybody's control?

If anybody could predict future occurrences, would anybody have known the bridge was on the verge of collapsing? Granted the (typically) really dumb government action of redecking a structure with a certified compromised integrity probably did not help any, but still, how could anyone have guessed the time and manner of that structure's demise?

In addition, cases like the poor woman who NEVER took that way home and on that day, at that precise moment was right in the middle of that bridge just would underline the question of predicting things. Did she know? Did she have a death wish? Was she just tired of struggling with the run of the mill family things and finances and wanted a way out? Could one pin the blame for the failure on her or any of the other drivers on there that day - or maybe on the beurocrat that bowed to pressure and decided to fix all those potholes? Of course all these scenarios are absurd, but I can bet that someone seriously considered one or a few of them in order to assign some kind of responsibility in a situation that was horrible beyond comprehension.

Here is my take on this - if it even would add anything to this discussion and if anybody should care:

There is indeed a higher power, and it is extremely arrogant of any human to think that he/she could fathom His purpose and motivation. I am a firm believer that your course in life is pre-ordained and once you have run your course, your time is up. You might die quietly at home in your sleep, or you could die on a bridge with eight other people or in a plane crash with 250 other passengers. Would it make a difference? The end result is the same.

How do you know when you'll die or how long your life would be? You don't. Why are you here? Goodness knows, so you might as well give life a good go and enjoy it while you can. Worrying why X passed away/got cancer/lost a llimb/had an accident/outlived her only child etc etc is fruitless and takes time away from enjoying what you have been given.

Sure you have a limited ability to change your lot in life through the choices you make. Your purpose in life might be to inspire your neighbor's kid to be the next Albert Einstein or something, but if you sit around moping and worrying about things that will never make sense to you or things that you could not have changed even if you tried, you might never be in a position to touch his life. Do you really want to take that chance? I prefer not to. I have no need to understand why things like that happened. They could not have been stopped even if I tried.

I am with Dave T on this one. I am happy and thankful for what I have http://www.smileyworld.com/dictionary/images/smileys/Characters/Albert_Einstein.gif

ddmoit

08-07-2007, 06:39 PM

Hey Adriana,

Where'd ya get that Dave T smiley???

GraniteGirl

08-07-2007, 06:43 PM

Where'd ya get that Dave T smiley???

Google is a wonderful place :tup2:

Edit: Here I go write something I thought was real profound and Dan was impressed by my DaveT smiley - go figure :D

ddmoit

08-07-2007, 06:49 PM

Adriana,

I was celebrating your profundity with a bout of irony.:D

kate42

08-07-2007, 07:18 PM

Adriana :wave:

:goodpost: ;)

08-07-2007, 08:20 PM

There are lots of believers out there who couldn't hold a candle to your ethics, morality or honesty. That's the last %#@!!! complement you'll get from me for a long time. So there.I'm honored by your comment, Jim. I believe those to be traits gained only from one's parents and surroundings at a very early age - or not at all.

I'd say I'm grateful that I was taught that way, but how would I know? Maybe life is more fun if you aren't burdened with all that moral BS? I know it certainly appears to be more profitable. :D

John Terry

08-10-2007, 05:18 AM

For anyone who knows about religion answer this (amongst many other things)-

How come the Sinai bible (oldest in the world), the Alexandrian bible (2nd oldest) both at the British Library and the Vatican bible don't mention anything about Christs resurection, when the resurection is a central tenet of the religion?

http://www.worldproutassembly.org/archives/2007/08/the_forged_orig.html

flatfloor

08-10-2007, 10:41 AM

They were written before the resurrection? :rolleyes:

Eric Philson

08-10-2007, 05:38 PM

http://www.sinaiticus.com/

Read John ch. 20

John Terry

08-11-2007, 04:25 AM

The things is though, they cant have been written before the reincarnation because it wasn't written until around 350 AD.

Kinda leaves a 350 year hole in your theory.

The BIBLE is one giant FORGERY and entire Christian belief is based upon mystic FICTION

GraniteGirl

08-11-2007, 07:30 AM

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/jdo0720l.jpg

Jeremy

08-12-2007, 11:27 AM

I understand your thoughts completely, CX. I understand them because I have the SAME feelings about some of the BS which is FORCED upon me on a daily basis by some of the "non-believers", or whatever they wish to be called. "Their" agenda being nothing short of sickening, and without MY consent, will be forced upon MY child since the only private school has closed in our area. But thats ok, I guess, since its not "God" related. Lets teach our children that the two bearded men kissing and fondling each other is "normal and good", but that "one Nation under GOD" is TOTALLY obnoxious and should NEVER be repeated on school property. Yeah, my priorities are out of whack, but yours are right on track....

The fact is that, even IF all the "non-believers" are correct, the USA would be a better place, if everyone at least TRIED to live by the basic principles of the Bible. No its not my opinion, it is a FACT. Might not be a fact that a lot of folks would like to admit, nor would they ever admit to such in a public forum, but its still a fact.

One question for CX, and anyone else who shares his complaint regarding taxes and church: Do you openly oppose YOUR tax dollars being spent building inner-city projects, and funding welfare programs which are failing day by day? If thats your main concern, you know, the money part of it, I am positive that you can find EXTREME waste which isnt even close to what you are worried about. BUT, of course, THAT wouldnt be a very PC thing to bitch about.

Lets stick to bashing religion, God, and the thought of decency. :yipee:

Splinter

08-12-2007, 02:02 PM

The fact is that, even IF all the "non-believers" are correct, the USA would be a better place, if everyone at least TRIED to live by the basic principles of the Bible. No its not my opinion, it is a FACT.

Facts are things that can be proven... How does one prove your idea? The entire USA wont live by the basic principles of the bible, mainly because a lot of US citizens aren't Christian, therefore your opinion cannot be proven as fact... So it's still an opinion. Sorry.

"Their" agenda ... will be forced upon MY child... But thats ok, I guess, since its not "God" related

Jeremy, I wouldn't say that "non-believers" want to corrupt your child... The current school curriculum teaches what we know at the moment, be it times tables, the english language, or the history of man. There is actual DNA evidence that proves we have evolved from at least a lesser man...

When someone can prove that we are all decendents from two people named Adam and Eve who were created by an entity that holds power over everything, then I certainly would demand it be taught in our schools. Until then, I tend to believe what man has already discovered about our past. http://johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=52701

As far as the tax dollars issue, I dont believe you can compare taxes going to churches with taxes going to (even failing) welfare programs. Apples and oranges, my friend. At least it is in my opinion.

Lets stick to bashing religion, God, and the thought of decency

I like to think I'm a decent man, and I hope my friends and all of you here agree. I'm not a religious man however, so am I just wrong about myself?

ddmoit

08-12-2007, 02:35 PM

Hey Alex,

To the extent that I know you, you seem like decent folk to me.

I am one Christian who believes that ethical and moral behavior can and does stem from other sources than Christianity or other religions. I believe that individuals can choose a course of morality and ethics out of pure self-interest.

Humans have the ability to reason, and thus have free will. We can choose to ignore, antagonize, or cooperate with other humans. It turns out that cooperating is the most self-serving course of action. Without cooperation, the division of labor, and thus all the benefits of the free market are not possible.

Ethics and morality are what I consider the lubrication of cooperation. Things just seem to go smoother when they are practiced.

Tom Tee

08-12-2007, 02:35 PM

The Holy Bible is not for everyone, that is very obvious in society's daily practice and even in written the scripture it's self.

From what I understand it is a record which may be either accepted or rejected. There is a variety of faith, science and logic basis for either position.

In order for a better understanding of any position taken on God and His purposes; I believe that both anit-Christian bashing by critics and Bible thumping by believers are not profitable.

As a Christian I have been profoundly embarassed by how some believers present their beliefs. (In addition I have been embarrased at times by my own conduct.)

On the other hand, I have also read a fair amount of material which preempts God as a factor or even as an enity. I have found the reasons for this to be well expressed in scientific expounding.

Christians and those not sharing that position can each have scientific arguements.

One of the things that seems to seperate the camps is the issue of spiritual faith. St. Paul writes in his letter to the church in Ephesus "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is a gift of God".

Most of us have our own reasons for the decisions we make, for me it is spirit faith based.

I can appreciate various positions on God written in a civil fashion. Nothing quite as refreshing as any position shared in an honest civil way. May not agree with many positions from either side but would hope to never take any disagreement as a reason to make strong unfriendly statements. Have not had a discussion of this topic where I did not learn something.

Nor would I want to be blinded by what could seem like my own safe ignorance.

Thank you all for the sharing and JB for the opportunity.

tt

Bri

08-12-2007, 05:09 PM

I've often wondered about this. Does anybody know of a study or research, that shows some sort of chemical or hormonal change in the human body the shows the difference in a believer and a non believer? Someone who is very religious, seem to me at least, to be almost high. Like an athlete who hits that wall and and can go on for what seems like forever. I guess the same can be said for non-believers, as they seem to act like they just smoked some of the good stuff, and are almost too mellow about the subject. :gerg:

Eric Philson

08-12-2007, 05:26 PM

The Holy Bible is not for everyone

I agree with your whole post overall Tom. I don't, however, think we can ever escape the natural division that occurs between partys who both believe they have objectivity or truth in their favor. There can be civil discussion if the oposing sides will agree to keep it that way, but at the end of it all, both partys are, after all, trying to convince the other one that they are deceived in their beliefs.

ddmoit

08-12-2007, 05:42 PM

Eric,

How I long for the old days when disagreeing parties were merely trying to persuade one another. These days, they are appealing to the government to force their neighbors to conform. The government is all too happy to expand its power to accommodate the majority.

Eric Philson

08-12-2007, 06:19 PM

How I long for the old days when disagreeing parties were merely trying to persuade one another.

Well....In the old days things got ugly often enough too. In our nation there hasn't always been hugs and kisses either. We had founding fathers shooting at each other in a duel, a civil war, racial riots, etc. In the not so recent past there have been inquisitions, crusades, attempts at annihilation and such.

There are, I'm sure, some examples of good behavior among opposing parties somewhere in the historical record. Wish I could think of some :shrug:

These aren't really all examples of what I think you're referring to though. I think you're referring to a more genteel time in our recent past when good manners and mutual respect were more the norm. Or were they really? :scratch:

Regardless, anyone at any time can choose a nondestructive line of discourse. And if two parties choose to participate in it, communication might actually take place. :)

Dittos on the gov't problem. That's a two headed monster too.

Tom Tee

08-12-2007, 07:30 PM

Eric,

I hear you well.

However that's is one of the areas I have always stumbled. I can go to the Army/Navy game but have a real hard time cheering for either team. Just can't do it.

These are our service men and women. One team, one purpose.

Have you ever spent time studying the Civil War? What a national tragedy.

Many other conflicts in time which today makes one question the wisdom of conflict.

Maybe just have the leaders duke it out. Put up or shut up.

Wonder if we had all female world leaders, would there be more concern for the family than the head cases out there now?

We would have peace at least three weeks a month.

tt

kate42

08-12-2007, 07:40 PM

:wave:

We would have peace at least three weeks a month.

Everday when you get to be my age. :nod: :D

Eric Philson

08-12-2007, 08:08 PM

Tom,

If you look back in the archives of this site a couple of years, you'll find plenty of discussion and debate regarding the Civil War and its' lingering repercussions. There's a few old geezers around here who'll put up a real intriguing round of jabberjawing about that topic and many others if you're a history buff like me. Just start a thread about some civil War era topic like say 'was Lincoln a true patriot' or something like that, and see what you get. I know I'm game.

Just keep in mind though, some of these geezers around here have first hand knowledge of the time period whereas young guys like me can only read about it in books. :)

Tom Tee

08-12-2007, 10:00 PM

Seem to remember Lincoln was focus grouping the slave issue. He finally did the right thing but there is discussion on motive.

That's the part of the "us vs. them" mentality that bothers me. My fore fathers shot at Brits and Southerners and thought they were superior to others. Now we are all on the same page, of sorts.

Maybe we should just be thankful that we have matured as much as we have.

A counsler once told me to view issues as a third enitity at a distance. Stand shoulder to shoulder with those of a different mind set and each view the obsticle as a common problem and refrain from lableing the person as the problem as in a typical nose to nose confrontation.

tt ( this might be goofy, I'm past tired)

holybuzz

08-12-2007, 10:17 PM

Shouldn't this thread be deleted? Admin, where are you? Isn't this place supposed to be about tiling and such?

Keith

ddmoit

08-12-2007, 10:23 PM

Keith,

This thread is in the Mud Box. Almost anything goes, so long as a reasonable level of civility is maintained.

08-12-2007, 10:56 PM

Shouldn't this thread be deleted? Admin, where are you? Isn't this place supposed to be about tiling and such?Dan's correct, Keith. A fella looking for tile advice should look in the Advice forum. If he's interested in some deeper, more technical information on anything to do with tile, he should go to the Professionals' Hangout. If he wants to know about cleaning and sealing and such, we have a forum for that, too.

But the Mud Box is for anything at all that someone wants to discuss. Take a look at the description under the title on the forum home page. Don't even hafta make any sense as you can quickly see just by looking back through some of the threads. And everyone is welcome. :)

Eric Philson

08-13-2007, 04:50 AM

Well, the Civil War certainly fits into a thread with the theme "God and tragedies". I have deep roots on both sides of that conflict too. My Dad's side from the north, my mom from the South. I like to think of my own conception as part of the Mason /Dixon mending. :D

flatfloor

08-13-2007, 11:47 AM

Just keep in mind though, some of these geezers around here have first hand knowledge of the time period whereas young guys like me can only read about it in books.

CX and I did not fight in the Civil War smart ass. :mad:

We had kids in it. :D

John Corley

08-13-2007, 06:28 PM

Jim

look at you trying to be all young! We all know you were really the one who stabbed Julius Casear!

kate42

08-13-2007, 06:45 PM

John :wave:

http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/teehee.gif (http://www.millan.net) :clap2: :clap2: :rofl:

Eric Philson

08-13-2007, 08:37 PM

Jim's name in Hebrew is Moses!! :gerg:

Tom Tee

08-14-2007, 05:43 AM

Isn't there an Adam on board here?

tt

flatfloor

08-14-2007, 01:00 PM

Eric, you're going to find that there's more than one use for my staff. :D

Eric Philson

08-14-2007, 03:27 PM

:eek:

08-14-2007, 03:36 PM

> Well, the Civil War certainly fits into a thread with the theme "God and tragedies".

"Civil" War always seemed like an oxymoron to me - is there such a thing :scratch:

- DL

kate42

08-14-2007, 03:46 PM

:wave:
there's more than one use for my staff.
If he can remember :scratch: where he put it. :rofl: :D

Eric Philson

08-14-2007, 04:03 PM

"Civil" War always seemed like an oxymoron to me - is there such a thing

The true meaning of the word civil means "of or among citizens". Politeness is part of a seperate meaning, more like "among townspeople". So civil war can be accurately restated as being a citizens' war, or a war among citizens.

I'm open to leaving it as an oxymoron myself. :)

Theold--scottyb

08-15-2007, 05:52 PM

Not sure what I believe anymore. Rich get richer, poor stay poor. Hard working fella usually gets screwed. The scum bags of the world usually prosper nicely. All and all I think life really sucks.

But tell me this. Why can church going people be against rock bands and tattoos, but if you do it in the name of God, its ok? There is a guy at my gym that is all tatted up with god and church tatts. Im sure thats ok, but the average guy would get shuned.

Eric Philson

08-15-2007, 06:43 PM

but the average guy would get shuned

Hmmm, well, dunno about other places, but that guy wouldn't get shunned in my church. There's some pretty sweet body art floating about the sanctuary there on sunday morn. Of course, if someone was sportin' a picture of a bare chested lady or Satan or something of that sort, they'd be asked to cover it up or leave. There are children about the place after all. What would one expect?

Not sure what I believe anymore. Rich get richer, poor stay poor. Hard working fella usually gets screwed.

Yep, know what you mean. But now, just think a minute. You're gripin' about churchgoers, but doesn't that same hypocracy and persecution show itself in this way too? Heck, I've experienced it simply by showing up at a job and actually have the audacity to concientiously go about my work instead of shaftin' somebody by cutting corners and doing shoddy work. Yup, be too much of a do gooder on the job, and somebody's gonna getcha for it.

Ever worked for the kinda folks that have a subtle condescention about them, like they think they have to simplify their lingo so you won't feel too inferior? Kinda like being spoken too in baby talk.

Or how 'bout the slick schmuck who is highly skilled at twisting facts so that any and all problems are somebody else's fault and responsibility?

Seems to me they could all use some churchin' :nod: but yes, one can find all those same kinda' folks at church too. But maybe they need to be there more than you. :D

As for me, Im gonna keep bein' that hard workin' fella anyhow, hell or high water, just cause it's the right thing to do. I learned that at church. :tup2:

HS345

08-15-2007, 08:13 PM

Hmmm, well, dunno about other places, but that guy wouldn't get shunned in my church. There's some pretty sweet body art floating about the sanctuary there on sunday morn. Of course, if someone was sportin' a picture of a bare chested lady or Satan or something of that sort, they'd be asked to cover it up or leave. There are children about the place after all. What would one expect?
Ditto for my church.

Theold--scottyb

08-16-2007, 01:31 PM

Why cant they sport the kind of tattoo they want? So they have a tat of satan big deal??

My point was... Lets say, you go on an estimate covered in tatts. People think you are some scum bag that just got out of prison. Now go on an estimate covered in spiritual tatts.. WHOLE DIFFERENT BALL GAME NOW. It really had nothing to do with church. Im just saying its ok for god like tatts but thats it... :devil2:

Tom Tee

08-16-2007, 02:10 PM

Tats, only thought I have 'bout sum of dem beauts is how over the years I've changed my thoughts and favors.

Tat's however, are usually more durable than many marriages.

Kinda like being married with the name of your preivous girlfriend across your body. Life changes faster than tat removal. Plus w/ all the stuff shirts around, there is still a negative vibe in many circles.

But then;

One of the absolutely finest installers in the area tools up on a big hog to a estimate w/ some of the finest ink you ever saw, 10 lbs of earings, wild a$$ Mohawk, boots w/ big wallet chain and the biggest friendliest smile this side of Tony Blair. Then proceeds to win everyone over with his wonderful personality.

So a lot of it is in the manner you carry yourelf.

????? tt

Mountain Tile

08-16-2007, 03:13 PM

I think nowadays it"s about perception and how you present yourself. I got quite a few tattoos myself ( couple of dragons also) and I go to church and I"m sure there are a few that look down on me, but actually there are probably more people with tats then not. When I go on an estimate I like to wear a collared shirt, but most of all I"m honest with people and they sense that. They like that better then some slick talkin lying shyster with no tats. If I went into my church with a satan rules tattoo, the pastor would talk to me and say, hey whats up with that tattoo, if I replied I got that tat before I knew god and dont have the money to get it removed. They would take up a collection and raise the money so I could. If I replied that I did think satan rules, then they might ask me to leave, yet they would still pray for me. It"s only natural to judge some one on appearance, I"m guilty as well. Not saying it"s right, but most people do, until they get to know you. One of the things my best builder likes about me is his customers get to know me and like me, once a customer likes you things can go a lot easier for everyone. And that philosiphy works for me in every day life as well, there are two things no one can give, you can"t buy them, the only way to get them is to EARN them, those two things are, Respect and Trust!