Why can't people read, my first rant.

[Dave Gobis]

Are the schools really that bad? Do they think we make these things up? I tell ya, I don't know what is going as of late but some of these questions from"professionals" we( not the board ) have been getting are way out there. Then they want to argue with science and engineering. Makes me feel like I am not doing a very good job educatin. I remember being in Pete Johnsons office, the guy that owns Summitville Tile a few years back. He had two piles of complaints on his desk which he kept there, I guess just to irritate himself. The consumer pile was about an inch, the contractor pile was leaning over at about 6 or 7 inches. The valid complaints fit in a small file folder. Will never forget that. Just talked to a non-orange membrane manufacturer. They paid a $30,000 claim for a guy who did not seal the seams in the waterproofing and had structural damage. Another one just paid $24,000 for improper application of waterproofing in a steam room. I feel a membrane article coming soon. And, my shoulder is killing me. OK, I'm done.

[Sponsored Links]

[bbcamp]

The Sam Houston Institute of Technology has a large and vocal alumni association.

[cx]

I think part of the problem is that your question isn't entirely rhetorical, Dave. I was amazed when I left my previous life and ended up in the construction world to find out just how many people my own age actually couldn't read to a sufficient degree to understand such instructions as you are ranting about.

But now that you've had a little Prozac and calmed down some, 'splain why the companies had to pony up large dinero for product failure if written directions hadn't been followed.

Curious minds wanna know, eh? :)

[Dave Gobis]

They pay claims all the time they have nothing to do with. It is called "customer accomodation", another word for we don't want to lose the account. I never realized the extent of it till I started working with manufacturers all the time, it is a huge number and everyone does it. I am and always have been dead set against it. As things tighten up, it is happening less often. There has been a trend developing to bring in third party professionals to make the determination of failure where cost warrants it. The problem isn't always soley installation. Had a hospital where they installed a membrane over gypcrete in the second floor kitchen. It just happened to be over the MRI and ER. The kitchen equipment supplier anchored the equipment as specified ,through the tile and membrane. The MRI is trashed along with a lot of other equipment. The gyp and membrane were submitted as an alternate to a conventional mud job and saffing. So who do you blame for that one? The membrane manufacturer is providing a new membrane at no charge. Why? Contractor, Architect, Distributor satisfaction. Total cost? $240,000, not counting the membrane which is free. So what did the membrane guy have to do with it? I have dozens of these stories. They would make a great but very low volume book. But, gore stories always sell better than technical manuals. Of course, in this story, intially, it was all the tile guys fault

[Bud Cline]

Ah-h-h-ha!;)

[John K]

Hi Dave, hope the shoulder feels better. Try to stay away from the Loritabs.:D

I find what you are ranting about, very interesting. Its amazing what goes on behind the scenes.

One of the retail stores that I sub contract to, has had three Ditra failures. Schluter came out and said that there was not enough thinset on the tile. About 60 percent coverage. They said tear it out and do it over, we aren't paying for jack. So now the crews refuse to use the product. So I suppose that Schluter looks at the invoices and sees that Ten rolls have been purchased in one years time from this company and It wouldn't really benefit them to cover it. I commend them for not caving. I here the higher ups complaining about Schluter. but It is there stupid crews that screwed up. Just looking for someone else to blame.

There is my 2 cents

John K:)

[tileguytodd]

I think they musta gave you ibuprofen Dave.Ya know that stuff affects your personality.lil things become huge etc.
In fact ,the last time i was takin motrin 600,s The wife said
"if you keep takin that stuff,i am getting a motel room and your payin for it,And it aint gonna be no Days inn neither"

Needless to say i avoid ibuprofen.so, hows the shoulder Dave ?:)

[Harry]

Dave, I always knew that unwarranted claims were part of the manufacturer's PR, and you're right .... it sucks! It sends out the wrong signals and it inhibits education within the industry.

There's a lot of guys out there setting tile with the attitude that as long as weekly cheques are rolling in ..... what's the sense of learning anything more. It shows in their workmanship and it has a negative effect on every aspect of the business. :mad:

[John Bridge]

Of course, paying for unmerited claims drives up the cost of the product. I think it should be tightened up.

On the one where someone specified drilling through the membrane, why wasn't the specifier held responsible?

[Dave Gobis]

John,
When is the last time you heard an architect made or rather admitted to a mistake? The argument is always the same, " if it affected your work you should have notified us". In fact, it is a part of the standard AIA 201 contract.

John K,
I have heard this before. Schluter is an exception to the rule. They only employ people from the industry, something increasingly difficult for all manufacturers. It is also the only type of complaint I have ever heard about Ditra. Ditra is not idot proof, you need coverage. We had an earlier thread about Schluters desire to stay a professionally installed product. This is why. Backerboard is much more receptive to poor installation practices, takes a few to many years to show up. That is not the case with Ditra and remains the reason they prefer to see it professionally installed. Plus, Mr Schluter is a Master Tilesetter and has no pitty for poor installation. Yes, they have Master Tile Fixers in Germany. You need to serve two apprenticships and nine years field, then go before a group of your peers. If there ever were a product problem they would take care of it 100%. Some here will atest to a production issue that affected installation ease but not performance. They tracked and replaced every roll shipped.

[kdzgon]

Originally posted by Dave Gobis
...We had an earlier thread about Schluters desire to stay a professionally installed product...

Then IMO perhaps they should reconsider distribution through HD et al. Yet the reality is while they might like to see professional installations only, the economics are too great to ignore.

cx, I'm curious - you often reference your "previous life" - what exactly did you do "back when..."?

[Dave Gobis]

No, we had this arguement too. It is available but not stocked at HD to the irritation of a few. We have had a few good threads on this. Economics is not the consideration. HD sales of Ditra and Kerdi are miniscule and they are happy with that. If someone does order it, they have some idea of the product because they heard about it somewhere else. While I have never been told offically, I would suspect the claims potential due to lack of coverage would be huge. HD's claims policy leaves something to be desired if you are a manufacturer.

[tileguytodd]

And as i walked through our big new orange Box store,i happened to see a guy loading a cart for a custumer.Ceramic 12x12's,versabond,Hardibacker,and 3 bags of dependable floor fill.Of course i couldnt resist.i stepped in ,asked what they were working on.ended up selling them an SLC to fix the floor.The salesman asked me if i was a contractor.I asked him why he was selling tile if he didnt know anything about it.He said,"they asked if anyone had ever done tile work,i said i had put in a bathroom floor once.They said your in charge of the tile department!!

scary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jeb]

Dave,

Shoulder might be a rotator-cuff tear. Very painful - can almost drop you to your knees if someone bumps you. Should get it looked at. Avoid cortisone if possible - it's a bad thing.

Simple orthopod tests and MRI/xray will confirm or rule-out.

[Dave Gobis]

I have had 3 Doctors and a dozen xrays. Have another visit with both on Friday. Thanks for metioning it though. Went and got a new office chair and armrest for the desk so I could type. You never realize how many muscles you use and where they are until they get damaged along with your bones. Right hand hurts the left shoulder, walking hurts everything. Really like my big easy chair, wish it had a cup holder.

[Bud Cline]

"A dozen x-rays"??????

Damn...do you glow in the dark by now?:)

[Dog paws]

to you Dave and the moderators and members that participate on this site.
I'm living proof of a tile guy that did not have the whole picture. The extent of my training was,"Michael, no talk....WORK."
I stumbled into this hangout by catching a link on the DIY web site, and am ever so grateful I did. Hey where else can some one put in there joist, span and subfloor sizes and have a engineer calculate your deflection? The examples go on and on.
At any rate, not only are you folks helping the DIYer, your also helping guys like me to learn and run my business. Now if I could just figure out how to get some of my hard headed installers to listen.

Thanks:bow: :bow: :bow:

Michael

[Bud Cline]

That's kinda funny when I'm trying to figure a way to get some of my hard headed retailers to listen.

In the warehouse managers office of one retailer I work for there hangs a (write-on) calendar that lists the current jobs and the installers responsible for those jobs.

Of course my name appears there with the rest. The only difference is that someone has written below my name in quotes "WONDER BOY". It's sad really that these so-called adults can be so childish when each and every one comes to me privately for advice on their jobs from time to time.

What's even sadder is the fact that the warehouse manager allows these words to remain when a simple Kleenex would end the problem.

I am THE ONLY installer (there) that takes the time and effort and spends the money to educate himself in this industry. The others just simply tread the waters unable to understand why it is so difficult for them to keep their heads above the surface.

I can only imagine the conversations when I'm not around.

[John Bridge]

I think Laurie made a valid point. You do or you don't. And she's right about another thing, too. Economics rules. If you're in business your eye has to be on the bottom line. Else you're not in business. ;)

I think Schluter needs a bigger name. A few of us in the trades are familiar with the company and its products. Great products, great company. But if Schluter is going to command a respectable market share in this crazy business that we'll call the "flooring industry (and the tile industry)," Schluter is going to have to deal with weekend warriors. I believe this. I've believed it for a long time. When Home Depots and Lowes and Handy Dan's and Builder's Squares hit the scene, the whole ball game changed.

So Schluter needs a name like Formica, Xerox, Hardi-plank, Sherman Williams and so on. The only way you get a name like that is by dealing with the public.

I'm completely sold on Schluter, and I have infinite faith in weekend warriors. Given the right instruction and a little support, newbies can do a spectacular job. We see pictures of completed projects on a regular basis here that rival anything a pro can do. It may take someone a year to do a project, but when he or she is done, that project is top drawer.

Jeb,

We don't have anybody in our official medical department yet. Sounds as though you may be qualified. ;)

[Dog paws]

Bud

Don't get me wrong, I do have quite a few guys that I look up to and lean on for support. But like John K was talking about, it drives me crazy when folks base there installation practices on here-say vs fact.

John

Schluter sorta, kinda does have a generic name. Round these parts any piece of metal trim is referred to as a schluter.
I have gotten good support from schluter concerning my DIY sales of schluter products. I try to push the salesforce into showing Ditra as an alternative to CBU. I must admit it is a little scarry though. Dave 's got a point with the amount of time CBU will take to fail vs ditra.

[Dave Gobis]

Well, this is where I quit the orange conversation cause it goes beyond where I can comfortably go but it was part of the dinner conversation tonight. John, bring your thoughts to Surfaces or Coverings and talk to those who matter. Mr. Plank, President of Schluter USA will be there. Not sure about Mr. Schluter but unless you speak German it wouldn't be much of a conversation.anyway. By the way John, Larry Horton lost 28 pounds and promises to get me a copy of his diet book. Though I am not so sure I should go on one. The Doctor(s) said if I didn't have so much padding it would have been a lot worse so I guess there is some advantage to being cushioned. Just think, I have spent my whole life preparing for this fall!

[cx]

Ms. Laurie:

When I refer to a previous life in that context, I'm usually talking about when I was an Air Traffic Controller some twenty years back. Before your favorite President decided y'all could get along better without my kind. :)

Michael:

Ain't no problem gettin' your installers to listen. You just send you an email to flatfloor. He, in turn, will contact Vinnie. Vinnie will invite all your installers to a meeting, after which they will each vie for first place in the line to listen to anything you want them to hear so long as you agree they don't hafta go to no more meetings with Vinnie and his friends.

It's just that simple. Really it is. :D

[Rob Z]

Dave

Forget the diet book...Larry lost 28 pounds because Barb cut off the beer for a week.:D

[Dave Gobis]

Yeah, so he switched to Jack on the rocks. That's an improvment?

[John K]

Dave. Have you thought about going to a Sports Medicine Doctor?
We have Health South down here, they seem to get these Alabama football players back in action , quick.

Just a thought.:idea:

John K

[tileguytodd]

Alabama football players are just a wee bit younger than Dave, As we get a little older,we dont heal so quickly.(natures way of making you reflect on what you can no longer do at "your age")
:D :D :D

[Hobbit]

I get so tired of....... I know you've heard it too........"AGE IS JUST A STATE OF MIND".
What a bunch of horse exhaust!!:(

I am going to go out on a limb here......You may want to believe that age is a state of mind, but believe me when I say this......AGE IS A STATE OF AGE!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

:) :)

[John Bridge]

So big deal if Larry lost 28 lbs. That still leaves him around 250 I would imagine. :D

I'll be looking forward to meeting all the Schluter folks, including Herr Schluter should he decide to attend. ;)

Did Missy get married yet?

[Ron]

Hey John

Maybe kinda interesting:My father bought a tile store from Mr.Reinhardt Plank in the 80's in Toronto.And Mr.Plank's brother lives just one block east of my father.

[John Bridge]

Small world, Ron. ;)

[jeb]

Another thread?

Used to be a chiropractor in past life. Not for long. Could not stand the sales involved. A great chiropractor is worth ten orthopods; the problem is finding one. Most of them truly don't know squat.

In North Carolina - Dr. King. Don't know where or his first name but this guy impressed the hell out of me.

Ohio - Dr. King. Dr. King's ( of North Carolina ) brother. Don't know where.

Conneticut - Warren Hammer - if he's still around. Great soft-tissue doc.

----

[flatfloor]

HD sales of Ditra and Kerdi are miniscule and they are happy with that. If someone does order it, they have some idea of the product because they heard about it somewhere else. While I have never been told offically, I would suspect the claims potential due to lack of coverage would be huge. HD's claims policy leaves something to be desired if you are a manufacturer- Dave G

That is exactly why I never went after HD business. Remember the guy who was told by HD to build a sloped bed with SLC?

[John Bridge]

My thinking would be that if I can GET Home Depot business, I'll personally stand in the aisle and make sure the customers get the right scoop. :shades:

[flatfloor]

Uh-huh:rolleyes:

[Bud Cline]

...your retirement fund's gonna suffer me thinks!!!

[Dave Gobis]

Let me turn off my signature button. OK. Think about the size of the average job out of HD, the amount of claims filed due to mis-information alone, and figure out how many people you would have to hire to respond to the claims. Their approach to the market is conservative, and they are happy about it. Like any other business, some accounts aren't worth having. If all I ever did was try to be the all knowing low price leader my margins would not allow a very high level of customer service. My business plan was to make the most money with the least work like all good businessmen. As our volume grew we weeded out the high service, low profit accounts. Didn't start that road however, found out the hard way. One year we did 2.7M with 19 guys, we were everywhere on every job around. I had people screaming at me constantly. End of the year, we made 3% net profit. When I saw that margin for the abuse and hours it took I cut all the marginal employees and quit bidding everything that came in and concentrated on our long esablished accounts and the projects that were interesting and fun, if work can be fun. The end of the year we did 2.3M with 11 guys and made 9% net. We were able to provide better service and better product with more profit and had a good time doing it. Ran with that model for many years. Made a good living too.

[flatfloor]

Well said.