A Spacer question..........

[RandyL]

Gidday Lads,

I've got a question for all you fine experienced layers......I keep reading that no one uses spacers and i am curious at what point in your careers did you stop using them.
I use them because I feel more comfortable with them , yet I often adjust tiles to what I feel looks best.

Also, correct me If I'm wrong but I think John said he trains all his help right from the start to never use them. If that was right, do they get the hang of it fairly quickly? I keep thinking as I get better then I'll start to just "eye" my work.
I'm just a big grout line freak....as far as I'm concerned if the lines don't "line" then the job could have been done better.

All feedback appreciated.
:stick:

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[tileguytodd]

would you rather have stright and perfect grout lines between every tile,or a straight floor??What do you do when a tile you try to set is larger than the one in front of it??Tiles vary in size,i dont like it nobody likes it but it is a fact of life and it isnt going to get any better soon. Laying to a chalkline (or straightedge) is the best way to insure a straight floor.yes your groutlines will vary according more to the size differances in tile than to your eye work.I would love to see you try to lay a 2000 s/f floor of 6x6 metro quarry tile with spacers.especially with a ll the lil winged out corners that particular quarry is famous for.

Use a chalkline,buy some special line straightening grout(its a special order) and set your tile. :D :D :D

[Bud Cline]

"John trains his help"???????
John doesn't have any help.
Never has.
After Albert taught John everything he knows John kept him around 'cause he felt sorry for him.:)

I never stopped using spacers 'cause I never started.:) You'd be surprised how easy it is without those things, they are little troublemakers most of the time and very time consuming. :)

Eye-in just one job to a chalk line and see what you think. :shades:

[JC]

I am starting to use grids, but I must say I have no problem staying straight and true with spacers, even really big areas with half decent tile. I wish I had some pics of this one job I did that was about 120x50 ft. long to show how striaght it was with spacers, three rooms like that they all were nice and straight I am sure they could have been twice as big with no problems.

Sometimes the tile is very rough but as long as the lines are nice and straight the un-eveness is going to happen regardless of how you do it. It is how you use the spacers....loosely

I used grids on this floor(actually I did another room but this is the only pic I have of the tile to show) and I do think it helped a good bit due to this tile bieng so out of square,crooked,warped. Spacers would have not helped anything with this stuff and probably cuased even more trouble..In fact I know I would have ran into trouble with spacers. I could barely even stay on my lines with this stuff....but the fact that the architect specified 1/8 grout lines with this tile (gee thanks!) created most of the problem I think....the grout widths varied from almost butted together(beveled egde) to 1/4 when I was done...I don't think there is anything I could have done due to the tile bieng so bad and trying to get an 1/8 inch joint....but hey the architects are the experts ....right? Also notice in the pic the drywall and the...mm-m-m-m-m-m-Mastic. He did specified type 1 so apparently he must be very concerned with quality.....uh huh....r-i-g-h-t .
It had that rustic look if you will...yea thats it.
Lines were un-even as **** but they were straight.

Still have not had a chance to try it on a normal job to see if I can keep the lines as clean as with spacers....I have a pretty good eye so I hope it don't take me very long to get it down. Whats the learning curve on something like this?


Another thing if you see anything sketchy in this photo that was'nt me that was the other guys....at least I hope it's not me , my stuff is on the left except for right up against the jamb....the way it was layed out was as specified I might have done things a little differantly if it were me.
...amazing the stuff guys get away with in commercial work. I was'nt totally happy with my stuff that much either but considering......
I really don't see myself doing much work with this outfit in the future.

http://bal.ifloor.com/files/45/og1.jpg

[John Bridge]

That's a very nice job, JC, and I complimented you on the other thread where you posted the picture.

This whole argument about spacers vs. chalklines is ludicrous. Those of you who do not know how to lay out floors with chalklines, using the basic principles of plane geometry, need to get into a little book learnin'. If you had been in the trade 30 years ago (as I was) there would have been no question about knowing layout. If you didn't know how to do it, you would remain a workman. If you knew how to do it, you would have been promoted to foreman or leadman. That's just how it is. So please don't argue about that.

A comparison can be made to workmen who don't know how to read blueprints. They may be fine workmen, but that's all they will ever be. The folks who end up becoming foremen and supers are the ones who can read, understand and layout the plans on the floor and wall.

I employ the grid system for every job. It doesn' t matter what kind of tile it is -- anything from glazed porcelain to Saltillo -- the grid layout is exactly the same. I can lay out a whole house with ten different rooms, including hallways with ells in them, and know exactly how the wall cuts are going to look in the furthest corner of the most remote closet. That's just how it's supposed to be, guys. :)

[JC]

Well if that the way it has to be then thats the way it has to be.
I am all for any thing that speeds the job up and does'nt skimp on quality...why not. If John can do it can't be that hard. j/k

[John Bridge]

:D

[Bud Cline]

JC,

I have done a whole house tile job where we layed out the entire job; multiple rooms, closets, around corners and cabinets, in and out of nooks and crannies then began laying tile in three different rooms at the same time.

I'll admit I sweated bullets for a while but we completed the job in record time and without a hitch. I took the extra money and went to the mountains for a week.:)

[JC]

That's what I like to hear. I think for the most part the quality of my work is up to snuff but I just need to be alot faster then I am. Thx guys

[tileguytodd]

I'll tell you the same thing i tell all my helpers JC.First get good.The speed will come naturally.Lil things you pick up for tips will make a differance.

[John Bridge]

I agree. The guys who are speedy right off the bat are usually very sloppy. Accuracy in this business is much more important. Speed comes later, and for some of us it never comes at all. :D

[Bri]

Bud...3 different areas and they lined up? WOW! :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

[JC]

Oh don't worry about that with me...I have the "play around with it till it looks perfect" part down pretty good...always been a perfectionist and I do have to force myself sometimes from bieng too picky....Thats most of the reason I am so slow... I am the guy that spends 4-5 days on a jaccuzzi deck remember..I do alot of messing around with the stuff. That kinda stuff will get faster with more practice but some good tips from experienced proffesionals would also help save me some time also.

You do have to walk before you can run or you will start tripping over yourself...and it don't matter how fast you did the job if you don't get paid!

[Bud Cline]

I must admit that when I get into a deal like that one, I do have one helluva layout guy that works from time to time. He's from Seattle. When we did the High School commons a few years ago we started in four locations, 5000 ft2.

[Sonnie Layne]

so what happens if you start in a critical area to get it right... say the mid-line down a gally kitchen and work your way back to the entry to a MBR and you've got small cut tiles? do you then go back to the start and fudge everything over?

There is a bit of math involved and I think that's where the grids come in handy. You've got definitive figures to map the job out with. No need to worry over whether that one grout line is gonna start growin' on ya', because it can't.

I've used layout sticks, or story-poles on some jobs, but it's mostly to get a vision of how things are gonna finish out. Some marks on the floor, snap a couple lines and measure as I go. JB and Bud's methods are dead-on, I've never had the opportunity to lay that complicated an area without having the advantage of a "break" in the flooring products.

[John Bridge]

I can't imagine doing it any other way. The floor depicted below was over 1300 feet -- about ten rooms, including laundry, two bathrooms, a half-bath, master bedroom, living room, kitchen and dining room. Plus an entry and several closets, all connected. How in the world would anyone start out somewhere and expect to meet himself after tiling through three rooms with no line of sight through them?

[tileguytodd]

Shoulda come up for the Cty garage i just finished sonnie. 2000 s/f +base of 6x6 Quarry.
Main hall to diamond hub split 4 ways to hallway left,locker room,shower room. continue down to hallway lft ,locker room,shower room (mens).continue down to right turn lunchroom.forward to entry. from front entry in and left to office.

Now,try doing this without throwing all your tools at the county employees who are " just curious"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[tileguytodd]

Oh sure, He's got pictures :D :D :D

[kdzgon]

It's a good thing I'm only a DIYer... if the room is not square (and of course they never are), I usually mess up snapping one of my lines (and they don't erase all that well), then they seem to wear off too quickly (one of the problems with not being fast yet) and I can't seem to get the hang of applying thinset in those pretty squares and rectangles like many of you all seem to do so well. I use the grid lines, but have always used the spacers as well. Next job, I'm takin' off those training wheels! :D

[Sonnie Layne]

don't worry over it, Laurie... those lines are just there to make everyone think you understand what Pythagoreus was thinking about when he had too much wine one night in the tavern. At least in those days they drank water with their wine ;)

[John Bridge]

The Pythagorean Theorem is about the only one I remember. Without old Pythy, we'd all be up a creek. :D

[JC]

I don't think Pythy invented it. I think he was just the one who got credit for it since hes the first one who we found had it written down.

Don't forget there were many very complex architectural structures before the time of pythy and it is hard to imagine that those earlier builders did not know of it before that time.

[John Bridge]

JC,

Just give me a name, okay? If it wasn't Pythy, who the hell was it? Geez. ;)


Next you're gonna tell me Archemedes wasn't married to Eureka. ;)

[Sonnie Layne]

well, there could have been a difference between measuring diagonals and determining the hypopoteneuse. I guess...

[JC]

Ok then Pythy it is.


Hehe...Married to Eurika???..hehe... that does'nt "float" John

[kdzgon]

t'ain't the measuring - it's the tautness of the line, or the amt of chaulk, etc. Same result, though...extra lines :D

no names, John, but a quote for you: "...Although the theorem, now known as Pythagoras's theorem, was known to the Babylonians 1000 years earlier [Pythagoras] may have been the first to prove it...."

[John Bridge]

You've got me, Laurie. :) Thanks for sticking up for old Pythy, though. ;)

I'm tellin' ya. I remember most of the exercises from Geometry. I know how to dissect lines into equal segments and bisect them too, make symmetric polygons and figure the areas of various objects -- even their volumes, but I don't remember any of the theorems save that rendered by old Pythagoras. What's in a name?
:D