Anyone want to discuss Kevin Tillman's letter?

[Shaughnn]

Posted on Oct 19, 2006

A note about who Kevin Tillman is: Kevin Tillman joined the Army with his brother Pat in 2002, and they served together in Iraq and Afghanistan. Pat was killed in Afghanistan on April 22, 2004. Kevin, who was discharged in 2005.

By Kevin Tillman

It is Pat’s birthday on November 6, and elections are the day after. It gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we joined the military. He spoke about the risks with signing the papers. How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and the American people. How we could be thrown in a direction not of our volition. How fighting as a soldier would leave us without a voice… until we got out.

Much has happened since we handed over our voice:

Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can’t be called a civil war even though it is. Something like that.



Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.

Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not charging them with anything, secretly torturing them. Somehow that overt policy of torture became the fault of a few “bad apples” in the military.

Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a five-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send it overseas, or slapping stickers on cars, or lobbying Congress for an extra pad in a helmet. It’s interesting that a soldier on his third or fourth tour should care about a drawing from a five-year-old; or a faded sticker on a car as his friends die around him; or an extra pad in a helmet, as if it will protect him when an IED throws his vehicle 50 feet into the air as his body comes apart and his skin melts to the seat.

Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes.

Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.

Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.

Somehow faking character, virtue and strength is tolerated.

Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated.

Somehow the death of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people is tolerated.

Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is tolerated.

Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country safe.

Somehow torture is tolerated.

Somehow lying is tolerated.

Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense.

Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world.

Somehow a narrative is more important than reality.

Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.

Somehow the most reasonable, trusted and respected country in the world has become one of the most irrational, belligerent, feared, and distrusted countries in the world.

Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance.

Somehow the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous, malicious criminals are still in charge of this country.

Somehow this is tolerated.

Somehow nobody is accountable for this.

In a democracy, the policy of the leaders is the policy of the people. So don’t be shocked when our grandkids bury much of this generation as traitors to the nation, to the world and to humanity. Most likely, they will come to know that “somehow” was nurtured by fear, insecurity and indifference, leaving the country vulnerable to unchecked, unchallenged parasites.

Luckily this country is still a democracy. People still have a voice. People still can take action. It can start after Pat’s birthday.

Brother and Friend of Pat Tillman,

Kevin Tillman

*****
Pat Tillman (left) and his brother Kevin stand in front of a Chinook helicopter in Saudi Arabia before their tour of duty as Army Rangers in Iraq in 2003.
*****

[Sponsored Links]

[Tool Guy - Kg]

No disrespect to the Tillman brothers is meant by what I'm about to say. They have my utmost respect. :usflag: I'll pray for Kevin and Pat's surviving family members.







Sounds to me that "Somehow" they signed-on to be in the military without realizing what it meant.

[Hamilton]

This guy struck a note with me. Ive never seen this before. thanx shaugnn.
I can imagine why you posted this but id just like to say that everything
stated hereign has most likely been going on for decades, and this is no new
form of government. I love America, Im proud of my brothers and sisters,
but there are always those bad seeds..... oh yeah we call them our leaders.

[jgleason]

I'll withhold comment until there is confirmation that this was really written by Kevin Tillman. Snopes has a status of undetermined as of this moment...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/tillman.asp

Color me cynical, but my guess is that Kevin Tillman had nothing to do with this item making the rounds.

[Hamilton]

Are you putting this up to the urban legend status Joe?

[Tool Guy - Kg]

Aw man. This might be a hoax? I hope not, 'cause that would piss my off.

[jgleason]

I'm always leery of items like this as they often turn out to be inaccurate. It appears to be a true posting at truthdig.com and has been picked up by various news sites across the country. So, although Snopes still has it listed as undetermined, it probably was written by Kevin Tillman. I disagree with him on most points raised in the article. We'll see what happens on the 7th, eh?

[Shaughnn]

Jack,
I posted it because I think that preserving an open dialog on ALL THINGS makes us better citizens and better people. We can disagree on many things and still be united by our community. But when we disagree and stop listening to other voices is when we devolve into warring clans and xenophobic mobs.
Yes, the letter is scathing in it's criticism. I also don't think it's written very well. But it's also extremely hopeful for the future of democracy in America in the face of that bitter disappointment and I think that's what's most important to me.
Thanks for checking Snopes, Joe. I've got a feeling that this one will not get debunked though.
Sincerely,
Shaughnn

[sgrandjean]

Shaughnn,
Thanks for posting this. I saw it the other day. While I do disagree with much of the letter, I'll echo your comments that exposure to different viewpoints makes each of us a better citizen.
Cheers.

[jgleason]

I posted it because I think that preserving an open dialog on ALL THINGS makes us better citizens and better people.
I couldn't agree more.

Yes, the letter is scathing in it's criticism. I also don't think it's written very well.
I think much of the criticism is misplaced and agree that it is written poorly.

Thanks for checking Snopes, Joe. I've got a feeling that this one will not get debunked though.
No problem and I believe you are right.

[Shaughnn]

Kurt,
Read the letter again. They understood exactly what it meant to be a soldier. Kevin says that he and Pat had a very serious discussion about that before they both enlisted. It's also evident that Kevin felt that he was not free to express himself or speak against the war until his enlistment was up and he was no longer an active soldier.
If you've been paying attention, there has been a long procession of military brass who have shared the same sense of duty and honor and only spoken out against the war after they have hung up their stars and become civilians again. Kevin's letter isn't unique but it is relevant as he and his brother were celebrated by this administration and used as posterboys and propaganda, even after Pat's death and the attempted whitewashing of it. During that time, though it's appearant now that both had reservations about "the war" but that they were both commited to being "soldiers for America" and suppressing their own "voices" for the sake of the services they had joined.
Shaughnn

[flatfloor]

Joe, I immediately had the same doubts. Still do.

[LGB]

I'm so tired of all this bs about lying. If Bush was not telling the truth neither were the French, British, Russians,Germans,Chinese, Isralies, shall I go on? Bill Clinton, Al Gore....and so on and so on. If one believes what one says and it turns out to be wrong is it a lie? I can tell you one thing for sure. Saddam and his thugs will not threaten the world with WMDs.

[Davestone]

Shaughnn you posted this because it's in line with your way of thinking,that's all.Every soldier has doubts, and reaches a point of despair where he wonders (what's it all for, is it worth it?),The letter could very well be real, i can imagine the frustration and resentment one would feel if something happened to your brother.I'm surprised Shaughnn, you never post any info on the positive things the troops are involved with...the high re-enlistment rate of the Marines,the iraqi's who were released from prisons and certain death, the lack of any more terrorist attacks here, and on the other hand, the torturous murders the terrorists inflicted on the G.I.'s they captured awhile back.Not many people condemning any of the atrocities done against the troops, seems like...they barely make the papers. :shrug: :usflag:

[davem]

Talk about a list of Democrat talking points. Sheesh. If it's really written by this soldier, thanks for your service, and I respect your right to have a very cynical view of America and see the bad side of everything American. You must be able to log on to moveon.org and other hate America sites from where you are to have generated such a punchlist.

If it's not written by this soldier, shame on the person who started it.

[flatfloor]

Shaughnn, didn't you have any doubts about the authenticity of this letter or as Dave said it just fit with your position. If Joe hadn't beat me to it I was immediately headed for Snopes.

[Davestone]

My name's not Leon! :D

[flatfloor]

I just realized what I did and was going to edit it. Sorry Pete. :D

[Davestone]

That tears it! :moon:

[jgleason]

As of now, it appears to be genuine. Snopes still says undetermined but from the other sites that picked this up and no denial I believe it is the real thing.

I share DaveM's sentiments on this for the most part.

As far as the whole "Bush Lied" crowd - not much intelligent thought coming from those that can only seem to chant slogans.

Congress authorized the war. If some members of Congress feel that they were lied to by the evil mastermind George Bush, well....some people just can't be helped.

[Tool Guy - Kg]

Hurting your fellow man and not playing by the rules has been going on since the beginning of time. No barriers of politics or the military has ever gotten in the way of that. Unfortunately, everyday all over the world we treat each other the same way. Standing on the gravestone of your brother with a letter that makes it seem like he died in vain (Kevin repeated more than 20 times: "Somehow this and that are allowed to happen") leads me believe that he doesn’t “get it”.

Shaughnn, I'll say that I don't tend to agree with your political beliefs and typically steer clear of your threads of such. But this one was a bit too much for me so I spoke up...If only for a sentence. If you've been paying attention...:wtf: I read it and know what I said. :) You are free to believe what you want and I have no delusions that anyone could sway your ways. So for that reason I've kept this simple and ask that you don't pull me into the discussion any further.

[jvcstone]

Well, once again our friend Shaughnn has attempted to get a dialogue started, but as usual, it has drifted off into repetition of common sound bites from both sides.

I'm beginning to suspect that rational and reasonable dialogue is no longer possible considering the current bi-polar nature of the country. Black or white, right or wrong, for us or against us. What in the world has happened to people wanting to speak from the middle? Guess the media has finally shut them up, since they seem to get pounded from both sides. I suppose this is the natural end result of such an entrenched two party system. Our national government is in desperate need of fixing.

Tillman's letter speaks to the feelings that a lot of returning vets have. I get the opportunity to listen to them twice a week. So many young men (and women) who were so gung-ho at the start of this adventure have been burnt to a crisp mentally and emotionally. Moral suffers when your on your third or forth rotation, and what you see on the ground is getting worst--not better. It doesn't really matter what the reason du jour for invading Iraq is, the fact that a group of guys with no combat experience amongst them decided that they knew what they were doing, and were not willing to listen to more experienced voices. History does tend to repeat itself, and this right -to -life president has more blood on his hands than any president since LBJ and Nixon.

The troops coming home and not re-upping ( Dave failed to mention the hugh re-enlistment bonuses that are being paid--6 figures in some cases), are really no different from my generation. Some remained positive, believing in the rightness of the war, and never gave it another thought. Some came home angry at their government and joined in the protests. The VVAW had a fairly large membership. But most just faded into life again, dealing with the scars the best they could. Now thirty + years later, the nightmares, the anger, the constant vigilance, have come back to haunt tens of thousands of veterans who should be enjoying their golden years. Not to mention the serious heath issues many have because of the chemical warfare we visited on Vietnam. We as a nation have no right to sit in moral judgement of any other "regime" since most are just following our lead.

And LGB , all those countries did believe that Saddam had those weapons. That's what he wanted the world to believe. However England (out of your list) is the only one that decided to tag along on GW"s adventure, and most were really upset (and still are) with us for doing it.

I mentioned earlier that our government is in need of fixing. I've been doing a lot of thinking along those lines, so stay tuned -- this old rock guy might be posting up a pipe dream. :crazy:

JVC

[Splinter]

Well, once again our friend Shaughnn has attempted to get a dialogue started, but as usual, it has drifted off into repetition of common sound bites from both sides.
I'm beginning to suspect that rational and reasonable dialogue is no longer possible considering the current bi-polar nature of the country. Black or white, right or wrong, for us or against us. What in the world has happened to people wanting to speak from the middle?


What he said... :clap2:

Thanks for posting Shaughnn.. Im sorry I cant add any more to the discussion, I just wanted to :bang: after I participated in the last thread like this. Im better off :x:

[Shaughnn]

Wow, Stoneman. You just called me a liar, didn't you?
Davestone wrote:
Shaughnn you posted this because it's in line with your way of thinking,that's all.
That kinda sucks 'cause that's a line I don't often let people cross. For the sake of the forum, I'll bow out now.
Shaughnn

[jvcstone]

Wow, Stoneman. You just called me a liar, didn't you?

Shaughnn--- not sure how you got this out of my post. It certainly was not my intention. In fact, I rather enjoy your attempts to provoke us into thinking. If something in my post offended you, I truly apologize.

JVC

[John Corley]

JVC
I think Shaughnn was refering to Davestone not yourself.

I'm not going to get in on this one.

Sounds like it's over anyway. :shake:

[Scooter]

I'm the forum's switch hitter. I totally supported President Bush and the Iraq war because it was clear to me that either Sadaam was lying or George Bush was. I had to believe our President, because we are the good guys and our Presidents don't lie.

Its a comment on our President that Sadaam was telling the truth and George W. Bush lied to the American People and went to war on cooked books. The French tried to tell us there were no WMD.

Moreover, it is painfully clear that we have completely screwed up that country, 3,000 American boys, and the mission through an idiot for a Commander in Chief and bigger moron as Secy of Defense. We look like complete idiots to whole world. The Mid East landscape and power structure will never be the same, with Iran (with Nukes) will now be the 800lb gorilla, and we don't need friggin weapons inspectors to figure this out. Meanwhile our erstwhile President is stuck in reverse, doing nothing to stop Iran. Our boys continue to die at an increased rate, and Bush does nothing.

Bush would rather pose for Mission Accomplished photo ops, call anyone who disagrees with him as a traitor, and debate torturing people then actually helping our boys.

Meanwhile none of the die hard conservatives do anything to support our troops other than blow their pie hole.

As a former Viet Nam Vet, who sends out 3-4 packages a week to complete strangers, I am mortified by the letters we get from our kids. No PX, crappy food, non-existent equipment, stuff in poor repair, no vests, and lack of training. There is a full company in an Iraq City, that begged me for candy because they can't get it there, along with everything else. So the wife and I popped for $150 worth of candy spending $75 on postage. Meanwhile Haliburton is paid $10 per bottle of water that costs them 50 cents and Cheney gets rich. And a full company of soldiers can't get simple candy.

Even Rush Limbaugh called for abandoning the Iraqi cities this week. Not quite "cut and run" and it sounded more like "cut and walk."

Meanwhile we "stay the course." I am sick to death of this situation to the point of wanting to vomit when I read the letters we get. No one wants to re-enlist, because this mission is so screwed up it is beyond fixing. Mr. Tillman's letter is accurate and dead on--I couldn't agree more, and it should have been said 2 years ago. It is also an embarrassment how the Pentagon hid the true cause of his brother death (for a full year), so they could milk his sacrifice for politcal reasons and recruiting goals.

As a shameless plug, I will say that my group, "Books for Soldiers" is trying to raise enough money to send 6,000 Christmas packages to our boys in uniform. Go to Books for Soldiers dot com, and you can pay pal $5-20. We did about 4,000 last year. Tell them Scooter sent you.

[Davestone]

How did you figure i called you a liar?If i wanted to call you a liar i would.I don't usually do that,you've known me long enough,we've certainly had our arguments, but rarely do i stoop to that..what i did say was, you posted it cause it reflects your emotion, and sentiment about the war, that's all. ;)

[flatfloor]

I think you're being overly sensitive Shaughnn. I echoed Dave's thought and I certainly had no intention of calling you a liar. :)

[Theold--scottyb]

www.packagesfromhome.org


A friend of mine is really involved with this group.

[Scooter]

Books for Soldiers is a little different--we are totally apolitical, not a big rah rah group for the US Government--just for the soldiers.

Second, our volunteers actually correspond with the troops, and so can you. Its not give money and we do all the rest kinda group. Yes, they'll take your money but 90% of the support is done by people like you and me who send packages and post what they've sent. Letters are then sent by the soldiers to the volunteer which is really heart warming. Its a feel good moment.

And as a Vet, I know EXACTLY what to send.

[Theold--scottyb]

My dad never made it back from Viet nam. I was 1 when he died. I think it made it easier growing up because I never knew him.. But I digress..

Carry on with the political front..

[Shaughnn]

Hi all,
I'd like to appologize here. I misunderstood the intent of Dave's comment and reacted poorly. I suppose discussing it with him before making my own accusation would have been the mature thing to do, but I can't ALWAYS be the level-headed one in the room. :)
Carry on,
Shaughnn :fim:

[Eugenius]

Which branch of the service did you serve in, Shaughnn?

[jgleason]

Whether anyone has served or not doesn't change anyone's rights to express their opinions on the war. If you have served, I salute you. :usflag: Doesn't mean I have to agree with your position though, whether it be for the war or against. :suspect:

[Scooter]

Every Citizen gets to vote--not just military. You don't even have to be smart to vote.

[Shaughnn]

Eugenius,
I've said before that I have not served in any branch of the armed forces. I *nearly* signed on to the Navy, but then I learned that they wanted to send me off to school to learn Russian and stick me in a can at the bottom of the Bering Straits for 9 months at a time, so I decided against it. The closest I ever came was a few years as a Sea Explorer, until I knocked my Bosun in the nose for being a little too cock-sure. Stripped out of my jumper on the spot and walked home in my tighties. :)
However, I've voted in every election since I became eligible in 1985. I take my civic responsibility very seriously and I believe 100% in the humanity and nobility of this country and the principles which it is founded upon. It is precisely for those reasons that I insist on asking probing questions and of holding ALL elected officials up to close scrutiny.
The arguement that "all politicians lie" is repulsive to me. As citizens, it is our responsibility to hold them ALL accountable and to remove any who are found to betray that great trust. Anyone who sits on their butt and just accepts corruption as "status quo" rather than doing something about it is unpatriotic, in my mind. If you aren't enraged by the institutionalized deception that is "spin" then you aren't patriotic. It takes work to be a patriot. And being a patriot is much much more than slapping a bumper sticker on your car or even putting on a uniform. It's a level of commitment.
If you are asking, Eugenious, if I've earned the right to be critical I'm gonna have to say that I have.
Shaughnn

[John Bridge]

Lets not get personal again. I'll shut this thread down if we can't keep it on an impersonal basis. Nobody's patriotism is at stake here. :)

[Theold--scottyb]

I still believe that ALL politicians tell you what you want to hear, then change once in office..

[Eugenius]

John B., you're like 'Daddy' driving the car. You look over your shoulder at us kids fighting in the back seat, point your finger and announce, " If ya'll don't quit that fightin' an' shet up, I'm pullin' over!" You're a good 'Daddy' John.
Just remember that families fight. Don't drive off and leave any of us standing on the side of the road. (nameley, me)

Shaugnn, you haven't "earned" the 'right' to be critical of our government and neither have I. We have been granted that right since the Revolutionary War and the Declarition of Independence to this day by common men like you and I who sacrificed their lives for the following generation. Our country was founded and forged in war. Unfortunately, survival involves war. I hate war.

[Shaughnn]

Eugenius,
I disagree. This country was not *founded* in war, it was founded in lofty principles and the progression of critical thought. War was the catalyst which brought about the change, but there is nothing in our founding documents which demands that we wage war for national preservation.
A war to break the yoke of British sovereignty was neccessary. A war to repel the fascist reign of Hitler was necessary. But the Spanish-American war was not neccessary, but a fabrication by yellow-journalists and American business interests. The Viet Nam war was not neccessary, but a contrived intervention to protect American business interests. And our presence in Iraq was not neccessary. You draw the parrallel.
I can argue that sexual intercourse is neccessary for the continuation of the Human species. But rape is not justified by that arguement and neither is war warranted in all conflicts.
Shaughnn

[Scooter]

Actually, I have some fond memories of war.

We went whoring every month after pay day, got really good drugs, and the US Government supplied us with plenty of beer.

Now I realize I get can all those in my neighborhood now, but not at the prices we paid in 1969.

[Eugenius]

Correct me if I'm wrong and I'm sure you will, Shauggn.(ima poet) I've always thought that our country was *founded* by Puritans seeking religious freedom. They were Christians fleeing persecution in native England. We can only imagine the unimaginable hardships they were willing to endure at sea with no guarantee that they would ever see 'tierra firme' again. Ships with sails...roaring winds and mountainous waves...vomiting, screaming, crying, praying below deck... becalmed seas...reading of Scripture and the dead dropped overboard...all for religious freedom. Christians. That's the 'flag' that was planted at Plymouth Rock. That's how we were founded.

Bill Moyers recently hosted a PBS series, "Faith and Reason". The premise was that he was talking to 'smart people', not grocers, mechanics and hairdressers but to physicists, doctors and so on. One of the intelligentsia was a smart guy in Endland. He went on about how England and most of Europe had gotten beyond faith and religion and left God behind and how America was just lagging behind. John Lennon would have been proud.(Imagine)

Tony Blair was recently described in the mainstream media as the Christian leader of a pagan nation.

Perhaps that without really knowing what they were doing but
at the time firmly believing that they were being led by God, the Puritans forsook all they had and set sail for a mystical shore.

That's how America was *founded*

[jvcstone]

Actually, the plymouth company was not the first to settle in America. In fact, it was not the first English settlement, and the Spanish and French, and the Dutch were here for their own purposes.

JVC

[Steven Hauser]

:nod: Much as I'm surprised by saying this and OMG I agree with Shaughnn and JVC here. Holy Moly :gerg: didn't think that would ever happen.:D
Eugenious you have misinterpreted a few things. Several migrations to North America have happened over the last 15000 years or so. So, I wouldn't be too quick to aggrandize only one small colony. ;)

[Scooter]

Actually, it was the Vikings that came first.

The Vikings, of course, worship Norse and Celtic Gods, of which there are many.

Being Irish, I, of course, worship Celtic Gods. It is a terrific religion. There are no structures or buildings, our Priests don't molest kids, our Priests can be either a man or woman or married or single or gay it doesn't matter, and beer is a big part of the sacrament. There's no set day to worship and no tithings. We don't get mixed up in politics, and keep church and state separate.

So may I say that I am personally lobbying for Congress to change the dollar bill to read:

"In Cocidius We Trust"

[Shaughnn]

Steven,
:eek: I find that hard to believe also. :D

Scooter,
Hate to break your bubble so close to Samhain but archaeologists have found Chinese anchors (stone rings carved with Chinese characters) that pre-date the Viking arrival. These anchors have been found all along the Pacific coastline, from Southern California to Argentina. I think the date decided on for the SoCal anchor was mid-13th century.
And then we have the tin mines along the Atlantic coast that are supposed to be identical to Phoenician tin mines in Ireland, from just before the time of Christ. At least that's what read.
Shaughnn

[jvcstone]

And all of those visitors met up with the folks who came over during those glacial periods 12,000 and 20,000 yrs ago. Compared to them, every one else is an illegal immigrant. :yeah:

JVC

[John Corley]

JVC :goodpost:

[flatfloor]

And then we have the tin mines along the Atlantic coast that are supposed to be identical to Phoenician tin mines in Ireland

Just proves what I've been saying all along. St Brendan the Boisterous discovered the New World. Yes indeed he did. :nod:

[Shaughnn]

Jim,
Those were Phoenician tin mines. The Irish were unfortuneately their slaves at the time. The Phoenicians used the tin in the fabrication of Bronze, which was a tightly guarded secret at the time. Bronze being the material of the Age, it was very important that they limited the number of peoples who had access to tin.
Shaughnn

[jjwq8]

Eugenius
The only Christian thing about Tony Blair is the imperitive that he be crucified.

[flatfloor]

Shaughnn, the Phoenicians only leased the mines. That had nothing to with the fact that St Brendan the Boisterous discovered the new world or not. Next I suppose you'll tell me he sailed in a tin boat. Another example of leftist Liberals twisting history to suit their agenda. :blah:

[jjwq8]

Of course he sailed in a tin boat. And to save weight he carried no anchor. Instead, when he reached his destination he simply pulled out the plug.

[flatfloor]

Jeremy, that's ridiculous. He bought a round trip ticket. :bonk:

[jjwq8]

From Galway Bay no doubt?