best choice for harwood

[kalford]

Hey Sonnie...anybody,
I'm going to Fl. in Oct. to see my folks,take the kids to Disney and install some tile for them.Part of the job they want Hardwood,like the hall and dining room.The house is at least 30 years old on a slab.What would be the best choice and who carries it? They have dark cherry molding and want a darker than usual wood for the floor.

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[Bud Cline]

Take a look at the pre-engineered flooring products.

[cx]

Keith:
Two manufacturers that spring to mind are Shaw and Columbia. Both make a prefinished, full thickness, wood flooring (it's all in center matched "shorts") that they alledge can be glued directly to the slab with their proprietary cement.

If that's too thick for your application, many manufacturers make a prefinished, laminated wood flooring that they also say can be directly glued down, and are only about 3/8 inch thick. The better ones have a veneer layer thick enough for one full refinish if ever needed. I have had only one of these floors installed that way, and have to admit, it looked pretty good. Saw it about three years later and it still looked good.

My opinion; worth price charged.

[kalford]

That sounds like what we need.It will butt to the tile so 3/8" will be the thickest I would want.Mannington has some too.Gonna take a look at it.
Thanks guys

[Bud Cline]

Keith,

On concrete obviously the flooring will have to be glued, in this case a moisture test is of great importance. You could verify what needs to be done with a local supplier. Not all slabs are appropiate for glued flooring.

[kalford]

That may be of more concern here than you realize.Their house is located only yards from the St.Johns River and the watertable is about 2' deep.......less in places.Could be a good candidate for a floating floor.

[John Bridge]

I was just about to say what Bud just said. I don't know from beans about wood floors, but I know a lot about damp slabs. I think Florida is about like Houston -- sea of muck, no rock -- damp. Moisture barriers are a joke -- 6 mil poly poked full of holes before and during the pour. Slabs poured damn near in the ground -- little rise from grade. When they say slab on grade, they mean on grade, not much above.

[JC]

My experience installing Mannington hardwoods is not a good one I found there stuff to be well...not very good.

I would recommend the engineered 5/16 myself. They do have solid 5/16 out there in fact I am installing a kithen with it tommorow (bruce naturals) but the solid expands and contracts much more than the laminated engineered does so if moisture is a concern try to stay away if you can. Thin wood like that expanding and contracting REALLY moves let me just tell you. I already warned this guy that come mid-winter when it gets dryer inside(PA) he will be almost able to slide a dime into each crack!!Thats alot considering there only less than 2" wide. Did probably 10 jobs with this wood and Ive seen them do it.

Now the glue you will be using is probably going to be a urethane based glue that allows for expansion(better ones are more rubbery). And one of the charecteristics of urethane is it does not like to bond to any moisture(after it dries it is ok though). This includes portland patches so they must be allowed to cure fully first(ardex says 16 hours for SD-F).

Hartco has some nice stuff with a real hard finish on it, I would stay away from Bruce myself(soft).Theres a few really good brands out there.

Very important to acclimate it correctly the longer the better. If not then it can really suck coz your sliding them together with glue and it can get really messy and very irritating if they don't go right together.

Ill will be stapling them down tommorow I prefer that to glueing when I can do it..faster and cleaner..it a cute looking little stapler you would like it. But all those narrow boards take forever to rack and stack.

In this case the Kitchen is half wood and half concrete. Today I preped the concrete (built it up with SD-F) and then it gets 1/4 AC over the whole floor)over the concrete also with the wood via (you guess it hardwood glue to bond the ply to the concrete) so it will be fun.

[kalford]

Thanks JC,
Lot of useful info there.I will pass that along to my Dad so he'll know what to look for.I saw a guy installing wood and he had a latex adhesive...came in a black 5gal.bucket with yellow writing on it....started with a "B" I think.Any idea what the name of that would be?

[Sonnie Layne]

So far as engineered laminates go, I like Robbins flooring. Available in solid or engineered. Their premium line will accept 4 professional sandings. A 25 year warranty on the factory finish. Many different species will be available to you with engineered flooring vs. solids. Also they are more dimensionally stable, and are rated to be installed at or below grade. Of course the moisture test is necessary, I'm no so sure that there aren't adhesives that will work even there. http://www.fastfloors.com could be a place to start shopping.

good luck

[LDavis]

Keith,

I agree with JC and Sonnie, the engineered (3-ply & 5-ply) products are more stable in terms of expansion/contraction.


There are numerous latex-based wood adhesives out there, but I wouldn't use one. They are easier to spread and cleanup, but they do not "grab/hold" as well as the urethanes. Most of my experience is with the Bosticks line of urethane wood adhesives. Spreading their "top-of-the-line" urethane is like dragging a dead horse across the floor, but once cured, its the closest thing to a permanent bond I've found.

Do yourself a favor and level the floor with a portland cement based product (Ardex or Mapei both make great products) before you ever start laying the wood.

[Bud Cline]

Keith,

You should probably do a CaCl (Calcium Chloride) Test before you do anything "Kackle Kits" can be purchased for your use. These test are always done for me so I'm not sure where to get the kit or what they cost but someone here will know.

I'll tell you a little thing you can do before you spend money on the test kit that may preclude the glue down installation from the gitgo.

Take some 4 or 6 mil clear poly, about a 3' X 3' piece. Tape it (seal it) to the concrete with duct tape and watch what happens for a few days. If condensation forms under the plastic then obviously there is moisture and probably too much for a direct glue down installation. At this point an alternate flooring can be chosen and you have saved the cost of a couple Kackle Kits.

If moisture (condensation) does not show on the poly then I would still do the Kackle.

[JC]

The CaCl kits can be gotton at any(most) flooring supply distrubutors and are purty cheap even come with a PH tester also.

They are not known to be the most accurate testing method but the advantage is that you get a written paper saying it was tested and passed/failed and that is great to have to cover your buttocks.

A tramex tester will work also if your not worried bout your Dad sueing you. And they are nice to have in the future plus they are also nice to test the moisture of your new hardwood and know that it is ready to be installed.

Don't know the name of the latex-glue in the black container.

I have been using Franklins 811 lately, not realy coz it is the best but mostly because I have a friend who gives it to me..And urethane glues are very pricy!! When using these glues remember they have next to no shelf life so once you open them plan to use them right away or toss them.

Make sure also to get urethane glue cleaner with the glue coz it is nasty stuff and mineral spirits does not work very good and can even take the finish off of some floors.

Finished that hardwood today it came out nice, But unfortuanaty the guy working with me learned my trick about fastening plywood to concrete and went and told everyone...I never even had a chance to charge a beer for it..

[JC]

Oh yea the CaCl test need to be down for 60-72 hours and the time is to written down to the nearest 15 minutes. Then they are sent to the lab. So if time is an issue it might not work into your schedule.

[kalford]

O.K. I will be going down for a week at a time.I can stay longer if I need to.

My Dad wouldn't sue me...smack me around maybe but no law suites.

So what if it fails and There's enough moisture to mix a bag of thinset?

[JC]

Do the "bud test" you will be fine.

Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.

[Sonnie Layne]

I couldn't have said it better...

Do the sweat test, then contact the Mfg. of both the adherant and the final product. It ain't no magic to ascertain whether or not you have moisture movement within the slab. What you need to understand and get in writing is how you are to deal with moisture at whatever level.

I'll attest again that the engineered floorings are less likely to shift due to moisture in the environment. However I've no misleadings that excessive moisture in the substrate could still effect the success/failure of the finished product. I really think it's an adhesive features issue.

No, I ain't crawfishin'... I eat 'em, but I ain't one of 'em.