Stucco

[Paul D.]

Question on STUCCO exterior walls.

They will be pouring the slab for our new garage in a few weeks, so I am getting estimates for the bill of materials. The house is cedar, which is expensive as fire now-a-days. I am not a big fan of the HardiPlank product which looks very similar. Seems most framers I've talked to really don't like it either. :(

How about stucco? My wife loves the look, but I just remember a quote from some old crusty guy on a remodeling show. When asked how long it took to do stucco well, he answered: "about 75 years.." He was, of course, 75 years old.

OTOH, some fellows in my neighborhood did a very nice looking job on a small stucco-over-straw-bale house. They were slow but made it look easy and had never done it before. I think they used caliche, water and lime. They were doing things the alternative way.

[Sponsored Links]

[Bri]

How about this stuff...maybe even get you a plastic trowel?(that was for JB) ;)

http://www.dryvit.com/

[Bud Cline]

I was going to suggest Dryvit but Bri beat me to it.

[John Bridge]

The plastic trowel is okay, but I wouldn't use the dryvit method. I would go with traditional stucco (exterior plaster). Doing stucco is much easier and less demanding than floating shower walls. There's usually a lot more of it, though. ;)

To do a garage you would need at least two helpers, or tenders as they are called in the masonry trades. One guy will be steadily mixing and hauling mortar, and the other will be moving your scaffold boards and keeping you supplied with mud. You, of course, will be busting your butt trying to keep up with them. ;)

It's a chore. I did a couple jobs years ago and then gave it up for life. :D

[Hobbit]

Paul, you said you didn't think too much of Hardiplank. Mind if I ask why?? Seems like it would be an almost indestructible alternative to wood siding.....?? I am considering it for an addition to an existing wood sided house.......hence my question. BTW, I think JB has something on his original site about cement based sidings (I think..??)

Stucco has never been my favorite exterior finish. Did several houses years ago. Onliest thing I really remember is how damn hard I worked. I think there are better alternatives, especially if existing is cedar! FWIW...:)

:):)

[Bri]

Mark my words...JB will be on the Dryvit newsletter a year from now!;)

[tomtuttle]

I'm with Hobbit; I'm interested to know the resistance to Hardiplank. I have a couple of builder friends who swear by the stuff. Stable, straight, indestructible, takes paint well. Anybody?

[Bud Cline]

Dryvit is a great system and not near the work of old fashioned stucco. I see a lot of it done around here and people love the stuff.

[John Bridge]

I'm sold on Hardi-plank for some of the reasons already stated. The reason it holds paint so well is because it is so stable. They make paints especially for fiber-cement products that are purported to last up to twenty years if properly applied. Try that with cedar.

I know, I know, the aroma. Hardi doesn't have it. :D

[Bud Cline]

Cedar shouldn't be painted to begin with. Too many natural oils that never go away. :)

[Paul D.]

Thanks for the input. I love the idea of stucco, but working it over a 1000 ft2 of garage wall is not my idea of fun either. 'Nuff said.

This Dryvit website looks complicated. What is it, a spray-on polymer concrete? I've got a neighbor who peddles some stuff called Perma-Crete that is a stucco substitute like this as well.

The Hardi Plank comments came from 3 guys who are remodelers but primarily carpenters. They just turned their noses up at the stuff. But, in reflecting on their comments, I think they didn't like it because of the dust, weight and length limitations. Comes in 12' only, which makes some trouble for matching or hiding seams. Also, blind nailing doesn't seem to get it with this stuff. I don't know any more details.

From a building materials perspective, seems like it should be bomb-proof if installed "properly." I seem to remember that there are no firm instructions on how to install the stuff either. I would be a little wary of the material. If it is basically hardiboard, then it must absorb some water. I wonder if you are supposed to prime it all around and give it room to breath like wood siding.

Pretty tough to match the look of cedar, all in all.

[Hobbit]

Paul, JB seems to have some first hand knowledge of the product. I admit I know nothing about it, just like the idea of a permanent siding solution!!:)

How about it John?? Fastening schedule? Waterproof?? Anything else??

Thanks:)

:):)

[Paul D.]

Howard,

I agree it is a potentially good product. I don't think it is water proof. I do think it is a concrete-cellulose mixture like hardibacker. And you can get it pre-primed, which is a plus.

It is used almost exclusively for siding applications here in Austin, where the cedar look is not desired or can't be afforded. Helps on the homeowner's insurance as well. I think limestone veneer must run about the same as cedar which is at about $1.90 sq ft for the material.

So no stucco. How about limestone walls? That would be a good DIY project, eh? :D

[cx]

CX thinks Hardi siding is a good and useful product. Have used it before. Will use it again. Can provide more information but not right now. :)

Good luck finding milled cedar (center match, or lap-and-gap, etc.) for $1.90 per square foot covered. Bit higher than that for me as recently as last week.

Stucco easier than mud shower walls, JB? I didn't think so. Pain in the ass, stucco. Pain in the arms, too. Good product also, but you ain't gonna catch me tryin' no thousand feet. :(

If you plan to paint the exterior, Cedar is kind of a waste as compared to HardiPlank. Cedar paints just fine, so long as you use a good oil-based primer. That's the truth, Bud, you just axe Sonnie. :)

[Bud Cline]

I figured I'd hear about that. Just paint some cedar in Texas and in a few years all you have is paint in the original form of what you painted. The cedar just rots away. :D:D:D

[John Bridge]

The only experiece I have with Hardi-plank is being around it frequently when carpenters are putting it up. It's used quite a bit on the "ranch" houses I sometimes work on.

It is not waterproof. It is the same as hardi-backer and must be painted. It comes pre-primed, also. Sherman Williams is one of the companies that makes a paint for it.

When I said stucco is easier than floating out showers, I only meant that the stucco work is less exacting. :) I did a restaurant building years ago with only a 1-sack mixer and two tenders. It was after that project that I retired from stucco. Got plenty of practice with the hawk and trowel, though. ;)

I like "cultured stone" for building exteriors. No experience with either, except for "standing around" watching others do it. It is not technically challenging, though. It would be an excellent project for the newbie.

[Paul D.]

John,

What the heck is cultured stone? Is that related to the cement blocks that look like limestone? "Concrete Masonry Units." I think limestone for wall construction runs about $100 per ton. Smashed fingers extra. I would think about doing the lower part of the wall up to the window sills in stone and the upper part in siding. That would be more manageable for a newbie mason.

[Simple]

I'm finishing up on a cedar exterior repair. The existing cedar is 1x3, 1x6 and 1x8x14' ship lap vertical siding. They don't sell these sizes of the shelf so I had to get it all custom milled. 20 pieces of each size. "Thanks Stahlman"

Benjamin Moore has a oil base exterior primer designed for cedar. It stops all the bleading. It's one of the Fresh Start products.

I have used Hardi and still do. Cedar is much lighter.

[Sonnie Layne]

Like any other wood siding, ya gotta be sure to prime all 18 sides of it before you hang it.

Nailing schedules for hardiplank are like any other plank siding. Nail it into every stud. 12' lengths aren't a problem... everything gets staggered like any wood product. You can get it pre-primed, important thing is to prime, tho' I'm not sure the back-priming is necessary as it is with wood products. I'll check that out. I'd use the Hardiplank myself. Dust isn't as much a problem if you use shears, but it's another tool to buy. A Dust mask is appropriate and crucial.

Dryvit, along with other ep systems are currently under the burden of many lawsuits because while the material itself is OK, the application sucks. Worthless. I might consider using it indoors where I wanted a kinda-sorta stucco look. Concept is good, if used exactly in accordance with directions, it'll probably work, but I've personally had to rip the stuff out to replace the rotted framing behind it.

[Paul D.]

The counter salesman at one of the "real" lumber yards told me today that the problem with hardi installation is blowout when you use a nailgun. He said it is not uncommon to have 50% of the material spall off the back.

He also verified what I heard elsewhere, that you cannot completely blind nail the Hardi product; some visible face-nailing is needed.

He mentioned an L-P OSB siding product, SmartLap, that is superior to the Hardiplank, but noted that it is not availble in Austin yet. This is actually what the garage plans (from WA State) called for. You can see it on L-Ps website.

[John Bridge]

Paul,

Did you ask why the Hardi-plank doesn't lend itself to blind nailing? I'm having trouble thinking of a reason why it wouldn't work.

And this product from Louisiana Pacific. OSB you say it is, and you say it's superior to Hardi, or does the salesman say it's superior? I'm having a hard time with that one, too.

Guess I'm just having a hard time today. :D

[Sonnie Layne]

Ditto John again.

I'm having a hard time with any siding from LP when they say it's some kind of OSB, I get the shakes thinking about the still on-going lawsuits concerning "masonite" type sidings.

As for the blow out, I can explain part of it. Now there are guns made for it, or you can hand nail for small jobs with siding nails. Don't use roofing nails (which are supposed to be used on the roof) or framing nails (which would be used in the framing). Main thing I've seen that would cause blowout would be

too much air pressure at the gun
not pressing the siding tightly against the framing while firing the gun.


Never heard of any suits against either Hardy or any supplier of wooden siding because of product failure. Just please don't mention v-v-v-vinyl!!! :D Hey, if you're really all that gutsy, just do the stucco thing, it'll only take a couple hours (sonnie says, laughing):)

[Paul D.]

John,

No, I didn't ask about the blind/face nailing deal. I guess you face nail when the stuff doesn't stay put?

The L-P info is strictly anecdotal as well. I sure would hope L-P ran the traps on this product after getting the pants sued off them with the last batch of composite wood siding products. Sonnie may not have heard about it, but there was a cottage industy of guys who specialized in LP lawsuit replacements.

I, myself am not too inclined to experiment with new products.

Stucco sure sounds good right now. Relatively cheap. Fresh air, sunshine, exercise. Who could ask for more? :D

[Bri]

Hi
All the Dryvit applications I've seen up here, are over extruded foam panels or over CBU. From what I've seen, it holds up pretty well. I can understand how it could fail pretty easily over a wooden substrate....but it does come in a nice plastic pail.:)

[Sonnie Layne]

...and when you're acting a tile guy, those 5 gallon buckets are a good thing to have... ;) 'bout the best thing I have to say for that product.

[cx]

Paul:

Hardiplank siding, IMHO, is a very useful product. It does require some considerations that other products don't, but it is very easy to adjust to.

You have to frame for it to apply it the way we've settled on, which is to use 2x rough cedar trim, usually ripped to about 2 1/2 inches in width. This trim is installed prior to the siding and the siding cut to butt against the trim. Extra studs/cripples must be installed around door and window openings to facilitate nailing of the siding. It's not difficult nor complicated, but you must remember to do it whilst framing.

All that is required behind the siding is roofing felt, but that has become a problem for me in that there is frequently no good way to install wind bracing if you have walls with a lot of fenestrations. You can't use shear panels at corners because then you have half inch sheathing some places and only black paper at others, which causes big, unsightly lumps in the siding. :) When I use Hardi on any habitable buildings, I just sheath the whole thing with OSB, paper it, then put on the siding. Others have begun to do the same for the same reasons, but frequently that will lead the installers to disregard the framing and just nail to the sheathing. I'm not in favor of that, and doubt if Hardi is either. Adding full sheathing, of course, adds to the cost of the siding, but you normally have to sheath with something anyway, so it's still a very inexpensive outer layer.

I believe Hardi still advertises that it can be blind nailed under the right conditions, but it just doesn't work worth a shit in the real world. Too flexible unless you use a whole lot of overlap, which also causes problems. We face nail all of it. I would suggest that the salesman who says there is a nailing problem has a hammer problem rather than a siding problem. One major consideration in applying it with pneumatic nailers is to use one with a head that allows for adjustment of depth of set. Even with that you will have to smack the odd nail with a hammer at times. No gun will set the nail the same depth into a white wood stud and a treated SYP plate, for example. But with just a little practice you can get real good at putting nearly every nail just below flush. That is the way we set ours, and the painter caulks over them. There is some controversy about whether this meets with Hardi's specs, but we've had no failures of any kind. And you can't pin their reps down on anything, so we have taken to just doing what works well. Actually, it seems most of the "failures" that cause disputes with Hardi have to do with the finish and stains from fasteners bleeding through the paint and such. Have had no such problems.

Most every manufacturer of pneumatic tools has a line of fasteners that meet Hardi's specs and a gun to shoot them. I have a coil nailer by Hitachi that does OK once you get used to it (too damn light and is built to rapid-fire and it costs $60 to make it a single-fire). The very nice adjustable head makes it very useful for Hardi siding and lots of other stuff. I have never once experienced any "blowing out" of the Hardi using that, or any other, nailer we've used for that purpose.

The issue of cutting the stuff is very real and worthy of consideration. If I were to be offered a fat contract to apply cement/fiber products without the benefit of the electric shears we use to cut it, I would decline. It just ain't worth it. We do make some cuts, of course, with abrasive saws and drills and such, but 99 percent of the cutting is with the shears and it is easy, clean and fast. And you can buy the Porter Cable knock-off at HD for under $200 last time I looked. I have the much more expensive Snapper brand on accounta PC hadn't come out with theirs yet. :( Unless you're gonna do a lot of siding, the PC looks like it would be quite adequate.

I think it matters very little whether you can buy your siding pre-primed or no. Painters I know all say you gotta prime it before you paint it anyway. And I agree with John (I think it was John) who said back priming is not important like with wood siding where it is imperative. The prep is very important as always. The most important part of the prep falls to the installer, though. You must leave the specified gaps and they must be properly caulked. The type of caulk is another bone of contention; Hardi specifies (or did last time I looked) at least one caulk, the manufacturer of which says it can't be used as specified. Me? I use a good quality acrylic latex caulk, a 100% acrylic latex paint, and have had no problems at all. Understand, though, that my oldest installation has not yet seen five full turns of the globe, but it still looks new.

And it is heavy, and very "bendy". Even this very day I was installing 16 foot lengths of 1x10 cedar siding all by my onsies, while I find it exceeding difficult to do much of anything with a 12 foot length of Hardi. It's just a bit unwieldy is all. But it's a hellofa lot easier than installing stucco!

Bottom line: I think it's good stuff if installed well. Very inexpensive, too. And your insurance company considers it "masonry exterior", which is good. And from twenty feet away ain't nobody gonna know it's not painted wood.

My opinion; worth price charged.


Oh, and on that OSB siding product? I don't know what it is, and I'm not totally anti-Beaver Barf like many folks hereabouts, but I wouldn't touch the stuff.

[John Bridge]

I think it was Sonnie who came out with the fact that fiber-cement doesn't have to be back primed like wood siding does.

I WOULD have said, but he beat me to it. ;)

[John Bridge]

Back to Dryvit.

The biggest problem we've had around here with Dryvit type systems is the fact that they are applied over styrofoam, which does not breathe. In order to do a Dryvit job as specified, you have to completely seal the shell of the building, and this is not good. The failures have resulted from moisture which somehow gets beyond the styrofoam and into the framing. Before you know it you have a shell that is supported by little but dry rot. The water that gets in has no way of evaporating.

I don't like foam products on the exterior of houses, and I don't like products that completely seal the envelope. That's why I would never consider a Dryvit type system on a house. It may be okay for commercial, but not residential.

[Bud Cline]

I've heard about the dry rot problems before in fact 60 Minutes did a piece on that problem a few years ago. I think the majority of the complaints were coming from the south, primarily Florida.

There is a builder here that has been building Southwestern Style (stucco looking) homes for 20 or 30 years using this type of system and I am not aware of any serious problems arising from the use of the the foam or the surface products.

It is also used here commercially with great success.

Go figure. :)

[Ron]

I really like the look of stucco and stone together.When I was in Calgary for a few months,I noticed that there are barely any homes clad with brick.Most of them are masonry stucco.I saw a crew of masons finish the exterior of a home I was working in in 2 days.One day they stapled 2x2 mesh(same type I use in mud beds)over the tar paper and applied the scratch coat.Next day they applied the coloured finish coat.Beautiful work and they made it seem so easy.I don't remember the brand name on the bags that they brought.

The more expensive homes have,in addition to stucco exteriors,natural stone accents,like around windows and doors or on the corners of some walls.Either river rock or anthracite colour rundlestone.The rundlestone were set without mortar in the joints,apparently an authentic Albertan feature.All the stones were hand tooled to achieve this effect.Looks great.The friend of mine out there is a master stone mason.He does most of his stone facades this way.If I ever build a house,I would approach it the same way.Don't know about the technicalities of vapour issues behind the masonry stucco but most of the older homes I saw there were done this way and looked like they were unaffected by water damage.

[cx]

We do that sometimes, Ron.

http://images.snapfish.com/335%3A6%3C6%3B23232%7Ffp66%3Dot%3E2327%3D55%3C%3D835%3Dxroqdf%3E232335256%3B6%3C3ot1lsi

And sometimes we git better pichers. :o

[John Bridge]

yeah, I love the look of stone. CX, I thought you got a new camera. ;)

Real stucco breathes, and there is no problem with moisture unless you use the wrong paint on the stuff. They make elastomeric paints now that should be used.

The old way of doing stucco with the pigmented finish coat didn't cause any rot, either, but the lath would rust out eventually.

[cx]

Correctly detailed, I think good stucco over #30 felt paper is about as good as it gets for a durable exterior in our part of the country.

Well, JB, I don't blame my saw when my miters are off, either. ;) When I'm just taking jobsite pictures for documentation, I generally use the smallest format on the camera, which is what you see there. Now that I know how to pewt'em onna web, maybe I aughta start using little bigger format, eh? :)

[Bud Cline]

Yeh now see that's a great look I think. You buildin' that one CX?

[cx]

That's a 1200 ft addition I finished early this year, Bud. Just before owling season. :)

[Bri]

Originally posted by John Bridge
Back to Dryvit.

The biggest problem we've had around here with Dryvit type systems is the fact that they are applied over styrofoam, which does not breathe. In order to do a Dryvit job as specified, you have to completely seal the shell of the building, and this is not good. The failures have resulted from moisture which somehow gets beyond the styrofoam and into the framing. Before you know it you have a shell that is supported by little but dry rot. The water that gets in has no way of evaporating.

I don't like foam products on the exterior of houses, and I don't like products that completely seal the envelope. That's why I would never consider a Dryvit type system on a house. It may be okay for commercial, but not residential.

Just curious...be wouldn't wedi board cause the same problems to the framing? Foam/cement?

[John Bridge]

Bri,

Wedi isn't used as an exterior skin. That's what I'm talking about. I don't have any problem with barriers on the heated side of walls, but when you put that stuff on the outside, it leaves no escape hatch for moisture.

The outside of outside walls needs to breathe.

[Bri]

Ahh...good...thanks. Off topic I know..but this is interesting: http://www.wedi.co.uk/fundo.htm

[Bud Cline]

THERE'S all those pictures.....

I could never find that stuff but I knew it was out there somewhere, thanks BRI.

[John Bridge]

Those showers are something else.

I notice they recommend the wedi over concrete slabs, too.

[Paul D.]

Hi cx,

Thanks for the input, as usual.

The trim detail is a good tip. I see folks installing trim over the siding so much, but it looks like heck and seams to leave gaps. My existing house is trimmed in 1x4 cedar around the windows and doors on top of the siding, so a 2x4 cedar board would probably look fine and meet the need without ripping.

I understand about adding cripples. We won't have many fenestrations (love that word), so that should not be a big issue. Only the dimensions and getting it right.

I was planning on sheathing most of the garage and add-on anyway, so no problem there with thickness of the walls.

On cutting: The garage will have about 850 sq ft of siding. Would that justify buying a $200 shear? I have a diamond blade for the circular saw. I know the product is dusty. I used this saw to cut the HardiBacker for the bathroom. I guess I could sell the shear when I was done. Can't imagine a long-term love affair with a tool like that. ;) Maybe I will invent a fan/water curtain set up to control dust from sawing...in my spare time :D

[Hobbit]

CX.....have to add my thanks.......Great information. Sounds like the Hardi might be just what I am looking for. Have to give it some more thought!:)

:):)

[cx]

Paul:

Keep in mind that the reason for adding the extra framing member is to ensure you have room to nail the Hardi not so close to its edge. It don't take too well to that at all. If you're gonna use a full 4" trim piece, you'll wanna add another stud, or space your one extra stud away with some 2x blocks - kinda like making a "corner" when you're framing the wall. Just lay a piece of trim up there on the framing and you'll see right away what I mean. You want to nail an inch or so back from the edge of the Hardi if you can. Some folks just nail to the sheathing, but we know you're smarter than that on accounta you're a injineer and all. :)

As for cutting, yeah, you can do the whole thing without the shears, it just makes it easier and more pleasant. If you have more than one circular saw, use the worst one for this task. The dust is real hard on motors. I have a saw that is dedicated to use with abrasive blades for concrete, steel, Hardi, etc., and I remember to blow out the motor with compressed air frequently. You will too (see above reason). :) Depending upon what sort of cuts you'll have to make, you might wanna get a couple of them there jigsaw blades with the carbide chip coating. They do pretty well on little holes and cut-outs. If you lived closer, I'd let you borrow my Snapper. It's pretty lonely most of the time. :D

What you gonna Hardi, Harold?

[Hobbit]

It's in the planning stages right now CX. Planning a garage/shop close to the house. Tentatively, space for three vehicles, two will have drive through capability (roll up garage doors on both ends to a circular drive) and about 600 sq. ft. of shop space.

Its a rustic country setting and I want the garage to blend in with the house as much as possible. Of course, everything can change!! I just want a pretty permanent solution.:)

:):)

[Sonnie Layne]

CX,

Air's cheap, easy, and handy when you run off bottles. CO2 is the way to go, I'm tellin' ya.

[Paul D.]

CX,

Lived closer? I used to drive from Baton Rouge to Enchanted Rock to go climbing for the weekend! Boerne hasn't moved to Presidio County has it? ;)

[Sonnie Layne]

CX is a nice type, huh? I mean he not only gives advice, but DETAILED advice and all for free (I think ;) ) And as far as I can look back, it's been good advice. May need a new forum just for him and generally good construction practices. A lot of good information even if he tawlks weerd. ;)

My hat's off to you, CX and I'll raise a glass this evening. I'm always needing an excuse :D and advice.

Now that thing about the trim... seems I was in a discussion about a year ago with someone on another site/job/ado and another person mentioned that Hardy was making a 5/4 trim to close off the runs of siding. I haven't checked their web-site, or bothered to axe the local suppliers.

Paul, you can rent the shears as an option, but as CX said, blow the dust off your saw (most importantly inside the motor casing via the intake vents) daily. I prefer CO2, it smells better, but I'm weird.

[Paul D.]

Oh, I know Sonnie. I first ran across CX on the JLC framing or building science site back in the conceptual stage of this remodeling project. There's more'n one way to skin a cat, for sure, but CX is good about telling me what WON'T (or shouldn't) work and why, especially for methods that might vary by location. That is more important than someone's opinion on how to get to the end of a task.

I wasn't kidding about the dust scrubber either. When I chip stuff for my compost pile, I hang a hose with a fogging nozzle in the chipper exhaust to keep the dust down. Works great. I used a big floor fan to blow the CBU dust away when I was doing the bathroom walls. But the stuff just hangs if there is no wind to disperse it. It magically attracts to the cleanest car within sight. :D

BTW, what pray-tell, does CO2 smell like? Bet is similar to that nasty N2 smell.

[Sonnie Layne]

Paul, true enough about the water curtain. While in the greenhouse biz, I used to mix my own soilless medium (got the recipe right), big time dusty!!! To aid with your invention, don't forget that the nursery industry has fog nozzles and lots of exhaust fan technology that may provide useful.

CO2 basically has no odour. I don't crank open the bottles to have a whiff, but if any odour at all, I'd compare it to fresh eggs (not cooked ;) ) I'm not familiar with odour of N2, I used to use some Nitric Acid and I guess I can maybe remember that smell, but there again it's not something I'd be stickin' my nose in!!! :D Considered using N2 when I converted to bottled gas, but was told by Porter Cable or Hitachi, someone, that there would likely be a corrosive reaction between it and some of the parts of my nail guns.

[IBJT]

It's probably more expensive...

When I was working on pit crew for a friend, we used Nitrogen to fill our tires, and to power air guns during pit stops. I'm not sure, but I think we got it almost free since BOC Gases was a sponsor.

Nitrogenin its gas state is unreactive, however when heated it can react with many other elements to form a wide variety of compounds.

Carbon Dioxide, when it is in the form of a gas, has a sharp, faint, odor and a slightly sour taste.

Ala... Soda Water? :)

Nitrogen makes up about 78% of the atmosphere by volume but the atmosphere of Mars contains less than 3% nitrogen. The element seemed so inert that Lavoisier named it azote, meaning "without life". However, its compounds are vital components of foods, fertilizers, and explosives. Nitrogen gas is colourless, odourless, and generally inert. As a liquid it is also colourless and odourless. :rolleyes:

Nitrogen Oxide, NO. (also known as nitrogen monoxide, nitric oxide, and nitrogen (II) oxide) is a Colourless gas with suffocating odor, it is a reddish brown color when exposed to air

Nitrogen Dioxide, N02; and Nitrogen Peroxide, N2O4 has a Pungent, acrid odor detectable at 0.12 ppm. Highly toxic by inhalation; high concentrations of the gas and liquid NO2 -N2 O4 are corrosive to the skin, eyes, and mucous membranes.

N2O - NITROUS OXIDE (also known as Laughing Gas, nitrogen oxide, and dinitrogen oxide has a sweet odor. Used by many dentists.

To read more about this fascinating element visit this site:
http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/topicreview/bp/ch10/group5.html#table

:p :p


[Edited by IBJT on 11-19-2002 at 06:00 PM]

[Hobbit]

Nice work John T.!! Who knew Nitrogen was all that.........and more!!;)



N2O - NITROUS OXIDE (also known as Laughing Gas, nitrogen oxide, and dinitrogen oxide has a sweet odor. Used by many dentists.

Interesting side note: N2O - Nitrous Oxide is the power booster of choice for many racing type engines. Primarily used in Drag Racing, "Nitrous" boosts power by increasing the amount of available oxygen and by lowering the temperature of the intake gases thereby allowing more oxygen and fuel to be crammed into the available space.

Back when I was more younger and more stupider,;) I used to play a little with drag racing (E.T. brackets) mostly with street muscle cars. Ah, .......those were the days........love the smell of fuel and burning rubber!:)

:):)

[Sonnie Layne]

Actually, according to my gas supplier (read bean-man, haha) he charges less for N than CO2, but he's just a broker, not the filler of the bottle.

In other words, he just passes gas, he doesn't create it. :D

[cx]

Tawlks weerd?!!! Damn Poet aughta talk! :mad:

Y'all gonna make me blush. :o

You'll recall, Sonnie, that JB offered me a building forum some time ago. Had to decline on the grounds that there is way too much to know for me to even attempt to do justice to such an endeavor, even if I had the time. You'll note that over to the JLC site they've broken their forums up into a dozen or more pieces and they don't even mention plumbing or electric or some other stuff. Tough enough just to be conversant in most of the areas.

But if a question comes up on any subject that I think I have some useful knowledge about, I certainly don't mind sharing the information. And if a question comes up in an area about which I have no knowledge or experience, why, hell, I throw in my dos centavos anyways. Y'all know that. :D That's how come I got such a good disclaimer.

And you'll notice I don't hesitate to axe Qs when I'm on the short end of the knowledge stick, and usually find folks out there willing to contribute from their stack of know how. Guess that's the way ol' JB expected it to work around here, and it's been a bit of a success, I'd say. My hat's off to'im. :)

And, Paul? Just a little more free advice? Don't be tellin' how far you drive to climb on rocks to make a point about any sort of rational behavior, eh? :D

Don't know that I'd try to use any kinda water system to keep the dust down whilst cutting Hardi. I can just see an even bigger mess! I surely do recommend cutting it outside, and if Momma Nature ain't got her big fan on, wouldn't hurt to turn on your little one. Little dust mask ain't a bad idea, neither, I just never had 'nuff good sense to do that.

Hardi's long since had trim for their product, Sonnie, I've just never used it. Doesn't look too good to moi. My framer has started using it on corners for another builder because some folks have had some water leaks using the system I described to Paul. I've not seen the problem and have to think it's due to inferior caulking product. The cedar will shrink a little if it's real wet when installed, but shouldn't shrink enough to cause that kind of failure to my thinking. And...........

My opinion; worth price charged. ;)

[IBJT]

is a sweet-smelling, colorless gas best known to nonchemists as "laughing gas." As early as 1800, Humphry Davy noted that N2O, inhaled in relatively small amounts, produced a state of apparent intoxication often accompanied by either convulsive laughter or crying. When taken in larger doses, nitrous oxide provides fast and efficient relief from pain. N2O was therefore used as the first anesthetic. Because large doses are needed to produce anesthesia, and continued exposure to the gas can be fatal, N2O is used today only for relatively short operations.

Nitrous oxide has several other interesting properties. First, it is highly soluble in cream; for that reason, it is used as the propellant in whipped cream dispensers. Second, although it does not burn by itself, it is better than air at supporting the combustion of other objects. This can be explained by noting that N2O can decompose to form an atmosphere that is one-third O2 by volume, whereas normal air is only 21% oxygen by volume.

2 N2O(g) --> 2 N2(g) + O2(g)
Thanks to purdue.edu (Where they teach rocket Science.)

And that's what happens when you pop that nitrous bottle open into your cylinders.

This world is a strange and wonderful place. Just think, 2 Hydrogen (a Gas) and 1 Oxygen (a Gas) combine to form Water
(a liquid).

Two Nitrogen and 1 Oxygen combined are still a gas, that makes ya giddy, gives us whipped Cream, and can speed up your hotrod. DAMN! :D

Now if you add another Oxygen to it you have...............

:D I do know when to quit! Sometimes. :o

[cx]

Hot damn! Now we gotta have us a Rocket Science forum, JB. :D

[Paul D.]

Now CX,

On caulking. If I remember correctly from Mike Handley's BS forum on the JLC site, is caulking even recommended? This may have been under Paul Fisette's (sp?) tenure on that forum, but it was there that I saw this subject.

I think the point was that the sheathing and building paper provide the moisture/water/air infiltration barriers, not the siding. The siding is just to keep the larger animals and sun off. Shimming allows the moisture to drain away and allow air to circulate behind the siding. I understand that the answers depend on whether you are doing a garage or living space, but I will be doing both.

Wasn't there some discussion on the virtues of shimming the siding out from the building paper as well? This may have been only for wood siding, not the fiber-concrete stuff like Hardi.

[cx]

Your point is well taken, Paul. If the caulking failed on an istallation I or my framer had done, wouldn't nobody ever have noticed except aesthetically. We wrap the black paper around all corners and it's properly lapped and the siding is just there to hold it on and look better. And, of course, keep out the larger beasts as you suggest. :) The other builder is covering his ass unnecessarialy, based on failures in other folks construction due to poor installation practice, I think.

In our part of the country, I don't think there is much, if any, advantage to spacing the siding away from the drain plane. The concrete/fiber stuff doesn't care at all and the wood will care little if back-primed. Both can breathe quite well if correctly installed. And down here it doesn't even matter if it's conditioned or un-conditioned space inside, IMHO.

The caulking at the siding/trim joints is mostly and aesthetic consideration, and keeps most of the water away from the trim material. Must note that you never wanna caulk the horizontal siding joints.

[John Bridge]

My opinion on caulking.

It is aesthetic. The siding boards, whatever they might be, deflect the rain and the sun. The exterior skin of a house needs to breathe, or you'll have problemos. I caulk the siding joints you can see (the vertical joints). I don't caulk under the boards on rustic or clapboards.

Asbestos shakes were probably the best siding product we ever had.

[cx]

Well, unless you're the one installing the asbestos shingles, that is. ;)

Those things make Hardiplank seem easy to work with by comparison. I believe "pain in the ass" would be an apt description of the product. :)

And not but a few years ago - maybe five or six - one lumber yard in San Antonio still had three patterns of that stuff in stock. Lots of the old houses in the rich white man's district still have a lot of that siding, and lots of it's been on the same walls at least since the 20s if the old folks are to be believed. And I believe them. If they don't get physically broken, ain't nothin' bothers that stuff.

[rj]

WE (my employer) Still sell that stuff...and we stock
two styles...straight and..wavy edge..
'sept it don't have that A.... stuff in it no more.
they call it mineral siding.

and you can have it in any color you like...
.....as long as it's white :D

[Sonnie Layne]

Hey, RJ, what's proper procedure for priming/painting the stuff? I saw it recently on a new property here and I was wondering.

[john3764]

Stucco.. Good siding. Wall preperation: Use 15lb., (Because I don't like the paper backed lath, felt is better) felt, 1 1/2" stucco netting. Furring nails, ( 1" roofing nails with a 1/4" thick cardboard spacer, before 1940 it was a metal spacer) would be nice but I don't think you can get these nails anymore so simply staple the wire to the wall with 3/4" roofing staples. Stucco: 4 sand, 1 plastic cement, 1 fire clay. Scratch coat wall with about 3/8 thick of mud. Take your Skariff (rake) scratch wall. Next day come back and apply a smooth coat of mud, (this will be your flat base coat) Come back the next day and apply whatever texture you wish on top of that flat base. Now, if you want a sponge trowel finish, you can do this with your flat base coat by simply allowing it to set up for about 1 1/2 hours and then come back with your sponge trowel and trowel over it to give it that texture. You can also color your stucco by adding dyes to it, this way you'll never have to paint. :)

John Wilson
North West Tile, Inc.

[John Bridge]

"Stucco: 4 sand, 1 plastic cement, 1 fire clay"

Hi John,

Gotta clarify for the group. Plastic cement is masonry cement or portland? And why fire clay?

[cx]

Yeah, I was curious about that, too, JB. And that's a lot of fire clay. :confused:

Splain us, JohnW. :)

[john3764]

The reason for the plastic cement is because it sets up faster and differently for that matter. Plastic cemet seems to work better for Stucco rather that just Portland cement. Plastic Cement is a cement and is a masonry product that you can buy at any masonry outlet. It comes in the same size bag, 94 lbs. as Portland cement comes in. The fire clay is for 2 reasons, it sets up faster and less cracking.
In California where I am from, they blow the stucco on the house and have about 15 people behind a trowel, troweling on the mud.. they scratch about 12 houses a day! No kidding!!

John Wilson

Longview, WA.

[john3764]

Sorry guys.. I meant 4 sand, 1 plastic cement, 1/2 fire clay. Sorry for that mistake.

John Wilson

[john3764]

I have to remember that you use 1/2 as much fire clay as you would lime. I forget that sometimes... :)

[Paul D.]

That's good. Cut and paste that into the Liberry.

[John Bridge]

I think one of the old mud men that helps Dave G. over at the tile school uses fire clay also (Jack). I've heard of it. Just never done it.

Around here it's all lime.

[cx]

The "plastic" in the "plastic cement" is mostly lime, JB. They put other stuff like JohnW says, to change the set time, water retention and such. Don't know if we could go down to the local store and buy us some. I've never tried, but I think it's mostly a left coast thing. Only thing I've seen used here is masonary cement with some Portland added.

On the fire clay, it makes sense on the cracking issue, which is a real problem with the mix used around here. The only time I see it used is for building fireplaces, and they use very little of the stuff.

And speaking of fire clay, does anybody know exactly what the stuff really is and why it does what it does? JohnW, you wise on that one?

[john3764]

CX,
no, I do not know what are the ingredients of Fire Clay. I know that I like to use it because it is 1. Less Costic, (won't burn your hands, give you strawberries that hurt like hell!) Yes, I use gloves :) It's just while I am setting my tile in the wet mud or when I am setting my A-106 trim I get those damn things. 2. It smells better. 3. Creamyer mud, 4. Sets up better, 5. Less cracking.

John Wilson

[cx]

So, you are putting it in your deck mud and wall mud mixes, as well as stucco?

Is it expensive out there?

[john3764]

No.. I do not use clay in my deck mud. My deck mud is sand and cement. I use clay in my fat mud (wall mud) and only sometimes.

John Wilson

[John Bridge]

Well, it sounds like an improvement. Gonna see if I can get me some and give it a try. :)

Not for stucco, though. No, no, no. For showers. ;)