Travertine installation problem

[floorsnmore]

I recently installed a 200 sq ft entry with 18x18 Honed and filled Ivory Travertine. The day after we finished, the customer said she was not happy with the installation due to the height difference from one tile to the next. I have installed many floors like this and we typically have less than 1/16" which is the case in this job. But the customer has a friend who tells her that she should be able to roll a quarter across the entire floor without it jumping or bouncing at all.

I have two questions:

1. What is the industry standard for natrural stone?

2. To make the customer happy, I may propose sanding the whole floor level and then sealing it, is this acceptable and does anyone know who might do that in the Houston, TX area?

[Sponsored Links]

[polacek]

Bummer. That is the drawback of tile work, especially natural stone. Has to be perfect otherwise you get into the situation that you are in. When you laid the floor, did you butter each tile, of use the trowel and spread a large section on the subfloor?

[Trask]

I feel like I'm talking to a wall without a first name..In anycase WELCOME.

There are standards for lippage in the Ansi document(A 137.1). However this pertains to the installation of ceramic tiles and not Stone Tiles. Marble institute may have some different requiments, but often references Ansi/Tca guidelines. I would assume that the Ansi example could serve as a ballpark model for you Travertine floor. Ansi does not give exacting values as far as I can find, but rather guidlines and considerations with regard to thickness variation within the tiles in accordance with manufacturing standards. The Spacing or grout joint width is recognized as contributing to abrupt changes in respective tile elevation changes. (the allowable lippage)

So with all that, I would assume with your larger format stones, spaced a 1/16", that you may be subject to pretty tight expectations...probably in the 1/32" of lippage.

A qualified stone restoration pro can likely help you out..but it will be expensive. I feel for you, as I've been in siuations like this where I ended up eating large sections of profit due to the fact that I started setting on the floor without addressing issues I knew existed. But as is often the real world case I opted to keep making progress due to the time frame that was impossed on me. Bottom line is if you start it you bought it if there's a problem.

[StoneBuddy]

Let me see who we have in the Houston area. A grind in place is in order.

Please, do not take your belt sander to the lips, it only makes it worse. A stone restoration pro will have no problem tackling this job.

[StoneBuddy]

Hi, floorsnmore(what's your real name?), I have a local member of the NSRA available in your area. I don't want to violate the rules and regulations of this great forum so I will not post the name, adress, and phone number of a company in your area who does just this kind of work, and is also, an upstanding member of the Natural Stone Restoration Alliance.

PM me for details.
:clap1:

[Steven Hauser]

Buddy,

Thank you for your assistance.

:)

[floorsnmore]

I own the company, I did not install it so I don't know if there were any underlying issues that should have been addressed. This is an installer who does stellar work. IMO the lines look great, and the lippage (thanks for the word) is only visible at sunset when the sun is nearly at the level of the floor.

I have heard that the lippage should not exceed 2 business cards thickness. If that is the non-technical test, then only three tiles out of 99 full tiles (plus a few dozen cut pieces) fail. But many more cause a quarter to jump.

Should I just cut my losses and offer a settlement, or do I insist that this is not uncommon without sanding in place?

[floorsnmore]

BTW,

Name's Shadi

[StoneBuddy]

The only problem with ripping it out and redoing it with a customer like this is that who's to say when you re-install, that they are gonna be happy with it then? At least witha ground in place, customer will be happy and you will have saved a headache AND some money. Glad to help.

[joh]

I did not install it so I don't know if there were any underlying issues that should have been addressed. This is an installer who does stellar work.Do not worry about it, If the floor have any problems the restoration guy would tell you before he starts the job.

I have heard that the lippage should not exceed 2 business cards thickness.
I have also heard this statement. Save your self the time and money and have the floor ground in place. The home owner will have no room to say they will not pay for the job.

If that is the non-technical test, then only three tiles out of 99 full tiles (plus a few dozen cut pieces) fail. But many more cause a quarter to jump.
It only takes one.

Should I just cut my losses and offer a settlement, or do I insist that this is not uncommon without sanding in place? you should not settle, what you have is very common, doing a ground in place will separate you from everyone else.

here is what a ground in place can do for you. http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=421649&postcount=6

[StoneBuddy]

This is very common, and I have even seen whole houses with limestone 24x24 tiles with 3/16" to 1/4" lips. These I call toe-stubbers. You really can hurt yourself on one.

The problem with lippage is it throws the whole image of the floor away. Even just the slightest lips will alter the true beauty of the floor. If you have never seen the results of travertine ground in place to remove lips, here you go:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d120/stonebuddy/kitchenbefore.jpghttp://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d120/stonebuddy/kitchenafter.jpg

As you can see, it is totally different. The after picture is a little fuzzy. We took this floor a little less hone than the factory finish because the owner hated the "half-polished" look. The end result is a floor that you truly can roll a quarter across without it bouncing. Also, for a customer that has lots of floors to mop constantly, a mop bucket rolls around freely, not catching lips and impeding its motion.

I have stone installers around me that offer my service as an upcharge to their installs. On higher-end homes, all it takes is a couple of pictures, and the upcharge is sold. Done deal.

[Macky]

Pictures are worth a thousand words. I am going to use this photo to show the setter what my expectations are for the stone floors that I want installed in my home. Great information for sure!

[doitright]

Hi Shadi, Welcome! :)

In response to your initial question about acceptable lippage. By standards set with the Marble Institute of America, acceptable lippage is set at 1/32" between tiles (if they are smooth surface).

Have you come to a resolution with the homeowner at this point? :shades:

[joh]

Do to the fact that buddy’s image is a little bit out of focus; here is a floor and walls with large joints that was ground in place.

http://www.huligar.com/nsraweb/gallery/data/501/medium/limestone_bath_room.jpg

[CRB]

most interesting that the "upcharge" option should be in palce for upscale jobs.
I am considering ( after 20 years of stone fixing) of this being a stated consideration since clients here are having their hopes and expectatrions raised and raised by TV and style mags. Good workmanship and attention to detail is not enoguh for some, however hard we try!!

Nice work joh it seems to me!

[joh]

CRB, you are welcome (i think). :confused:

[StoneBuddy]

Joh, no close-ups of that floor? Would love to see it.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d120/stonebuddy/after.jpg

Same floor, better focus.

EDIT: Maybe not better focus. They look good until uploaded. Oh well.

[joh]

Sorry I do not, send me a pm if you want to se the video of all the work done in this home