Sealer changes grout color?

[jody]

Will a sealer darken the color of the grout? My new kitchen tile was grouted about five days ago ..... and has lightened considerably. The grout was a mocha brown, and it does'nt look like the grout sample after it has dried.

Thanks,
Jody

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[doitright]

Hi Jody :)

It sounds like you may need to scratch the surface of the grout and see if the darker color gets exposed. If so, you may want to try a vinegar & water wash. Start with 2 parts water to 1 part vinegar. Do a TEST area first.

Get back to us with the results.

[jody]

It does't seem to make a difference if I scratch the grout, it still is the same color. I did try the vineager solution, but that did'nt change anything.

Will the grout darken when you seal it or will it say the same color as it is after it has dried? My tiles are a glazed ceramic and the grout it premium grade Keracolor S, sanded grout by Mapei.

Thanks,
Jody

[doitright]

Hi Jody :)

Impregnating sealers will not change the color of your grout. Enhancers may darken, but at varying degrees.

I suggest doing a TEST with Aqua Mix Enrich 'n Seal. This is the only enhancer that I think will do the trick with your application, and expectations. :nod:

[jody]

Where can I get the sealer you mentioned?

Thanks, Jody

[doitright]

Hi JodY :)

Go here. (http://www.aquamix.com/where_to_buy/)

[jody]

I called Mapei, and his opinion was that there was too much water used to wash the tile, and that the color was washed away. ???

He said that an enhancer would possibly end up multi colored, and suggested a grout recolorant.

Thoughts on the enhancer vs. the recolorant. It seem that after a new installation of tile I should'nt have to recolor the tile, and he said it would be more like a paint.

Jody

[jody]

Has anyone had any personal experience with the grout colorant ... or the Aqua mix enrich n' seal??? Good or bad?

Thanks, Jody

[jody]

Does anyone know if Aqua Mix Color Enhancing Sealer (sold exclusevily at Lowes) is the same thing as Aqua Mix Enrich n' Seal? I know sometimes products are made for these big companies with only a slight change in the name.

Lowes carries Aqua Mix, but they don't seem to carry the Enrich N' Seal.
However the Lowe's Color Enhancing Sealer suggests redoing every 5 years, and the Enrich n' Seal says every 15, so I wonder if it is the same.

I need some by Tuesday this week so am trying to find something locally, however in central Kansas, a Lowe's is about my only shot.

Thanks, Jody

[porcelanosa]

My experience is that every time that you seal the joints they get darker. When we install tile in our showrooms we seal the joints to make them darker and if that doesn't work then we use a syllicon strip.

[Davy]

Before doing anything, I would try a stronger vinegar wash, straight vinegar isn't very strong, I would try it in a closet or hidden area, rinse well. :)

[doitright]

Hi Jody :)

The guys at Mapei are straight shooters. It is very possible that the grout has lightened with a use of too much water. Since you haven't noticed a difference after scratching the surface or your first vinegar wash, you have a few options.

1. As Davy suggested, try washing a TEST area with straight vinegar. Let dry, and check color.

2. As Mapei mentioned, any enhancing sealer (including Aqua Mix Enrich n Seal), may turn out splotchy.

3. As Mapei mentioned, apply a grout colorant.

I have utilized all three methods, and the grout colorant yields the most consistent results. It serves two purposes. First it will give you a consistent color throughout the grout. Second, it seals the grout, thus making it easier to maintain. If you choose this method, it is critical to not seal the grout beforehand. With a good application, it won't look painted. There are others here who utilize grout stain, which is an entirely different product. It is most effective when you want to darken a similiar color grout, not produce a drastic change.

[jody]

It has been a few weeks since I've visited this site, but the problem hasn't gone away, I have just been busy with other things. I am going to try to post a couple pics this time to see what you guys think.

One picture will be of the tile with 1/2 of it being laid the day before and pretty much dry, and the other 1/2 freshly grouted. That was you can see the difference. The color is Mapei Mocha. The second photo is where I wet the grout lines with a wet (water) sponge, then put on straight kitchen vineager with a toothbrush, and scrubbed the grout lines 5 - 10 times each. Let set on grout lines approx. 5 minutes ...... then rinsed with a rag and water twice. The photo was taken about 24 hours after ther vineager wash.

It is ceramic tile laid with Mapei thinset over ditra, and then the sanded grout was Mapei also. It was mixed by a professional tile layer who is a friend of mine, so I helped. He had me doing the clean up with a big sponge with a handle. It was well water used to mix the grout and do the clean up.

Do I need to do another vineager wash and let the vineager set on the grout longer, or scrub longer?

Jody

[Davy]

Jody, the tiles in the bottom picher have been washed with straight vinegar? I'm kinda surprised it didn't help any. I wouldn't have used well water although I'm not sure that is the problem.

[Ed-diy]

Jody,

Looking at your second photo I have a feeling that grout colorant is going to be your best option.

I used Aqua Mix Grout Colorant on my kitchen floor a couple of years back with good results. :tup1: The grout had turned out lighter than I had expected and the color was not as consistent as I had hoped. :shrug:

Aqua Mix Grout Colorant was easy to apply, the color was consistent, and it didn't look like paint. A bonus is that it also acts as a sealer (it is a waterborne epoxy) and it lasts "up to 15 years".

http://www.aquamix.com./

I expecect to use it again shortly on the tile floors I am installing in the rear wing of my house.

If you have a Lowes nearby they stock some of the lighter colors. If you want something darker, as you have indicated, they will special order it for you. :goodluck:

[jody]

Thanks for the responses! Yes, the tiles in the bottom picture were washed with a straight vineager solution, and the had dried 24 hours. I just wondered it scrubbing longer with the vineager, and letting the vineager set longer on the grout would allow more of the darker color to come through uniformily? Or if there is something stronger I should use, or if all this will weaken the grout?

I did'nt know not to use well water, and the installer did'nt say anything. I also did'nt know that I was washing the pigment out of the grout when he had me sponge it off after grouting. He said that he would knock some off my bill if I would help him with carring tile, clean up, etc.

I am attaching 3 pictures. 1) The tiles with wet grout, mocha brown which probably should dry alittle lighter. 2) The tiles with dry grout, which is much lighter than the sample and somewhat irregular in color (the lighter color just makes the tiles look dusty and dirty). 3) The tiles dried after Aqua Mix Enrich n Seal was put on the bottom horizontal grout line in the photo(no vineager wash on the grout line with Enrich n Seal) ..... The rest of the grout lines in the last photo have had a full strenght vineager wash, and have dried 24 hours.

Any more advise appreciated!
Jody

[doitright]

It is ceramic tile laid with Mapei thinset over ditra



Hi Jody :)

:idea: Another thought.

Which Mapei thinset did they bond to the Ditra with? Did they prefloat the grids with thinset, or set the tile directly over the open waffles?

How long after the tiles were set did you grout?

Ditra calls for usage of a non modified thinset to bond the tiles. It's possible that you still have moisture in the setting bed trying to escape (if a modified thinset was used and you grouted shortly after setting).

Be careful with the usage of any sealer or enhancer before TESTing in a small area first (as I mentioned in an earlier post). Some products are very difficult, if not impossible to remove after their use.

From the pictures thusfar, it appears your most consistent results will be produced from an application of grout colorant.

[jody]

The Mapei thinset used was Ultaflex 2, Professional Grade, modified mortar. He spread the thinset over the open waffles in the ditra with a notched trowel as he was setting the tiles. (he did'nt prefloat the grids with thinset). I would say that it was approximatly 20 - 24 hours after setting the tiles before the grout was put in.

The test area I did with the Enrich n Seal sealer was the back groutline in the closet. I am afraid to try it anywhere else. I will wait to hear back from you'all.

Jody

[jody]

I would like to understand this alittle better, this is my first experience with installing ceramic tile. I really feel after hours of reading in posts on this site that my problem is too much water at clean up. The installer let it set up quite awhile after grouting, but when he had me use the handled sponge and water tray to clean off the dried grout of the tiles I did a thorough job, thinking that was good, and he did'nt tell me any different. I bet I sponged most of it 4 to 6 times.

If this is right will using the enhancer just make it splotchy because the grout dye isn't consistant underneath? Will rubbing the grout lines with a wire brush reveal the correct color and then allow the enhancer to be more consistant? Would a second vineager wash make the color more consistant (see bottom picture in above post) since the first wash darkened some areas but not all, or is the vineager too damaging. Is there something stronger than vineager that would work?

This is a fairly large area, a kitchen/ bar area, hallway, utility and entryway. Don't know how things got so screwed up. Just makes me sick.

Thanks, Jody

[doitright]

Hi Jody :)

Yes it does sound like way too much water was used. There are stronger acids on the market. Two of the safest to try would be phosphoric acid or sulfamic acid. It is important to follow the label directions. Brushing each joint will help to remove the top coat of cement. This must be followed by a neutralizing solution of ammonia and water. Using a wet vac to pick up the dirty solution will also help.

[James Bontrager]

Jody,
I had 2 tile jobs in a row do what yours did. I went through the vineger scrubs same as you with the same results. Both jobs I used Mapei (different colors). I used Aqua Mixes' colorant, and it turned out fine enough that I have had repeat installs at one of the jobs and referals from both.

I did notice that the sidewalks in the subdivision were stained black where the lawn sprinklers hit them (every one on well water). I now use distilled water any time I do any work in that area and have not had another problem.

That colorant goes a long way in coverage, and does have the added benifit of sealing the grout.

Good luck, Jim

[jody]

Thank you Ed-diy and James B. for the hope that all will be well even if I have to use a colorant. However I am not ready to give up on the grout if there is any way it can be fixed. If you use the colorant.... is that the only thing that can be reapplied in the future? And how long does it really last and how well does it wear??? And I am concerned about the "painted look" even though several of you have stated that it won't look like that. Ed-diy even indicated in his post that he may be using it on some new tile that he will be laying in the future. Is that true Ed-diy?

Doitright, thanks for your info, and do you think there is a good chance that one of the acids might do the trick? Does anyone recommend one over the other? I don't want to damage the grout. Can I try the acids on the same grout lines that I tried the vineager solution on???

Any and all comments appreciated! Jody

[doitright]

Hi Jody :)

I've been using Aqua Mix grout colorants for over 20 years, including over new grout (when a client changes their mind about grout color). This is always your ace in the hole.

Both acids are safe for the grout and can used over the previous vinegar washed area. TEST first.

Great points brought up regarding using distilled water for grout mixing (in place of well water). :tup2:

[Ed-diy]

Jody,

You asked:
(1) If you use the colorant.... is that the only thing that can be reapplied in the future?
I suppose it would be like painting over any other epoxy paint -- but why would you want to apply something different at a later date? :scratch:
(2) And how long does it really last and how well does it wear???
It has only been on my kitchen floor for about two years but it shows no wear.
(3) And I am concerned about the "painted look" even though several of you have stated that it won't look like that.
[/I]If you want to get down on your hands and knees to inspect it you might feel like it has a painted look. When you are finished with your project you won't do that anymore. :calm: I'm pretty picky and I'm very happy with it.[/I]
(4) Ed-diy even indicated in his post that he may be using it on some new tile that he will be laying in the future. Is that true Ed-diy?
Yes! I have just finished grouting a hall and a bedroom. I think I have the process figured out now and the results are fairly consistent :yipee: however the color is lighter than I want. I plan to use Aqua Mix Grout Colorant to get the color that I want. :tup1:

I believe there are other grout colorants out there as well but I have not used them.

If you ultimately conclude that you need to use a grout colorant, Aqua Mix is an established and reliable company.

:goodluck: :wave:

[James Bontrager]

Jody, I called the 1st customer that I used the colorant on, and it has been 3+ years, in a hall bath/laundry room combo, and they say that they have no problem with it, and that it looks the same as it did when installed.

I would think that, you having scraped the grout and not seeing any color under the surface....It just isn't there, whether it was well water or excessive water, its not there, and acid won't put it there. You have a choice remove the existing grout and re do it, or color it. Coloring is MUCH easier, faster, and more importantly...Cheaper.

Good luck with it, Jim

[jody]

Thank you guys soooooo much for the imput. I am going to try the acid to see if it brings back the color first, just to ease my mind that I tried everything. It might be a few days before I can get somewhere to get some acid though (we live 35 miles away from town). I will let you know the results.

Jody

[jody]

Oh yes, I forgot to ask ...... if I end up going with the colorant, what do I use to clean the 6 foot of grout line with in the back of my closet that I tried the enhancer sealer on (I assume I will have to get the sealer off before it will take the colorant?).

Jody

[Ed-diy]

Jody,

I don't think you need to do anything with the sealer you already have used in your test area. Grout colorant is a surface treatment.

:idea: To be sure you could go back to post #15 and use the link to Aqua Mix. Use the phone number there to call the Aqua Mix help line and get the answer from their tech rep.

[doitright]

H: Jody :)

Good advice from Ed, except you won't get a good bond if you don't break down the Enrich n Seal .

[James Bontrager]

If you are going to try the acid wash any way. I think that would take care of your sealer. Like said previously...to be sure check with Aqua Mix. Then again in the back of the closet....isn't that where the shoe rack goes?

Living 35 miles from your source, when you pick up your acid, get the colorant at the same time and save yourself a 2d trip.

Jim

[Ed-diy]

Jody,

I just reread the Aqua Mix Grout Colorant Technical Bulletin. It includes the following:

"Grout joints must be clean, dry and free of existing sealers or coatings."

Like John (doitright) says:

"... you won't get a good bond if you don't break down the Enrich n Seal ." :bow:

[kat-diy]

I had this exact same problem just this weekend. I tried the vinegar wash which did nothing. I went to Lowe's and bought the "Aqua Mix Color Enhancing Sealer" and it has fixed it up just fine! I have a few spots to touch up still but it looks like its going to come out just fine now.

[doitright]

Hi Kat :)

Thanks for sharing!

[Mountain Tile]

hi jody,
mapei used to be one of the best grouts you could buy, then they changed their formula, and now it's garbage. i have had a lot of problems with that grout over the years. in fact between mapei and custom, i've had a lot of experience with grout colorants, differant brands and have found that the aqua mix brand to be the best. easy clean up, great results. i live in a rural area and well water is all thats usually available. i never have any problems grouting unless someone provides the grout and it's garbage like mapei or custom. i try to stick with quality grouts like tec or latticrete. :goodluck:

[kat-diy]

Here's a before and after picture of my Aqua Mix Color Enhancer job.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h252/kat-diy/floorbeforeafter.jpg

It's actually a sage green grout, my camera is old and it doesnt show colors very well. It came out great though.

I used TEC grout......... I'm sure it was from too much water but I really dont feel like I used all that much that would have washed it out so much and also left all of the white splotches, that you really cant see in the picture either. :shrug: Anyway, just thought I would share the results.

[jody]

I finally got to Lowes today to pick up some phosphoric acid cleaner. On the directions it says to mix 1 part phosporic acid with 5 parts water(depending on the nature of the task a stronger solution may be used). Pre wet with water, apply solution, let set 1 - 2 minutes and scrub with a brush. Then clean up with water.

How stong of a solution would anyone suggest? And does anyone a particular technique that works well?

Thanks,
Jody