Best sealer for very light non glazed ceramic tile and grout...

[sorka]

I've done quite a bit of searching, but wanted to get some application specific advice to my situation.

We are in the process of cleaning our tile and grout in our house. We have about 1200 sft of very light ceramic tile and grout.

Prior cleaning methods (tried everything) left the grout dirty looking becuase it's so porus, so nothing ever really worked. Nothing that is until we bought a vapor cleaner. The picture below is 4 minutes worth of cleaning.

See attached photo.

Looking for a sealer with the following qualities:

1) Durability and longevity is the most important as in years with frequent cleanings.
2) A grout and tile sealer. Most of the aqua-mix labels don't say their for grout.
3) Prefer a low sheen or semi-gloss but can a 2 in 1 sealer be as durable as a dedicated penitrator sealer?
4) One coat application.
5) Spray on application if possible.

Also toying with the idea of an enhancer. Our tile is very light and although we're not going to replace it, an enhancer might darken it up, but again, don't want to do that if it will sacrifice sealer durability and longevity.

Are there any enhancers out there that have a slight sheen or slight gloss that are really durable?

If not, the best sealer for grout and tile that last a long time and makes cleanup much easier is what I'm looking for.

Our tile and grout has never been sealed, so this will be the first and hopefully last time.

[Sponsored Links]

[Davestone]

How about this....http://www.aquamix.com/for_professionals/products/pg_detail.asp?pdid=19812&pgid=37155.. i would avoid enhancing sealers on tile,it won't work well.

[sorka]

Hmm, well, it turns out that I bought exactly that at HD today. It was on clearance because they're discontinuing all Aqua Mix products.

It was only $23 for the whole gallon, but my understanding from researching on this forum that particular product isn't any near as durable as some of the Miracle 511 sealers. Plus it's only for tile, not grout. Isn't there a Miracle sealer out there that has a 20 year guarantee?

[sorka]

Here's a photo as an attachment I think. The first time I tried to upload it, it said 50KB was the maximum, so I scaled it down to 60% JPEG quality and made it 640x480. Then it said the maximum resolution was 600x800, so I had to rotate it sideways.

I'm a newby here, but it seems like productive discussions would seriously be hampered without the ability to display photos.

[bmwpower]

What's a vapor cleaner? Is that one of those steam cleaner things?

[sorka]

Yes, but it's super heated in a boiler to 300+ degrees and is about 270 degrees at the nozzle. We've been cleaning everything with it including old carpet stains that niether we nor "professional" carpet cleaning contractors could remove.

We had been using Mr Clean Magic Erasers before. That was the best thing we'd found, but they were slow and didn't get completely in the pores, so you never got that new look. This is the first thing that has restored the grout to brand new condition.

[cx]

Welcome, Sorka. :)

If you tried linking a photo, it didn't work because we have an anti-spam feature that doesn't permit links until you have ten or more posts. The size restriction for attached photos isn't usually too limiting. And we agree, pichers are good. We like pichers.

That cleaner does a good job. Lotta peoples hereabouts likely be interested in that. :)

I'll move you over to the Cleaning, Sealing & Restoration forum to see if we get any more recommendations or comments.

If you find a company that makes a grout sealer that's guaranteed for 20 years, I suggest the truth is not with them. Some of the high-end manufacturers will tell you theirs will last 3 to 5 years on an interior application, and that's about the best you can hope for on today's market. Indeed, with frequent cleaning, you should look to the low end of that scale. Or lower.

In our store you'll find StoneTech Professional products. Their Heavy Duty Grout Sealer might be best for your application. Water-based, easy to apply.

Tell us more specifically what your tile is, and our gurus can give you a better idea whether it's likely to accept a penetrating sealer at all. I think you surely don't wanna try any kind of topical product on that kinda tile, though.

My opinion; worth price charged.

[bmwpower]

Cool. Can you provide the brand/model/link, etc to this cleaner? Thx.

[Chris the Rep]

Let's back up a step...what type of tile is this? Glazed or unglazed?

Chris

[sorka]

How do I tell? It doesn't have any sheen to it. It is a completely flat tile. I think the photo mostly shows that.

[sorka]

After some more research, I've determined that it is a glazed, but flat ceramic tile. The tile itself is a yellowish orange with a light glazing ontop that is about a millimeter thick.

I also spoke with tech support at miracle and they told me that none of their products would seal my tile because it's non porous. Is this true? If so, why is it so difficult to clean the tile when it gets even a hint of dirt? We have to scrub and scrub. Is there no impregnator that will seal and repell dirt?

[bmwpower]

That might be true, but I just got done sealing subway tile with SuperSeal. Even though I wiped everything off the glazed tiles, water beads up on the tile like you would not believe. I'm assuming this will not last and the sealer residue will eventually wear away...who knows.

[sorka]

So far, all of my research has only turned up links saying that glazed ceramic tile should not be sealed because the glazed layer which is made out of glass is not porous.

But, then why doesn't my tile have a sheen if it's got a glass layer on top. And secondly, if it's glass on top, then it is very porous as glass is very porous and seals will with Silicon, hence rainx for glass repells dirt and moister nicely.

So I'm more confused than ever.

[Lou Noble]

You dont have to seal these tiles because they have a glaze on them from the oven that they are heated in. also they are pretty dense too, so stains for the most part wont penetrate them.

It is a good idea to seal the grout though... this makes clean up easier.

[sorka]

Is that "don't have to" or "can't"? I'm not happy with how difficult it is to clean the dirt off the tiles. We basically have to hand scrub the smudges off. Regular mopping won't even touch it.

I was really hoping there would be a sealer that would help repel the dirt and at least make cleanup on par with a polished floor covering.

[Lou Noble]

you dont have to... it wont make a difference in the clean up of your stone because it wont be able to get pass the glaze.

What kind of cleaner are you using to clean your stone, that is more important than the sealer you use.

[sorka]

We stopped using all the various cleaners we used to use and now use Mr Clean Magic erasors as they are the only thing that has ever gotten the dirt off. Before that, we tried a whole host of tile specific cleaners from HD and Lowes.


So again, if the glaze is actually glass, why doesn't it have a sheen and if it's glass then why wouldn't a sealer work as glass is *very* porous, or is it that silicon penetrates far easier than acrylic based sealers and if so.....

why wouldn't I use rainx or equivalent on just the tiles?

There's something I'm clearly missing here. My experience says that for glass, you use silicon to repell water and dirt.

[sorka]

Even stranger, I just looked at Miracle's website it specifically says that 511 impregnator and 511 H20 are for glazed ceramic tile. However, when I spoke to tech support today at Miracle, they said none of their products could be used on glazed ceramic tile.

[Davestone]

Impregnating sealers must be soaked in to work,Topical sealers will work on top, but they wear,and show traffic patterns eventually,but if you want to try a pretty good product,How about this...http://www.aqua-mix.com/family.asp?fam_id=ZAFH&CAT=AQTL&UPSCAT=&TRAIL=MAINAQTL%2C

[sorka]

So will an impregnating sealer like original 511 seal glazed ceramic tile and make it more resistant to staining from dirt? And if so, will it last?

I think the issue here is that my "glazed" tile is not shiney or smooth. It's got a nice rough feel to it like a stone, but it is glazed. I'm certain this is why it doesn't repell dirt very well.

[sorka]

OK, just called Miracle back and again and spoke with someone else who said that he didn't know who I spoke with before, but they were completely wrong and that impregnator *will* seal glazed ceramic tile. It just won't require as much because it's not *as* porous as unglazed tile.

He also said that the H2O based version is easier to apply, but that the solvent based version will last longer.

[cx]

Even stranger, I just looked at Miracle's website it specifically says that 511 impregnator and 511 H20 are for glazed ceramic tile. However, when I spoke to tech support today at Miracle, they said none of their products could be used on glazed ceramic tile. So will an impregnating sealer like original 511 seal glazed ceramic tile and make it more resistant to staining from dirt? And if so, will it last?I think at some point, Sorka, you're gonna hafta believe one of the answers you're getting. I looked at the Miracle specs (http://www.miraclesealants.com/download/it_sealing_specs.pdf) and didn't see glazed tiles listed there. I did see cementitious grout, though.

My opinion; worth price charged.

[sorka]

It's right there on their website for 511 Impregnator and in the directions pdf.

WATER, STAIN & SLIP PROTECTION FOR:

• Sanded Grout
• Quarry Tile
• Ceramic Tile
• Glazed Tile
• Porcelain Tile
• Polished Granite
• Polished Marble
• Terrazzo • Concrete
• Brick
• Stucco
• Slate • Quartz
• Travertine
• Agglomerate

http://www.miraclesealants.com/s_511_impregnator.html

It's one of the first applications listed "glazed tile" which is why I called Miracle back and got the completely totally different answer of "yes of course it will seal glazed tile who told you it wouldn't" answer.

But isn't there anyone here with experience that knows?• Glazed Tile

[sorka]

Now that I can post links, here's a better photo:

http://alana.smugmug.com/photos/80615137-L.jpg

[mollyDI-Try]

That grout that has been cleaned looks amazing. What brand/type of vapor cleaner did you use?
Thanks,
Molly

[sorka]

I used a Vapor Clean Products TR5 which is the USA distributor(Vapor Clean) name for it.

The important thing is it's a 65 PSI 302 F unit. Most are 58 PSI and I'll tell if I turn the pressure down to 58 PSI it doesn't work anywhere near as fast or well(tradeoff) as 65. Makes me wonder if I should have popped the extra money for a 70 psi unit, but this is good and cleans pretty fast, but not fast enough for monthly cleanings. It will still take me a one or two full days to clean all of our tile.

[sorka]

I posted this as a thread last night in this section and somehow it got merged into another completely unrelated thread in the cleaning and restoring section. Bizarre.

Is the stamp shown in this photo the PEI number?
The tile says "Made in Turkey". In the center of the phone below it says P 5 with the 5 below the P. To the right a few inches, it says 1 TM with the TM below the 1.

http://alana.smugmug.com/photos/81150492-L-1.jpg
http://alana.smugmug.com/photos/81150391-L-1.jpg

This is an extra tile from a stack in our attack that was there when we bought the house.

[cx]

No big mystery, Sorka, I merged it with your ongoing thread about the same tile in the Cleaning, Sealing and Restoration thread since it was apparently the same tile and the same topic (the tile surface). If we keep all the questions about the project here, we'll avoid duplication of effort and confusion. :)

[sorka]

The question had *nothing* to do with tile cleaning and restoring.

What you did was take a completely different issue(not related to my previous question) bury it here in a dead thread in a section that is barely looked at.

My question is how to determine the PEI rating of a tile, not how to clean it.

[sorka]

Please don't move this thread again. It has nothing to do with my sealing question in the cleaning and restoring section. Just because it's the same tile doesn't make it the same project.

Can anyone tell from the stamp on this tile what the PEI rating is?

Again, this is not a sealing, cleaning, or restoring question, just a question about PEI ratings.

http://alana.smugmug.com/photos/81150492-L-1.jpg

[sorka]

What's even worse is that by moving this thread to the cleaning and restoring section, anyone else in the future who comes to search for answers on PEI ratings won't find this and any responses and if it's close enough to their own question and answer, they'll miss and post another thread when search could have helped them first.

[MasterGranite]

Is the stamp shown in this photo the PEI number?
The tile says "Made in Turkey". In the center of the phone below it says P 5 with the 5 below the P. To the right a few inches, it says 1 TM with the TM below the 1.

This looks to be ceramic and most ceramic is either PEI 4 or 3,there are a few exceptions but not many. So I doubt that is the PEI rating.

[kevjob]

look on the box the pei and batch number should be there

[sorka]

Sorry, I'd mentioned this the first time I started this thread and it got moved, but these are spare tiles for a house we bought. They were in the attick and there is not box unfortunately, otherwise this would have been easy.

[sorka]

Back to the topic at hand. For anyone reading the thread, please skip bast the PEI stuff as it was never supposed to be here.

Went to a local tile supply today and we applied 511 impregnator to the a quarter of the tile. It was *all* abosrbed. After 4 minutes, there was no excess to wipe off but we buffed it anyways and applied a second coat. 4 minutes later it had all be abosbed again.


Prior to application straight water didn't aborb but didn't bead up either. I'll test this section in 24 hours with water and dirt.

I also coated a quarter of the tile with silicon(rainx). That portion instantly repells all water and dirt. Water just beads up like it does on a windshield. The tile guy said that silicon turns yellow in UV light which is why I shouldn't use rainx. But none of our tile gets direct sunlight. Is rainx still a bad idea?

Nevertheless, if 511 protects as well, I'll use it for both the tile and grout.

Really surprised how much the glazed surface soaked up that sealer.

[jadnashua]

WIthout the brand and model or special test equipment, it would be very difficult to tell. Basically, nearly impossible.

[flatfloor]

I'm slightly color blind but isn't there something on the tiles, second row from the top middle two tiles?

What do you want to use them for?

[Lou Noble]

for this job, all you need to do is seal the grout lines... how long was the sealer on the stone before it "absorbed" into the tile?
Silicone will rest on the top of the tile and last for a little while but will not go into the stone. Like glass this tile is very dense and will not take an impregnator, i think the sealer just dried up and didnt absorb...

Ive done alot of this kind of work and never sealed a glazed tile and never had any problems with that sort of thing.

[doitright]

Hi Sorka :)

I'm familiar with the difficulty of maintaining various ceramic products. There are some products that may work for you, but will be short lived unless you are willing to properly maintain them.

One product that I believe will help is Prosoco's SLX 100. It is a neat silane that permits deep penetration into the surface. While you have a glazed surface, the roughness of texture should allow this product to be effective. The surface needs to remain wet with product for at least one minute, then wiped off. This will allow the single application for the tile and grout that you are looking for. It will need to be maintained with Prosoco's Rinseless Cleaner, which is a concentrated neutral pH cleaner, that when properly mixed, requires no rinsing. The wash bucket needs to be changed when it becomes cloudy.

The SLX 100 will not give the guarantee that you are looking for. When the water no longer beads, does not mean the sealer is no longer working. When the grout remains dark after washing for an extended period of time, is a sign that reapplication is necessary.

Dry Treat offers a sealing system with a 15 year guarantee when applied by a liscensed applicator. It will only be effective on your grout. I am not familiar enough with this product to know if will have any effect on your glazed tiles.

[sorka]

"how long was the sealer on the stone before it "absorbed" into the tile?"

4 minutes as I had just stated in the previous post.

"Went to a local tile supply today and we applied 511 impregnator to the a quarter of the tile. It was *all* abosrbed. After 4 minutes, there was no excess to wipe off but we buffed it anyways and applied a second coat. 4 minutes later it had all been abosbed again."

At any rate I have my answer. Since glass is very porous, it doesn't come as a surprise that it takes the sealer nor should it as Miracle 511 says both on their website and on the phone that "glazed tile" is one of the applications.

[sorka]

Yup. The first time I posted the thread(before it got moved to the cleaning and restoring section...go figure), I had spelled it out.

The left says P 5 and the right says 1 TM

[sorka]

These are installed in about 2000 square feet of our house(kitchen, living room, hallways, and bathrooms.

The photo is of a spare tile from a stack in our attic.

[jadnashua]

Those stamps could be lot numbers, date codes, who knows. It could indicate that it is a PEI 5 tile, too. WIthout knowing the manufacturer and model, it is really difficult to tell what the PEI is. If you could sacrifice a tile, you might get a lab to tell you, but that would probably be difficult too.

[doitright]

Hi Sorka :)

No matter what product you decide to use, make sure you do a TEST area first. The surface tension for water is much different than that of an impregnator.

After the 511 has been "absorbed", have you allowed it to dry overnight, then put water on top of the sealed area? :shades:

Does it bead? Does it react differently than the unsealed area?

[sorka]

Not important enough to sacrifice a tile. I was curious. The tile floor is 8 years old and no tile has ever cracked or chipped despite dropping heavy metal pans and other objects on the edges of tiles. The tile place I went to today didn't know either but he guessed based on his experience that it looked like about a 3, but honestly I don't know how he'd tell by physical examination.

[sorka]

Yes, that's what I'll be trying tomorrow as the sealer needs at least 24 hours to cure.

I'll be performing several tests first with water, and then with dirt and other staining materials. I'll then use the vapor cleaner which I used to blast the grout out to see how easily the rainx and 511 are removed with 280 superheated steam at 65 psi.

The owner of the tile shop I visited today wasn't surprised at all. He said many glazed tiles are quite porous some more than others depending on the dyes that are are used when fired. Some of the dyes react gasously and making it more porous than plain old glass.

[Mike2]

Hi sorka.

Tiles having a PEI Rating of 5 are extremely dense. These tiles will withstand cracking, chipping, and or breaking more that tiles with a lower density. AND as the density of a tile goes, so goes its rate of absorbing moisture. A higher density will provide for a lower absorption rate. Likewise, a higher density/low absorption rate will provide for ease of maintenance and cleaning.

The background information I read in your other thread suggests to me your tiles are not at the PEI 5 level. Your tiles are hard to clean, right? And given that experimental application of 511 sealer you found that it was all absorbed within minutes. Even the second coat was absorbed. All this suggest to me a ceramic tile rather low on the density scale and therefore, low on the PEI scale. I agree with the tile guy betting that tile of yours is closer to a PEI Rating of 3.

;)

[bbcamp]

(before it got moved to the cleaning and restoring section...go figure),

That's the 3rd time you mentioned moving your thread. We appreciate your concern for visibility, but it's begining to sound like a broken record.

[T_Hulse]

Sorka did you see that Mike2 was able to answer your question using information from your other thread? That's why we like to keep them together & why it was moved. It helps to get you more & better answers, and that is why I'm recombining your threads. One project = one thread.
Perhaps you should let us run our forum in the way we feel will help you the most. Remember this service is free & we're volunteers. If you don't appreciate this free service, well ...

We're just glad to have you here. I hope you found the answers you wanted. :)

[sorka]

I think what you really mean is one floor == one thread regardless of topic of discussion.

My PEI question had nothing to do with my cleaning project.

Perhaps the existing policy is why it was so difficult for me to find answers through search as topics are buried or in the wrong threads all together.

But hey, if that's the policy....

[Davestone]

You're wrong,as Mike pointed out, it is directly related to the success or failure of your sealing mission.I gave you two links to sealers that are specifically for adding a sheen to tile, and sealing at the same time.If you had read them and tried that sealer, this thread would be done, and your tile would be sealed and i would be answering someone elses problem.If you type in a word in search it will bring up that word in every post ever...that's why we spelled library liberry.We like to say this is the friendliest diy site on the web,but we as a group are tired of being pushed around in trying to do nothing but help people. :bow:

[Davy]

Hi Sorka, I agree about keeping this on one thread, It's all about your tile/floor even if you have 15 more questions about it. Start another thread if you ask questions about your shower. :)

Glazed tiles have different textures, the matte and rough textures will grab dirt easier than a slick glaze will. No sealer will repell dirt 100% on tile or grout like you are wanting. Sanded grout will get dirty from normal traffic, sealed or not. A sealed grout may be easier to clean depending on the sealer and how long the sealer has been down. I've often told this to homeowners, spill coffee on unsealed grout and it will stain, spill coffee on a sealed joint and it will give you time to get it cleaned up. Leave the coffee on a sealed joint for three days and it will probably stain it, especially on a light colored grout. Dirt and food will get in the pores, sealed or not. If the sealer is good and recently applied, it may make cleaning easier. :)

[sorka]

The sealer worked great initially, but I wanted to really test it. I have a tile one quarter of which was sealed with rainx, one quarter with 511 impregnator, and the other half left unsealed.

After 72 hours, I smeared dirt, clay, wine, and chocolate. Nothing bonded to the rainx section. In fact, it almost all came off with just blowing and tipping. The 511 section was almost as good but required rinsing to get everything off. The unsealed section required washing with a spunge. We use Mr Clean Magic erasors which pretty much get anything off.

So at that point the 511 was working great. But it wasn't to last, after scrubbing the entire tile with a Mr Clean and water for about a minute, I retested the same staining materials. The unsealed and rainx sections behaved as before, but the 511 section didn't work as well as it had and the water was no longer beading up as well either. After washing again with just the sponge and water for a while, the 511 section stopped alltogether and started behaving like the unsealed section. The rainx continued to completely repell everything thrown at it. Finally it it with the vapor cleaner, detergent, and more scrubbing for a good 10 minutes straight and it remained unphased. Nothing I could do would get rid of the rainx.

These results were unexpected given how much the glazed surface seemed to absorb the sealer.

Now the sealer on the tile may not be meant to survive a Mr Clean Magic Erasor spunge. They are microspically very abrasive but won't scratch glass. Maybe a regular mop with a nuetral ph cleaner might not strip the sealer, but the rainx section is just so much more bullet proof I don't see why I shouldn't use it instead for the tile. Since this tile is not exposed to sunlight, I shouldn't have to worry about yellowing over time.

So my new plan is to use 511 to seal the grout(I bought a grout wand which dispensers sealer from a resevoir into the grout and to use a silicon based sealer on the glazed surface.

Now if I'm only sealing the grout with 511, should I instead move to a porous plus penetrating rather than the regular penetrating sealer?

[Davy]

The grout will soak in some but I wouldn't say it's highly porus. I would use the regular 511 sealer if that's what you already have.

You have to keep in mind that these tile sealers are meant to seal tile from stains and yet still breathe. I doubt the rain-x will breathe, which is important in some situations like showers, may work fine on your floor though. :)

[doitright]

Hi Sorka :)

Interesting results. Working with RainX on clear glass can be a challenge, but glazed tile should not be a concern (as far as streaking).

Glazed tiles aren't meant to breath, so using RainX on them shouldn't be an issue. Since your tiles are so textured, surface wear shouldn't be an issue.

I agree with Davy to just go ahead and use the 511 that you have on the grout.

Keep us posted with the success or failure of your application of RainX.

[sorka]

Good. Because I already bought the gallon of regular 511 and now I won't have to return it.

I'll report back on results.

[flatfloor]

I wonder what a gallon of RainX would cost?

[sorka]

Isn't there a silicon sealer out there other than rainx sold in larger quantities? It will take about 4 bottles of rainx to do 1200 sq feet

[flatfloor]

That's why I asked. Try a janitorial supply house.

[Davy]

I believe HMK sealers are silicone based. I have used their S-34 a few times, very good sealer. It's hard to find in my area or I'd use it more. :)

[doitright]

Hi Sorka :)

I have previously posted here (http://johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=416028&postcount=39) a sealer that you are asking for (this one being a neat silane). If you change products from the RainX, realize you need to perfrom your tests all over again.