Gitmo and the Supreme Court

[Scooter]

Any thoughts on this one?

My thought was always to try to bastards, shoot them, imprison them or let them go. But I was never very comfortable with the limbo land imprisonment that was practiced.

Any military court martial would be a kangaroo court that should suit the Administration--I don't understand why it was used, and why they risked this show down.

The real hero of the story is the 50 year old JAG lawyer that took on the Adminstration and wom.

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[Dave Taylor]

It's some kinda commentary when the "Three Word Story" thread git's higher billing than GITMO.

Mebbe we should should starts' "A Four Word Story" thread. Whadda-ya think?

It's hell to git's old.

[Madison Mike]

I'm with you, Scooter. We're a nation of laws that should apply to everyone. I don't like a lot of what the Bush regime is up to. Giving politicians the ability to declare people not under the protection of our laws sets a really dangerous precedent. I'm already uncomfortable with the domestic spying stuff... Attaboy to the JAG officer who stood up for what's right.

[jdm]

I think people are to disgusted to even discuss it. Bush does exactly what he wants to, and doesn't give a damn what anyone who disagrees thinks, be it the Supreme Court, Congress, the American people, or the rest of the world.

[Mountain Tile]

I disagree with you guys, people forget these are bad guys(al-queda). they kill innocent women and children purposely. They chop peoples heads off while they're still alive. They are not americans, they are the enemy, they dont deserve the same rights as us. the only thing they deserve is the right to die. people in this country better wake up. osama is in pakistan right now laughing at us. people forget too quickly, I remember 911 like it was yeserday. who do you think we are fighting in iraq. zarquawi was a jordanian fighing for al-queda in iraq. i guess he should of had some rights too if we had captured him. George Bush does the best he can to protect us and he is crucified by the left wing media. bill clinton was banging interns in the oval office and he is forgiven. :bang: I thank god for George Bush and this might be a set back for him but i'm sure he will find a way to continue to protect us. but hey this is just my opinion :usflag:

[Scooter]

Actually the Plaintiff, Hamad I think was his name was the driver for Osama. The Court's opinion noted that no one in the Administration could recite any facts which he allegedly did which would be a crime.

Did he drive around OBL? Yep.

Is that a crime? Nope.

Does he hate America? Yep

Is that a crime? Nope

When the Administration's lawyer was specifically asked, he could identify a SINGLE crime that the Plaintiff was alleged to have committed. Not a single bombing. No planning of 9/11. Nothing. All this guy did was drive around OBL.

Does he deserve to be questioned? You bettcha. For a long time? You betcha. But after 4 years of questioning, the time has come to either charge the clown or turn him loose.

So I agree with Mountain Tile in principal, but one has to identify the bad guys then charge them or let them go. And thats the point of the Court's opinion to charge them or let them go. And I specifically agree that if the person has done bad things, by all means imprison them for a very very long time.

But this wasn't the case with Driving Miss Daisy Hamada

[Mountain Tile]

hey scooter, i can understand your point of view. i just feel that if this guy was oamas bodygaurd or driver or whatever he does not deserve the same rights as us, if they wanna keep him around for a few more years without a trial who cares? these guys are evil, they dont play by the same rules so why should we? actually we can't. they use our system against us. there is justice and there is right from wrong. to do whatever we have to in order to defeat the enemy is right. to not stick together in a time of war is wrong. freedoms and rights are for us, not for the enemy. if this guy was an american citizen then i would have a problem with holding him without a trial, but he is not, he is the enemy.

[flatfloor]

I think he should be returned post haste right into Osam's lap. Strapped to one of those drones with a bomb load. :D

[jvcstone]

Chuck,
I suppose that if the shoe were on the other foot, and it were some of our guys, the same rules should then apply.
There are international rules that deal with captured combatants, and they are there to protect the human rights of both sides. On the other hand, I have read that over 50% of the gitmo prisoners had absolutly nothing to do with either alqueda or the taliban, and only about 8% are known terrorist subjects. There are a lot of guys down there because they just happened to have been in the wrong place at the wrong time, (like in their homes, or businesses), and by virtue of taking them half way around the world, we have infact intensified the hatred of America that seems to be sweeping across the planet.

I've always been told that two wrongs do not make a right, and too many of this administrations actions have been flat out wrong.

JVC

[Mountain Tile]

Dear John do you really believe these people were just hanging around their homes or business are you kidding me. sure glad your not responsible for protecting us from terrorist. chuck's better half :bonk:

[jd77]

by virtue of taking them half way around the world, we have infact intensified the hatred of America that seems to be sweeping across the planet.

Would people love us more if we just let the poor mistreated victims go? I think not.

They will hate us no matter what. Those who seek to appease are mocked and scorned by the haters.

Aren't we in this "war on terror" to free those that are oppressed by terrorists and protect our own society? No way we can make everyone happy.

No way.

[jvcstone]

For the life of me, I cannot understand how we can win a war on terror when our actions create ripe conditions for the growth of terrorism. For one thing, just like the famous war on drugs, and the war on poverty, the war on terror is a no win proposition. For another thing, there have been terrorists amongst us for thousands of years, although, depending on ones point of view, they can also be called freedom fighters or revolutionarys or even a couple of hundred years ago --patriots.

In my opinion, Bush has gotten us into a mess that is going to be hard to get out of. Going into afganistan after binladen and even the taliban government was the right thing to do. Why didn't the job get finished?? Because of other hidden agendas is why. Unwrap yourselves from in the flag, and look seriously what all of this is doing to the quality of life our children and childrens children will have. Someone is going to pay the fiddler, long after the dance is done.

At gitmo, Human beings have been treated as something less, and that has never been the official american way. (although unofficially, we've been known to do some rather nasty stuff). If our government cannot bring any charges against some of these prisoners, they should be repatrioted. And I repeat, that a good number of them should never have been there in the first place.

JVC

[jd77]

For the life of me, I cannot understand how we can win a war on terror when our actions create ripe conditions for the growth of terrorism

What would you suggest we do?

[tileguytodd]

OK, so which one of ya'll wants to run for president and fix everything??? ;)

[Mountain Tile]

amen todd. :clap1:

[John Bridge]

Not at GITMO but elsewhere American citizens have been held for months and years without being charged and whithout access to lawyers. Crud balls? Probably, but Americans nonetheless.

If this is a war, and if the detainees at Guantanamo are fighters, fine. Otherwise, charge them, try them or cut them loose.

[John Corley]

The debate is this

They are not "uniformed" the rules don't apply to them. I agree we need to come up with something that applys to them or kill them or let them go.

Those detainees at gitmo know exactly what they are doing. They are playing the american people and the media like a fiddle.

[jvcstone]

What would you suggest we do?

JD,

I don't believe that there are any simple solutions. What I do know is that doing the same thing over and over expecting different results is a definition of insanity. Didn't work for us in Vietnam or Korea, the Russians, and now us in afghanistan, the israelis against the palestinians, the Romans against the maccabees etc etc etc.

My suggestion as a first step towards world peace would be to utilize the vast amounts of money we now expend on waging war in an effort to elevate the human condition world wide. Latest figure is that 2 billion per week is going towards this war effort. Now watch how the costs escalate in the immediate future as all that equipment needs to be replaced.

2 BILLION per week. I suspect if we chose to expend even a 1/10 of that on humanitarian issues--hunger, disease, poverty, non-polluting energy solutions-- on an on going basis, that would bring a quicker end to terrorism than what we are doing now. Terrorism (and rebellion) is bred from misery, despair, and hopelessness, and there are hundreds of places in the world today where that is the condition. If we feel it is our duty to save the world, those are the issues that need attacking. Guys like bin laden can only operate if the can recruit, and happy, well fed, satisfied people just won't join up. Probably not that simplistic, but a start.

Another thing would be to take a hint from some of the more "civilized" nations, and essentially ignore the terrorist and his activities. The red brigade & Germany, IRA & England, the Basque & Spain, the weather underground and black panthers & the USA to name a few have essentially dried on the vine because they were robbed of the one thing they needed to win---creating terror. Sure bombs went off, and people died, but society went about it's business without major interruption. Here, since 9-11, on the other hand, we have willingly given up many of our "freedoms", elevated the office of president to that of emperor and "big Brother" , handed our grand kids future to the "military-industrial complex" (which we were once upon a time warned against doing), preparing every little town across the land for attack, and other wise empowered Bin Laden and crew. So who's the winner.

The concept of spreading democracy across the world might be a noble cause. Too bad we have a reputation for destabilizing democratically elected governments because they aren't the "right people" Maybe we should begin democracy at home--in a truly democratic election, George Bush lost to Al Gore. In a democracy, majority rules- no and, ifs, or buts.

Sorry guys and gals for writing a book. I guess the simplest answer to the what would you suggest question is something different. Considering the wealth, power, and prestige (all rapidly fading away, unfortunately) of the United States, I would think that we could do much more than contribute to the growing global insanity.

JVC

PS---Mr. Bridge, I really do appreciate the forum you provide, and the chance for so many diverse points of view to be expressed in a civil and "gentile" manner, and I hope I've not over stepped the bounds.

[Steven Hauser]

Hi JVC,
Poetic.

I agree that holding anyone that hasn't done anything wrong is terrible and should not happen.

However, It iseems to me you are applying our social mores and values to others that do not possess the same views on inalienable rights and freedoms.

Case in point. Please google or search the internet for the youth of Saudi Arabia that are not disenfranchised per se. They are bored and only getting degrees in things like religious studies. They embrace the same hatred and make good Muhajadin soldiers.

This disaffected youth is being tapped for the usual youthful passion and are fed gray scale and black information about the USA and its citizens. They learn from watching TV that interprets us as depraved, self oriented people as a group. The do not live in a diverse society like we do so they generalize about all of us. Of course they are wrong.

Point is this.

Although, I don't care for what has happened with the war on terror, I know if we tried to do it the way you described, we would be the United States of Someone else. Couoldn't let that happen. :shake:

Happy Fourth and God bless America.

:)

[jvcstone]

AH, Steven.

Of course you are right about the disenchanted youth of Saudi Arabia.
I was thinking about that as I wrote, and, I suspect that they are lacking in something- hence unsatisfied. Bored little rich kids cause more than a little trouble here too. :shake:

I'm under no illusion that we could solve the worlds woes with our economic might any more than with our military might. However, I believe that momma nature has some rough s**t ahead for us, and it's about time we learned to pull together as a species if we are to survive as a species. But then again, maybe the universe doesn't really need or want our kind around anymore. :x:
JVC

[Steven Hauser]

hmmm.. we never can sustain a true argument JVC, and I've also wondered on several occaisions why we can't pull together. I've been stumped so have taken to say based on biblical based observations that we were sent to speak different languages and have different interpretations as punishment in the Old Testament and for the last few thousand years we haven't gotten any better so probably won't get the hall pass on peace and tranquility in this life.

You have your children and grandchildren now. amd I've got mine as well. We may as well keep passing on the hope for future generations while we try and keep the present from eliminating that very possibility.

Big Brother here is wrong,and we can change that in the coming elections, but let's not forget that there are assholes who kill people in the name of their faith. They should not be allowed to change our views of freedom. Now we did ignore them and mind our business, and they keep bringing the fight to us. This is not to say that the US hasn't made greivous mistakes, but it is to say that the poor and oppressed in the part of the world that hate us should have focused on how clean their laundry is. They didn't and we now have what we have. A situation that we can't leave but don't want to be in either.

We can generalize this all over the world.

My .02 :)

[jvcstone]

hmmm.. we never can sustain a true argument JVC,

Think I would prefer "discussion" ;) Spend enough time arguing with myself these days.

Happy Independence Day to you and yours Steven,
same for everyone else.

Back to the ward now.
JVC

[John Bridge]

Nothing wrong with the term "argument," and I'll argue about that. ;)

I'm halfway there. I don't believe that detainees at Guantanamo have the same rights under our constitution as American citizens, just like foreigners in this country don't have quite the same rights as citizens. But everyone, in my view, has the right to "due process," whatever that happens to be. All I'm saying is that the detainees should at least be accused of something, and that in turn would lead to due process. And I repeat, everyone, scum or otherwise, is entitled to due process.