Gritz' shower project (NEW PROBLEM WITH BLEEDING?)

[Gritz]

One of the jb's web page suggests using brick or cement block for creating a shower bench,
Wasn't sure if I had room in a 4x4 shower for a small bench seat, any thoughts? How would I go about building a corner shower seat? I was going to build it from PT, then hardiback the vertical and concrete the seat. I was also planning on using two- 2x4 concrete landscape (things) stacked for the shower curb, is this a good idea? Thank you...

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[JTG]

Gritz
Look in the Liberry (link above) you will find pictures etec for the bench you would like. There is room in the shower. What you need to do is decide yourself if it is going to take up to much room.
You can do the curb with those 2x4's make sure they are set into mortar.
Good luck
JTG

[Gritz]

Hey, you guys are great and your sense of humor keeps the reading lively. I have only two questions for now. When I took up the tiled shower floor (concrete slab foundation) in two corners of the concrete shower floor there wasn't any concrete, only dirt. Yep, I couldn't believe it. Each corner area is about 16" x 12". Is it o.k. to just fill it in with deck mud when constructing the pre-slope? Second question, do you install the bottom row of wall tiles before the top layer of deck mud is formed or after? Thanks, Robin

[JTG]

Robin
How deep is the area you are going to fill? Deck mud used for the preslope should be ok.
You will hear from the collected crew here that some do and some don't and some have sometimes put tile on the walls then pour and final lift of mud pan. If you do it that way and you are lucky to have the grout joint at height of lift if makes it real easy to determine where the mud does. If you do it this way I would grout prior to doing the deck mud lift.
Good luck
JTG

[Gritz]

The deepest part of the hole is 1 1/2". I am just puzzled as to why I'm missing the concrete to begin with. Also, at first I couldn't figure out all the talk about weep holes and bolts ect. My drain has a PVC pipe that comes up and there is another PVC flanged piece with the silver plate attached to it and it just slid over the pipe coming from the floor. Thats all their was to the drain. We had the house built by a very large homebuilder in SW Fla. 12 years ago. Crazy huh!? Robin

[bbcamp]

Robin, lots of showers build on slab-on-grade construction were built without a pan, and therefore, without a clamping drain. We think it is poor economy because that method usually results in mold or termite problems.

[Gritz]

Hi everyone, I just read through the doorless shower threads but wanted to know your opinion on whether a 48x48 doorless shower would be possible? The shower stall is on recessed concrete slab and the floor outside the shower is tiled, however the walls outside the shower are drywall. The stall is three 48" walls and a 7' ceiling although we are considering taking out the drop down ceiling over the shower to gain an extra 11 in. in height. The shower head is 6'7" high and located on the west wall. The drain is 17" from the west wall, 17" from the north wall, 29" from the east wall and 23" from the south curb (no wall) We would also like to add a corner seat. Umm, I don't think it matters but the east wall is framed as a pocket door and on the south curb, (no wall) the toilet seat is 31" from the curb. The other two walls are concrete block. Also, there isn't any ceiling thingy, gosh, you know the thing that pulls moisture out of the air? Humidity is unfortunately an issue here in SW Fla. Thanks for all the great advice. Robin

[scottg]

hi robin,
i'm not a pro, but here's my two cents worth...
1) i think you're going to need an exhaust fan

2) i don't think 4 x 4 is large enough for a doorless shower. i remember reading somewhere that it shouldn't be less than 6' from the shower head.

3) you also need to make sure your ceiling is ok for a wet environment like a shower, you mentioned a drop in style which typically would not be well suited for a shower.

good luck with the project. you'll get great advise regarding all things tile on this site!

[John Bridge]

Hi Robin,

Lots of people who build doorless showers don't mind wiping up a bit after using them. I think in a shower the size of yours you should just be aware of that and then go ahead and build it. Build it so a door can be added later, though, just in case. ;)

[EEEO]

I've never done a doorless 4'x4', but if you imagine a 5' tub/shower, you don't hardly get any splash past about 3 1/2' (the long way). I would try it but frame it down a bit so your doorway is on one side or the other and only the minimum of what you need to get in the shower.

[jdm]

That shower wall that contains a pocket door may be way too flexible to tile.

Is it a standard pocket door kit?

[NVC]

Hi Robin,

From what I'm 'seeing' (hard for me to see w/o floor plan or pitcher) I think you can get away with it, because of the resecessed slab.

I'd add the door in the future option like J.B. recommended.

I'd float the pocket door wall too. As JDM mentioned, pocket doors are 'squiggley' (my words added :)) and shooting a nail or a screw into one can render them scarred or . . . immovable.

The dropped ceiling was probably added to help with the steam because of the lack of an exhaust fan. (moisture condenses easier on a lower ceiling) so adding one if you eliminate the drop-ceiling is a good suggestion also.

hope this helps,
Mark

[Gritz]

Not sure if a shower door would be possible cause of limited clearance to the toilet. If it doesn't work I can always go back to a shower curtain. I should have mentioned that 20" of the wall where the pocket door is, is a stud wall so that does help to stabalize that wall but now knowing that, should I do anything else to further stabalize it? So,the exhaust fan should go above the shower and not just in the room? Do they make an exhaust fan/ light combo, cause I need some light in the shower? Gotta see to shave my legs. Grin! Robin

[EEEO]

You can have custom shower doors made, swinging or bypass. 4' should be enough to have two 2' bypass doors eliminating any clearance issues with the toilet.

[Gritz]

I really need your help. I am so overwhelmed, I've been tile shopping and didn't find anything. I can't even find any pictures on the internet or in mags. of bathrooms that I like, it seemed everything was beiges/tans. My bedroom & masterbath are what I would call a "country cottage" look, distressed white furniture, pastel quilts and wall colors like pale green and blues. I feel like a fish out of water and had no idea it was going to be this hard. I don't want the subway tile look, nor mosiacs, I also don't like the look of the smooth surface tiles. I had thought I would be able to find a 12 x 12 white textured tile for the walls and then something as an accent border in blues & greens. I did find a 16" white textured tile but not sure if I can use that large of a tile in a 48 x 48 shower? I loved the stone type borders but again all beige colors. There was one like cut pebbles that had some blues and gray in it but not any white to compliment the tile. I desperetely need any advice or recommendations ya'll can give me. Thanks again, Robin

[bbcamp]

Robin, relax! Shopping is supposed to be fun! :D

You can use those big tiles in your shower. The trend is going toward using big tiles to reduce the amount of grout lines, so your shower will be right out of Architect's Digest.

Another thing, if you are limiting your search to wall tile, don't. Floor tiles can be used on the walls, too.

So, take your time deciding on what you want, and keep looking. It's out there, somewhere.

[geniescience]

Robin

Seems you like texture. And color.

Geography and climate determine a lot of our choices. Where are you geographically? How much sunlight does your to-be-tiled space get?

All tile is made of earth to start with. Clay. With a glaze on top. Higher temperatures produce more like porcelain. Look at your kitchen stuff, earthenware, fine china, tea cups, mugs, bowls etc. What do you have already, and that you would like to have more of? Lower temperatures in tile production allow more fancy colors and a few special effects, but not higher quality in any other way.

Return the ball. :yummy:

[Gritz]

Ack! I now know we should have checked the walls before we put up the Hardiboard ect. I assumed (Yeah, I know what that makes me) that since this was a tear-out /reinstall project we'd be o.k. I think its about 3/8" off? Would a Running Bond layout with 12 x 12 (actual tile size is 11 3/4) tiles minimize this problem as opposed to a Jack on Jack layout? I was thinking about a 1/4 in. grout line but not sure if it should be smaller? The shower is 47" x 48" x 8' tall & has the famous mason corner seat. Thanks for any help tonight, going to try and lay tile tommorrow if my aching back cooperates. Don't know how you guys do it everyday!
Also, on the 47" back wall, I know I'll have to cut off each tile appx 3/4 in. in the right and left corners so it looks even but when I move on to the next wall would I start with a full piece of 12 x 12 tile or a 3/4 inch piece of tile?Robin

[jadnashua]

SOme say big grout lines are coming back...I prefer smaller ones, especially in a shower. The size of the grout line is somewhat determined by how consistent (rectified) the tile are. If they all appear to be the same size, then a smaller grout line is probably better. While you are checking, also check them for flatness and thickness. If they aren't warped and are the same thickness, again, a small grout line will work. You only need a big grout line if the tile are inconsistent, or you prefer the look.

[Davestone]

As long as your cut is large you may not notice.I wouldn't continue with the 3/4" piece if it's gonna show up the out of plumb situation.Then again you could skim a little thinset on there and take over half of the problem away.

[Nash]

Uhhhh... for reasons you can guess I really like BIG grout joints! :devil2:

Seriously - a running bond might work.

[Gritz]

Thanks for the quick input! All the tiles I checked are the same size and thickness 1/4".
So, regarding the Running Bond, for example, on row one I'll be trimming off appx. 3/4" the right and left corners to fit the 47" wall BUT I will NOT continue on around the adjoining wall with a 3/4" piece and will use a full piece instead. On row two, where I will be trimming off appx. 6" I will continue around the adjoining wall beginning with a 6" piece. Does that sound right so far? I had another thought, if I randomly used (no set pattern) a lighter shade of the same tile here and there, would it draw the eye there and thus less focus on the corners. Or in that small of a shower would it look to jumbled? I have it layed out on the floor with six rows up of 12x12 in a RB pattern then a 3 in" rock border topped by two rows of 6x6 tile. I still have 9 1/4" left at the top. I haven't figured that out yet, maybe three rows of 6x6?
It loks pretty good, the border looks kinda skinny though and it's not in 3-D, sooooo. What are your thoughts? Robin

[mosquito]

Sounds right so far. It also sounds like you already have a lot of different textures going into the shower, I think another color would make it awfully busy, just my opinion. I don't think you'll even notice that 3/4 inch missing off the end of a 12" tile.

[Gritz]

jennifer, would you opt for the running bond over the jack on jack?

[Shaughnn]

Robin,
Either running-bond or straight-set would work, as long as the tiles are large. Smaller tiles will deffinately exagerate out-of-plumb as the differance will be disproportiontately large when compared to the smaller tile. If you've decided on a 12" tile, you don't have anything to worry about unless there is a pattern on the tile face which would draw attention to the cuts?
For a both layouts, start with a plumb pencil line down the center of the back wall. I like to measure this from midway up the wall to avoid any flaring like you are experiencing. From that center-line, measure to the corner and transfer that measurement to your tile laid out on the floor with your desired grout joint. Is the partial piece larger or smaller than a half tile? If smaller, measure over from your center-line exactly half of a tile's width and draw another plumb pencil line. This second line will be your starting point for a straight-set layout IF the center-line leaves you with cuts which are too narrow.
One hazzard with a running-bond is that you can't make this sort of adjustment. By definition, you are almost guaranteed to have alternating courses which meet the wall with smaller-than-half tiles. Another hazzard is that you will need to do some mental acrobatics to back-engineer your starting point from the trim you plan to use at the top-outside corners. Figure out your finished height and mark it. Figure out your finished depth (the edge of the tub or showerpan) and mark it. Where these two lines intersect will be where your trim corner will be and that will determine the size of your corner cut along the top row. From that corner cut, you then measure down to determine what size cut you will have at the corner, along the rim of the tub or showerpan. Measure over to determine if you use the center-line or the off-set line for your starting point.
I think I made that confussing? Let me know if you have questions, please.
Shaughnn

[mrjetskey]

The only people who will notice a wall in the shower being off 3/4" using the pattern you describe are perhaps you because you know and perhaps a proff. tile mech.however using the tricks of the trade getting your tiles set paying attention to detail (ie.grout lines,leaving the 3/4" piece out,thicker thinset in offending area,etc.)I bet if you took a tape and check all showers for perfect square ,you wouldnt find many that were! take youre time do a good job,and you will have your own personal work of art to wake up to in the morning shower!HAVE A GREAT DAY!!

[Gritz]

Another quick question, if you're tiling inside the shower and want to continue outside the shower as in a half wall, do you tile right up to the door molding trim or leave a space? Robin

[Shaughnn]

Robin,
You will want a bead of caulking where ever your tile meets a dissimilar material like wood, vinyl or metal. Leaving a slight joint is good but you don't want a 1/4" joint of calking at the door moldings. Keep it close to a credit card's width and you'll be fine.
Shaughnn

[Gritz]

Attempted to take a few pics. in light of the fact that I've already started tiling the shower do you see is there any reasons I should NOT continue tiling half way jpeg up the wall around the room? If possible it would be nice to have a tiled shelf across the back of the toilet, but don't know how? Thanks again, Robin

[Shaughnn]

Robin,
Things look like they are going well. Keep it up! To put a shelf behind the toilet, screw a 1"x2"piece of lumber level across the wall. Then screw two identical lengths of 1"x1" to each of the side walls, keeping the tops of all three pieces level to each other. Cut 2 pieces of 3/4" plywood to fit the size of the shelf you want and screw-and-glue them together. The glue-and-screw the shelf to the wooden braces you've already installed on the walls and install CBU over that. If you want a wood face, you can install that after the tile is installed and grouted. If you want the skirt to be of tile, you can face the plywood shelf with CBU also before you begin setting tile install your tile over that.
Hope that helped?
Shaughnn

[bbcamp]

Make sure you leave plenty of room to service the toilet tank! ;)

[Gritz]

I'm putting on the stone border(rocks on a piece of mesh backing)
Do I try to leave a grout line between the rocks and the tile or just let the rocks rest on the wall tile since I'll be grouting in between the rocks???
Robin

[mrjetskey]

always try to leave even a small grout line as if it isnt filled with grout it will get filled with dirt ,etc. i would leave at least a very small grout line ,but it is up to your own taste that is what makes tiling 101 a form of art.have a great day!

[Brian in San Diego]

Robin,

I'm not a pro, but if it were me, I'd leave a space to grout between the rock and the tile. It doesn't have to be as big as the space in between the rocks, if it's a design issue. It can be as small as a 1/8 or a 1/16, but I think the grout around the entire rock will give it more strength.

Brian

[Gritz]

Great, that's what I was thinking too, esp since I'll also be tiling above the stone border also. Thanks for the quick reply! Robin

[MudMaker]

Gritz,
The guys are right, it's your call on what looks good but there should be a grout line between the feature strip and the tile. If you make it too big it will stand out and you don't want to to that. Your eye will be drawn to the grout line and not the feature strip where you want it.. :tup2:
What's your name gritz?

[Gritz]

Looked thru other posts but couldn't find an answer. First, how do you measure and which piece do you start with, the half piece or whole piece of tile when laying wall tile on a diagonal so I don't go walleye?
Tile is 5 3/4", 1/4" grout line so an even 6". THanks. Robin

[jadnashua]

Is that the dimension across the diagonal or a flat? If it is 5.75" square, the width of the diagonal is just over 8". You need that info so you can balance the design across the wall (you don't want little pieces on one side).

[Gritz]

no, sorry that was flat. The diagonal is 8 1/8."

[jadnashua]

Depending on how exact they are, it is a little over that. Note too that you need to account for the diagonal of the 1/4" gap, too. As noted, you don't want small slivers at either end or the top or bottom. So, using the rough dimensions, try to center the pattern to get the most asthetic layout. Full and half tile at an edge that is visible is nice, but it doesn't always work out.

[DonB]

I do the whole pieces first, beginning in the center. Be sure you check Mike2's article oin the Liberry on cutting the diags. It's very good

Don

[Gritz]

Rats! Wish I'd seen the liberry post during my earlier search, I've already cut the tiles in half.
I'd be left on each side of the back shower wall with pieces of tile 2 1/4".
To small you think?? Should I start in the corner with a half tile or maybe go back to the ole drawing board and forget the diag.
Robin

[sandbagger]

diagonal on a wall is VERY tricky for a newbie - I know. :crap: It really helps if you can lay it out on a computer so you can move the pattern around over the layout of the wall. Do you have a niche? That can play a big role in the layout. Then there's the position of the shower controls to consider. You're going to make several tradeoffs to balance the asthetics.

Start one row above the floor with whole tiles. Screw a guide into the wall to rest the points of the tiles on and make sure you get the angles absolutely correct. Once that bottom row is set you have a reference and everything else will flow from there - right or wrong!

I even used tape to mockup the shower wall on the floor and laid out all the tiles to check the fit. and then I did it again. Dry fit everything, and be prepared to have a lot of waste.

The good news is that your tiles are a LOT easier than my 14x14s! :stick:

[Gritz]

yep, it was time consuming and far from perfect! But, I'm happy with it. The ceiling was really difficult.
Regarding the corner shower seat, I'm putting in 3/4" granite. Do I use the same thinset I've been using (Premium Pro Flex Mortar-a polymer modified thinset mortar) to set the granite slab in and just grout around it as normal.
Also, will the same apply to the granite curb/threshhold?
That little sliver of tile on the face of the seat is bugging the tar out of me! I don 't know whether it will look better once grouted and with the granite overhanging it or do it over and center a piece of tile on the face. It was such a bear to do the first time given the angle of my shelf and my uneven mud job on the seat.
One other question, when tiling the floor, do you start at the drain and work towards the wall or does it matter? I'm using 2" squares on 12x12 mesh. Wouldn't diag. look good on the floor???Grin
Robin

[sandbagger]

I think most folks start the floor at the drain and work outward. If you're using the Kerdi drain the 4x4 grate will fit nicely in the hole left by removing 4 of the 2x2s.

[Gritz]

To set a piece of 3/4" granite for the seat on top of the masonry bench can I use the same mortar I used to set the tiles and floor? (a polymer modified thinset mortar) then just grout around it as usual? Thank you, Robin

[T_Hulse]

That would work great Robin. :)

[Gritz]

Could the rust discoloration in the picture be caused by the underside of the granite not being sealed and it bleeding through?

[jadnashua]

Unless the granite is doctored (some blacks are stained to make them look like a rarer, more expensive stone), I don't think it would bleed. It sort of looks like you may have a moisture problem. Did you build this, or have it done? Can you relate how it was built?

[ccarlisle]

Could be rust algae...(?) what are we looking at here, is that a shower curb? is that carpet behind it?

Try spraying ONE squirt of 50:50 bleach:water solution on one part of the orange mess and report back after a half hour or so. If there is marked improvement, then you have a soluble iron+moisture=bacterial growth situation.

How is the rest of your water supply? where are you located?

No granite doesn't 'bleed'...certainly not orange. Could it be there's a water puddle on the floor after you've showered that doesn't always go away?

[Gritz]

We're located in SW Fla, house is on a concrete slab. We tore out the existing shower and did the work ourselves following the advice on this awesome forum. Couldn't have done it without the help we recieved from an awful lot of patient people. (Thank you!) Anyway, there is no carpet, that was a bath mat and we haven't had any problems with rust colored water unlike our previous home which was also on well water, so I know what you mean. There are no puddles, all the water flows right to the drain. Hmm, what else....it's a very small shower 40" x 48", the corner bench and the shower curb are built out of concrete blocks. I have no problem cleaning the rust colored stuff off using comet or simple green, it's just a pita and looks gross. I did notice I seem to have some gaps where the granite sits on top of the shower curb, but again the curb is concrete. Now, even though the house is on a concrete slab the actual shower floor when we ripped it up was dirt under the (mud bed) ack, can't think of the right term. I thought that was really strange but someone on the forum addressed it and said thats how it was done sometimes. That's probably to much info., but I'm trying to give you all the info. Thanks for your thoughts.

[Gritz]

Shower orientation 40" x 48"

[Gritz]

Shower orientation upper

[Gritz]

After cleaning....never noticed the gaps til I took the pic.

[Tool Guy - Kg]

You found the source of your problem. :tup2: Fill that gap with a quality flexible sealant like 100% silicone.

[Gritz]

Will do Bubba, but the same rust discoloration is also located around the corner bench and there aren't any gaps around there.

[Tool Guy - Kg]

...I didn't notice. Lemmie move this over to the Resto forum for those super geniuses to chime in. I'll leave a link for you so you can find it easy. :)

[Tool Guy - Kg]

Bump...

[Old World Tile and Marble]

out of curiosity anyone in your house use shampoo for colored hair?

[BUMP...(for attention)]

Bump...

[sandbagger]

here in AZ we have a reddish-orange bacteria that just grows on damp surfaces. Rinses right off with a little bleach. I've seen the stuff grow on plastic and porcelain. I have no idea if Florida has something similar, but it's a thought. :shrug:

[Davestone]

Yes we do.An acidic shower or tile cleaner works well also,but be careful doing stone,i'd try the chlorine.

[doitright]

Hi Gritz :)

To me it just seems like a shampoo residue. What happens when you just take a stiff bristle brush to try to clean it without any chemicals. There are some great products available to help clean and maintain this type of situation without worry of damaging the stone or grout.