Woodworking

[John Bridge]

There has been a little talk of woodworking around here, and I notice that a few people have included it as a hobby in their profile. I've been after it since junior high, and I've converted my garage into a wood shop. Thought you all might like to see what I consider to be my most challenging project -- a pair of oak barstools. Well, there's only one in the pic.

Sonnie and Kelly,

The back is made in the fashion you discussed in a previous post. There are 14 one-eigth inch layers in the lamination. The 5/4 red oak was picked up from discarded stair tread material on one of the "castles" I worked on. I got enough scrap off the one job to make two stools.

http://www.johnbridge.com/images/barstool.jpg

[Sponsored Links]

[Harry]

Great John!

I admire those who are able to work with hardwood, and that old discarded wood you used probably has a nice, defined grain to work with because of its age. I'm still playing with pine which is much more forgiving, I'm a little reluctant to graduate on to oak etc.

Harry Dunbar

[Bud Cline]

"NORM"!!!

"Whoops sorry that's another show".

"Actually, sorry again, that's two other shows".

Once again John I must effervesce, or whatever that big word was you used, made a few cabinets over the years but never anything as neat as that stool.

Had a lathe once but got hurt right away and sold it.

[Rob Z]

John

Jana just noted that she likes your chair and that it is the same color as our chairs in our kitchen.

Jana's Dad

[JC]

Nice work John, the backrest must have taken some time to do..huh?

[cx]

Gotta admit that looks damn fine for a tile man!

Tell me, John, are there two stools in the picture sometimes? Just curious.

Harry:
Don't consider Pine easier to work with than Oak until you give it a try. Red Oak is one of my very favorites woods, it's hard, but not difficult.

[Sonnie Layne]

JP,
Nice barstool, it doesn't even look like it's hit the floor too many times.
Can see the laminations. Nice joinery all 'round. Love the seat. Not a bad tile job, either. {:)}

I get a sneaky feeling that most of us on this forum are multi-talented. Nice to hang around folks like that.

I once salvaged enough Red Pine (now all but extinct in NC Texas) from a house I re-trimmed to build a dresser and chest of drawers. Ate up 3 sets of knives on my planer just getting the paint off, but with that much material stripping was out of the question. Wish Peel-Away was around then, I would have saved the knives.

Just curious, how did you manage the dish-out on the seats? Don't tell me... Craftsman screwdriver???

[Edited by Sonnie Layne on 08-14-2001 at 10:58 AM]

[kalford]

Good job John.I too am a lover of fine craftsmanship.My Dad and I had a wood-working shop set up in his garage.We made potato bins,trashcans,shelves,etc.I did a lot of work with no nails or screws just dowels and biscuits.It's been a long time.I moved back up home(Tennessee)in '95 and Dad & Mom still live in Florida.Never did do anything to compare with your work though.

Sonnie,I think you are right about the multi-talented thing.Luckily I was raised to do for myself.My Dad is one of,if not THE,most talented people I know.I have yet to know of anything he can't do or figure out how to do.

[John Bridge]

I suspect the fact that we are all (except for Art) multi-talented is the reason we are all so wealthy (except for
Art). ;)

The seats are actually flat -- no scooping). I've made all manner of things based on planes, and quite frankly it's not a challenge anymore. Making a chair, though, is something that will occupy your mind. There is no amount of arithmetic that will tell you the compound angles of the spindle/seat tenons, the rail/leg joints, etc. It's trial and error. And by the time you get it figured out, the project is complete.

Harry, Kelly,

I still make things from white pine. It is the most beautiful wood in the world. I'll try to take a picture of our dinette set, made from multi-specie 2x4s I got at Home Depot years ago.

[Rob Z]

Hi John

I like to work with wood, as well. If my garage wasn't filled up with all the stuff for a tile setting and remodeling business, i'd have a nice woodshop to play in. Maybe some day....

My friend Joe is a handrail specialist. He has a gizmo that allows him to drill and route out holes, mortises, etc at various angles for stair parts. It's an expensive tool, but it is really sweet. Kelly probably has seen these things. Maybe something like that can be adapted for chair parts?

Have you ever seen Roy Underhill (PBS's "The Woodwright's Shop) making chairs by hand , with the old methods? He has some of those old scoop type planes that were used to scallop out the bottoms of chairs. Very interesting.

Christina and I like Mission Style furniture. Have you ever made any? If so, how about some pics?

[kalford]

Rob,
The "scoop type plane" you see Roy using is a "Cooper's In-Shave". It is design for scooping out chair seats,bowls or anything that needs hollowed out.John,this is another thing that Lehman's sells.Some other wood working tools they have are; Straight and curved Drawknives,Hand Gouging Adze(for roughing out seats etc.)Froes,Breast Drills,Mortising/Framing Chisels,Spoke Shaves,Carpenter's Adze.....the list goes on.I have several Drawknives and Spokeshaves.Don't get many chances to use them.

[Rob Z]

Hi Keith

The neatest part of Roy's show (I think) is seeing the old tools and how things were done way back when before power tools. Another thing I thought was cool-the various planes with different profiles, for the days before routers.

Rob

[chip]

Dang, John, that hurt. My reputation precedes me once again.

I sure wish I had your money, I could burn mine.

Nice chair, I've sat in chairs before. I think they were wood, could have been plastic. I never could tell the difference.

The local grocery store "Publix" has plastic Adirondack chairs for sale, I always get a kick out of them.

Now lets see you make one of those, the old fashioned way!?

Art

[Sonnie Layne]

Adirondacks are no prob. Just get a stump of red tide cypress and start gnawing away with a craftsman screwdriver.

What I hate is the elfishness of folks who want to finish a beautiful piece of work with urethane. Visit http://www.shellac.com to get a bit of modern day advice. Or just take my word for it. Technology has even infiltrated a thousand years into our past. Where will we stop it? Never, I should hope.

Hey, you think we could sweet talk those laq beetles into contributing further to a waterproof membrane for mud men/tile setters?

Damn, I just remembered ballrooming in a casino along the gold coast just south of Brisbane with an adorable Aussie lady from Kenmore. Don't guess any of our Aussie guests are around to breath out the flames of the Jacarandas for me, eh? Aah, well, c'ie le vie. Kohn se mohn.

Brought by stars,
lost by moonlight,
and happily yet I stand
lost in the starlight,
wishing by moonbeams
that I held her heart
in my hand.

[Harry]

John, you keep opening doors that I just can't resist going through. So here goes ..... and thanks John for allowing us the opportunity for a little "show n' tell". This is my most recent project (my wife did the stained glass panels in the upper doors), my next venture is a "harvest table".

http://www.ontariotile.com/images/wood2.jpg

Harry Dunbar

[Rob Z]

Nice work, Harry.

[John Bridge]

Very nice piece, Harry. I particularly appreciate the old meat grinder. My mom used one of those way back in the day. Feel free to put all your stuff on here. Who knows? We might team up and make a killing, eh? Not.

I'm gonna try for a pic of my dinette set. It might inspire you. I say try because my dinette is very small. I'll have to shove myself against the wall to get it all in.

Stay tuned.

[John Bridge]

Okay, well the room is not large enough to get the whole thing at once. I could probably go outside and shoot through a window, but hey . . .

The design is my original, but it's fashioned on the Early American idea of simplicity and functionality. The entire thing is held together by the wood pegs driven into mortises in the rail ends. The only place I used nails was on the bench planks to help hold them to the contoured forms while the glue set. Otherwise, it's glue and wood.

The wood is all 2x4s I got from Home Depot. There are two or three species of pine, a few pieces of Doug Fir, and there is some hemlock in there, too.

The table top consists of green marble tiles from Asia, I think. The tiles are simply laid in loose, bumped up against one another.

http://www.johnbridge.com/dinette.jpg
"knock-down table and benches"

[cx]

Nice work, Harry. I suspect the truth wasn't entirely with you when you claimed not to be ready for Oak. Or at least a little Mahogany, it's real easy to work with.

John:

Perhaps if you could say something really tacky to your wife, she could shove you a bit closer to the wall. Then axe her to hand you the camera.

Nice work. Zero metal fastners is my favorite way to work with wood. Like glue and dowels - and lots and lots of clamps. Does that set really still knock down, or did you glue it once together?

[John Bridge]

kelly,

everything comes to parts. and I tole you before. it's "ax" not "axe." Axe is that tree chopper thing. I ain't even a real texan and I know that.

Clamps are the deal. You never have enough. After a while one gets pretty creative. I've used wood shims, wedges, and bungee cords to hold things together. Pipe clamps are good if you have a bunch of different lengths of pipe handy.

Well hell. Guess one of these days I'll have to show you a pic of the 17th century European bench vise I made out of oak laminations.

In the meantime, what with all your talk of glue and dowels, I've got a feeling you might have some project pics of your own. This would be the place to show them off.

[Harry]

Thanks :D
I enjoy working with wood and like most of you here, I don't use nails or screws except for the hardware. I haven't mortised yet, just dowels and oversized tongue and grove so far until I get a better setup in the garage.

John ... I like your table. I'd like to make something similar with some limestone I have left over in the workshop.

Harry

[cx]

John, I know you done already tole me twict, so, figgerin' you bein' older and all, I went right over to axe ol' Merriam (you know, the girl wrote that big book pretending to be a man, an all) and she said you could spell it ax or axe, ever which way you want. Didn't even have no preference. Don't need to be no Texan if you got ol' Merriam.

Actually I have very few pictures of anything I've built. Nearly all of it is in somebody else's house and I've never been much on photography anyway. Just started taking pictures of construction projects because a friend lets me borrow his digital camera and they are absolutely the cat's ass. But mostly it's pictures of the house being built so's I know just where to cut into the wall to find this or that place where I done something dumb, or someone else did. Really great for that. Just take lots of pictures, bring'em home, load'em inna computer and forget'em 'till somebody says, "I know we roughed a clean-out in that wall" and you have to drill a 3" hole in the fine stained baseboard - in the right place. Love it.

But that's not what you axed about. I have some pichers (another Texas word) of the trim in the last house. That count? Only furniture I've ever made lives elsewhere and wasn't all that impressive anyway.


Clamps GOOOOOD! Pipe clamps, bar clamps, Jorgensen clamps, spring clamps, C clamps, piece-of-innertube clamps, lead-shot-bags clamps, masking-tape clamps, and the list goes on. Use'em all. Even had to resort to the truck-bumber-against-the-tree clamp at least once.

Not just for gluing either. Bar clamps are some of the best assistants I have for many jobs that would be impossible alone without them. They're cheap help, don't bitch about the conditions, wait in the truck all day if you don't need'em, don't smoke, don't drink, don't steal none of your other tools. Did I mention that I like clamps?

And since Bud and them (see, I speak Pennsylvania too) ain't around, guess I hafta be the one to question whether we really wanna see pictures of any of your vises, John.

[flatfloor]

John, seriously, nice chairs, but you would mind telling me where the hell rest of us are going to sit?

BTW, my Golden loved the picture of you and the bird, she can't wait!

[Sonnie Layne]

gotta great recipe for parrot,
and for goldens as well!!!
See you in September

[Rob Z]

John

Nice work. And a true Texan would have said "I done tole you...."

I apologize in advance for any beer I spill on your nice table while visiting the Bridge Estate.

Rob

[cx]

Hey, ol' flatfloor just reminded me, I got some pictures of me and a Spotted Owl. Like to see his Golden retrieve that sucker! Lest you shot it first, of course, which wouldn't be fair, I don't think.

Bet Sonnie ain't got no recepies for them, neither.

[Sonnie Layne]

Oh, contraire, m'cher...
calls for an oven roasting pan, two cups of turtle soup (for basting), a cup of crab/shrimp meat, one cup okra, one cup coarse chopped onion, Stuff the appropriate critter with crab, sautee the okra and onion in butter, stuff them into the critter. Set the oven at 350 and bake 30 min per lb. or better yet, set 'em on da grill til the first side turn nearly burnt' lookin, den ya turn 'im over, kill the heat and let 'im cook (baste often) til the taters are cooked, then you slice and serve.

[cx]

Hell, that sound like jus a standard Coonass recipe for jus about anything! Bet thas the same one you was gonna use for the dog, too.

For dat Spotted Owl, gotta have a sure-nuff en-danger recipe. Like maybe if you use'n that Ridley's turtle for the soup and maybe some Snail Darter for the stuffin' and such. And NO okra. Y'all always pewtin' okra in everthing.

Do better.

But that did sound good. Maybe with just an ol' dead chicken. And no okra.

[Rob Z]

Sonnie

I like okra. Feel free to include in anything you whip up for me. My only yucks are mushrooms and brussel sprouts.


Rob

[John Bridge]

dammit, i'm gonna keep this thread on the subject of woodworkin'. An yor gonna see my vise.

And oh. The word is "pitcher." That's how my helper, a native Texan, says it, as in I took this pitcher of my vise.

One more thing. Merriam weren't no texan. Merriam were a yankee.

http://www.johnbridge.com/vise.jpg
You can drop a door or other panel down into the vise about 14 inches, which makes it easy to work on edges, etc. Also, the vise will open about 12 inches to grip thicker objects -- small boxes, for instance.

[Rob Z]

John

This raises a serious question. How does a native Texan refer to a large vessel of beer, ie: a pitcher of beer?

Uh oh, off subject again.

Rob

[John Bridge]

It would just be a pitcher of beer, silly. Pitcher is one of those words that means more than one thing -- like labatory.

You can go to the labatory to relieve yourself, or you can go to the labatory to do some science.

[Rob Z]

Ahhh, I see. Kinda like "fixin'", right?

"I'm fixin' to get myself a pitcher of beer".

or

"Where's John"

"He's out in the garage, fixin' that wooden vise that broke".

[cx]

Hey, we'll have y'all speakin' Texan in no time atall!

Now, you might hafta work on your pronunciation some. Like if one of the tires on your automobile should suddenly catch fire, you hafta know what to tell'em at 911 so's they'll understand: "I got me a car tar far at ma house!"

'Course there's lots more, but you can't learn it all in one day.

[Harry]

Could be worse, you could be talking like a "Newfie".

"Lord tunderin by ... holds me watch ... I tinks me wants ta fight!"
:)

Harry
(Close to, but not quite a Newfie)

[Bud Cline]

Wud yall carry me tada airport fore fore clock? First imagonna have a shuor fetch me that ther bath tile wudja? While ima shourn wud yall check the all in my car?

[John Bridge]

CX (Kelly Chaplin) sends us a picture of his vise setup -- two old fashioned vises. Great idea for holding long stock. You can see a couple "Jorgensens" under the bench.
http://www.johnbridge.com/twovise.jpg

[John Bridge]

I'm just about finished with the dresser I started at about the same time I started this web site a couple years ago. The dresser lost, and the web site won -- until recently when Patti laid down the ultimatum: Finish the dresser before I can start any new projects of any type, including web projects.

I can't get a good pic of the whole thing. My shop is too small.

http://johnbridge.com/pics/dresser2.jpg http://johnbridge.com/pics/dresser1.jpg

The entire case is solid 7/8 in. red oak stock, exept for the insert panel for the top, which is 3/4 in. oak veneer plywood.

The drawer boxes are 1/2 in. white pine which I planed down from 3/4 stock. Wish I had taken a picture of the pile of wood chips I made doing that.

Dovetailing done with a router and jig, of course.

It needs to be rubbed once more and waxed. Put on the drawer pulls and I'm out from under the thumb for a while.

'Course I still have to make the mirror frame, but Patti hasn't thought of that yet. ;)

[Cami A]

What was Patti's e-mail again, John? :D

Seriously- very nice dovetailing! How do you find the time to do everything?

[John Bridge]

pat@johnbridge.com

But guess who always checks the mail on johnbridge.com.

<<How do you find the time to do everything?>>

I don't spend too much time on the job. Got the workday down to about 6-1/2 hours -- shooting for about five. ;)

[flatfloor]

I'm envious John, but not enough to do something about it.

BTW, Bud's new signature seems to be retroactive, look at his post from August.

Geez, last August.. a few changes in the world since then.

[Bud Cline]

OK I'm lost Jim. What did I do now?

[Bud Cline]

Nice work John. Wish I had the patience to do dovetails. I'm doing good just to get thru dados and half laps.

God please give me patience. And do it right now!

[Edited by Bud Cline on 11-26-2001 at 10:39 PM]

[flatfloor]

Nuttin, but on my 'puter your signature on a post from 8/19 says Seasons Greetings.

[John Bridge]

Think I had a conversation with CX about "half-laps." Maybe it was with Rob or somebody else. I think it was Kelly, though.

[Bud Cline]

Jim whatever your current signature is, is what comes up with your name no matter when you originally made the post.

I didn't think about how out of place it would be if someone was reviewing old posts.

[cx]

Wadn't no conversation as I recalls it.

Somebody axed could they make a half lap in a joist.

Me, I said I didn't know what a half lap was.

You said it was half of a whole lap.

I figgered you was just smart assin' on accounta you didn't know neither.

Me, I still don't know. I can guess pretty much, but don't know as I've ever known of a joint called a half lap. Maybe there is. Maybe there ain't.

Maybe it's just when you only runs half way around the track and quit. Prolly cause you didn't quit smokin', or somethin'.

[tehe]

[Bud Cline]

See the door frame in the lower left of the picture?

http://www.minwax.com/projects/cabinet/art/dia-1.gif

------------------"HALF LAPS"------------------





:D

[John Bridge]

Those are half laps, all right. What's all that other stuff?

The signature section is not part of the "database," so when you change the signature, it's changed on everything. It's part of the profile, just like your title. If I give you a new title, it goes on all the posts you've made. It's a pretty amazing little system. Wish I really understood it all. :D

[Bud Cline]

Mortise & Tenon joints.

[kdzgon]

I went looking for some opinions on a table saw (looking at a Bosch 4000K) and stumbled across this thread. There is some really beautiful stuff here - nice work, guys!

Harry, I thought I never liked pine, but that piece is simply great!

John, I love that table set. Isn't there ever a problem with dirt or spilled liquid getting between/around the tiles, or are there simply never any kids at this table? And did Patti get her matching mirror yet?

Laurie

[Sonnie Layne]

Laurie,

I bought one of the first Dewalt's on the market. They yanked them off because the guide lock lever was too close to the power switch. I only paid $150 instead of $500.

I would however take a second and third look at that Bosch. I generally like their tools (except drills and circular saws). Soft start technology may have been invented by them, but I don't see the need for it in table saws. I'm not familiar with the design of their guide, but I can say I'm really impressed with DeWalt's rack and pinion. Accurate enough to build site-built cabinetry. Mine is 13 amp. Bosch is 15 amp, rarely a problem, but sometimes working in older homes, at start-up the larger equipment has to be hot-boxed into the panel.

For the same price, I'd probably lean toward Bosch, but check out the fence detail, that's the critical part to me, plus the DeWalt weighs in at 65lbs. Not light, but it's no cheesy piece of equipment, either.

[kdzgon]

Thanks, Sonnie - I've been reading up on them a bit, but the soft start technology isn't really a factor for me. The number one praise for the Bosch seems to be the accuracy of the fence, biggest avg complaint the dust collection system. It's the lightest (60 lbs), and the portable stand (included) is supposed to be pretty stury. The price is $499, apparently down from an original price of $800 - $900. Biggest reason for me not to buy this (or any) table saw is to avoid adding to one more addiction :)

Laurie

[flatfloor]

CX been lookin all over fer you. Look at Yo Poet in the deep end.

[cx]

Thanks for the try, Jim, but it's obvious he ain't gonna pay no attention. I'm gonna call for sanctions against him here pretty quick. :)

Laurie:

You looking for a portable saw, or a permanent shop saw?

[kdzgon]

cx,

I think I'd prefer a portable one. I don't have enough space to really set up a workshop anyway, plus it'd mean we can use it on site for various renovations, etc. With few exceptions, this saw seemed to get fairly consistent reviews by satisfied users.

[John Bridge]

Don't know about portable saws. If it ain't a Unisaw, well .... :)

"John, I love that table set. Isn't there ever a problem with dirt or spilled liquid getting between/around the tiles . . . ?"

We don't look down in there. :D

[cx]

Laurie:

There was a fine comparison of such saws done a while back (more than a year) in Fine Home Building, I think. I got my copy from RobZ who ripped it out if his daddy's magazine, as I recall. Maybe he'll remember when it was, or maybe you can find it on their web site. Article was by Gary Katz, moderator if the trim carpentry forum at JLC. Don't recall what was said about your Bosch, but it was in there.

At the time I was looking for a replacement for my aging (but not yet dead) Delta. Rob has recently purchased the DeWalt, which was priced at about $500 at the time. Big selling point was a usable fence and Teflon coating on the table and fence, as I recall. I wasn't gonna cook nothin' on mine, so.....

For about 20% more I ended up with the rig pictured below. For portability and general usability, I think it hard to match. It looks a little flimsy maybe. It ain't.

The folding table is a Rousseau. Comes with its own fence system, so you don't need to pay much attention to the fence that comes with the saw. Actually, you don't need to pay ANY attention; I'm sure I still have mine, but I don't know where it is.

The saw I chose was a Makita. Very light. Very strong motor. Seems very stable of blade. Good machine.

But you can put most any kind of portable in one of Rousseau's tables. You can also mount any number of routers under their tables or extension tables. A little pricey, perhaps, but the damn things are well designed and do exactly what is advertised. For someone without a shop table at all, I think it a most excellent choice.

In fact, the table in the photo is set up not forty feet from my big cast iron Powermatic in the shop. But my shop is such that I can't rip longer than about ten feet without rearranging some stuff. Easier to get the Rousseau and the portable saw out of the trailer than move the shop saw.

Moderately wonderful. Especially for a remodeling guy. http://www.rousseauco.com/

http://images.snapfish.com/334%3B%3A58323232%7Ffp67%3Dot%3E2327%3D55%3C%3D835%3Dxroqdf%3E23232%3C8628878ot1lsi

[kdzgon]

Do any of you have any idea how bad it can be when both spouses are tool and gadget nuts? :( Geez, I was really trying to keep this purchase "reasonable", especially as I'm not yet sure what I need the table saw for, other than ripping now and again - and I haven't done woodworking since I was in high school!

Then, you had to go and show me that table - not only does it have wheels (the Bosch comes with a decent folding stand, but no wheels) but a place for my router, too! Overall, I like Makita equip. - we looked at that saw, but decided to hold off at the time. I know a lot of pros are snobbish about it, but then they go and buy yellow-painted B&D tools, so what do they know, anyway? ;)

I have a good sized bench but it's along one wall in my detached - and too crowded - garage, so portable seems best right now.

Kelly, all I know is when my DH wants to shoot me, I'm just directing him to this thread. :)

Laurie

[cx]

Make more closely lookings - got no wheels. Way too light to need wheels. You carry the folded table in one hand, saw in the other, if you wanna. I don't like wheels. Never do what you want'em to, plenty times do what you don't want'em to. Get inna way in the trailer.

Wheels on the tool trailer good. :)

That saw and table together were about $600 as I recall. Router inserts and extension tables cost some more. You can have one router mounted in the saw table (if you get the table with the cut-out, or cut it out) and another in the extension table. Can even use the same fence for all of them if you want. And if you don't want any routers for a while, just lift them out, without changing the settings at all. Very versatile.

Tell the DH to email or call me if he wants to know more. No such thing as too many tools. :D

[Hobbit]

CX said:

Make more closely lookings - got no wheels.
:D:DLMAO--However......

The web site you linked says the following:


Featured Product

PORTABLE STAND FOR
LARGER BENCH TOP TABLE SAWS

We listened to your requests and came up with this rugged
stand, compact & portable with optional outfeed and router
extension tables. Protects saw, rolls easily around work site
and is sure footed for safe, heavy duty use.

Now it may not have wheels, but must have somethin...??? if it "rolls." ;)

:D

[cx]

Oh, picky, picky, picky, Howard. ;)

But I was referring to the photo I posted, which is not the "featured" table on their web site. Eez different.

Your humble apology is gracefully accepted. :D

[kdzgon]

Originally posted by cx
Make more closely lookings - got no wheels. Way too light to need wheels.

Yes, but you sent me to the site, where I found this:

http://www.rousseauco.com/images/2750.jpg

and this:

http://www.rousseauco.com/images/2500.jpg

You carry the folded table in one hand, saw in the other, if you wanna.
Right. I can't water-ski, either....

Tell the DH to email or call me if he wants to know more. No such thing as too many tools. :D

Oh, sure - send him here. Heck, I buy more tools than he does, anyway! Just one question - after he starts visiting here, he's gonna keep telling me what I'm doing wrong (I'll still be right, just more aggravated :) ) - then will you come to NJ and finish my projects after I walk off the job?

Laurie

[bbcamp]

Would you two stop your bickering and look at these, please?


This is a coffee table I made from white oak. There is a matching sofa table and 2 end tables. Mortise and tenion skirt-to-legs, with notched buttons securing the top. No stain, tung oil finish.
http://images.snapfish.com/334%3B%3A68%3B23232%7Ffp65%3Dot%3E2326%3D%3A95%3D966%3Dxroqdf%3E23232%3C8686494ot1lsi


This is a corner china cabinet in red oak. 7 feet tall. Biscuit joined face frame and plywood carcase. Tung oil finish with black walnut stain scrubbed on/off. I also built a dining table, and finished some pre-made chairs. Eclectic (meaning they don't match too good)
http://images.snapfish.com/334%3B%3A68%3B23232%7Ffp67%3Dot%3E2326%3D%3A95%3D966%3Dxroqdf%3E23232%3C8686497ot1lsi

Most of my other stuff is in other people's houses, or in the kid's cave (you don't want to go in there). If I can find it, I'll post a pic of a rocking horse I built for some friends' grandkids. I kept the plans, in case I had to make another one for closer to home.



Bob (wood butcher in East Tennessee)

[Hobbit]

Nice look Bob.:)

There's something about wood. Its so....so......provincial?? Comfy?? Strong?? Masculine??

I just love the smell of sawdust in the morning. It smells like....like........victory?? Oops wrong line.;) It smells ...right. (Not that SYP though------that stuff stinks!!):D:D

[Sonnie Layne]

Kelly, that's cool. Only Rousseau (sp?) I've used was the miter saw extension thingy. I don't own it (I found one just as useful for $169), but I'm thinking that the price of the table extension itself had to be a couple hundred?. That company does build extremely durable stands.

Heck, I just nail two 2x4's together and save the money for more beer (or champagne) ! Always blame it on the drunken level ;)

[John Bridge]

That's very nice stuff. I'm a lacquer man myself. I know, I know. :)

[Sonnie Layne]

I'm with ya, JPB. Lacquer and shellac. Or a realman's finish, rubbed wax/deet oil. :)

[Sonnie Layne]

yeah, I'm embarrassed, it's a B&D with yeller paint. My 3hp Jet with 54" Beismeier sits alone, rejected as I have no place to set her up at the moment.

I'm very happy with my B/D saw. Hope the Bosch turns out as well. I'm sure it will. Just check the guide situation. While Bosch is known for it's reliability in the motor end of things, and it's electronic particulates, sometimes it lets you down in the bearing and armature department. For tools that are used momentarily this is not a problem, when you start facing off a few hundred feet of pecan base mo(u)ld it could matter that the motor doesn't start doing a two-step instead of a waltz. :) Either machine, I still like blue over yellow. Think I'll buy some spray paint tomorrow. :)

[Sonnie Layne]

For fine flat work, you should try raw linseed with naptha over lacquer. Mirror finish. Detailed work, I loved it when I was getting paid by the hour. ;)

[cx]

OK, OK, OK, already! I didn't say they didn't make some with wheels, just said I don't like the ones with wheels.

Look at the PortaMax. No wheels. Carry in one hand. I like that one. You like one with wheels, you get one with wheels. You pewsh yours around, I'll carry mine. Pretty soon you'll wanna carry yours, wish it didn't have some wheels. Then you remember who said what, eh? :D

Sonnie:

I think that's how they spell it, them Rousseaus, I mean.

For portable mitre saw work I have a stand by different manufacturer, for which I would not trade. It's moderately wonderful. For many, many years I used the ol' 2x12 on sawhorses. Now I have this thing whose name I'll hafta go look for, and I'm truly in love. Even has a repetitive stop system that actually works! Hafta modify each of your saws to use it at first, but that's a small price to pay. Now, when you BUY the thing, that's NOT a small price to pay. But worth every dime.

Bob:

That's nice work, my man. Nothing like natural wood finishes. Even on pine. Even on SYP, which, by the way, is what the bottom of your corner cabinet looks like in that picher. :D

Laurie:

Nobody likes a quitter. Besides, who would come to NJ to work on purpose? But I bet RobZ would do it. Or flatfloor, he's right down the street, eh? :)

[Ron Teti]

If I can ever finish it Ill show the kitchen Ive been working on, made the cabs doors drawer ect out of birch ply boxes and a rustic hickory end panels doors drawer fronts ect. Got to install the floor and wall tile plus replace the pocket doors so much for my vacation this year. ill be done one of these days

[bbcamp]

I use tung oil 'cuz it allows you to build the level of shine you want. My wife likes to "feel" the wood after the finish, so using tung oil over an open grained wood (like red oak)is a "natural" in my house. Tung oil also lets me spend lots of time in the shop, building up layers, until, magically, the finish I am looking for appears. Oil is very forgiving; you almost can't get a run.

Lacquer is ok for quick projects, but I think it tends to yellow, which makes me think of the projects I made in shop class. Only my Mom liked them!

If I had my druthers on the coffee table, I woulda used polyurethane (satin), rubbed out with 0000 steel wool, then waxed. Bullet proof. The wax protects the finish from abrasions of daily life, and the poly is alcohol proof. I did a bedroom set (waterbed, dresser, chest-of-drawers) for the kid a few years ago (he was 8, now 19). Hard maple, with radiused (bullnose to you tile setters) edges and sprayed on polyurethane. I wanted something he could not destroy or be hurt on. He managed to scar up the dresser top a little with his toys, but now, his aftershave(s) don't touch the finish. (At least I think, cause I don't go in his cave unless there is a fire, or something...)



Bob (afraid of certain caves in beautiful East Tennessee)

[Sonnie Layne]

I like tung oil as well, it is very forgiving. have you ever tried as the final coat a wet sanding using the tung as a lubricant with 600 grit wet/dry? Talk about slick!

[bbcamp]

I have tried that trick, but with the first and/or second coats. Sanding with the tung oil creates a slurry that acts as a filler, if you don't wipe too hard. The only drawback with oil on open pore woods is bleedback, where the oil in the pores weeps back to the surface. If you don't wipe it off, you get little dots of dried oil, kinda like reverse fish-eye.

Anyhow, we don't go for high gloss finishes, like french-padded lacquer.


Bob

[kdzgon]

Bob (and Kelly)~ I wasn't bickering - just saying I saw wheels, and started thinking that direction. OK, cx - I believe you about the wheels! Either way, I won't be able to carry both at one time - females have less upper body strength, y'know? :D

I'm not set on the Bosch - I was just asking about it, because it seemed to be a decent table saw and stand for the price (abt $450). I like yellow well enough - I just don't like the extra price they get 'cause it has yellow paint and a different name on it. Maybe I should get the Makita, so's it'll match with a lot of my other tools - whaddya think, Sunnie..oops!...Sonnie - color-coordinated tools?

And I'm *not* a quitter - that's why I'm smart enough not to send my hubby to this site :)

Nice pics, Bob - maybe after I finish my bathroom, I'll try my hand at a rocking horse. First grandchild on the way, due here in March! I keep downloading free plans from The Woodworker's Journal (incl a rocking horse and some toys).

OK, new question: best basic tools needed to be able to start a wookworking project?

Laurie

OR a woodworking project.

[Edited by kdzgon on 08-09-2002 at 02:00 PM]

[bbcamp]

Laurie,

You just opened a big can of worms!


:)

Bob

[cx]

Of course you were bickering! That's what we do for fun around here, so don't be self-conscious about it. :D

Some people obviously like the kind with wheels. Lotta companies make'em. Maybe you'll like wheels on yours. Eez OK. Give us one more thing to bicker about. :)

I don't carry my stand and saw at the same time, either. Prolly could, but the saw is bulky. But you would have no trouble at all carrying them separately. RobZ could carry both under ONE arm, leaving room under the other for his 5hp compressor. :D

That Bosch rig might be just fine. Don't know. Wish I could find that FHB article. Maybe you could find it on their site?

And yellow tools ain't all bad IMHO. All my big (18volt) cordless tools are yellow and I like them fine. The battery life is not wonderful, but I have no other brands that size for comparison. My big (12") SCMS is also yellow and I just love it. Still need my little (10") blue one for the small stuff, and love it just as dearly. Got mostly blue and yellow stuff. Good bit of gray, some black, and a little red. Tough to coordinate on the job site sometimes, so I've stopped worrying about it. :)

And now: "OK, new question: best basic tools needed to be able to start a wookworking project?"

You puttin' us on, right? Like, how many pancakes does it take to cover a dog house? That sort of thing?

But seriously, I don't know about the others, but I only got about 60 meg of storage on my computer - how many pages is that? ;)

First tell us what you already got.




Hell, John ain't even got an air compressor in his shop. We ain't gonna get NO agreement on this. :)

And what's a "wook", anyway?

[kdzgon]

Originally posted by cx
Of course you were bickering! That's what we do for fun around here, so don't be self-conscious about it. :D


I'm Italian. trust me - that's not bickering. :D

I'll rephrase the question: What tool(s) are you most glad you have when building a furniture piece? I see lots of tools I'd like to have, but I'm not sure how necessary (or just really great/helpful to have) some tools are. I have a couple of little hand tools I could do without, but I'd never consider it as they are just so useful. That's like I've learned it really is handy to wear a tool belt at times, no matter how silly I may think I look in it. I invested in quality safety glasses so I'll wear them, but I haven't used earplugs at all.

I have basic tools - hand tools, drills, jigsaw, circular saws, sawzalls, rotozip, sliding compound miter saw, router, etc. Clamps, but not enough, of course, bench vise, grinding wheel. Not enough router bits. Table saw is next. Nothing too large - no radial arm saw, no bandsaw, drill press, lathe, planer, joiner, etc. Don't need most or all of them for an occasional project maybe, but some would be nice to have.

So, how about it? Favorites, anyone? Just a suggestion or two would help. :)

Laurie

[bbcamp]

Sounds like you have a pretty good collection started.


Started is the key word. Tool collection is a life-long persuit; a quest with no end. Let your projects tell you what tools to buy.

That being said, I think a table saw should be your next major purchase, since most woodworkers consider it to be the heart of their shop. Spend more than you can afford on a good saw, cause a bad saw will turn you to tile setting, or something.:)

The next would be a joiner. The wider and longer, the better. Flattening and straighting lumber into good boards is essential. You will also want to edge join narrow boards into wider boards some day.

The drill press would be next, since you can make holes with your hand held drills. The increased precision and optional accessories will show in your work.

You can live without a planer if your lumber yard (NOT HD or LOWES) can thickness plane for you. However, I consider it a necessary luxury to be able to thickness a board to my needs when I need it.

A lathe is fun. When you decide on a project with turnings, get one. If turning becomes a passion for you, get a better one. You'll know when that happens.


Lastly, get a good workbench first. Heavy, sturdy, immobile if possible, with at least one bench clamp. This is a good first shop project, since making it will build your skills, using it will build your projects, and experience with it will help you design and build your next one.




Bob (in beautiful East Tennessee)

[Edited by bbcamp on 08-09-2002 at 04:14 PM]

[kdzgon]

Thanks, "Tennessee Bob". Nice to see an order to things. I already have a decent tile saw, too but even I know I don't need that for the woodworking. See, I already let my projects guide my purchases :)

Built a nice, sturdy workbench last summer - had to have some place to store my bulkier tools (has shelves/cabinets underneath). It has a bench clamp, but one of these days I'll have to make one of those wooden vises like John has. Still haven't gotten around to hanging my pegboards, but that's ok - I think maybe I'll make a thin cabinet so I can lock it up (the bench is out in my detached garage). I have an orbital and a belt sander, but those palm sanders look kind of neat. Useful, or not?

The lathe was my favorite place to work in shop all those years ago, so I think I'll stay away from that for a while.

Do you recommend ever buying used tools, other than from someone you know? My uncle used to do quite a bit of woodworking, but no longer. I'm hoping now that he's moving he may decide to sell some of his tools, but I'm not counting on it.

You see, how this works is once I know what I want next, I work on letting my DH "figure out" what tool he'd really like. He's really great in that if I said I wanted something, he'd get it for me. But it is so much more fun the other way ~ he feels special because he gets something he wanted, and I get the tool or whatever I need - AND he doesn't b*tch about it after the fact if he has to move it around or if it doesn't get much use, etc. And, sometimes he gets what he wants even if we don't really need it - like the second sawzall (1 corded, 1 cordless). Fair's fair, no? ;) :)

edited to add:
Do you think a portable table saw is the best choice, or would a contractor's table saw be a better option? Still light enough to transport to another location, but is it a little sturdier?/more powerful?/more accurate?, maybe?

[Edited by kdzgon on 08-09-2002 at 05:28 PM]

[bbcamp]

I favor the largest, heaviest table saw I can get. However, if you need to move it from your shop to your work space often, the bench top saws would be your answer.

Used power tools from strangers? No, unless you are really familiar with the tool in question and are willing to repair "hidden" problems. Hand (non-power) tools are easier to judge, unless you're talking about antique hand planes at premium prices.

Palm sanders? My palms are soft and smooth enough from office work...(really, though, I have 2, and a random orbit. The palm sanders get a workout, the random orbit watches from his shelf).

I really like the way you convince your hubby that "he" needs a tool that "you" want. (I did get that right, eh?) ;)



Bob (talkin' tools in East Tennessee)

[kdzgon]

cx,

It looks like you need a subscription to the jlc forum to access the older issues of the magazine, so I wasn't able to search the site. I did find this review, though, on one of their affiliated sites:

http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/content/tools/2000/july/SiteRippers/default.asp

[kdzgon]

Originally posted by bbcamp
I really like the way you convince your hubby that "he" needs a tool that "you" want. (I did get that right, eh?) ;)


yup. shhhh...... ;)

[cx]

Laurie:

The article will be in FHB (Fine Home Building), not JLC. It was done by JLC's trim moderator. He writes stuff for other publications, too. Try the FHB site. I rarely ever visit there, so I don't know what's available.

And yes, JLC has become kind of a pain in the ass in that regard. I think they did a large caliber number on their own foot with that "improvement", but who am I to say? I do have paid access to the site and will be happy to get you any article you see there that you might be of interest. I can't post it here, of course, but I could email you a copy. I think that's within the accepted protocol. If not, well...........

I'll try to comment on the tools later. Mostly I don't disagree much with Tennessee Bob. :)

[Sonnie Layne]

Laurie,

As a painter, I own several sanders, ummm maybe 8.

I like my random orbit variable speed Bosch. Because of the VS, it allows sanding of latex paints. 8 hole evacuation allows a clean surrounding.

As a cabinet maker, I prefer to work out of shop with a Jet table saw, but it ain't something you'd drag out to the site. Believe me, you can build beautifully detailed site-built stuff with the Bosch we talked about earlier, or the Dewalt. Right blades are important.

Jointers? I'd invest in planers.

Doweling jig. Bisquick joiner. Important.

A good Bosch (there's that name again) sabre saw is a must as well.

So many good things to spend your money on. So many hard ways to make that money.

[bbcamp]

Gawd, CX! What's to disagree with? When I'm right, I'm right!


(and when I've partaken too much of the Captain, I can't type for sh**.)

[Sonnie Layne]

would that be Morgan, Bob? ;)

[bbcamp]

yup! :)

[kdzgon]

cx,
Can't find the article anywhere online, but I've found a few others so far. I'll check out the library on my next visit - thanks!

As to new tool purchases, my DH has surpassed me, by far. Instead of "suggesting" what we may need next, I think I've created a monster! All I had to do was suggest he could build something for the grandchildren on the way, and he wants to buy it all, including a lathe - at this rate, we'll have to build a shop building first, never mind a workbench!

Laurie

[davem]

I got a chuckle out of this. I would like to have a sign like this in my workshop. :)

** ACHTUNG! **

Alles Lookenspeepers: Das Voodvorkink Machinery Ist
Nicht For Gefingerpoken, Mittengrabben, Switchen Flippen,
Knobben Twisten, Und Lever Pushen. Ist Easy Der Scharf
Edges To Ruinieren, Innards To Broken, Fusen To Blowen,
Und Fingers To Slicen. Ist Nicht For Werken By Das
Dummkopfen. Das Rubbernecker Sightseer Keepen Hands
In Das Pockets, Relaxen, Und Watchen Das Chips Flyen.

[Sonnie Layne]

Heck, I don't even speak German and it's hilarious :)

[bbcamp]

John,

On your dining table, you didn't grout the tiles, and you don't look down there between the tiles to this day. However, if you were so inclined to adhere and grout the tiles, what would be your recommendation. I'm thinking that a mud bed would be too heavy, and a single layer of plywood on a skirt frame would flex too much for thinset.

Is this a job for m-m-mastic and caulk?


(I'm thinking about a coffee table and end tables for the den, since we eat there more than the dining room. Maybe I'll have a project for this winter.)


Bob (in ..., aw hell, you know where!)

[John Bridge]

Sonnie, it's not German. It's Dutch. :D

Bob,

Years ago I did some coffee tables and grouted them solid with no problems. I stuck the tiles down with something akin to Liquid Nails or construction adhesive, can't really remember.

Small tables aren't going to flex that much. I did you latex in the grout back then. Nowadays I would just use polymer grout. It'll stay in there. On layer of good quality plywood. Birch veneer paint grade would be fine.

By the time you get your legs and rails mortised together, it'll be pretty rigid. I usually glue corner blocks in behind the leg/rail connections. Doesn't cost anything and it adds quite a bit of reinforcing. If the coffee table is going to be large, I'd run a stiff-back or two under the ply from rail to rail.

What kind of tile do you have in mind? If I ever do another small table with tile-like material, it's going to be of smalti. It'll be a creation.

[bbcamp]

I don't have anything in mind yet. I'll just look around to see what strikes me. Our den is decorated in a seacoast/lighthouse theme, so the tiles will either match the general colo(U)r scheme or have some decrative (sp?) finish that relates to the beach or lighthouses.

I built a small coffee table a few years ago that was stained gray and distressed to give the look of a coastal something-or-other. I may go with that look for the wood portions. I may even make it with SLP! I'll let the tiles tell me what they want.

BTW, I thought that finishing the wood (not the area for the adhesive and grout, but everywhere else) before installing the tiles is the right order of business. Right?

Anyway, thanks for your help!

Bob (now with small potential project in beautiful East Tennessee)

[John Bridge]

Oh yeah, I would do all the finishing before the tile work. I made one years ago that I tiled before finishing, and the finish was pigmented lacquer. I never could get the line quite right between the lacquer and grout. Kept bleeding under the tape, etc.

[michtighe]

I'm new to your board, and hope you guys aren't sick of this question. But if you're willing to help out a newbie, I'd be most grateful. I won a shopping spree at Sears in a charity auction. I'm trying to decide whether to get a table saw or radial arm saw. My dad had a radial arm in his shop for years, so I'm a bit more familiar with it. Can anyone tell me which one you'd choose, why, and what features to look for? I'm doing mostly household DIY type projects. Just finished building a 1-1/2 thick hardwood maple peninsula desk to fit in the loft of my A-Frame, and that experience was enough to tell me I needed more than my portable power saw. (It also convinced me my Sears router was a piece of "manure", so I'm a bit anxious about buying either a table or radial arm saw there, but perhaps they do better in that category.) I'll be really grateful for any tips. Lee

[davem]

Hi Lee,
I've never used a radial arm, so some of this is just from reading. A table saw is frequently sited as the most important power tool in the woodworkers shop. Ripping on a radial arm is dangerous from what I've read, and that's a darned important function! In a table saw, a good fence is crucial. It has to lock in place parallel to the blade every time. You may want to hit the library and look through past issues of woodworking magazines, as they usually have a buyers guide or tablesaw shootout every couple of months it seems. One last thing I'd look for? lack of Sears nameplate. :)

[John Bridge]

Hi Lee, Welcome aboard. :)

I still own the radial arm saw I used to put my right eye out several years ago. I use it for cross-cutting only. I use a table saw for ripping.

Buy a table saw, but make sure you have room to operate it. As Dave said, the fence is about the single most important feature on a quality saw. You don't want to be constantly tweaking it to get it parallel to the blade.

Sears does sell most major brands of tools nowadays.

If you don't have enough room for a large table saw, consider a bench saw. It is not a perfect solution, but it will work, and it takes up much less space.

[Bud Cline]

A radialarm saw will make everyday crosscuts and with the flip of a switch you can swing the arm for angle cuts. In addition it can be easily tilted for cutting angles on another plane, and compound angles.

The arm can be elevated to control the depth of a cut for grooving and rip plowing.

An attachment can be added to turn the saw into a 10" sanding disc.

Dado cutters can be attached to do dado cuts so that you can see what is happening.

Buy the radial arm saw, but make sure you have room to operate it. The radial arm saw is everthing the table saw is, and more.

[Sonnie Layne]

I'd go for the table saw, having owned both. Problem with radial saws is adjustments and keeping them true. That's critical, depending on the quality of work you want. It's perfect to have both. Last time my radial saw was stolen, I didn't replace it. Largely because I no longer have shop space. I get by with the cross-cutting on my miter saw.

It's great that you won that spree!

[cx]

I've owned both. Get a table saw.

Back many years ago, make that many, many years ago, when Sears sold a line called Craftsman Commercial power tools, they were top of the line. Today, I would agree wholeheartedly with Davem that one of the most important features of a power tool is that it NOT say Sears on the nametag.

Not but a few months ago I gave my 30 year old 10" Radial Arm saw (Craftsman Commercial) to my framer. I hadn't used it for years. He uses them to dado grooves in long facia boards to accept soffit boards. That's one of the few good applications for a radial arm, and my saw was better than his. Besides, if I ever need one, I know where to borrow one. :)

Radial Arms are just too inaccurate for a lot of shop work, and all the saw functions it will do can be done on the table saw. There are other things the Radial Arm will do, but those can also be done more efficiently with other tools.

A shop has to have a table saw. If you haven't room, there are excellent portable tables and saws that can be quickly and easily set up outside. We discussed these in another thread - with pichers - but I ain't got no i-dee where that might be.

Then get you a good mitre saw. Preferably a Slide Compound Mitre Saw (SCMS). Then we can talk about replacing that router, which will fit nicely under the table of the portable stand for your table saw, etc. Then we can talk with your banker and get the rest of your shop stuff. :D

[Bud Cline]

Well "Poop"
Out numbered.

Maybe I'm glad I haven't bought a new radial arm saw. The one I know and love was purchased new in 1976. Craftsman.

I wouldn't trade it for any thing. It spent years riding in the back of my truck and sitting on jobsites. Still in great shape.

[kdzgon]

Originally posted by cx
...We discussed these in another thread - with pichers - but I ain't got no i-dee where that might be....

It's in this thread, starting back about page 4.


IM(Limited)O, comparing a radial arm saw and a table saw is comparing apples and oranges. A better comparison would be radial arm saw v a sliding compound miter (I vote "b" :) ).

That said, we bought the miter saw first, and completed several renovation jobs with it. If you're building furniture, though I'd think the table saw will be just the first of your tool purchases. :)

Based on their website, Sears sells multiple brands of table and miter saws, but only a Craftsman radial arm saw, if that helps your decision any.

Laurie

[kdzgon]

cx,

...waiting on that router advice..... :D

[bbcamp]

Laurie

If I could have only one router, I'd get one with 1-1/2 HP motor and could use 1/2" or 1/4" bits. I'd also look for one that had an easy to operate height changing system that locks securely in without extra tools, and has a rotation lock that allows you to change bits with only one wrench. ( I don't have that router.)

That being said, start out with one that meets as many of those features that you can afford (including the color of the plastic), then add speciality routers or duplicate routers as your work dictates. A shop can't have too many routers!

I have 2: The first is a B&D 1/4" collet, 1 hp I bought in '77 and used it for everything. The second is a 3 HP Hitachi I bought specifically for mounting in a table. It has a 1/2" collet. I now use it for everything, cause the B&D has a bad bearing and I'm too lazy to fix it.

[michtighe]

Thanks for all your suggestions. Will definitely go with the table saw (the gentleman who put his eye out convinced me PDQ), and, it sounds like, the compound miter should be next on the list. (Any suggestions on that one?)

I went back through the thread, and the posts all seem to relate to the portable models. I can sure see the advantages of those for contractors, and possibly for myself given that I could move it outside and avoid some of the dust build up. But I had been thinking of getting a heavier more or less stationary model for the workshop since I'm not a contractor and don't really need to haul it around to job sites. Space isn't limitless, but shouldn't be too big a factor--esp. if I can move the table out of the way on wheels when it's not in use, then pull it out and lock it down with stabilizing feet when it is.

I'm more concerned with accuracy, and my thought was that with the portables being so lightweight, and some of the stands for the portables (Wheeled or Unwheeled--don't want to start that one up again--:))look like they might be subject to a fair amount of vibration. Any thoughts on that? Also, if I'm reading you right, some of you are recommended a compound mitre over a radial arm as well--any suggestions which one?

Also--I would like that router advice if you're willing. It was a given for me that I'd be buying a new router. The Sears model had really cheap plastic threading to hold the motor and bit in place. You'd get everything all carefully set up and measured, start your cut, drop down what you thought would be an 1/8 inch for your next pass, and in the middle of the cut, the darned thing would vibrate loose, the bit would plunge, and totally gouge the workpiece. Now instead of nicely measured joinery, your work looks like a five-year old got going with a pair of scissors on their hair--you know, a little off this side, a little off that.... I was singing a song I wouldn't have wanted my preacher to hear. I saw one pretty highly recommended in a Woodworking magazine but it's over $300--seemed steep, but it's supposed to be really stable with a special ergonomic body grip as well as the normal handles. And am also looking at some of the combination fixed base/plung routers. Any thoughts on what's a reasonable price to pay for a reliable router--I'd be using it a lot, so I don't want to cut corners--but neither do I want to pay for a lot of unnecessary bells and whistles. Thanks again--you all have been really generous with your help.

P.S. How do you guys get those snazzy little smiley faces to show up in your posts?

[tileguytodd]

Top of the page under forum rules.Click on smilies.

Get yourself a grizzly tools catalogue.Excellant products for homeworkshops and very reasonably priced.
Everything from hand tools to dust collectors,planers,table saws.Shapers etc etc etc.If it belongs in a homeworkshop,they make it and sell it reasonable!!!!!

http://www.Grizzly.com

[Sonnie Layne]

Ok, Mich,

Far as sliding compound miter saws there's only two I would consider and believe it or not, one is the Craftsman 8" with double rails and allows a 12" cut. Problem is, it's heavier than about anything else. The other, which I currently own is Hitachi. I'll say Hitachi again. It's the most popular brand among professional trim/cabinet guys. It was a fluke that I came across experience with the Craftsman, this was maybe 6 years ago, but I was impressed.

As for routers, anything above 2hp I'd go Bosch for sure. Below that, it'd be Porter-Cable. PC also has a pretty well developed interchange system for their routers. The 3hp Bosch with soft-start technology is just lovely, tho expensive.

As for portable table saws, I own the DeWalt (the only DeWalt tool I own). Reason for that is I got it new in the box for $150. It ranks right up to the top, but regular retail is $500, and for which you could consider the Bosch. I love the fence system on my DeWalt.

For shop quality table saws, the Jet with a Bissmeier fence system is the best I've ever owned. Now all I need is a shop.

My two cents.

[cx]

If you're only gonna have one router, or that will be the case for some time at least, I recommend the Bosch 1613AEVS (make sure it's got all those letters after). Two horsepower plunge router with a real micro depth after the plunge is locked, 1/4 and 1/2 inch collets, soft start, adjustable speed, etc. This is a really nice plunge machine and is also very well adapted to use under a table (mine rarely comes off the insert for my saw table). Cost is about $200. Uses the Bosch template guide system which is a very nice quick-change system.

Look here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005RHPG/qid%3D1034017380/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/102-5317673-2102562

Some argue that for an only-one-I-got router, the DeWalt 621 (check that number, I'm not positive and don't own one) is the one to buy. It's got less power and is a lighter machine and lots of people swear by it. Won't find it as useful for table mount work, which you will want to do.

I'll come back later and disagree on SCMSs with Sonnie. :)

And table saws, too.

[Hobbit]

Its a good thing we have choices!! If not, how would we deal with everyone's different opinions!!;):D

I've found that woodworkers tend to stay with tools that work. I've also found that (hold on to your hats folks!) there is little to choose from between top lines in anything. I make my tool decisions based on practicality. Cordless tools are all DeWalt 18 volt. One battery common to all and one charger---makes life easy. I have also used Milwaukee cordless tools and have no doubt that they would also be imminently satisfactory. Compound miter saw is also DeWalt (12 inch, 15 amp). Excellent piece of equipment, easy adjustments, no nonsense workhorse (although it does tend to trip breakers, especially older installations). I also like Makita saws for the same reasons. My plunge router choice is Bosch although I currently am using a DeWalt 3hp. with soft-start that I have really come to love. I agree with Sonnie's choice on the table saw. The fence system design on the DeWalt is really solid. Rather unique for a portable saw. I have not had the opportunity to use the Bosch, but I would bet that its performance is right up there with the best.

Bench tools are a little different. I believe that the compound miter saw has basically put an end to sales of radial arm saws. However, if you have the space, the radial saw is still a worthy addition to a shop. Craftsman has had a monopoly on radial arm saws for some reason. My ten inch is a Craftsman. Real workhorse, no problems in 25 years except one starting capacitor (and brushes). The shop table saw is the one area where more is almost always better.;) More power is better; more weight is better; more fence is better; more table area is better. My choice here is the Delta Unisaw, no equivocation. Absolutely bulletproof. The Biesenmeyer fence is a worthy addition. Second choice would probably go to the Jet w/Biesenmeyer fence.

Bottom Line. Compare apples to apples. Go for features you want, not names. Some tradeoffs are okay (for practical purposes such as common batteries etc.). Buy the best you can afford. Don't Worry, Be Happy! Any of the top brands will be perfectly adequate, and if the truth is known, more capable than the operator!;):)

:):)

[John Bridge]

Thanks to modern medicine the eye was restored (somewhat). About fifty thousand dollars, several months and a dab of silicone, and I now have a re-built eyeball. I'm only boring you all with this to expound the drawbacks of using a radial arm saw to rip.

Don't do it.

[Sonnie Layne]

Advice well taken, John, after a few near misses myself. I also don't like the fact that the blade feeds toward you on the cross-cuts, but there's hardly a tool better.

CX, you'll get no arguement outa me. I currently own the Hitachi 10" SCMS and their dual bevel 10". I've replaced them both in the past year. One nice thing about getting ripped off frequently, you've always got new tools, eh? ;)

I would like input on the Bosch table saw, however, so when my DeWalt is ripped off, I'll have something to compare to. ;)

[cx]

Mich:

I don't know the particulars of John's run-in with the radial arm, but don't be misled into thinking a table saw won't put your eye out if given the opportunity. It's just that using a radial arm for ripping results in the blade position and direction of rotation being such that it wants to hurt you.

For a shop table saw, Powermatic. Mine is old enough to carbon date, and it's starting to show some of that, but it's still a great machine. Cast iron table, cast iron fence, steel extension table with big steel fence guides front and back with rack and pinion adjustment. It can be moved, but that ain't never gonna be confused with portable.
I haven't been around any of the newer models, but the common opinion seems to be that they are still fine machines.

If that's out of the price range, I would suggest you look at the new Rigid line carried by HD. The "portable" 10" in that line received low marks in a recent comparison test only because it was WAY heavy. I've never looked closely at the shop models on display, but they look pretty solid. Don't even recall what sort of fence mechanism they have, and never looked at the price. But the brand has gotten some fairly good reviews. I bought the 13" thickness planner just a few months ago and find it a very usable tool. Well built, pretty well thought out. And allegedly a "lifetime" guarantee - but I don't know whose life they're talking about.

Sonnie, I thought you had the 8" Hitachi SCMS. My complaint with all those little saws is you hafta cut nearly everything, including most crown, on the flat. I favor the bigger saws so more of the work can be cut standing up against the fence. I use, and highly recommend, the DeWalt 708 (I think that's the right number), 12" SCMS. Just a damn nice tool. Will square cut a 2x12 and damn near cut a 45 on 2x10. Accurate enough for the finest trim. Easy lock on the table swing. Good fence system. Won't cut quite as wide as a 10" radial arm, but it actually cuts the angle shown on the table. Easy bevel change both directions. Strong.

Harold:

I agree that all the top line manufacturers make some good products, but some of them have definite niches where they excel. I have several Makita tools, including some cordless, but they don't make a decent plunge router. I have several DeWalt tools, including some cordless, but they don't make a drill that's up to par. Milwaukee makes fine drills and grinders, but that's about all - OK maybe reciprocating saws, too. Bosch and Porter Cable make some fine routers, but Bosch has surged into the lead with plunge routers of late, with the 1613 and 1619.

In general, I think it's just damn difficult to keep up. And, as Sonnie suggests, once you have bought a good tool, you don't have occasion to shop the competition until the next time some asshole breaks into your trailer.

For your DeWalt cordless stuff, by the way, I sure hope they make some major improvements in battery design. My first two 18v batteries started getting poor after only about a year. Gotta do better than that, especially at $80 a pop. Makita has made a quantum leap in their 9.6v batteries, and they were already much better than DeWalt's NiCads. So much progress, eh? Soon, even John Bridge with be drilling tiles with cordless tools. :D

[kdzgon]

Originally posted by Sonnie Layne
...I would like input on the Bosch table saw, however, so when my DeWalt is ripped off, I'll have something to compare to. ;)

Funny you should say that, Sonnie... finally picked up my Bosch table saw this weekend - will keep you posted!

Now, if anyone has a nice pattern/plans for a cradle...
:D

Laurie

[tileguytodd]

Laurie, I'm sure Bud could run up to Iowa and find ya a really good Amish cradle Plan :)

[Sonnie Layne]

Laurie, I think you work in a more permanent mode than I do. Sometimes I set up for just a day, or half-day (pay's the same)

But...for my temp mode that I can store and sort in the back of my truck, of late, I've been using a pair of folding metal sawhorse brackets with 2x4 legs cut to ummm I think 32" long and then scissoring a 1x4 whatever between them. A pair of those will let my DeWalt table saw to sit squarely on them. I added a ply base to the saw, it slides in and out of my truck much easier. If you need, I'll set it up and show, now I have a digital camera.

Working on extensions, etc. that are important to cabinetry. So far I've just been winging it on the job. Y'know, like cardboard boxes of tile, or 90# bags of cement, etc. :D

Anyway, when I had my Jet set up, it was still on wheels on a heavy box I made. Kinda portable, but you wouldn'd want to move it around for just a few feet of material.

Hope this confuses things enough that no one asks serious questions (enter CX, stage left) . :D

[tileguytodd]

Hey sonnie,Check into the Plastic foldup kind.300# weight limit,Lightweight and they fit behind a truck seat (I aint kiddin)I'll never Buy another saw horse bracket :D

[kdzgon]

mine came with a folding (metal) stand, Sonnie. :)

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000664JO.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[Sonnie Layne]

Yeah, Todd, I own 3 pair of plastic ones. They're much too high, though by the time you get the table saw mounted. At one time, I bought a pair of plastic ones that would accept 1x4's into the legs, that way you could variably adjust the height. Can't find 'em anymore. Anyway, the height's the reason I opted for the brackets, that way I could make little short legs and keep the work surface to around 32", and they fold up.

Laurie, yeah that's great, too. The new DeWalts come with stands as well. They sell 'em separate for $89, I think. The reason (I've found out) that I got such a good deal on mine, was because DeWalt changed some features and rather than a recall, they just bombed 'em out. The main change was the placement of the fence lock. On mine, it's located right next to the power switch. They moved it to the other side of the front. I'll admit it's not quite safe to have them next to each other, but I've still got 10 fingers!! :)

[kdzgon]

The Bosch, Rigid, and DeWalt were all highly rated. All had accurate fences (Bosch/DeWalt/Rigid in order, but all were pretty close.) The DeWalt was more expensive, some reviewers liked the motor on the Bosch a little more (and it includes the stand now, too). The Rigid, while ranked slightly lower than the DeWalt & Bosch, was rated an excellent buy and was preferred over a number of more expensive ones. The Makita also seemed to have a following, but the fence was rated less accurate and the price was higher than either the Rigid or the Bosch. The Rigid comes with a convenient fold-down stand w/ wheels - very easy to fold down and to move (the stand folds down to what is essentially a hand truck with the saw still attached), but based on the opinions here when I was looking, I opted for a stationary stand.

When did the Amish move to Iowa? :)

[Bud Cline]

Long time ago. They make refrigerators there I think. You know? The Amana Colonies.:)

[John Bridge]

I was actually ripping a small piece of wood for the table saw I was building so that I wouldn't have to rip on the radial anymore. I finished building the saw after the operation and discovered a better way to do it. I didn't need the piece I was trying to rip.

Talk about kickin' your own ass down the road for quite a while. ;)

All's well. I'm lucky. And I still use the table saw I built. I'll take a pic of it one of these days and post it.

And oh yeah, a table saw will propel sections of wood at high velocity, too, but as CX says, the table saw won't necessarily AIM at you. ;)

[rj]

John, I sure glad you finally cleared this up....
I always wondered why you used the winking smiley so much..;)
...and here I thought you were trying to kid with us.
Now I know better......

But seriously I have an older brother that lost his eyesight due to an injury at 4 yrs old.....I wouldn't wish it on anyone..and my customers wonder why I always use safety glasses while working....:rolleyes:
Guys and Gals.....PLEASE Purchase and USE safety glasses
a $10 pair of safety glasses can save your precious eyesight and untold dollars in doctors, lost work, etc.etc.....I can tell you about many occasions that I could
have been seriously injured or worse, if not for my glasses,
and I consider myself careful.....
R.J.

[davem]

Speaking of kicking your own ass for doing something stupid to your eyes... If anyone is considering Lasik eye surgery, think twice, then think a third time. Then seek out disaster stories on the web. Hit google with "lasik disasters" and see what you get. Go to http://www.surgicaleyes.org and read with an open mind. Remember that all the commercials you hear are done by professional marketing firms. These people are making a ton of money on this and there is a percentage of people who have their lives turned upside down by the surgery.

Dave (regretting his Lasik surgery) Misevich :(

[John Bridge]

Dave,

What's your complaint?

[cx]

Yeah, Dave, let's hear it.

I've known three people had the procedure and each is extremely happy with the results. I've been giving serious consideration to it myownself since they've apparently refined it to where they can fix us what hafta have reading glasses hanging around our necks for survival.

But I'm really apprehensive when it comes to somebody cuttin' on my eyes, even if I could afford it.

[davem]

I ended up with double vision in my right eye, and slightly undercorrected. Left eye is slightly overcorrected, so it can't read too good. Both eyes are dry as a bone. First couple of months were constant head/eye aches as my eyes switched from right eye dominance to left. It's been a year and a half and my eyes still hurt from being dry all the time. I just went in a couple of months ago and had plastic plugs jammed into my tear dainage ducts in an attempt to keep some tears in my eyes. The plugs did help, now sometimes I go a couple of hours without thinking about my eyes. ;)

[davem]

cx, I just saw your post. The failure rate is about 3 to 5 out of every hundred. Pretty good odds of being happy. Pretty good odds of having your eyes permanently messed up too. Definately base your decision on the facts. Don't just go by the commercials you hear or the doctors spin. My doctor actually considers me to be a success because I can read better than 20/40 on the eyechart!! Probably puts two checkmarks in the success column because my right eye can see two of every letter. :) A great place to go for info is http://www.surgicaleyes.org . They have a support forum there, which I had to stop reading because it had me depressed all of the time. About a month after the surgery I had the closest call I would ever care to make with depression. Luckily I pulled out of it, man that was scary.

[Sonnie Layne]

so,, uhh,,, what's the problem with seeing double?? :) Believe me, you get used to driving between the four lines :)

Not to make light, Dave. That's a scary story. Are those odds current stats?

[davem]

As far as I know they are Sonnie. I haven't been obsessed with it lately like in the beginning. I regret that I did it, and kick myself for not researching it beforehand. I was caught up in the hype, and figured they had it "perfected". The doctor blew some stats at me, but the impression I got was that the worse thing that could happen would be I would still need a thin pair of glasses. I don't tell people not to do it, just to research carefully and make a logical decision. It is a gamble.

[Sonnie Layne]

Sounds kinda like back surgery. Risks aren't all that high, but can be very bad.

[kdzgon]

Not to derail this thread, but if anyone looks for a cradle pattern, keep an eye out (no pun intended :)) for plans for a changing table too, ok?

[cx]

Ah, would this be for anyone we know? :)

[michtighe]

This is in reply to, I think, Laurie, who has been asking about cradle plans. In the course of looking for something else (which is about how I find everything), I stumbled across this site, which has photos and plans for a cradle project. http://www.atnetsend.net/woodworking.shtml

I did my shopping spree at Sears on Friday. True to form, they did not have a salesperson in the joint who could tell you bupkis about what they had to offer. After the third hand-off, I was referred to the Sears industrial tool catalog, but no one could tell me what model numbers of Powermatics and Delta's their catalog numbers referred to. The guy kept trying to get me to buy a Delta 744, but based on your recommendations (and some other reviews I'd read) I was holding out for at least at 746, if I couldn't get a Bosch or the Unisaw or Powermatic. He eventually found a 746, but once you added a 50" fence and an extension table, you were talking about $1500, so for that price, I decided to hold off and see what else was available (and where).

By the way--can the people who were recommending the Delta Unisaw and the Powermatic tell me what model numbers they had in mind. Evidently, Powermatic has several different versions of both their 66 and 64 models, and Delta has a number of options as well.

Anyway, in the end, I did used by spree to buy the DeWalt 708 12" SCMS (which came highly recommended by one of you folks, so thanks--I think!) It's pretty pricey, but it has gotten great reviews (except for having a shortage of stops on the bevel, I gather). Does anyone know if there is that much difference between the Dewalt 708 and the 705 (which is also 12" but about $300 cheaper)? And what's your collective opinion about the value of Sears' extended warranties--if I pass on it I may actually have enough of the "spree" left over to get my kid a blouse and a few pairs of school shoes?

On the Lasix note, let me add this thought--I've had a number of friends get the surgery, have it go swimmingly, and recommend it without reservation. Thinking back to the brief period of time that I was able to wear soft contacts (before I developed an allergy not only to the cleansers, but to the plastics used to make the lenses themselves), I'm enthralled with the notion of waking up in the morning and actually being able to see without fumbling around blindly for my glasses. As I age and shift into the bi-and-tri-focal range, the whole thing sounded even more enticing.

Fortunately, I was luckier than Dave, and found an optician who was more concerned about patient care (or, perhaps, liability) than about the kickback most of these guys make for referring Lasix patients to the eye surgeons. Some of us have drier eyes than others to begin with. If we do, or if we are prone to seasonal allergies, lupus, or other conditions that make our eyes dry, itchy or irritated on a regular basis, we are very poor candidates for this surgery. That "I've got something in my eye that's driving me crazy but I can't find it and get it out" feeling that usually lasts only a couple of days (or for the lucky few, a couple of hours) after the anesthesia wears off, can last a lifetime if we proceed with Lasix.

People who have poor night vision, or unusually wide dilation of their pupils, are also poor candidates--the surgery makes them much more susceptible to night blindness or to painful reactions to glare. Some have been unable to drive past dusk after having the surgery. And people who are both near and far sighted or have wide disparities in visual accuity between their two eyes would be well advised to think at least twice before having it--currently they have no way to correct each eye to 20-20, so they over correct one eye and under correct the other, hoping it will all balance out in the middle. Or they correct both eyes for distance vision, and let you wear reading glasses when you need close up correction. And, the surgery does nothing whatever for astigmatism.

Now eye was so bent on freeing myself from glasses that I sought out a second opinion--fortunately for me, the second guy said not only no, but hell no. But from the papers and other horror stories I've read since then, I realize now how lucky I was to find two docs willing to turn me away from a surgery that would have put 500-1000 in their pockets (without them having to even do the surgery).

Now, before I retired, I was a lawyer, so maybe that had something to do with their reluctance. But I used to have to warn people (including my own parents) away from the hucksters that use telemarketing, direct mail, internet ads, door-to-door sales and T.V. ads to market legal services. (My parents weren't looking to get rich by suing anyone--they were nearly taken in by some guys selling "living trusts" door-to-door.) The bottom line is that a real professional doesn't need to mass market his or her services in a one-size fits all fashion. And a real and ethical professional doesn't need to go out and try to drum up "sales" with advertising, etc.--he or she has invested the time and experience in building up a reputation that will earn him or her a referral from colleagues and/or clients when a new client already knows he or she needs to see a lawyer.

IMO, the same holds true for doctors--including eye surgeons. If one of them has to advertise on the radio or the newspaper to get bodies in the door for Lasix (or any other procedure), my advice would be to run like hell in the opposite direction. If you think you're interested in Lasix, I would recommend asking your family doctor, then your current optician, whether they think you are a viable candidate, what are the pros and cons, and for three or more recommendations. Get some recs from friends or family who have had the surgery as well. Then check the doctors out with the Medical board in your state--find out if the person has any disciplinary record, pending or settled lawsuits, etc. Check the BBB, too. It might be worthwhile to check them out with your insurance company--even if your insurance doesn't cover the surgery.

Find out where the person went to medical school, where they did their residency, whether they are board certified, and at what hospitals they hold privileges. Most will be using some sort of out-patient surgery center--it might be worth paying the place a visit. Is it clean? Do the staff look professional? Is the waiting room a cattle call? I'd be especially cautious about anyone proposing to do surgery in his or her office--things can go wrong, even with a local. Is emergency resuscitation equipment on hand, or are you going to be propped in a chair turning blue while someone fumbles around calling 9-1-1?

While on that topic--what kind of hygiene do the doctors and staff employ in their own offices? Are hands thoroughly washed each time the doc enters and leaves a room? It's amazing how many doctors and health staff ignore this fundamental principle of infection control (one quirk I've often noticed in the post-HIV era is medical personnel, including lab techs, who meticulously don a pair of gloves to draw blood, etc., then leave them on as they move from patient to patient--offering the nurse or tech some measure of protection, but the patients absolutely zero). If all this seems excessive, consider that it's your EYES we're talking about, that post-op infections picked up in hospitals or operating theaters account for an inordinate number of negative outcomes (including deaths), and that more and more of the bacteria involved in these infections are antibiotic resistant.

Okay, sorry to go off on that, but all these ads and promotions for lawyers have rotted my socks for years, and I hate to see doctors, hospitals, etc. headed in the same direction. And now all these danged t.v. ads for medicines, like you're going to prescribe for yourself....Oh well, back to routers.

[Sonnie Layne]

Laurie, http://www.hobbymall.com/woodworking/wood.htm

[cx]

Major large difference betwix the DeWalt 708 and 705, Mitch. The 708 is a slide compound while the 705 is just a compound saw - no slide action. If you need another big miter saw, get the 706 instead. It's a redesign of the 705 and will cut a little more than six inches at the fence, like for tall baseboard and such. It's on my wish list. I'm glad you got you a 708 (I'm amazed you can buy that at Sears). You won't be sorry, it's a fine machine. You are correct about it having no stops on the bevel tilt, except at 45 degrees. I think you'll find you can do quite well without stops, but it is a little difficult to read the bevel scale, 'specially if you haven't had the Lasic surgery. ;) I get along fine with both the 705 and 708 with my reading glasses.

I can't help with model numbers for the Powermatic. My antique has a number I'm sure, but it wouldn't mean anything in buying today's saws. I do think if you're willing to spend in the 1,500 dollar range, Powermatic is one of the machines you should look at. Good reputation for sure. Did you look at the Ridgid saw? I keep meaning to look whilst I'm in HD, but keep forgetting. I'll pewt it on my list - the eyes may be the first to go, but memory ain't all that far behind. :)

Thanks for the insight (pun intended) on the eye surgery. I'm still thinking.

[Hobbit]

Mitch:

I don't believe the Unisaw has different models. There have been some upgrades over the years, but a Unisaw is a Unisaw is a Unisaw!.... Incidentally, mine was purchased from a contractor friend in 1978 who assured me that it had many good years left...........he was right. The only drawbacks to this kind of a saw are 1) its weight, they are not portable. and 2) its price, they are not cheap.;) As I said before about shop saws, I believe more is better (more power, more weight, more fence, more table etc.)

If you check the tool catalogs, you will find that the Unisaw is available with different configurations, anniversary editions, etc. They are all the same basic saw. Some differences in the way they are packaged. Like I said, if I were purchasing one today, I would elect the Biesenmeyer fence and table additions----whatever package that is.:)

Incidentally Mitch, I have never heard of anyone who used a Unisaw, who did not like it. They are absolutely bulletproof. I would recommend that you check around on some of the other forums. There will always be some difference of opinion, but I think you will find the Unisaw is very highly recommended.:)

:):)

[John Bridge]

If I could fit the Unisaw into my shop even without the extensions and the big fence, I'd have one. Accuracy. You forgot to mention accuracy. The motor and arbor set-ups are solid. That's part of the weight. They put some metal in those saws.

http://www.deltawoodworking.com/images/product_images/2/36-820L/36820L.gif

[Sonnie Layne]

Wha????

nobody likes the Jet? or has anyone else used one? I loved mine.

[cx]

Only experience I've ever had with Jet equipment was bad, Sonnie. That was a 24 inch band saw, owned by my door maker (I give him pictures of Andy Jackson and he lets me use his big tools when I need to). The drive belt had broken and the company couldn't even find him a replacement. We pieced together one of those add-a-link-'till-it's-long-enough belts and I finally got my work done. He was willing to let me have that tool REAL cheap.

Never tried their table saws.

[Sonnie Layne]

Fair enough, I didn't have the table saw long enough for it to need any replacements. Someone in OK probably has it now.

Can't figure how much nerve it took to get it out of my shop that fast. It was on casters so I could roll it out as needed for space, but tethered with 1/2" cable to a clutch poured in the concret floor. they opened the door, alarm went off, they ploughed thro' the cable painstakingly with a chisel (i think), loaded the damned thing up along with all my pneumatic fasteners, stationary planer, radial saw and 5hp compressor. Shot out the safety lights with pellet guns, neighbors thought it was a false alarm. 8pm, I was out for dinner. Life in the city. But... I'm a city mouse.

Still, the Jet I had for about 18 months, dead on accurate, quiet, lotsa power and big enough runouts that one person could handle the ply with ease (my favourite). Easily could handle production work all day, tho' as I said before I didn't have it long enough to need to buy parts etc....

I'll defer the remainder of my time to the esteemed gentleman from Boerne, TX, if it please the chair. :)

[davem]

Laurie, here's a link to a crib plan.

http://store.yahoo.com/plansnow/crib.html

[michtighe]

Thanks for all the tips, folks. Just got the 708 home--guess next weekend's going to be designated for garage excavation. That thing was bigger than I thought.

Do you need a unisaw if you've already got the 708 SCMS? I realize I made this acquisition bass-ackwards, but it was plain to me I'd be up in the faux-jewelry section before long for all the Sears salesperson knew about saws of any ilk. As it was, it had to be special ordered from their industrial catalog. The store only had one of those, but you "tool-mites" should try to lay your hands on one if you can. Lots of neat, non-Craftsman tools.

[Hobbit]

Mitch, I deal with Sears Industrial (by catalog) when I have to.;) Yes, the one advantage is the ability to get (read order) tools from Sears that are not available through "regular" channels. Some of it I've been happy with, some not!

The Unisaw (or any table saw) is of course a completely different tool than your SCMS. If you plan on doing any wood projects other than cross cutting dimensional lumber, chances are very good to excellent that you will require the use of a table saw. Some people get along very well with a portable, lightweight saw. But for shop use, nothing beats a shop saw. For me, that means a Unisaw.:)

:):)

[Ron Teti]

Yea Sonny im with you about the Jet. If I were to buy another saw it would be a Jet. I already have a delta platinum contractors but I like the Jet. I bought a Jet jointer and man right out of the box it had a finished look and the instruction manual and ease of assembly wow.

[Sonnie Layne]

yeah, I remember the instruction booklet...

"were it to pleas the gentileman to place the blad guard on before he pleas to introduc wood to blade"

somethin' like that, but hey. All trim carpenters I know swear by Hitachi (as I) and they're coming out of HongKong. (not to be confused with KingKong). :)

My first intro to Chinese translated to Am Eng was in the computer biz, when we would buy the components, motherboards, sisters and firmware...then had to read instructions...wow...they really did know what was what, and speaking to them you knew it as well, but if you don't know foreign languages, it's the hardest to write them. Still a bit of humour and a lot learned.

Now pleas you to deligate wrist to left, smush right finger on mous on dilog. You will then see video cheep which we fast runner on doing over.

[kdzgon]

Anyone ever build/install a Murphy bed? If so, any advice on which hardware/kit is preferable?

Thanks -

Laurie

[John Bridge]

Is that the bed that folds up into the wall?

[cx]

Yep.

Yep.

Yep.

I'll see can I find some paperwork with a name on it. There is a definite difference in operating hardware. You want the kind without springs.

Gotta go back to work, but I'll find it later this evening.

[flatfloor]

We once had a Murphy bed, my little brother and the dog were missing for a week shortly after we got it. Fortunately for my brother my Mom missed the dog. :D

Try this http://woodworker.com/Murphy_Bed_Hardware.htm it's one ofseveral I found, did a Google for Murphy bed hardware.

[tomtuttle]

I believe that JET Tools is on the AFL-CIO boycott list as a result of anti-labor practices relative to the Teamsters. It's actually a pretty exclusive list. Not just any annoying company makes it. Meaningful to me.

[cx]

Coors was on that list for many years, Tom, but I think the wimps took if off a long time ago. Not sure. Still aughta be on there.

End of Union rant. :D

Laurie:

These are the people from whom I bought hardware some four years ago. Was very happy with it. Overpriced for what they actually send you, but they got some and you aint. :) http://www.wallbed.com/

Works as advertised if you build per their plans. I, of course, had to modify it some for my special application and I had only a little trouble getting them to send me different parts and work with me on slight re-design. They were OK to work with.

Here is bed what I made. I don't know if I can do two pichers in one post like the big guys. :(

Bed opened:

[Sonnie Layne]

Hey Tom, send me a PM as to why that should influence my buying another.

Laurie, for the price of the hardware, buy it!!! I built one probably 8 years ago for a girl with limited space. Determined, I made my own. Don't do that!! (he says abashedly). It worked but my-oh-my.!

Where's the abashed smiley?

S

[cx]

Bed closed:

Looky there, ol' Sonny done sneaked in twix my pichers. :)

How does one post multiple pichers per post?

[davem]

One doesn't. ;)
Nice bed. :)

[Sonnie Layne]

well, heck, if you weren't so damned slow!!! :D:D

[John Bridge]

Those that do have a picher park other than this site. ;)

[kdzgon]

Jim, thanks for the link, though I did a search already and read lots of the links - that's why I asked for advice re: preferable hardware!

cx, I love the look of that wall as well as your bed. What is so different with your design that you needed modifications? I was at that site, but after all my reading, could not figure out if floor or wall support was better, so I really appreciate your feedback.

I have ordered the hardware - I can't actually start the project for a month or two, but I'll try to post pics when (if?) I ever finish!

You guys are great ... XOXOXO to you!

Laurie

PS: Dave, a belated thanks to you, too. While I didn't care for the crib, that site has some nice plans for other projects - I ordered one of those, too ~

[davem]

Yer welcome Laurie. Have you built anything yet? Ya just hasta post pictures you know! :p

[cx]

Many sleeps since then, Ms. Laurie. :)

As I recall, the problem was that their design assumes that you will build an exposed cabinet-type structure and part of the final assembly involves spreading the two side pieces at the bottom or being able to access the outside of the side pieces to install the hinge pin that connects the bed portion to the cabinet portion.

I wanted my installation to be fully captured in an alcove that would never be accessible from the outside after completion, which seems to me something they would have anticipated. But they didn't.

Anyway, their hinge assembly is a two piece, male/female arrangement whereby you install one piece to the bed frame and then install the other piece from the outside of the cabinet. At least that's kinda what I recall. The fix was to have them send me (for more dinero, of course) another set of the hinges so I could mount both female halves and then fabricate two pins that I could install from inside the bed frame. Wasn't a big deal when it was done, but it took a lot of haggling and whining to get them to admit what the specs on the pin were and finally to tell me what I could purchase locally to match it and on and on. Was a lot more trouble than it needed to be, mostly because, it seemed to me, they were afraid I was trying to steal their design.

Then there was the matter of my needing to change the construction of the bed frame so I could make the outside of it with individual boards so as to match the wall I was building it into. That changed the weight of the materials which is critical to the exact placement of the hinge and the ends of the operating cylinders. Almost had to send Vinny up there to make them tell me how to figure which way and how much to move the mounting locations. It is very critical, by the way, which is why they give you different specs if you are using plywood rather than particle board (which they kinda like).


But it all worked out fine. If you build yours just like they tell you in their plans, it'll work fine. Once you figure it all out, you'll see how very simple it actually is. What they're really selling is a lot of trial and error and probably a good bit of product liability insurance. Once properly installed, it really is a nice, smooth, easy to operate system.

[Sonnie Layne]

Since this is a woodworking topic, I thought I'd share with you some info I came across. It involves crown mouldings and the different miter/bevel settings you need to use to acheive a proper fit when dealing with corners that are not square (normally the case).

Anyway, it's come in handy for me. In PDF form so you'll need Acrobat reader. Most everyone has that. If you don't, I can convert it for you. Drove myself nuts for years trying to figure this out. Now I keep a copy laminated and handy by my mitre saw. Not for everyone, but thought someone has had the same problem as myself.

www.sonnielayne.com/g_info/ms1060_angle_38.pdf
www.sonnielayne.com/g_info/ms1060_angle_45.pdf

[WilliamL]

Nothing really to say-I just re-read this thread and thought it should be brought back to life.

BTW.does anybody know of a sight that offers free woodworking plans,good one?Thanks, Bill

[woodie]

john i'm new to the site but i am a woodworker also, check out some of my work, ( you have to get through most of my web site they are in the last 2 pages www.geocities.com/restaurant_services/page1

[John Bridge]

Woodie,

Nice looking stuff. Looks like you've worked with pine. Takes class. :)

But Woodie, it's clear you ain't no webmaster. :D Took me a long time to find the wood projects. :)