Mud Men

[Dave Ashton]

Compared to you guys Im no mud man, but Im working on it. Its a slow process teaching yourself. When I say, "well, I could float it," to a contractor, they look at me like I may be a graduate of the local levitation academy. Is floating mortar a dying art? Sort of like cutting your own rafters(something I pride myself in being able to do BTW). Why? I see it as the ultimate in flexibility. Is it just because it requires a little back flexing, or do you guys think it comes down to economics....backerboard vs. mortar. Boy, this Busch really makes a guy philosophical....see John,I do have well rounded taste in hops and barley.

Dave

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[kalford]

Installing Mudbeds is a dying craft.Strange because due to todays speedy construction practices mudbeds are actually "needed" more than ever...or at least a good SLC.Either way the talent required to properly lay in a mudbed has dwindled away.I'm old fashioned when it comes to my work.I believe that by and large the old ways are better ways and I pay great attention to detail.
I am good friends with Derek&Jacqui who live about 10 miles from me.Derek has done just about every type of tile/stone installation you can think of and believe me I pick his brain all the time.He recently schooled me in the art of mud and let me tell you that if I can choose between setting tile on a mudbed or CBU I'm going with the mudbed.Material wise the cost isn't much.But it is labor intensive and a good craftsman has to be paid for their talent.

You a Busch man? I am...got two left in the fridge....they won't be there this time tomorrow.

[Rob Z]

Hi Dave, Keith

Keith is right on the money when he notes that today's construction practices require mud to hide the multidude of sins.

Knowing that mud was the answer is what drove me to attend CTEF and learn to do it. There are a few people around here still doing mud, but they are few and far between.

In the past 12 months, I think I put CBU's on floors only two, maybe three times. The rest were mud. i don't have a problem using CBU's, it is just that the subfloors are so ugly that i dont know how anyone can tile them without lippage on every piece.

I don't mind cement board on walls, because I can usually add and plane studs quick enough to make it work for cement board . Sometimes, though things are ugly enough to require mud.

Dave, come to VA like we discussed. You'll be muddin' in no time. Floors, at least. Walls are still hard work for me (haven't done enough of them to be really fast).

Busch beer: My roommate and I painted a huge Busch beer label on our wall in college (approx 6' x 10'). What else can you do to avoid studying?

It's so damn hot here that I haven't had a beer in three days. I never thought I'd say it's too hot for beer.

[John Bridge]

IT IS NEVER, EVER, TOO HOT FOR BEER!

I think it was yesterday that I looked at the weather map and saw that it was going to be hotter in parts of Canada than here.

[John Bridge]

Speaking of mud men, I could use one. Jon RoBear, the guy who took the job in France, was going to help me on my upcoming "castle" job. That job will take my helper and me between 8 and 10 weeks to complete.

Last night, my one and only builder calls to inform me that another job will be ready for tile about 4 weeks into the first one. On top of that we have two smaller jobs that will each require 2 to 3 weeks.

This is all mud work. All ground-level floors are "floating." All second level floors are lath and mortar. (I might be talked into CBU on the second story, since the construction is all trusses.) All showers and tub surrounds are lath and mortar. Exterior work can possibly be thin set, depending on type of material. If it's stone, it'll be mudded in.

There is seldom any wall tile used on these jobs. More often the showers will be marble, and the tiles will be custom stuff. Ever heard of Walker-Zanger?

I'm really not looking to hire anyone outright. We're not set up for that insurance-wise. If anyone is interested, he or she will contract directly with the builder. (I will, of course, tell them exactly how to bid.) The rates are pretty good.

There is absolutely no room for slop. Everything is top drawer, or it's torn out and re-done.

I can't hire anyone locally. The good ones are tied up, and the rest can't cut it.

All of this gets started the end of this month and will run through the winter.

Email: john@johnbridge.com

[Harry]

You're right about the heat up here John .... Toronto has declared a heat emergency of some kind. It hasn't been this hot since the 60's, and we're booked solid 12 and 14 hour days through the whole thing.

Hey .... you guys down there been throwing stuff into the Great Lakes?? :) We seem to have some kind of fresh water fish that is attacking swimmers in Lake Erie and leaving very serious wounds. Based on doctors examinations of the wounds the 2 sets of teeth are 13 cm apart which is a pretty big mouth compared to anything I've ever caught.

Harry Dunbar

[John Bridge]

Harry,

A very large and very ellusive "Northern Pike," perhaps?

Get some tackle, man. You can land him.

As far as pollution is concerned, Jim "flatfloor" reported that he was up in the Cat's Hills this past weekend. It's in someplace called "Upstate." I think it might be close to Canada. Maybe he got rid of some of his outdated SLC.

[JC]

I was planning on going to Lake Erie to swim this weekend?
Now I am kinda wondering?

Hmmmm

[John Bridge]

Geez, I just looked at your post again. 13 cm is pretty close to six inches. Do you think maybe "Jaws" went freshwater?

[John Bridge]

JC,

What's the email situation. You didn't post for a couple days. Did the volume decrease? I swear I can't figure out how to turn it off.

Do you know how to kill the email notification on the board, Harry?

[Bud Cline]

I'm still gettin' 'em John.

[JC]

still getting them, there is no escape.
They died off for a few days but now there back.

[chip]

I only get them for the old posts. Not the ones since I turned it off.

Harry,

I'll bet it's Sturgeon, they have them in Lake St. Clair so they have probably worked there way down the Detroit river and into Lake Erie.

They are a particularly nasty fish. Prehistoric, in fact.

Are you saying it hasn't been in the 100's F., in Toronto since the '60's? Or is it the stretch of high heat?

Art

[Harry]

They think it may be a "Bow Fin". It has the reputation of defending its nesting area. The biologists and Fisheries Dept are investigating, but I've just never heard of fresh water fish attacking anyone.
Art .... we had some hot spells but this has been a longer stretch than usual.... my lawn is a desert now.

Harry

[chip]

Not sure what a Bowfin is, but it isn't uncommon for Sturgeon to attack. Talk to some of your Canadian or US friends, who live in the Windsor/Detroit area.

Enjoy the heat, it sure beats the alternative. Just think you only have another 20 days to put up with it, and then you won't have to put up with it for another 8 to 9 months.

Sure makes it easy to keep the beer cold, those 8 to 9 months though, doesn't it?

By the way, I just noticed that you are from Barrie. Do you know Don Reid, he manufactures "Master Level?"

If you guys don't have one of them you are missing out on a great tool. The vials are adjustable, so if you drop it or it ever goes out of level, it's no problem. You will be back to level in a minute. It's also a top reader, so you mud men don't have to stand on your head to read the bubble and yes it has hand holes. Also offers several interesting attachments.

If you know him and or see him, tell him I said Hi!!

Art

[John Bridge]

Art,

I made a statement 10 years ago in my book to the effect that adjustable levels are out of adjustment most of the time. I think it still holds true.

The other problem with the lightweight "top readers" is that they're not very sturdy. It also seems to me the vial would get covered with mud and be hard to wash.

My levels usually last 2 to 3 years, maybe 4, after which I survey them out and buy new ones. I always buy real masonry levels with I-beam construction. Keeps them from warping when they are wet, which is most of the time.

[chip]

You can do a quick check, 10 seconds, to see if your level is set. If it's off, a tweek with a phillips and your back working. You can even change your vial in the field.

As for weak, these are box beam alluminum, very tough, like stabilla, only better.

I not sure how your top vial would get covered in mud. At least not any more than any other vial.

It was just another of the fine companies that I had the pleasure of working with in my past.

Art

[John Bridge]

Well, on the ones I've seen the vial is just that -- a vial with no glass covering. The glass covering keeps the mud away from the vials in my levels. You wash the glass; you don't have to pick mud from around the vial.

Show me one you can throw into a truck-type tool box and then drop a couple of cutting boards on top of without damaging it. That's the way my helper stows my levels.

[Rob Z]

I had a helper a few years ago who piled everything from the job on top of my straightedges. I even said "Make sure that the levels and straightedges are on top of all that stuff" (we were cleaning up from a big job and had an entire van load of junk).

It's not enough to tell them what to do everytime they do something, it seems that you actually have to go and do it for them.

John, do you know this guy?

[Bud Cline]

I have never had a replaceable vial level that stayed tuned very long. Maybe I didn't ever buy the right brand. Seems to me that the feature that allows the vials to be adjusted is what also allows them to counter tweak from a truck ride.

I am very careful with my levels and still only get about three years out of one.

You think levels suck on a truck ride, carry your laser level around with you all the time and see what happens.

[kalford]

Hey Bud,
I've got a Laser Level that I bought at Lowes.It's the small one,about 10" long with the magnets and strap slots,cost $99.99. Do you know where I could find a case for it? I hate to carry it in my tool box without a cover of some kind.Didn't see any at Lowes.

[JC]

Yea buy a cheap gun carrying case from K-mart.

[Bud Cline]

I think JC is on the right tack.

You can buy cases of every shape and size these days, but get one that has the foam rubber inserts, plenty of foam rubber. I have seen these cases with foam inserts that have pre-cut removable pieces so you can pretty well design the interior of the case yourself by simply discarding some of the cutouts.

Mine came with a "cheap" case but non-the-less a case. After not using it for a while and upon opening the case, I find that each and every time "some assembly is required".

[cx]

Don't know what kind of lasers you guys are buying, but y'all might want to check the current issue of the JLC for a review of self-leveling models.

Mostly what it said is somebody aughta make a really good one that does what everybody needs done.

[JC]

I just use a 45% one myself. there is no self-leveling.

I'll check it out.

[Bud Cline]

kalford,

Here's a place to start looking for a case for your laser, notice the "pick 'n' pluck" feature.

http://www.cameratech.com/Products/Pelican_Cases.html

[Sonnie Layne]

I sometimes get the option of using a level. Most all my work is on really old homes, so out with the level and square. Typically have to build everything to the structure. I'm sure glad we don't build 'em like we used to.

[kalford]

Sonnie,
I use to remodel mobile homes in Florida for a management company.There too you can forget the level and square.Cut to fit.Lot of "custom" work.I enjoyed it because it really tested your talents.

[John Bridge]

Among my various occupations, I've done joinery work on small boats. Another situation where levels are of no use whatever. "Level" depends on which side of the boat you're standing on/in.

As far as "ticking off" around a room, I still use my trusty water level. Costs about $20 to make one, takes two men/women to operate, but never fails (depending on how many Miller's one consumed the night before).

[kalford]

John,
You can always tell when you've had too many beers......when you start arguing with your tools..................outloud.You know..like when you place your level against the wall,it reads level and you say,outloud,"you stupid bastard...that can't be right!!"

[Bud Cline]

That's pretty funny but oh so true. When I check for plumb the first time and the level shows plumb I always turn the level over just to see if it's working. I know it can't be right.

[Sonnie Layne]

Hell, I just drop a couple of marbles on the floor.......

[Derek & Jacqui]

Art,
I must take you to task over Stabilla. I purchased one in 1963 and it was guaranteed to take a 50' drop and stay true. The only reason it is not with me now is that I left it in England. It was still true in 1995.
John,
Try the solid bubbles, they read true anyway round. They might chip, but they do not break. I use an "American" level which I bought from Lowes 6 years ago - no problems with it so far. I haven't been able to find Stabilla in these parts.
I made my own water level from a 3 gallon plastic gas can with 50 ft of clear tube attached to the breather hole. This allows me to use it on my own.

[John Bridge]

I've heard about one-man water levels. Never could figure out how they worked, though. I'm standing there by the container, and I yell "mark!" Who does the marking?

Just kidding of course. I'm dumb but not stupid.

So who does the marking?

[Bud Cline]

Where is Mark these days, did he go with Clovis?

This one man water level thingy. Why wouldn't a jug on one end and a dummy on the other work? This would give you the same reference mark at either end of the room would it not(assuming that's how they work).

Tell us more D & J.

[Sonnie Layne]

got me thinking, damned that's dangerous. Seems gravity would have an effect. If you had a container (such as a gas can) with a vent on it ... would you not close the vent, squeeze the container to fill the tubing, then open the vent and release the container? Siphoning wouldn't occur beyond the highest point of the tubing, which would be close to the neck of the container. Am I thinking out both sides of my brain? If all that's correct, and I haven't tried it, you could then stumble over (depending on how many), make a tic and measure down the distance from the high point of tubing to the floor??? I mean, seems to me the point is to get a length of tubing parially filled with water, fix one end to one point so the tubing can be flexed around the room, let the water settle, then tic. So actually, I don't guess you'd need the container, but seems to make sense to me. I know what you're going to say, Bud... don't say it... allow me. Everything makes sense to Sonnie, he's so spaced out with the ostriches from Venus.

If you measure the velocity of the marbles once dropped on the floor, with a slide rule and a Craftsman screwdriver one could easily ascertain the difference in grade from one end of the Louvre to the other.

[Bud Cline]

You may be correct Sonnie, but wouldn't it depend on the color of the screwdriver handle?

[John Bridge]

All right, here's the problem. Each time you move the water level (plastic hose, usually) you change the volume it can contain. The water can rise on both ends, for example, if there is a tight turn in the hose, say, going around a corner into another room.

The other "dummy" adjusts the water height on the intitial "benchmark" while you hold your end against the wall. When the water is level with the original mark, the dummy calls out, "hey, dummy, make a mark."

So with the one-man/woman version, how is the dummy adjustment made on the end you can't see? And, hence, how secure can you be in your reading?

That's what I wanna know.

[Bud Cline]

In the one man version I don't think you can work from a benchmark. I think you have to work from a "tick". Wouldn't a closed water system give you......nevermind I'm confused. I thought I had this figured out but now I'm not sure. Yeah that would work! No it wouldn't! Yes it would because.....

I hate to argue, I'm out of here.


I give up Sonnie, educate me.

[Derek & Jacqui]

Bud,
The way I use a water level is to make a guage out of a piece of 2 x 1/2" timber indicating my tile lines. I put the container on a stack of tiles about the same heigth as my tile line. I attach the tube to the guage with tape making sure there are no bubbles or kinks in the tube, then mark the guage at the water line. You can then move the guage around the room moving the guage up or down until it hits the line then transfer the tile line to the wall. It is one of the most accurate levels there is. We add food dye to the water to make the water more visable. It helps to have a stopper at the end of the tube to use when moving the tube around.

[tileprof]

awww comon you guys- 1man water level-made one out of 18"x 6" dia. pcv pipe (resoviour),30-50 ft 0f 1/2"clear tubing. cut pcv on angle at top,cut cross with minigrinder on high side of angle,cap bottom,need cap with spigit attachment,attach hose,put screw/nail on wall,attach resoviour at cross,fill with water(no color-it stains tubing).no bubbles in tubing,(get your foot off the hose art) make a bench mark at all internal/external corners, with a story pole(jury stick,idiot stick)mark bench.
if that doesn't work,caulk all cracks, fill entire room with water...lol

[Sonnie Layne]

exactly right, prof. Took the words right out of my mouth, except wouldn't the compressible container enable you to expel/withdraw water from the tubing?

[John Bridge]

I think what Sonnie's tryin' to say is, what if you spill some water? It's tough for a poet, I know.

And you haven't answered the question about how the hose can change its volume by being flexed in different ways as it travels around the room/building.

[Bud Cline]

OK that's it, I'm already sick of this. I think I'll just stay with my old fashioned rotating laser beam. By the time I rig all that stuff you guys are talking about and carry all that water around I can have the room layed out and be tiling my way to the paycheck.

[Edited by Bud Cline on 08-21-2001 at 10:02 PM]

[Sonnie Layne]

I think the only way the hose could change it's volume is by the volume being changed. The bends and kinks would have nothing to do with it. Don't make me come down there with my paint brush and STOP THIS CAR!!!!

[John Bridge]

Sonnie,

Look at it this way. I know this is an exageration, but . . .

Suppose the entire length of hose were crushed flat?

[Sonnie Layne]

then I suppose the water would have been forced back into the container and what few drops remaining in the hose would find their level. After relieving the petcock, and squeezing the container everthing would continue on. A mop would be required to take care of the water expunged by the hapless fellow (animal/timbre) who/which happened across the tubing at the wrong time. Gravity reigns.

What would happen if the sun fell from the sky? Answer: it can't. There is no force to draw it and there is no sky there.

In the mean time, I'm faced with dried grout haze for the first time in my experience because I just flat ran out of wind tonight. Any suggestions? Porcelain floor tile, random layout (12x12, 6x12, 6x6) pitted faced, so it sinks in nicely. Should I wait a few days and do the sulfamic crystal thingy? So bad, I was off sick yesterday and just didn't have the stamina to apply and clean 75# of grout by myself today.

s

[tileprof]

the water level is older than all the members added together,i still use one!the one i described costs about$10.
each time you move to a new mark plug the end up,once water is lost the elevation is changed.

ie. sonnie: public womens washroom and change room...lets say a dozen cubicals ,all tiled to 8 ft dado.by the time you have set up your laser 12 times i'd be tiling.unless you know a way to bend laser beams!not to mention hitting the same elevation each time the tripod is moved! don't get me wrong lasers are faster in certain cases i have played with them when the contractor provides them .On large areas i like to use a transit(dumpy/builders level)but requires 2 people,its excellent for setting spots on large floors.

[chip]

That is not my foot, it's the bucket of mud you wanted and who are you calling an idiot stick?

With this method all of you are trying to describe, does the resevoir need to be kept at the same height to maintain the water pressure for consistancy?

Curious minds want to know!

Art

[Sonnie Layne]

Hope you're not asking me, I've never used one, hehe. I'm the guy with the marble/slide rule routine.

Oh, and sure, you can brag about stepping in a bucket of mud (funny) but I'll bet you can't brag about shooting yourself in the gut with a nail gun!!! Ah well, at least I've got all ten fingers.

s

[Edited by Sonnie Layne on 08-22-2001 at 09:02 AM]

[Bud Cline]

Oddly enough last year when I wainscotted the restrooms at the local country club I was able to use my laser to shoot into and layout eight cubicles all in one sweep from one setup position. All that is required is one little ole tick mark established by the laser beam, then from that mark a standard level can be used to complete the remainder of the cube.

I use the laser to establish tick marks at the corners and changes then chalk line or bubble level from these ticks.

Rotary Laser Levels are very inexpensive these days and all of you fuddy duddys can afford one. Get with guys "times they are a changin".

[cx]

Tileprof:

Dumpy level (transit) is quite easy in a one-dummy operation once you get used to it. Requires more walking back and forth than a laser, but that's cheaper than a membership in the local yuppie gym anyway. I've been doing it for years.

And water level is indeed oldest method and still good. You guys don't ever tile swimming pools? Water level is still the only level I've ever seen used there, because their work is going to be checked by the customer with what? A BIG water level.

One of my best customers checked his whole house with one of them BIG water levels a few years ago, but that's another story. Marked a nice line all the way through the place at about 3 feet, (5 in the sunken living room - gives new meaning to that term) but he still doesn't recommend it to his friends.

[Bud Cline]

Swimming Pool? "What's that"?

[tileprof]

art ...idiot stick...anybody that puts a bucket of mud on my water level must be " smart like stick"!!

bud isn't that a big hole filled with water or maybe cx's water level!!!

cx we don't have all day while you walk back and forth to check elevations!

[Bud Cline]

Not many swimming pools in this part of the country. Around here a big hole filled with water is either a stock tank a reuse pit or a pot hole. Usually a pot hole.

We do have a community pool that was built in 1945, hell I was built after that. This one doesn't have any tile. It is said to expel 14000 gallons of water a week (via cracks) when it is filled, but because it dumps 14000 gallons a week it is never filled, so what's the problem? A new one will cost about four million. Ha.

[Sonnie Layne]

Bud, You don't know what you're missing. Get out the Bondo, man!!!

[John Bridge]

I know I sort of instituted this monster, but it IS hard to keep up with. I've done the laser thing in open rooms -- big rooms. I've done the transit thing too (used to own a David White). But the best thing, as far as I'm concerned is the piece of hose (without the resevior). In fact, that's what I'll be employing when I start the new "castle" on Tuesday.

One more time. Are there any out of work mud men out there?

[tileprof]

are you paying the perdium john?

[John Bridge]

No per diem! Man, you're about 2,500 miles away from me. That would certainly be pushing the limits of the "grey zone."

I'll put you up out at my ranch, though. It's not far from here. It's right at the foot of Mt. Houston, in fact. Very scenic country.

[flatfloor]

The ghost of Rube Goldberg is in this thread somewhere.

[Bud Cline]

http://www.toonopedia.com/goldberg.jpg

A self portrait (date unknown)

Rube Goldberg
Born: 7-04-1883
Died: 1970

[flatfloor]

Nice Bud, I'll bet some of you didn't believe me.

[Bud Cline]

Notice the signature in the lower right corner.