Suing Home Depot

[Theoderik]

This was brought up in another thread but I thought it would be more appropriate here and in its own thread. So . . .

When will someone sue Home Depot for giving crappy advice (ie: "here, use this mastic and pre-mixed grout in your shower. It will last forever. Oh, yeah - put it on sheetrock. That will be just fine. Liner? You don't need no stinkin' liner - here, just use this tar paper. You can tile directly to that. Oh, and if you run out of mastic, here is some drywall mud. That will hold those wall tiles to your floor just fine. No, I promise. You'll be juuuuuuusst fine.")

So, when someone spends $1000.00 and 3 months on a shower that they then find out was done wrong - how much liability do you think these big box stores have??

Figure someone sues them a few times, they will either make SURE their guys are trained a bit better or stop giving advice.

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[Hamilton]

yeah sooner or later someone will find a case. All the scribble in the
disclaimers is enough to get off the hook with most homeowners/DIY's
It may take a pro to actually find a lawyer to do a sting of sorts, but
that would just be evil......but then it might be righteous to bring down
a monster.

[Chris the Rep]

. . .When will someone sue Home Depot for giving crappy advice (ie: "here, use this mastic and pre-mixed grout in your shower.
It probably has happened more than we hear about, but I would venture it is very rare. Usually when DIY projects fail, it is because we think we did something wrong. (and they know that) For those rare instances that do end up in litigation, I'd bet (insert name of store) prevails in the biggest percentage of the cases. And those where they don't prevail are probably bought off for a token sum, mainly material costs, or even cheaper for them; replacement material. And I would give you odds that the retailer dumps almost all of those back on the product manufacturer. In addition, DIY labor, for the most part is considered negligible when it comes to putting a dollar figure to it in front of the judge. (If it gets that far) The hours encompassing three months of dawn to dusk (and later) weekends that the homeowner put into that bathroom remodel will never be repaid in a sum equal to what a professional tile setter could claim for an equal number of hours.

But you can't just point the finger at the big box retailer, do you have a platter in mind on which to place the head of the product manufacturers? If they claim that the product is suitable for a particular use, don't they carry part of the blame? Trouble is, most of the products will do what they say they will do, albiet some only performing to a bare minimum standard. Note I said "bare minimum standard" Mastic won't work in a shower? The lawyers for Dewey, Stikem, and Goode Mastic company can stand up in court and says "Sure it will. Probably 80% of the hotels in this country that have ceramic tile showers were set with mastic." "If the product were so bad, why is it close to a 100 million dollar per year business in the USA?" That 100 million number is a fact, BTW. Always follow the money...Ah, the money. Retailers look at "dollars sales per square foot" in their stores. Considering the space required, the freight/handling/muscle cost, the high damage rate of bags, the mess on the floor, there is considerably more profit for the store in a can of that mastic than there is in a bag of thin-set. And probably twice as much for the manufacturer.

... It will last forever. Oh, yeah - put it on sheetrock. That will be just fine. Liner? You don't need no stinkin' liner - here, just use this tar paper. You can tile directly to that. Oh, and if you run out of mastic, here is some drywall mud. That will hold those wall tiles to your floor just fine. No, I promise. You'll be juuuuuuusst fine.")
Yes, I'm sure it happens, hell, you and I and everyone here know it happens. But they are only offering advice, likely based what is printed on a package. To paraphrase a regular here, their advice is "Worth the price charged". Caveat Emptor has to come into play somewhere in this equation. The person working at the local fast food place (for roughly the same pay, mind you) well, they've cooked the burger, they've wrapped the burger, they have tasted the burger, and they've heard others say the burger is very good. That still doesn't make them a chef.

Remember the line Walt Kelly wrote for Pogo..."We have met the enemy and he is us" These places succeed because we consumers are suckers for the most part. They know just how to appeal to that aspect of our nature . We want it to be easy, painless and cheap, and we want it NOW. We want a simple solution, a quick fix, and they offer it to us. Is it the best solution, is it the best way, is it the right product? We don't want to do any homework, we want to have someone else tell us it is right. And the funny thing about it is, we're creatures of habit, we do it over and over and over again.

... So, when someone spends $1000.00 and 3 months on a shower that they then find out was done wrong...
Some people do it for the satisfaction and enjoyment, but let's face it, a lot of them do it because they felt they were getting screwed when a true pro quoted them $7000 and completion in 5 days and expected to collect the check upon completion. So, they decide to go shopping, see the prices on material only and say "hell, for 6K savings and a couple of weekends, I can do it myself and save all of that money" Some of them come here, read past posts, ask questions, as well as do other research. Some are fortunate enough to find some one in those stores who really knows what they're talking about. (There are some out there) Some get lucky and do everything bass ackwards and against every convention and accepted practice and never have a problem. The rest, well, we read their posts here, feel sypathetic, and try to offer salvage guidance.
Figure someone sues them a few times, they will either make SURE their guys are trained a bit better or stop giving advice.
Might happen, and I might win the lottery tonight too. The very nature of the big box retailer does not lend itself to lots of advice or personalized service. It about those dollars per square foot, with the lowest cost per square foot. That biggest "cost" is the employee, and it is a variable cost at that.
"Sally really kicked up tile sales in the three months she was in the tile department. Let's transfer her over to windows and doors and see what she can do over there." "We've got a forklift driver who unloads plywood who wants to try working on the sales floor, we'll put him in tile and bump him up to 8.00 per hour to replace Sally" "You know, if Sally does as well in her new department, she just may be the person we want to become the assistant manager of the new store being built over in West Wingnut next year." Sally moves customers through the checkout line, thats what they want. And if Sally moves a lot of customers through quickly, with a lot of high margin products in their carts, that makes Sally an even better employee.

I think I remember the thread you mentioned at the beginning of your post. If it was the same one I am thinking of, I was kind of disgusted with the whole thing. That person noted every detail and problem and had blame for everyone. But when it came down to the proverbial nutcutting, they went cheap and hired the cheapest labor they could find and then wondered why they had all of the problems. I never recall seeing another post regaling us with how they triumphed in court.

Sorry to be so long winded, but sometimes you gotta be the devils advocate.

Chris

[Theoderik]

Chris, I truly love you. I get such enjoyment when you step in and post. Thanks. You're the best!

And, I agree with what you've said and can see it in it's entirety. I think we would cause pause if more poeople walked in looking for product and advice and they were holding a clipboard. As Sally starts to spill advice, we right it down with a time, date and ask her again if Sally is spelled with a "y" or an "i" and if she has an employee number to reference to.

Yes, we shoot ourselves in the foot. And, I can't harbor harsh feeligns to the employees that sincerely TRY It's the ones that don't have the balls to simply say, "you know, I'm really not sure." At the very least, "here's a book or why not go to the library or Barnes & Nobel and pick up something that will get you started on the right path or, better yet - google around and see what you find."

I do think you'd stand a chance if you had all info documented and the project failed miserably for obvious reason of bad advice given. I think HD would settle out of court just to be done with you. Yes, for them, your asking price of $2000 is PENNIES compared to what it would cost them to actually LOOK at your suit and talk to their lawyer about it.

HOWEVER, if someone had the foresight to log every step and all the advice from every employee and their name, then I think they would have the foresight to realize that the advice they are being handed would need to be scrutinized.

Thanks.

P.S. - devil advocate me any day. I enjoy it. And again, I enjoy your posts.

[kdzgon]

Don't forget that the big box stores simply carry supplies for homeowners to imitate the many DIY shows on TV (most sponsored by the very same big box stores). You know the shows I mean - ones that show such "unique" fixes as using newspaper to level a floor before installing tile (I kid you not!).

Besides, that shiny (usually inferior) new tile hides lots of ills for a while. A new wall doesn't always fall down overnight.

[Rd Tile]

Don't put all the blame on the stores, just read the labels on some of the tile products that are sold there and other places as well, pre-mixed thinset that says it can be used for floor and walls, made by major thinset suppliers, we know who they are, won't start naming them all. :shake:

[flatfloor]

Mapei type 1 says it's up to the user to determine suitability for a particular application.

[MHI]

Mapei also markets a product that is call "Pre-mixed thinset". It is stated on the label that it is just as good as thinset, only better, Its pre-mixed.:D

[RLeVan]

Oddly enough, I have a bucket of the Mapei pre-mixed thinset and nowhere on the label does it say it's as good as thinset, only better. It does say that it's a light duty alternative to traditional dry mix thinset and should only be used in areas of intermittent moisture (i.e. backsplashes, shower walls).

I wouldn't agree with avoiding the shower wall part though to err on the safe side. However, I did use it between my CBU and plywood floor for the rest of the bathroom outside of the shower and had no problems.

It's too bad dry mix doesn't come in a plastic bucket with a "add water line". Yeah, the cost would be a little more, but less waste and easier for a DIY'er.

[Levi the Tile Guy]

I just hired a new helper that is actually pretty skilled in construction (with the exception of tile but he has common sence). His wife just tiled their tub souround about 7 months ago with items purchased from lowes. Any way they told them they were buying pre-mixed grout which I've never heard of, but they were also told that they could set the tile with it, and use it for grout.
I'm assuming it was pre-mixed thinset.
That is exactly what they did. The tile is still on the wall. 4 1/4's. They used an 1/8 spacer and just left the thinset their and filled in the holes.
She was completely happy with it, but now that they have grey and white splotches and uneven spots, and he knows what it should look like he is dissapointed, and redoing the whole thing next weekend.

The sales person probably didn't know he was giving ill advice. Which is it's own intity.
But ignorance on part of the home-owner would never hold up in court. Like said in earlier posts. If you read the label on the product it will tell you what the product is suited for. The big stores don't claim that their sales team are professional installers. It is up to the customer to make the call on whether they have been given good advice, and the ones who think they can save themselves 1000 bucks by doing it themselves and having just as nice of a job as a pro, don't have any room to complain. :blah: I'm just rambling now and probly don't make any sence so I'll quit

[pitterpat]

I just hired a new helper that is actually pretty skilled in construction (with the exception of tile but he has common sence). His wife just tiled their tub souround about 7 months ago with items purchased from lowes. Any way they told them they were buying pre-mixed grout which I've never heard of, but they were also told that they could set the tile with it, and use it for grout.
I'm assuming it was pre-mixed thinset.


Yo Levi, that stuff does exist, it's made by Mapei! I bought and used some of it to grout some tile I had to stick back on at the base of a floor. The tile was behind the toilet and was going to be covered by vinyl base molding. I used Mapei's Type one mastic to stick the tile back on and used the premixed grout to grout the tiles.

so there is a use for it, just not one that will show, or will get any abuse: Behind the toilet, near the floor, that will covered mostly with base molding. :tup2:

[MHI]

Oddly enough, I have a bucket of the Mapei pre-mixed thinset and nowhere on the label does it say it's as good as thinset, only better.

I was being sarcastic about how Mapei misleads unsuspecting DIY'rs. Thats why I put a :D after it.

However, I did use it between my CBU and plywood floor for the rest of the bathroom outside of the shower and had no problems.

Where on the label did it say its ok for that?

[pitterpat]

Where on the label did it say its ok for that?

It don't. they probably used it so they would not have to mix it up.

[RLeVan]

Sorry Matt, I misinterpreted your smiley usage. :)

As far as it saying if I can use it between CBU and plywood, indirectly it does. I don't plan on turning my bathroom floor into a bathtub, and if that happens I have more to worry about than using premixed thinset. Therefore, an alternative to thinset that is only to be used in areas exposed to no or intermittent moisture is exactly what a floor is.

The only reason I used it was I had purchased it and it was too late to return it. It does say under recommended substrates : Fully Cured Concrete, Masonry block, Cement mortars and leveling coats, CBU, Gypsum board, APA or COFI Group 1 exterior grade plywood (interior residential floors and countertops in dry areas).

-since I was using it between CBU and approved plywood, I figured it would be alright. I used bagged thinset between the tile and the CBU.

However the following is not recommended: presswood, particle board, masonite, chipboard, Lauan, gypsum floor patching compound, metal or similar dimensionally unstable material.

I didn't mean to call you out Matt and I apologize if you took it that way. Drinks are on me. :)

[cfast]

The 18 year old helper i recently fired told me one day that his buddy could get him a job at HD. He said that his buddy told him, "Its easy, you just bull.... your way through it!!". (flooring dept) LOL!!!! I think thats where hes working now. he worked with me for ten days and worked for a granite guy polishing for about a month now hes a HD flooring pro. Ha ha

[Theoderik]

well, that 40 days is probably more hands on time then anyone else there so, in MY book - I'd ask him first before anyone else at that store. :)

[DonB]

I think it would be very hard to win a bad advice case but I sure would like to see the one place be required to change there motto to "You just do it, we can't help." Their implication that you can actually get good advice there is criminal... or should be anyway.

Don

[jdm]

Here's the stuff from Mapei. The pic is a bit small, but it is called Premixed Adhesive and Grout. I find it very interesting that both this product and Mapei's Premixed Thinset Mortar cannot be found on their website.

[fosters351]

that stuff and mastic is why I'm retiling my bathroom. The tile setter i hired a year ago used that same product for grout and laticrete mastic for my shower walls. After 8 months the grout started to fall out and was soft as hell. The mastic held up well though. I ripped to all out anyway. These products should not be on the market. Not only because of they mislead DIYers but alot of hack contractors who don't have any idea what their doing use whatever they get there hands on for installations and by the time somethings fails their long gone. ray

[jdm]

The worst offenders to me are the manufacturers that name products to confuse customers. The worst are the premixed thinsets. Mapei even labels thiers premixed thinset mortar. Then even someone who has done their homework can be duped into buying the wrong material.

They should call the stuff mastic, or tile adhesive (Custom does) or even KeraPookie.

[Levi the Tile Guy]

I can't believe a hack would use these products just because of the price alone. I'm assuming they cost quite a bit more than real thin-set, or grout.

[jdm]

I make of point of noticing the setting material when a cart full of tile goes by at one of the big boxes, and plenty of premixed thinset and mastic is sold.

BTW, on lowes.com, a 3.5 gal bucket of Mapei Premixed Thinset is $33.08.

[Levi the Tile Guy]

Those dang stores and their prices crack me up anyway.
for instance at Lowes UltraFlex 2 50# $19.96 (white)
at my Dal UltraFlex 2 50# $13.99 ll

At HD VersaBond White 50# $16.99
At Capco ll $12.78


At Lowes and HD sheet of 1/2" hardibacker $9.95 by sheet
At Dal and Glen's flooring $11.97
At lowes per sheet if pallet bought $9.08
At Glen's $10.05

[fosters351]

Those products do cost a bit more but the since the hacks labor cost is much cheaper than a real pro they can use the stuff and still have an estimate come in way under a pros. Think about this. They don't have to bother with mixing anything. They can build up low areas while tiling and it won't slide, push out or sink like thinset so there is no cost of making the walls or floors flat during prep because they don't do it. When there done there is no wasted adhesive or cleaning of pails. You just put the top back on the container and throw it in the truck. Just my opinion. ray