Wood Front door refinish advice

[FactorXII]

I have this front door made from mahogany(?) and it has wood carving overlaying the glass. It needs refinished. The weather has peeled the varnish and stain on outside. What is the best way to prep this door for new stain and clearcoat?
Any advice thanks in advance.

Mick

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[Bud Cline]

Stripper?

[tileguytodd]

Wire Brush?
Sonny should be here :D

[bbcamp]

How bad's the wood? How are you gonna refinish?


Bob

[cx]

Good lord, Bud, can't you let the guy get one serious response before you change the subject?

He didn't axe about what jumps out of the big bagel in Dallas, he axe how to refinish his door.

CAMI! Can't you do something about Bud? :D


Sorry about that, Mick. Don't pay no attention to these distractions.

If you're serious about a good refinish, first thing I would want to know is whether the glass is readily removable. Is it a large lite with a wood overlay, or individual lites set into the carved part?

You got pichers? :)

[Sonnie Layne]

Hi Mick,

believe me, we're not all nuts on this site. :)

You don't want a 'clear-coat' on your entry door. Won't work, I don't care what HD Expo tells ya'.

You want an oil finish, tung oil is great, but not the kind that's mixed with urethanes. Only other choice really is Spar Varnish, which darkens so quickly and radically that it's lost it's importance in that field.

I'd strip it, oil it (prob'ly around between 4 coats and 5000 coats depending on how many arm wrestling championships you've aquired in the past year or so). Really, the stripping will be the most difficult. Sorry, I don't see another way of doing it. Ain't no such thing as UV resistant Polyurethane no matter how straight the face of the liar that says so. Just not possible chemistry wise.

They can call me, I'll stand there right behind you :)

painter, poet, cheese-sniffer,
Sonnie

[Bud Cline]

See I was right again....Sonnie likes strippers too!!!

[Ron Teti]

I was talking to a guy the other day who told me he used about 3-4 coats of flecto varathane. He said its been about 3 years now and its holding up good. He lives about 3 mile from the ocean and the door faces the ocean. To prep I would strip (easy guys) sand, to about 180-220 then use a sealer then finish unless your gonna add stain then stain before the sealer.

[kdzgon]

Originally posted by Sonnie Layne
...painter, poet, cheese-sniffer,...

chemist, :)

[FactorXII]

Thanks for suggestions. So far I have gone over it with steel wool to remove the flakes of varnish. That was upon advice from Homeless Despot people. Next I plan to use this stuff called TSP Substitute which is used to kill mold and so forth. I will take some pictures but I don't have digital camera so it will take awhile to post.


Mick

[Sonnie Layne]

Mick,

That won't work. You have to get down to raw wood fibers (ain't gonna get into the cellular schematics here) for them to absorb the oil, which will result in a contraction of the interstitial spaces, given that it's a properly cured wood, which it is at this point. Anyway, likelihood is that the door was shot with a couple coats of urethane varnish, which is still a varnish, which ain't gonna be UV resistant I dont' care what shape the salesman's face is in.

Only after you get the crap off the top of the wood (the urethane won't penetrate deeply), can you then finish with the tung/walnut/mineral oils (or a mixture of these with appropriate colo(u)rants. Stay away from the Danish oils, it's a mix of tung and polyurethane. Rub the door down with one of the solid oils I mentioned. Sun ain't gonna bake that stuff off, and as an extra benefit,,, it's repairable, just scuff it, rub it lightly with oil and your're good as new.

Sonnie
don't worry, the painter will fix it

[FactorXII]

Some clown painter who said he would refinish the door for $300.00 minimum said if I decide to do it myself not to use oil under any circumstances. I trust the BB more than him.

Mick

[Sonnie Layne]

Well, don't use Old English Lemon Oil... so I guess he's saved his own skin.

Don't use "Danish Oil" which is a combination of urethane and teak oil.

Just use tung oil. As many coats as you have patience for. Walnut oil is good, but not necessary.

Then, you just have to scuff the surface once every 1-10 years and rub some more tung on it and you're good to go.

If it doesn't seem to work, call me and I'll make it right for you. First, tho', you must remove all the existing urethane finish. This can be done by sanding. Chemical stripping by your option. Main thing is to open the grains of the wood to the oils you're going to apply. The oils have to get into the cells of the wood.

You can call me 5 years from now if that fails.

[kdzgon]

Sonnie,

If you finish an exterior door this way, you mean it'll hold up to weather, or only if protected by a large porch/overhang, etc?

Laurie

[Sonnie Layne]

Yes, it's UV protected or resistant. I've got one door that's 8 years, a couple that are 5. Others that are protected by a covered porch. I was recently by one of the five year doors. Client said he'd touched it up a couple of times, but that's just a matter of light sanding and a couple of swipes with an oiled rag. That's the big thing I like about it, it's easily repaired/touched-up by the homeowner.

I used to use it on my boat.

[FactorXII]

Yes Sonnie but if the door is bleached from the sun will the tung oil deepen the color ? The inside of the door is not weather exposed(of course) and has a deep red color. I presume the outside had the same stain used. I don't know the history of this door ,it was here when I moved in. All I know it was purchased at an estate sale by the previous owner.
My second question is can I use tung oil and then stain it if it doesn't get darker?

Mick

[Sonnie Layne]

Yes, the oil will darken. Depending on the brand how much. As a rule, wet your finger, apply moisture to the raw wood, that will give you an indication of how a clear finish will appear. Tung/Teak Oil is not that clear, so the best way to see is in an incospicous place. Don't worry over the place 'cause any place can be fixed and finished eventually. Answer is the colour of the oil will deepen the colour of the wood to lesser or more degree, bringing out all its original differences in colour, but not texture.

Do the water/spit test, but....

if you want a darker finish than the tung/teak will give you, yes, you can add your choice of oil stains or universal colourants, or alkyd/oil paints.

If you want it lighter, then thin the 'stain' with appropriate thinners and if necessary, deal with it with lighter coloured universals.

I'll be glad to help you through the details of this. There are probably other paint guys on this forum that could contribute.

I'm sure they'll have questions as well, most of which I've missed.

[FactorXII]

Thanks for the door advice. I did not see Tung oil at Lowe's or HD. Where does one buy this stuff? I have printed out this thread. I don't have time right now to do this door. But want to get info in advance so I can bang the job out when I do have time. I will try to get some pics posted when I get this project underway. Pics really help with putting it all together.

Mick

[Sonnie Layne]

Mick,

I've bought Tung Oil at HD before. Theirs I think is Minwax, which isn't my favorite. I'm sure Lowe's has it as well, but finding someone who knows what it is may be a problem. Carry off to a paint store. Even Ace hardware has it packaged with their label on it. At least at the paint store, they'll know what you're talking about. I believe Deft makes one, they also make danish oil (which I've previously advised against).

Now, seems this has been happening lately that I don't get a current post until after I've posted a previous answer. So...to answer your Q about red and all that. Stain it first with an oil stain, get the colour you want less 1 shade. The tung oil will make up the rest. You can tint the tung oil as well, but I'm not certain what would happen to it's light-fastness. If you get a red pigment, make sure it's lightfast and not an interior colourant. Again, your paint store can answer. I'd try Benjamin Moore, then Kelly Moore. Thing to do is shop where the painters in your area shop. The advice there will be great. I'll see what I can find out, seems to me that bulletin red is an exterior tint. There again, I don't know what red you're looking for, is it transparent or opaque? Gotta picture? and...does the outside of the door need to match the inside?

my best

[FactorXII]

Sonnie,
No I don't have a picture. The stain I would like should match the inside stain. I saw Minwax at Lowe's but nothing resembling Tung oil. I will keep looking.


Mick

[Sonnie Layne]

http://www.minwax.com/produse/clear/pucfto1.htm

Don't know why they say interior only, other brands don't make that distinction.

[FactorXII]

Sonnie,
I read on the Minwax bulletin board that Tung oil on exterior door has poor durability. One person wrote they did the Tung oil on their door exterior and now the door expands and contracts so much it's difficult to close.
Someone else wrote that Helmsmen is best for exterior wood.
Amazing how complicated this stuff gets, isn't it?

Mick

[Sonnie Layne]

Helmsman is a spar varnish. It'll work, but it's a surface finish. It also darkens considerably with a few years of service. Many companies offer it. It's UV resistant, but it also turns very dark in the UV, and it still involves refinishishing every year or so. The refinishing, if necessary with oils, is much easier. Wipe it on, wipe it off.

Give the guy/gal my web address.

You do the right thing, which in this case is the easy thing.

http://www.waterlox.com/what.htm

surface finishes won't aint' and ain't gonna work.
Go with my intsincts and knowledge on this,... by the way, I would have charged you much more than $300,,,:)

[Ron Teti]

When I have a finishing question I usually go to either the fine homebuilding forum or fine woodworking or Jeff jewitts site @ http://www.homesteadfinishing.com

I hope I dont offend anyone here just a suggestion.

[John Bridge]

Ron,

We don't mind links to other sites. In fact, we encourage it. We know we don't have all the answers. ;)

[Ron Teti]

I just got back from the Homesteadfinishing site and looked at some of there finishes. He has a a couple of brands of sprayable spar varnish and some other coatings made for extrior use.
Thanks John but Im still new here so I feel I have to tred lightly until I get to know you guys. Thats all just respecting ya bro...:)

[bbcamp]

I'm wondering if Mick's door isn't a candidate for a faux finish. That would give the door some pigment and UV protection.

If not that, how 'bout a solid paint color which would be close to the dominant color of the interior wood.

[Sonnie Layne]

Well, if we gotta digress in the direction of surface finishes and opacity is not allowed, I would vote to tint the spar varnish, but the colour's still gonna shift, so you'd have to allow for that in the tinting process.

If tung is a problem, then shift to teak oil. Longevity isn't an issue if all you have to do is wipe some more on. It's a bigger deal if you have to scrape, sand and reapply varnish.

[kdzgon]

Originally posted by bbcamp
...If not that, how 'bout a solid paint color which would be close to the dominant color of the interior wood.

Maybe because it's a quality mahogany door and apparently an antique as well.....what's the matter, don't they have mahogany or even real wood doors in Tennessee? Or did your moose herd pass through once too often? geez.. Now I understand why you see giraffes there....

Laurie (shakin' her head at the Tennessee tourguide....)
:D

[bbcamp]

I thought that the snooty yankees herein (present company excepted, of course) would find the very act of painting a mahogany door offensive. Howsomeever, considering how long they have been discussing it, and the fact that winter will be here afore you know it, I thought it was high time they conclude their dithering and slap a coat of paint on the thing and be done with it. :) (Not that I would be sooo crude as to say that out loud.)

And of course we have doors. We have them on our houses, barns, and outhouses. And if they are so fancy-dancy that we're afeered of paintin' 'em, we protect 'em with aluminum and glass storm doors.

And we don't got moosies, we got elks!


And giraffes are figments of your imagination. They're not there, never were.

http://teacherweb.com/images/giraffe.gif



geez. . .

[kdzgon]

Bob,

Why aren't you studying your geography? Maybe you can add biology lessons, too - help you learn to identify your figments properly...
:D :D :D

[bbcamp]

Laurie,


http://www.plaudersmilies.de/tiere/elkgrin.gif



Bob

[Sonnie Layne]

ain't never seen no opaque finish that looked like mahogany, but there again mahogany doesn't look like what everyone thinks it does (exceptions made for you woodworkers). I mean names like mahogany, cherry, red oak apply mainly to stains that have nothing to do with anything, right? If you want the look of mahogany, build with mahogany and oil it, or lacquer it.

Well, hmmm I guess for the film camera, I've done some faux stuff, but that's all in the movies, as Merle said, wouldn't find much practical use. Ever seen Tin Cups? That eloquent bar scene is painted on masonite.

Heck, sorry,... been paintin' all day and ya just got me started, what were we... oh giraffes. uhhh, I saw one down on Travis Ave a few weeks ago, but listening to the radio the next day, I heard no reference. Maybe I was somewhere else. Always am ;)

[Hobbit]

Hell, I'm lost.

I've gone to look for myself. If I should return before I get back, please ask me to wait.:eek:

[Sonnie Layne]

I like that quote, remind me of who Ruskin was, familiar name???

[Hobbit]

Nineteenth century British I believe. Don't have a lot of info on him. Amazing thinker. Interesting postulates. Incidentally the quote has been abbreviated somewhat. The first couple of lines are missing.

Something like "It is unwise to pay too much....but worse to pay too little.....for the thing you have bought is incapable of doing the job...."

I guess I could look it up...???:o

[John Bridge]

Just don't get one Brit mixed up with the other. You might run into Keynes. ;)

[Hobbit]

Always a possibility!!:D

Actually, there was a lot of interesting stuff happening about that time in Britain. Lots of food for the thinkers!!;)

[Sonnie Layne]

but not for anyone else I think.

who wrote of them? That's not a sarcastic question, but simply one from the truly curious. Surely there were a few?

[Hobbit]

Interesting question Sonnie.:)

This was post Renaissance era in Britain, known as the "Age of Victoria." Also known as the "Age of Reason," the Industrial Revolution was in full swing. In the 1830's Farraday "discovered" electrical power and by the 1870's electricity was in constant production. By the late 1800's the first electric streetcar was in use in Europe (France or Italy I think). In the early 1800's Britain's agriculturalists "discover" nitrogen fixing in plants (legumes) and four course crop rotation was born. Textile manufacture becomes a major industry with powered equipment, and steam engines are refined and become useful.

In 1851 (I think), Cambridge University becomes the home of the Cambridge Ghost Society dedicated to the study of the unknown and supernatural. In 1859 Charles Darwin published the Origin of Species, leading evolutionary theory forward. Denounced as an attack on the church, it faced heavy criticism but survived and formed the nucleus around which the famous "Scopes Monkey Trials" later happened. Socialism exploded in popularity behind the teachings of Karl Marx and Frederick Engels.

In all of this, Britain led the way, arriving here in America years later.

Among all of this John Ruskin lived. I still don't know a lot about him. I do know that he was not alone. Writing of and about this time were also Lewis Carrol, Oscar Wilde, George Eliot, H.G. Wells, Bernard Shaw, Emerson, Tennyson, etc. etc. Their individual philosophies differ somewhat, but all were products of this same era. Many modern philosophical studies and biographies exist that examine this amazing time in history.:)

:):)

[Sonnie Layne]

Thank you, Howard. Fantastic insight and wonderfully full attention to appropriate detail.

You must truly be a Hobitt.

It's now gonna be my issue to further open the pages of the imaginative (tho' not imaginary) images you've inspired. What a dream this will be. What has interested you to include these facts into your seemingly normal line of speach and thought? A love of philosophy, writing? Amazing.

Do you need a painter/cook? :)

[Hobbit]

Thanks for the kind words!!:)

I love the study of history. As previously mentioned, I freelanced as a writer and photographer for several years. It's a tough existence!:)

The period loosely represented by the 19th century was an amazing time, on the Continent and here as well. There is almost no end to the philosophers, writers, poets,... that contributed volumes to the knowledge base that we use today. I wish I had the capacity for that kind of thought. Alas..I'm not equipped.:)

I dabble in cooking too....at least that's what my wife calls it (dabbling). Don't have the time to take it seriously!! But love those herbs.!!!!! You obviously are far more advanced than I. Would love to taste some of your cuisine........maybe some day!!:):)

[Sonnie Layne]

My culinary advances are made now like my musical advances were 30 years ago...on a daily experimental basis. More information is readily available now, so music (tho' sadly only in my mind) and cooking advance at any pace I want. No, I'm no chef, but if I wanted to do that, I could. Too much work, thanks anyway.

And yes, maybe we'll get to swap lies some day on an autumn evening.

S