When the tile work warranty really, truly can't be honored

[Andrea345]

Hello,
I found these forums while researching at another forum. I hope you don't mind if I post the same question here as I have there.

Our tile guy died on us. No, not simply died, but committed suicide 9 months after our project was complete. That was really disturbing. Moreso because we were very impressed with his work and his artistry. I think I've finally just gotten used to the idea that I can't call him over for a new project, or to brainstorm with him on design ideas.

However, we've had a failure in one of our bathrooms. Both bathrooms were "mud" jobs. That is, no backerboard, but a build up of concrete to which the tiles were adhered. This was done the "old-fashioned" way. The wainscotting, shower pans & floors were all built-up concrete with the tiles laid on top.

Now, one of the walls has cracked tiles all the way up from where the showerpan surround (tiled) meets the wall to midway up the wall. Luckily, none of the hand-glazed deco tiles were cracked. Something shifted and I need to get this repaired. I think there's a concrete problem. I don't know, but since the crack is pretty straight through all the tiles, that's why I think so.

Does anyone know about the work which would be involved in this kind of repair? The cracked tiles are out of the direct path of the water from the shower, but it needs to be fixed. We've lived with it for a little over a year and there hasn't been any more cracking. Maybe it's a seam between concrete batches, I have no idea.

I want to understand more about what might be the cause of the failure and what it would take to repair before I begin interviewing tile contractors for the repair. This is not a project where I want to walk in from work one day & find some fast-talker has dismantled my bathroom. I'm gonna need to be able to tell an expert from a fly-by-nighter. References / licensing / bonding & insurance will not be good enough. The deco tiles can't be reproduced. The subway tiles, at least I've got spare of those, but I doubt they'd be able to be matched b/c of variations in glaze lots. I have to be able to tell whether or not the person I'm interviewing is feeding me a line of bull or knows what they're talking about. I'd also like to know what kind of costs I could expect to see.

Thank you for any information you might have about what I should know or how I should interview future "Tile Guys". It's my ignorance which has kept me from getting this work done. Time to take care of step #1.

I've included three pictures which show the crack going up the wall. I had to distort the contrast to get it to show as much as I could.

This first picture is the beginning of the crack, where the shower pan surround meets the wall. Picture two is the next two feet up. The third is the last foot or so of the crack. The wainscotting ends at 4'.



Thanks,
-a

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[Davestone]

Someone may want to move the thread eventually,but i'll chime in with a few questions to start things off.Is the bathroom wall that cracked at ground level, on a concrete slab?On a wood subfloor/ On an exterior wall,if so,is it frame, or block?Any other cracks in floor,or footing,or structure that you know of?It may help to tear out the wall behind it to see behind the tile, is this an option?As far as identifying a GOOD tile man,i can only say ask a trusted friend about a good tile man, then ask the good tile man who he thinks is the best tile man in town. :D

[cx]

Welcome, Andrea. :)

We don't mind not being your only source of information, we'll just try to be the best. :shades:

What Davestone done axed/said.

I would also be helpful if you would stand back and take us a photo that shows a perspective of what we're lookin' at there. We like pichers. :D

My opinion; worth price charged.

[Andrea345]

Davestone, cx,
Thanks for the questions. If I've posted to the wrong forum, I apologize. I couldn't really decide between the Advice board and this one, but since this was maintaining an existing installation, I jumped. I used to moderate on a poetry board and we were very concerned with posting to the right forum. I'm sorry. I read what each forum was about, but I must have screwed up. If a moderator will move me to the appropriate forum, I'd appreciate it.

I came by this forum via Bill Vincent's website after he was recommended at That Home Site in a reply to my post. It was like hitting a jackpot of information. Now I think I'll maybe tile that old brick fireplace of mine - after I find a new Tile Guy. I'd been talking to my old Tile Guy about Italian terrazzo for the hearth. I brought him some literature from a terrazzo yard in Vicenza, Italy. The guy there did designs in that were mind-boggling. He had shells, lapis, malachite, all sorts of stones & bits in piles all over the yard for the colors. Tony loved terrazzo, but there was no one here we could work with to do it in the traditional style.

No, really, to answer your questions:
The wall is not at ground level, it's probably about 4-5' above ground. It is an interior wall. However, the wall at right angles to it is the exterior wall. No concrete slab, we've got a concrete foundation and crawl space below. The sub-floor is plywood at some weird angle. There are no cracks on this room's floor or on on the floor above it, which is the 2nd bathroom. There's no cracks on the tile separating the shower pan from the rest of the room. The bathroom above this one is also mudded, but we used an 18" honed & tumbled marble. However, there are 6x6 hand-made terra-cotta decos which start the wall run, but they've not shown any evidence of cracking.

What I do remember from the installation was that for that specific wall Tony went through two drywall guys and about five layers of drywall finishing. None of them could even the wall out sufficiently to his liking until he called in The Big Guns. We'd fired the General Contractor and ended up firing his drywall company. Tony brought in someone else. There were many, many problems with that project.

Tear-out of the wall behind it is a possibility as that is dry-wall. However, since it is hand-painted in a harlequin pattern, again, I'd want my new Tile Guy to know what he was doing before he did that.

*sigh* ask a Tile Guy for the best Tile Guy in town... he's no longer around. I have to start somewhere and that's where I need to know how to tell the difference between someone blowing smoke and someone who knows what they're doing.

I've included some "stand-back" pictures. I can take some more at other angles if you need them. We're in the middle of a kitchen remodel, so dishes dry out on our shower floor (ouch!). I would have cut that out, but it's a good shot of the drain.

Thanks again for your help,
-a

[Davestone]

Well, don't worry about the posting, you're fine here.Generally this type of cracking means movement...but ,where, is the problem...it could be as easy as a gap in the metal lathe,duct,or plumbing in the wall,but i doubt it.Or the mud used to fix the drywall.Or it could be termites, or foundation cracks,or a new roof installed recently...or blasting at a nearby new construction site...but in general, it will mean tearing into the wall, and locating the problem and fixing that first, which could be extensive, and expensive.....Being at the curb, it could have something to do with the studs,or the ending of the mudjob.This may involve a carpenter or even a contractor in home remodeling...if you're ready for this.We have many here on the site.More questions...what city are you in,and how old is the house,maybe someone here is interested, or can point you to a good contractor.Is caulking the cracks and waiting till you decide, an option? :bow:

[Andrea345]

The cracks aren't travelling. They did it that once & then nothing's changed. No wider, no longer. I'm in Seattle, specifically in West Seattle. The house was built in 1952. I'm not too worried about the cracks as much as I am trying to find the right contractor. With as many variables as you've mentioned and I've imagined, I don't want to screw that choice up. Yes, I'm interested in names of contractors.

I won't be able to start any "big" projects for a couple of months. We're trying to finish the kitchen before the holiday season when we've got guests arriving. We do, however, have a small fireplace job we're interested in "testing the waters" with. As far as "contractors", etc., since we fired our last general, we went with a design / build firm but that's about it. I don't think they do home repair, so if future Tile Guy had any recommendations, we'd be open.

Thanks,
-a

[Steven Hauser]

Hi Andrea,

Guess what? I've got tiles like that in a shower of mine as well. :fim: I'm gonna catch grief for this but I haven't fixed them yet because I know the water proofing is good behind them and frankly I'm not ready to address it yet. :dunce:

My crack doesn't go up and down it goes side to side. This makes me think I have a little movement and some bad tiles. I've got two bathrooms with it in it.

Eventually I'm going to have to tear them out and redo them.
Probably right before I sell the house. :D

[Andrea345]

Ha! You know what. That's exactly what my husband says. Is this a conspiracy? Have you been talking to him? He says, "They're not even in the path of the water, they're just annoying you." uh, he's right then. It ain't purty when your husband gets to do the "I told you so" dance.

[Steven Hauser]

Naw, Boys are boys though. I don't do it 'cause my wife would make the repair become a marble shower installation with a heating system and water jets. That's really really expensive and my house would be in disarray for a while because the marble would be the wrong color and the contracotr didn't listen to teh instructions given. Plus if I don't perform to expectations she'll fire me and hire my main competitor to teach me a lesson. How do i know this? Guess what I did 5 years ago to this house?
:o
Tough spot for a guy who specializes in renovations and owns a tile and granite counter top business eh? :D :rofl:

[Rhode Island Flooring]

well I would just put some duct tape over the crack and paint it white!! LOL any way I wouldnt be too concerned with how good a tile guy to the point of grilling him under a 4000 watt High pressure sodium light and offering no water, as long as he understands how to complete the project and eliminate the problem as well as not charge a million dollars, but always get a recipt with check #s on them and a written agreement stating his 1 year labor guarantee. Or at least 1 year is the law in Rhode Island.

[Andrea345]

Ha! Steve! That's why my husband dreads those times when there's no room for me to futz around in the house. We're in the middle of a kitchen remodel, my house is torn apart, so what can I do but spend my time planning to remodel the office, fix the tile in the bath, remove the mantle (did that), remove the old tile hearth (did that), tile the fireplace surround, look into digging up the front yard for a tank removal even though we finished that yard just this year.... uh. I've run out of house. Oh, that's right, there's the back yard! There's nothing to do during a remodel except plan your next one & begin it. It's just too chaotic to do anything else. :rofl:

The Horror, Rhode Island Flooring! The Horror! Blasphemy! Duct tape & paint it white! :eek: Actually, what's gotten me spooked is that I've talked to three tile guys and the minute I say "mud installation" they make the sign of the cross and offer to caulk my grout cracks, but that's it. It's like it's a a dead language. So, it's the tile guys who've scared me. Also, here in Seattle, there's been a dramatic increase in people setting themselves up as stone fabricators and tile setters. It's weird, but since the beginning of this summer, I've seen about six stone fabricators open up shops. New places. Tony's helper, the guy I watched Tony bring in and train from scratch in my bathroom got his license after Tony died. That was less than a year later. I don't know enough to know if I'm being fleeced. That's what's been so good about reading on this board. You guys have calmed me down a lot about the whole thing. I'm not tense about it any longer. I no longer have visions of the entire bathroom being dismantled, or that my bathroom wall is about to cave in. heh. Thanks!

Anyways, I'm interested in hearing from anyone on this board in Seattle. If I don't hear from anyone, I'll probably check out Angie's List. It's just good to hear that it's not rocket science and that other people have similar cracks and that my husband is right. I can stop worrying and learn about it.

-a

[doitright]

Hi Andrea :)

I'm going to copy this thread to the "Pro Forum" and see if we get any bites from some of our guys in the Seattle area.

[Steven Hauser]

Ha Andrea,

You and my wife have been talking I see.

She just talked to me today about napalming the back yard and doing a different landscaping plan.

Seems the genius we used last time was better at cashing our checks and my wife has a better plan now.

BTW the next conversation was about taking the roof off and doing another renovation. :eek:

& just 5 minutes ago she said that I need to find another closet to use 'cause she needs more room. :complain:

:D

[flatfloor]

How about Tony's helper? Sounds like he may have gotten some good training. If he was on the job he may have a clue. How old is he?

[Bugman]

. . . & just 5 minutes ago she said that I need to find another closet to use 'cause she needs more room.

OH MY!!! Now you are in trouble Steven. What mine said about 2.5 years ago was, "You know, the master bathroom would make a wonderful walk-in closet." That was the beginning of our project. http://johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=9756 Maybe by next spring I'll be done. :yeah:

[Andrea345]

Steve,
Didn't you know about the BB, "Wives Getting Together To Plot Their Next Room To Remodel?" No husbands allowed. We sit around and say, "Oh, it's been six months since I've smelled drywall dust. I can't do a thing with my hair without it. Time to demo the next room!"

My husband has refused to take the roof off since the time we added on the back & tied into the original. No gables for me in my future and I've tried at least three times. He's also stated that this third level of roofing will last our lifetimes. I pointed out to him how the gables would improve the resale value by adding height to the room. I wouldn't even ask to tile them! ha!

A closet is sooooooo reasonable. It's just a few little boards and some drywall you can hang and mud together. It's a weekend! mwhahahahaha

flatfloor - Tony's helper was the first tile guy who scared me. He's the one who'd gotten his license after Tony died, but when I asked him said he'd be able to add grout to the cracks in the grout but that was about it. And he'd been one to help Tony do the work! Thanks for the suggestion though.

bugman
Don't count on it. See. See what I'm doing? My kitchen is 3/4 done & I'm planning to demo the bathroom for a repair. I've removed my living room fireplace mantle and am looking to get that tiled, or plastered (am thinking frescoes at the moment b/c the tile I love is $98 / tile - urgh!). My house is torn apart and I'm bored. I have nothing to do except wallow in drywall dust and start another room. In for a penny, might as well be in for a dime.

Remodel train's a-coming.
Remodel train's is here.
Remodel train's a-coming.
Whoops! There you go my dear
tearing out the drywall, darling
tearing out the walls.
Remodel train's a-coming...
there goes the bathroom stall

-a

[Steven Hauser]

Andre345

Thanks for the little diddy. :D

I pulled the man trick (#152) of desperation last night, I said something that was inappropriate to the discussion and followed it up with a male chauvenistic response.

Way I look at it I bought 48 hours to formulate a new rebuttal.

:D

[Andrea345]

uh-oh
That's really, really bad karma in this day & age. Now, while my husband would never ever never-never-never never pull the #152 on me because he's just that kind of guy. But if he did, well, I'd just pull out the Ultimate Retaliation:

http://www.walkerzanger.com/wzproducts/stone/firenze/UccelloBorderL.gif

Walker Zanger hand-painted stone tiles. In this case, the Ucello Border. Retail would make you weep. Fireplace surround, if you please. Oh, and I got some cute little limestone rhombos to fill out the rest of the space.

We're all going down together.
Drywall anyone? Just keep me distracted. Studs and mud are a lot cheaper.

[Steven Hauser]

Sticks and stones Andrea Sticks and stones.

BTW that border is nice, we installed it in a bath for one of our clients. She was extremely pleased with the aesthetic it created.

:)

[Bob NH]

There are a couple of things that suggest that it is a structural problem.

It looks like the recessed rectangular area may have been a discontinuity in the original framing, such as an opening or a wall that was extended. If the underlying framing of an opening doesn't have horizontal framing or surface material such as plywood that ties it to the full-height wall, then you will have a sort of a hinge at that point, which could result in breaking the tile.

The solution is to use a stud covering material such as plywood on both sides of the framing that extends past the discontinuity with no joint within one full stud space from the corner. If I had to fix something that I never wanted to come back to, I would use a double thickness with the joints of the two thicknesses on separate studs. That way, you would get a more continuous wall with no hinge effect.

There is another possible problem if it is a masonry wall with some kind of discontinuity such as the opening or recess. Inside square corners almost always crack. If you ever see a sidewalk with an inside sharp corner, there will almost always be a crack at the corner. That is why you always want a groove or joint at an inside corner to control the direction and appearance of the inevitable crack. In a case of tile on a masonry wall or concrete floor around an opening, there should be substantial steel reinforcing around the opening and the tile pattern should be laid so the grout lines intersect the corner.

Unfortunately, the fix in this case is probably a tear-back for at least a couple of feet from the crack to allow inspection and reconstruction of the substructure.

A point about doubling plywood:
(1) The joints of the two layers should never line up.
(2) Screws and nails are not nearly as effective as adhesive, which should be used in addition to the fasteners, because the fasteners can't develop enough shear strength between the layers. Two layers of plywood are twice as stiff as one layer, but two layers glued together are eight times as stiff and four times as strong as one layer.

[Andrea345]

Bob NH,
Some interesting points. Thank you for your thoughts on this. We did end up firing the GC and the drywaller off this project. This is an original bathroom and the back wall we are looking at is the original back wall of the bathroom. There is a mix of concrete board and drywall in the wall. Drywall was used in those areas where there wasn't going to be tile. Where there was, the layers (from the studs up) were concrete board, chicken wire, and then concrete. What I don't remember is where the joint is for that new concrete board. It's basically 36" from the corner, maybe 35", so there would be a stud between this area and the back wall. Sister studs were added and I do remember horizontal bracing between the studs. That "tear-out", yes, we're expecting that.
In a case of tile on a masonry wall or concrete floor around an opening, there should be substantial steel reinforcing around the opening and the tile pattern should be laid so the grout lines intersect the corner.
This, I'm not so sure about. I remember the metal chicken wire, but no rebar.

Thank you again for your time,
-a


She was extremely pleased with the aesthetic it created.
Steven, my husband is soooo not happy to hear this. An innocent husband is now suffering your karma.

Thanks guys,
-a