Ulysses/Odysseus Myth no more

[Eric Philson]

Seems they've located his tomb as well as his hometown of Ithaca. Just goes to show, truth is the stuff legends are made of. :)

Here's an article about the find.
http://maderatribune.1871dev.com/news/newsview.asp?c=167178

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[Shaughnn]

Thank you Eric!!!,
Now THIS is really cool! :) :) :) :king:
Shaughnn

[Eric Philson]

He lives on as the seafarer's seafarer eh? :)

[cx]

That is tres interesting. :)

[jjwq8]

Well if the article is accurate in its reporting of the politicing, then perhaps another ancient quote applies:

"I mistrust Greeks who come bearing gifts" :D

Kefalonia gets my vote.

[John Bridge]

Homer never told us whether he was speaking factually or whether he was just being creative. There is as much reason to trust this report as there is to doubt it. I'm sure there will be others who follow up. I'm no acient scholar, but this is very intriguing.

I should have said I'm no scholar of ancient history. And I ain't no scholar, even, but I think I might get ancient one of these days. :D

[Eric Philson]

Lends credence to the Iliad too, at least in my book.

[jjwq8]

Theres that modesty again John.

Fess up anyway coz we know Homer was a classmate of yours:D

[smee]

Yeeaaayyy - History forum is alive! And everyone is here.

Hi Jeremy :wave: Good to see you're around.

Eric - that's a great article - I wonder where there would be some more information.

I was just watching CSPAN booknotes and listened to an author (whose name escapes me) but he wrote a book (the name escapes me too - sorry)
about the Athenian and Spartan wars - and warfare. Really cool stuff.

[Shaughnn]

Linda,
If you can find it at your local public library, Hans Delbruck wrote a wonderful series of books under the sub-title ":History of the Art of War" They cover "Antiquity", "Renaissance", "Medieval", "Modern (World War One)" and "Within the Political Framwork". Some of his writting is out-dated as it was first published prior to Archduke Ferdinand's roadtrip to Sarajevo but it's widley seen as a keystone to studying warfare. The books are pricey but I have the set which I could loan you if you are interested in reading them enough to work out the logistics with me? :)

[smee]

Shaughnn - history minds think alike. I have the set myself - since I am a history and especially Military history freak - my library at home is chuck full of Military history, strategic Military history and battlefield studies.

Wierd huh. What can I say - I got issues.
Well, anyway - I was wondering more specifically about finding more info on the Ulysses\Odysseus site.

but thanks for reminding me - the military history writing community doesn't keep up with my reading appetites - I will often reread books I haven't read for some time.

:)

[Shaughnn]

Speaking of the history writting community, can anyone recommend a study of early Roman history? With the new HBO series (we are enjoying it's theatrics) and a related History channel show on Roman engineering feats, I'm curious to find some biographies of emperors and maybe some insight into the inner workings of the Senate.
Don't know about the Greek stuff but as the tomb article listed the museum where Ulysses' broach is being kept, I'm sure that they will have some material availabe, if only to promote themselves. It's quite a feather for any curator's cap, I'd think.
Shaughnn

[smee]

Hey Shaughnn - again!

uh, Verbruggen is the quintissential book of Roman Studies - it's pricey - between $75-$100! Alibris would have it.

A good overview - cruisin' into book of medium length is "Roman Realities"
That was a great overview and intro of studies - I enjoyed it very much.

I also have a couple books on JC and Augustus era at home, but don't know the titles and whatnot's.

I could send you that later.

[John Bridge]

I think you should start a new thread on the Romans. I have watched the stuff on TV. First time the History Channel has had anything that could be called new since I've been watching it. ;)

Leave this thread to Homer. Someone might drift in with some new info. :)

[smee]

Yes, yes - sorry for going adrift....

and now.....we'll return to our regular programming......
Homer and the gang

[John Bridge]

So Linda, I didn't mean to drive you off. Sorry. :)

Make a post on the Romans. I'll chime in with my History Channel knowledge. Didn't crack any books, though. :)

[smee]

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: it's okay. Nobody could help me with my felker either - starting to feel ostricized.... ;)


To Rome!

[Steven Hauser]

:)

Nice article about Odysseus. Hope its true. I liked the Illiad.

[Angie]

Holy Cow - I actually did my college degree on Greek archaeology (why I'm a secretary now) of this period. I love Homer (though I like the Odyssey way more than the Iliad). This is very fun news. That's what makes this stuff so much fun. It's all a puzzle trying to find where the truth ends and the story starts.... and just enjoying a really great story.

Boy I really love this site! Tiling and Bronze Age Greek Archaeology all rolled into one!

[John Bridge]

Hi Angie, :)

I for one am glad you did your college stint in Greek Archeology. Education is not all about making money, afterall. ;)

It's getting a bit late for me, but I always thought that if I did go for a degree it would be along those lines, maybe straight out liberal arts, maybe archeology, history, lit., etc. Maybe environmental engineering. Not. ;)

[Angie]

And 4 summers working in Greece wasn't too shabby although it does sound way more glamorous than it ends up (doesn't everything). AND if one is going to have to learn a foreign language in college, it might as well really look foreign. You can't beat Homer in Greek! Ah the good ol' days of my youth.

[smee]

Angie - you're my hero! That's awesome.

So, tell me what would you say are the best translated versions of Homer?

[Angie]

I haven't read multiple translations. In English I've only read one translation of each and I was never a Greek scholar to argue merits of various translations. But try to find a translation that still makes it sound like a poem to stay close rather than prose. They would have sounded something like the Song of Hiawatha (closest I can think of off the top of my head). You know - sort of sing songy, chanty in a poem. They weren't originally written and read, they were recited and the pitch and meter makes it sound almost sung.

[John Bridge]

Now that we are on the verge of proving that Odysseus actually lived, I wonder if we'll be able to decide the same of Homer. There are theories afloat that the Illiad and the Oddysey were not written by the same author. :)

[smee]

Perhaps it was really Laertes. He was real wasn't he?

Let's put fourth our ideas on who possibly could be the author...

And I know it's off topic - forgive me - but did you hear they just came up with another Shakespeare contender....

Will (unintended pun) it ever end?

[jjwq8]

Having read his wonderful book I can safely say that in my humble opinion and despite clear evidence that he is almost as old Moses, it was not the Mudmeister :D

[John Bridge]

Wow, that's a relief. ;)

[Angie]

Now that we are on the verge of proving that Odysseus actually lived, I wonder if we'll be able to decide the same of Homer. There are theories afloat that the Illiad and the Oddysey were not written by the same author. :)

Here's my Homer lecture. I'm pretty middle aged now so this is coming from the ancient history of my life by now. Sorry for the long response but so much of this is a juicy mystery, there are no answers so none are short.

There are billions of theories about Homer. The one that was the most put forward in my Greek classes was that nobody actually "wrote" the stories. They were part of an oral tradition and not written at all when they were created. They were recited and passed on orally. Homer gets the credit because he's the guy who actually wrote them down, recorded them, but that's not the same as created them from nothing in the first place. The "evidence" for the creation over time comes both from linguistic evidence, things that are both older and newer in the language appearing, and archaeological, stuff appears that is much later than original period. So the idea, just a theory but probably prevalent, is that after the Trojan war, bards started singing the story and over the decades and centuries the stories were developed further, and then hundreds of years later Homer actually writes them down. You can see that the story developed over time in things like descriptions of armor which actually existed but had long since disappeared by the time the story was written. The guy who wrote about it would never have seen the armor he was writing about. Archaeologists thought it was just invention until they actually dug some up. But we know it was not all written that early because elements also appear that weren't invented until hundreds of years after the war. The same thing happens with words and grammar - both earlier and later stuff is found.

Sorry to run on.

[John Bridge]

Angie, Run on all you want. I love it, and I think the others do, too. ;)

[smee]

yes, angie - please do

[jjwq8]

Why is it even an issue? Nobody disputes the validity of oral history. Indeed in America you have an outstanding tradition of such feats of cultural memory within the native tribes.
Homer was in his way no better or worse than one Billy Shakespeare, who developed his stories from historical snippets, many of which are now in dispute in their own right but does not in any way lessen the impact or the glory of the tale told.

[smee]

Of course J, you are right. However, it can't hurt to drum it up again and again, and again....

Have they declared or have they evidence that Homer did exist? Sorry, Angie - I didn't do so well in my Greek Studie!

And BtW who is this guy now touted as the new W.S? I think it's humorous that he is a figure never before thought of - now the purists are upset, the marlowists are upset, the DeVereists, the list goes on.....probably even the Richard III Society -just because.