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robert august
09-11-2005, 07:28 PM
any thoughts on how to naul tack strips into concrete for carpet to be cut back to tile, two closets that have to be done, do i just nail it into the cement with a regular hammer

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cx
09-11-2005, 07:38 PM
Special tack strip with concrete nails, Robert. Just hit them little boogers one smart lick with a framing pounder. One smart lick. Ain't a time to be gentle, but is a time to be accurate.

If the tile is already in place (bad eye-dee), some of us who ain't as confident of our accuracy as once we mighta been will use a large drift and pounder on it instead. Ruin your day when you smack one of them tiles instead of one of them tacks. :(

My opinion; worth price charged.

Indiana Floors
09-11-2005, 07:39 PM
any thoughts on how to naul tack strips into concrete for carpet to be cut back to tile, two closets that have to be done, do i just nail it into the cement with a regular hammer

Get some 5/8 reinforcement nails it will make your life easier.
Good balanced hammer will help.
most flyswatters will make you hit the base/ tile ect....

Davestone
09-11-2005, 07:44 PM
This is the one thing in tilework that i admit I CANNOT DO!Nail in a tack strip,and i've practiced for 25 years! :bow: :bow: :bow: :bang:

chukar8
09-11-2005, 07:55 PM
You can also glue it down with "liquid nails" let it dry overnight and itll be fine.
(clean the concrete of dust etc. first though)

robert august
09-11-2005, 08:19 PM
chukar i like the glue idea, i normally dont do this i make the homeowner get somone ot do it, i set tile not carpet but they are friends so i have to make an eception, thanks for the ideas

tileguy80
09-11-2005, 08:53 PM
actually the best way is to use a masonary bit with alluminum nails. The alluminum nails are square and when forced into a round hole mackes for a very good connection. The reason in know this is that along with tile, I also install carpet sometimes. Man do I hate installing carpet, to hard on the body, give me tile any day of the week

Indiana Floors
09-11-2005, 09:02 PM
actually the best way is to use a masonary bit with alluminum nails. The alluminum nails are square and when forced into a round hole mackes for a very good connection. The reason in know this is that along with tile, I also install carpet sometimes. Man do I hate installing carpet, to hard on the body, give me tile any day of the week
Drilling and tapping is very time consuming. :bang:

Been laying floors 23 years and I can count the times I have drilled and tapped.
Glue is good I will liquid nail if I have the dry time, 24 hours. :cool:

Epoxy works good also it drys in 15 minutes.
Try the Contact Cement aisle at Lowes,Get the epoxy works good for small areas. :)

tileguy80
09-11-2005, 09:20 PM
Only alot of work if using a cheap hammerdrill, I have one that will drill a hole in any concrete in about 3 seconds. Alot of times if you use nails they dont always hold good. Don't have to worry with the aluminum one.

cx
09-11-2005, 09:37 PM
I've heard of the aluminum nail method, Jason, but I've never seen the nails anywhere. Not that I've looked very diligently.

And I don't know where the "tapping" came in. Just drillin' and drivin' is the way I see it, and I certainly agree that drilling small holes inna concrete with a decent hammer drill is quick and painless.

My opinion; worth price charged.

MHI
09-11-2005, 10:05 PM
I think every tilesetter should know how to finish a carpet transition. I say this because it is a skill I have yet to learn, and I know I should be able to do it.:D

I just hammer the dual purpose tack strip in. If you are worried about smacking the tile, use a small piece of plywood as a shield. Hold it vertically like a wall in front of the tile edge. That will direct any misplaced hammer blows.

I can finish a carpet to a marble threshold, but I have yet to learn how the carpet guys do that rolled edge that goes right against tile on slab. I have been leaving those details up to the homeowner to call the carpet guy back.:)

JoeC
09-11-2005, 10:49 PM
If you worry about hitting the tile, a quicker alternative to liquid nails is urethane glue from a flooring company. You can work with it in about two hours. It really holds! JoeC

sdaniels7114
09-12-2005, 05:06 AM
You want to keep your shoulders square to the wall that you are attaching the tackless next to. The hammer has a tendency to swing left/right, not so much up/down. Its a hard habit to develop since your moving laterally as you drive each nail; but it cuts way down on misses. That means you have to get up and get in the closet, not work from the outside. You also want to hold the tackless down on the floor as firmly as possible with your free hand. I use the Aluminum nails on the real hard floors; but you have to use a hammer drill to make the holes. A regular drill will wear out the bit in 5-10 holes for some reason. A hammer drill keeps the bit sharp for hours.

Industry standard calls for 1-1.5% stretch on virtually all wall to wall carpets. That's roughly 1.5 inches of stretch over 10 feet. If you don't have the means to get that kind of stretch, a kicker will only do it in very small areas, you might as well let the carpet guy install the tacks and do the stretch. An understretched carpet is not very different than a tile job set directly on OSB.

opiethetileman
09-12-2005, 05:30 AM
THe roll look they get is from a thing called a z bar. It goes under the tack strip a piece of metal. I am sure you have ripped some out. It acts like a vice grip and pulle the carpet. I use a 16 oz eastwing hammer for tackstrip. I also use my finger as a gauge from the tile or wall when nailing the strip in place. they make an idot proof carpet tucket that is plastic I like to use in case my eyes arnt that good and miss the nail. I agree every tile man or gal should know how to finish a carpet tuck on a job. I am sure you guys have come across this alot in your stone age time. They do make that new strip that glues down but it sucks the big kaohalla. Waste of money. good luck and make sure you have 9 fingers when you are done.

Indiana Floors
09-12-2005, 05:41 AM
Some drill and tap some hammer,some glue.

I have met very few slabs I cannot nail.
Most that I cannot nail are watertight basements that cannot be nailed has to be glued.
No holes in the concrete.

chukar8
09-12-2005, 07:40 AM
You can buy the aluminum nails at any floor supply co. they are made by CRAIN tools, and GUNDLACH tools, the polyurethane adhesive does work well also and is dry in 2 hrs sometime a good alternative, its called "chemrex" also at youre floor supply co's. The reason i suggested liquid nails, is because its easy to find easy to use without finding a floor supply co, but yes the aluminum nails do work very well. :yipee: Unfortunetly, i too have a carpet past that im not proud of :shake: lol

Davestone
09-12-2005, 08:05 PM
Sdaniels, and Opie..i'll bet after all your good advice....I STILL CAN"T NAIL ONE DOWN! :yeah:

MHI
09-12-2005, 08:19 PM
So, how do you carpet guys do that rolled over tucked under edge right up against tile? I've seen how its done with wood floors, by using a blind tack method. Is it the same with concrete?

Trade secrets please. Don't worry, I don't want to underbid you on a carpet job.:D

I just wan't to know for when I have to tile a foyer or anything that replaces a section of carpet.:)

Does Michael Byrne have a carpet book.:D

Indiana Floors
09-12-2005, 08:46 PM
It is a metal that the tack strip nails down through and the carpet tucks under the metal edge and you beat it down with a hammer.

Some guys turn and tack with a staple gun .
I do not use this method I think it is sloppy.

krash
09-12-2005, 08:51 PM
I do NOT suggest you glue the tack strip down with liquid nails, that is if you want a repeat or satisfied customer.

Have you ever seen a mirror slapped on a wall after 5 years by a contractor who used liquid nails?

Different adhesives have different properties, in the case of liquid nails, it is horrible for "outgassing" which means certain compounds in the adhesive somewhat "evaporate" over time which can have adverse effects to what you are putting near it.

If you have seen a mirror slapped on a wall with "liquid nails" over time you get a hailo, or ghosting effect where the glue is.

I'm no carpet guy, but if i were doing this project i would ask a carpet guy what adhesive to use, if they say liquid nails, i can assure you my Grandpa who owned 4 carpet stores would role around in his grave!

If it were my project, and I had no input from a carpet pro as to what adhesive to use if any, I would take the time to find out the proper adhesive, or i would take the time to drill and use TapCons! Carpet is very sensitive to certain outgassing as they use petroleum based materials in the stain guard applications they apply at the factories!

In my main business, which is electronics, we look at the plastic compounds very carefully as two different types of plastic may have adverse effects on each other, due to the petroleum outgassing properties of each material and how they affect each other.

The only other caviat to this is if your carpet is 100% non-treated, which is virturally impossible to get now days.

sdaniels7114
09-12-2005, 09:16 PM
Its all in getting the tackless placed very tight to the tile, and stretching it hard. I can't explain how you know how much to trim off, that takes practice. If you place the tack strip 2/3's of the carpet thickness away from the tile, or even closer if its not real dense, you'll be at least close to perfect.

No matter what you do, it won't hold permanently if the rug is just bumped on with a kicker. The tension from stretching is what locks it onto the tackless. If the carpet is loosely stretched, nothing short of staples will give you a reliable edge.

Edit: my answer was for Matt, primarily. Kurtis, I've heard of vapor pressure causing Liquid Nails to fall off of the concrete over time' but never what you describe. Wouldn't the gas just pass through the carpet? Its not airtight.

cx
09-12-2005, 09:55 PM
Gotta agree with Steve here, Curtis. There are a whole hellofa lot of pookies that are not suitable for gluing mirrors. That doesn't make them unsuitable for gluing a whole lot of other things. As for outgassing, damn near anythig that constitutes a Construction Adhesive does some outgassing. Anything that will actually hold a tack strip to concrete is gonna be made from chemicals that give off some gasses when curing. I've personally never heard of any of them affecting carpet, including those used to glue some carpets to concrete floors. And I bet you'll find that those pookies (the full-spreads for carpet gluing) contain materials very close to those in Liquid Nails.

Maybe some of our carpet kickers (some of'em won't admit it :D ) will chime in here and tell me I'm FOS, though.

My opinion; worth price charged.

chukar8
09-12-2005, 11:23 PM
WEve used beats nails for years with no problems, thats a pretty good record eh??? :) Especially over radiant heat floors.

krash
09-13-2005, 06:05 AM
I was referring to liquid nails only. Yes all adhesives will outgas, all I know is that "liquid nails" itself was always frowned upon by grandpa. That particular adhesive can have adverse effects with some of the stain guard chemicals applied to carpets, doesnt matter if its airtight, or not. Other adhesives have different properties and their outgassing may not be a problem.

I have seen carpet that looks "dirty" all around the perimiter which was laid on concrete, but you cant get it clean. I've been told that was because they put the tack strips down with liquid nails and not the appropriate adhesive.

again, no carpet guy here, just throwing in my 2 cents based on what I have been told. NOt that its worth anything.!

I defer to the fuzzy side up guys!!!

chukar8
09-13-2005, 08:23 AM
Kurtis, it is a good thought, i mean i have seen pvc vinys stained because the contractor used construction adhesive under the underlayment. These adhesives do outgas especially solvent based ones, its just that ive never seen it bother carpet--i suppose if you had and impervious backing it could--i ve just never seen it. :)

sdaniels7114
09-13-2005, 05:36 PM
That dirtyness you noticed around the perimeter could very well have been mold.

Indiana Floors
09-13-2005, 05:50 PM
I have seen carpet that looks "dirty" all around the perimiter which was laid on concrete, but you cant get it clean. I've been told that was because they put the tack strips down with liquid nails and not the appropriate adhesive.

"What?"


If carpet looks dirty around the perimeter it cause it is !

That is a called improper vacumning.

The liquid nails has nothing to do with this.

Dust has a tendency to collect in certain areas and they are the area not hit by mrs homeowner

I would recheck that info.

MHI
09-13-2005, 05:51 PM
Steve, Thanks for the info.:)

What did you guys do before they had power stretchers. I can remember a day when all there was were kickers.

Indiana Floors
09-13-2005, 05:57 PM
Kurtis, it is a good thought, i mean i have seen pvc vinys stained because the contractor used construction adhesive under the underlayment. These adhesives do outgas especially solvent based ones, its just that ive never seen it bother carpet--i suppose if you had and impervious backing it could--i ve just never seen it. :)
Never and I have done floors for 23 years.

I have seen chalk lines bleed through interflex vinyl.
I have seen liquid nails ripple cove base,too hot!
I have seen alot but I have never seen consruction adhesive bleed through underlayment.

Out gassing is not what you think.
It is very limited and takes many other forces to incur failure.
It is a keyword with little understanding of the full issue.

Indiana Floors
09-13-2005, 05:59 PM
Steve, Thanks for the info.:)

What did you guys do before they had power stretchers. I can remember a day when all there was were kickers.
And horseshoe needles.

chukar8
09-13-2005, 09:20 PM
Ill tell you something hugh, recheck youre info, with a solvent based adhesive it can react with adhesives used in the construction of certain underlayments, especially p-board----- especially is this noticed when using a homogenius sheetvinyl its caused by chemical reactions...and outgasing.
Thats documented fact!!!! :)

btw hugh: have you had any problems logging on to the fci board, i have and im wondering if thier having problems with thier site?????

RubberFrog
09-13-2005, 09:25 PM
I'm so afraid of the pl400 I used on my joists that I need to recheck my shorts!

Bellsfloors
09-13-2005, 09:56 PM
Going back to what sdaniels7114 and opiethetileman said. The carpet does require the 1-1.5% stetch initially when first installed but only needs the correct amount of stretch to bring it back to position after release (unless of course there is a pre-exsisting wrinkle problem already evident, then a qualified Carpet installer would be needed to restretch the entire room)

The rolled edge look is done a couple of ways. One with the item described earlier "Z-BAR and TACKSTRIP". The other is "rolled and tacked" or more commonly stapled but only on wood surfaces. My preference is always the Z-Bar method since it is very strong, accurate, straight, and sometimes re-usable.

I ussually don't use the glue method as I have seen tackstrip actually delaminate from a hard stretch or the adhesive release from the concrete over time. Instead I use a 3/4" masonary nail nailed into a pre-drilled 1/8" hole. I use a 1/8" double ended carbide square bit fit inside an adapter chuck. This method has never failed me as some glues and even aluminum nails have. I have in one desperate week resorted to using 3/4" roofing nailes hammered into the pre-drilled hole. The nail has to bottom out and expand in the hole to work. I was actually amazed at how well this worked!! It did take the tension of a carpet stretched at the percentages required without giving problems.

Anyway after 21 years I still install carpet quite frequently as the demand is still there at my rates and not a flooring stores pay quotes. :)

Yes my name is Tracy and I have a problem, I install carpet also. :crazy: :)

chukar8
09-13-2005, 10:04 PM
Hey Tracy, we need to start a 12 step program for carpet installers.lol
I like youre idea on the concrete nail id try it but i stopped doing carpet 10 yrs ago, and still not regreting the decision. :crazy:

sdaniels7114
09-13-2005, 10:13 PM
Steve, Thanks for the info.:)

What did you guys do before they had power stretchers. I can remember a day when all there was were kickers.

I've seen pics of guys with stretchers that look pretty old to me certainly before my birth in '69. The only reason I started using one is 'cause I learned about them online.

NVC
09-13-2005, 10:53 PM
Steve, that was when they made their own out of wood, and they were gratful. :D

The Hoosier, err Indiana ;) mentioned horseshoe needles. That gave me a grin as when I started as a 13 year old helper, the "tile guy" did all flooring, carpet/linolium (blow-torch) and hardwood. He pretty much stopped doing carpet, except for really custom 'sewn-in' borders/cut patterns. He had the needle and thread, he sewed 'em then used the iron and tape. I just assumed he didn't quite trust the tape/iron, but I could be wrong. I remember him asking "What's funny?" and I said "I didn't know men sewed" I stopped laughing when his face looked like he was thinking about popping me across the room. :)

Cutting carpet scares me. I'll cut $38.00/sq.ft. marble w/o batting an eye, but the fear of messing up a 'whole' room frightens me. I guess it's because I don't know how to install the room o'carpet if I boogered it up.:D Kudos to ye carpet baggers, I appreciate your insight.

Mark

chukar8
09-13-2005, 10:59 PM
Thats how it is here where i live, the floor installer does all aspects of flooring, including laminate (formica etc.) countertops, tile, wood, sheetgoods, carpet, etc,etc, etc. Kind of different than where im from originally. :)

stullis
09-14-2005, 11:17 AM
If you don't have the correct tackstrip, drilling is faster than gluing when doing small areas. If you do glue you must use the proper glue. Liquid Nails is a generic/brand name as they do make many different types of glues. Same with PL brand.

If you don't have aluminum drives you can still fasten them using regular nails or use masonry nails like Tracy suggested. To use a regular nail drill a hole slightly larger than the nail but deeper than the length. You don't want it to bottom out. Then fill the hole with another nail or toothpick so that when you drive the nail it wedges in the hole. Alternatively you could also use mollies but that is really slow.

Sounds like some of you better stick to calling the carpet guy to refasten the carpet though. At least they should have the correct tools. ;)


Carpet backings have changed over the years and while there may have been a time an installer could get by with just a kicker with todays backings a stretcher is definitely needed. Stretchers do date way back though.

pitterpat
09-14-2005, 12:21 PM
what about installing to Schluter strip that has the side for carpet? Same methods?
Pat

stullis
09-14-2005, 03:30 PM
You still need tackstrip on the carpet side if it is stretch-in carpet.

Indiana Floors
09-14-2005, 07:10 PM
btw hugh: have you had any problems logging on to the fci board, i have and im wondering if thier having problems with thier site?????

Yeah thier main server is offline.

Ya gotta use a back door.

I can see a slight reaction with p board and liquid nails but...
I do not lay vinyl over p-board it is an unacceptable substrate.
As far as glue reaction that is moot.

Jason_Butler
09-17-2005, 06:51 PM
I use a hammer drill and tapcon anchors to secure the tack strip - Also use a Z-bar..

I have a hard time stretching the carpet with a kicker and keeping it on the strip when tucking under the z-bar though.

For sure...the concrete anchors won't come out :nod:

dave on his knees
09-18-2005, 08:08 AM
Hi guys: As a current carpet installer, I thought I would throw my 2 cents in. Use 7/8 inch aluminum drives with a solid carbide bit, driving those hardened nails that come with concrete tack strip is hard work, and then 1 out of 2 don't hold anyway. This is by far the fastest way to install tack strip on concrete, other then the new urethanes (chemrex) which I haven't tried yet. Depending on the type of carpet installed next to tile, and the tile is higher than the carpet, you can just place the tack strip next to the tile with a small space 1/4 to 3/8ths inch and tuck the carpet down between the tile and tack strip. But Z-bar is the best way to turn over carpet.
Always use a carpet stretcher or stay nail the stretched carpet before loosening it in a doorway. I remember the old days of sewing carpets by hand and then applying liquid latex to the back of the carpet so the sewing thread would stay together. I would help my dad in the 1960's and it was fun to coat your hands with the latex and then peel it off when it dried. My dad even made a carpet stretcher once out of some 2x4's and alot of nails to make the stretcher head. Then he wedged a 2x4 between 2 other 2x4s and levered it tight. Got a good stretch on the carpet but it sure took some time. Carpet stretchers have been around since the 1800's and I have attached a picture of an early stretcher.

PS I would rather do tile anyday than carpet, but I have to feed my wife's pocket book.

ContinentalJimmy
09-21-2005, 09:15 PM
Robert,

As a distributor, I would suggest a urethane adhesive. The best is from Chemrex- CX948. You can reinstall the carpet in 2 hours.

The next best thing is to drill and use aluminum nails, at least 7/8" long. This method will alow the use of Z-bar which offers the best edge for finishing and clamping the edge of the carpet down.

Also, be aware of the height difference between the tile and the carpet. You may need to use a shim or ramp to bring the carpet up to the correct height for a nice transition, these are installed under the carpet & pad. A last solution is an oak transition that the carpet can be tucked to and will also enhance the tile installation while giving a smooth transition to the carpet.

Jimmy

NVC
09-21-2005, 09:48 PM
Carpet guys, thanks for the info, it helps (at least me anyway)

Dave, the 'stay nail' technique you mentioned, how does a guy go about doing that correctly (slab or wood)? So I could just use a kicker to put it back.


thanks,

Mark

MHI
09-22-2005, 07:16 AM
How about using a PAT to hold down the tackless? Just load in a strip of .27, and shoot away...or is that overkill.:)

dave on his knees
09-22-2005, 09:31 PM
Mark: Darn hard to stay nail in a slab, but on wood you nail thru the carpet with a roofing nail firmly into the wood leaving the head of the nail sticking up a little. Space the nails about 4" apart and about 4" away from the where the carpet is tacked in the doorway, then you take the carpet loose at the doorway. The nails will hold the stretch pretty well. When putting back the carpet next to the tile use your knee kicker to make sure you have no slack attach to tack strip and then pull out nails. I should get you some pictures.

NVC
09-23-2005, 08:34 AM
Thanks Dave, good tip. Are there any carpet types when you wouldn't 'stay nail' them on account of muckin' 'em up?

Mark

dave on his knees
09-23-2005, 11:43 AM
Mark: Not that I am aware of.