Dumb, Really Dumb, Hurricane Quotes

[Scooter]

"I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees." President Bush, on "Good Morning America," Sept. 1, 2005, six days after repeated warnings from experts about the scope of damage expected from Hurricane Katrina

"What I'm hearing which is sort of scary is that they all want to stay in Texas. Everybody is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway so this (chuckle) - this is working very well for them." Former First Lady Barbara Bush, on the Hurricane flood evacuees in the Houston Astrodome, Sept. 5, 2005. Is she insaine or just out of it? Let them eat cake.

"It makes no sense to spend billions of dollars to rebuild a city that's seven feet under sea level....It looks like a lot of that place could be bulldozed." House Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.), 8/31/05 Right, Dennis, and when a tornado goes through Chicago, and kills thousands, we'll bulldoze your city.

"We've got a lot of rebuilding to do ... The good news is and it's hard for some to see it now that out of this chaos is going to come a fantastic Gulf Coast, like it was before. Out of the rubbles of Trent Lott's house he's lost his entire house there's going to be a fantastic house. And I'm looking forward to sitting on the porch." (Laughter) President Bush, touring hurricane damage, and making light of the disaster, Mobile, Ala., Sept. 2, 2005 Yeah, to compare the loss of one of Senator Lotts many homes to the loss in New Orleans. I'm sure FEMA will rebuild his home.

"Considering the dire circumstances that we have in New Orleans, virtually a city that has been destroyed, things are going relatively well." FEMA Director Michael Brown, entering spin city, Sept. 1, 2005 Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?

"I have not heard a report of thousands of people in the convention center who don't have food and water." Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, 4 days after the hurricane, on NPR's "All Things Considered," Sept. 1, 2005 Does he not watch television or read newspapers? Get a clue, dude.

"Well, I think if you look at what actually happened, I remember on Tuesday morning picking up newspapers and I saw headlines, 'New Orleans Dodged the Bullet.' Because if you recall, the storm moved to the east and then continued on and appeared to pass with considerable damage but nothing worse." Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, blaming media coverage for his failings, when no newspaper reported dodging any bullet, "Meet the Press," Sept. 4, 2005

This is a public relations disaster. Did GWB lose his handlers?

[Sponsored Links]

[rstreet]

Scooter,

There has been plenty of stupid things that have happened and been said since this storm. But since you only want to point out a onesided democrat opinion, here are a few articles that shows where the blame really starts, the city and state goverments.

Blame Amid the Tragedy
Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin failed their constituents.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007219

Gov. Kathleen Blanco's Bureaucrats Blocked Food and Water

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/9/7/235423.shtml

Update: Red Cross Says "We Were Kept From Superdome By State"

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7000060641

Ray Nagin: School Buses Not Good Enough

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/9/8/114045.shtml

[Scooter]

There is plenty of blame to go around. I'm not debating whether the City, County, State, FEMA or GWB acted appropriately. That will be debated to death.

I am merely pointing out some of the stupidest things I have heard said about this over the past week. And yes, it is fairly one-sided, because as far as I know, or have heard, the idiot quotes have only come from our beloved Federal Government. If you can direct me to stupid quotes by the City, County, or State officials, I would love to laugh at them, too.

I personally liked the one about bulldozing New Orleans. What was this idiot thinking?

[Davestone]

I said from the start, the reactions were woefully inadequate.When they repeatedly warn about how bad it will be...then the officials act like this is the first they heard about it, is ridiculous.There was no effort,or preparation at all, to back up. or repair the levees,immediately,it's ridiculous.And where were the emergency response teams? And govt. officials onsite to manage aid?And i believe you have to bulldoze parts of the city,it would be too costly and time consuming to shore up already 100 year old tenemants to be liveable.Good luck getting insurance there now, though,i had a heck of a time here in Fl., that's another whole idiotic story. :bow: :)

[rstreet]

Heres a real stupid quote:

Oprah Winfrey: "I think... this country owes these people (Katrina victims) an apology.

[jvcstone]

Pulled this off of another web site, Don't know how much if any is accurrate, but think some of it may be true.

FEMA refused to allow Red Cross to deliver food and water.

FEMA refused to allow Walmart trucks to deliver water.

FEMA told "First Responders" (on the FEMA website) NOT to respond.

FEMA cut essential emergency communications lines. Lines had to be restored by Sheriff's Office, and armed guards placed.

FEMA refused to allow the Coast Guard to deliver diesel fuel.

Armed troops set up check points to prevent survivors from walking out of the city.

FEMA refused to allow more than 500 air-boats from Florida to respond.

JVC

[Shaughnn]

John,
Had you also heard about the 1000 or so firefirghters who've gathered from all over the country to help? They brought their considerable training and equipment and FEMA has them sitting in a hotel in ATLANTA as of yesterday. All of them, that is, except for 50 that FEMA put on a plane and flew to Louisianna so that they could stand behind President Bush for a photo op. When they learned that that was all they were allowed to do, some took off their FEMA-supplied t-shirts as protest. I read interviews with one from Oregon and another from Pennsylvania and they seemed a little ticked off. :complain:
Shaughnn
An artcle (http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3004197) from the suspiciously liberal "Salt Lake Tribune"

[LadyGodiva]

What can I say to beat this? Nada. Your president says it best :D

"It's totally wiped out. ... It's devastating, it's got to be doubly devastating on the ground." —George W. Bush, turning to his aides while surveying Hurricane Katrina flood damage from Air Force One , Aug. 31, 2005

[smee]

The fact that we even have the tiniest bit of argument about just how (and I'll be kind here) poorly the Bush team is running our country is absurd.

Let's get real - and keep it real - this isn't a party issue. It doesn't matter one grain of sand whether Bush is an R or a D. The fact is in Bushville - all his village idiots screwed up in the grandest fashion.

It isn't state and local officials that are to blame here - get real. Those people aren't making the decisions that affected the 'not-building' of the levies and put all that money into the war effort.

This is common sense stuff - if 'smiley' our president had any sense of responsibility 'brownie' would be done - chertoff right behind him and he'd be kissing bootie all over the country and the world.

Did you know that Halliburton is heading up the rebuilding? Didn't waste any time putting that business deal together.

They won't fire 'brownie' (oh the irony at work there) because by doing so - Bushie would be admitting his failure, his failure in iraq, his failure at home - a a stark and horrific reality which we are only now starting to come out of the fog to see for ourselves live on tv.

and rstreet - none of those quotes was a personal attack on you - it's just a fact, they said it - I heard them.

and as far as Oprah is concerned - I don't see anything stupid about that statement...

We should all be ashamed that we put that guy in charge - this is serious - we are talking deaths on a scale far beyond 911 and here's the kicker - because of negligence at the federal government level.

just my .02s

[LadyGodiva]

Linda, you go girl :D :bow:

[Westie]

At least one TV station got the facts straight

http://www.planetdan.net/blog/2005/09/agreed.htm

[Scooter]

The LA Times had pictures of Sean Penn who rented his own helocopter helping rescue dogs last week.

FEMA was saying it was too dangerous to send in troops, but not for Sean Penn I guess. I always thought he was a compelte A-Hole, but my opinion of him has grown considerably, when he faces dangers that our own President and his staff won't undertake.

Does this mean that GWB will not do the bullhorn thing?

[smee]

United States of Shame
By MAUREEN DOWD
Published: September 3, 2005


Stuff happens.

And when you combine limited government with incompetent government, lethal stuff happens.

America is once more plunged into a snake pit of anarchy, death, looting, raping, marauding thugs, suffering innocents, a shattered infrastructure, a gutted police force, insufficient troop levels and criminally negligent government planning. But this time it's happening in America.

Skip to next paragraph

Fred R. Conrad/The New York Times

More Columns by Maureen Dowd

Forum: Maureen Dowd's Columns
W. drove his budget-cutting Chevy to the levee, and it wasn't dry. Bye, bye, American lives. "I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees," he told Diane Sawyer.

Shirt-sleeves rolled up, W. finally landed in Hell yesterday and chuckled about his wild boozing days in "the great city" of N'Awlins. He was clearly moved. "You know, I'm going to fly out of here in a minute," he said on the runway at the New Orleans International Airport, "but I want you to know that I'm not going to forget what I've seen." Out of the cameras' range, and avoided by W., was a convoy of thousands of sick and dying people, some sprawled on the floor or dumped on baggage carousels at a makeshift M*A*S*H unit inside the terminal.

Why does this self-styled "can do" president always lapse into such lame "who could have known?" excuses.

Who on earth could have known that Osama bin Laden wanted to attack us by flying planes into buildings? Any official who bothered to read the trellis of pre-9/11 intelligence briefs.

Who on earth could have known that an American invasion of Iraq would spawn a brutal insurgency, terrorist recruiting boom and possible civil war? Any official who bothered to read the C.I.A.'s prewar reports.

Who on earth could have known that New Orleans's sinking levees were at risk from a strong hurricane? Anybody who bothered to read the endless warnings over the years about the Big Easy's uneasy fishbowl.

In June 2004, Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, fretted to The Times-Picayune in New Orleans: "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us."

Not only was the money depleted by the Bush folly in Iraq; 30 percent of the National Guard and about half its equipment are in Iraq.

Ron Fournier of The Associated Press reported that the Army Corps of Engineers asked for $105 million for hurricane and flood programs in New Orleans last year. The White House carved it to about $40 million. But President Bush and Congress agreed to a $286.4 billion pork-filled highway bill with 6,000 pet projects, including a $231 million bridge for a small, uninhabited Alaskan island.

Just last year, Federal Emergency Management Agency officials practiced how they would respond to a fake hurricane that caused floods and stranded New Orleans residents. Imagine the feeble FEMA's response to Katrina if they had not prepared.

Michael Brown, the blithering idiot in charge of FEMA - a job he trained for by running something called the International Arabian Horse Association - admitted he didn't know until Thursday that there were 15,000 desperate, dehydrated, hungry, angry, dying victims of Katrina in the New Orleans Convention Center.

Was he sacked instantly? No, our tone-deaf president hailed him in Mobile, Ala., yesterday: "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job."

It would be one thing if President Bush and his inner circle - Dick Cheney was vacationing in Wyoming; Condi Rice was shoe shopping at Ferragamo's on Fifth Avenue and attended "Spamalot" before bloggers chased her back to Washington; and Andy Card was off in Maine - lacked empathy but could get the job done. But it is a chilling lack of empathy combined with a stunning lack of efficiency that could make this administration implode.

When the president and vice president rashly shook off our allies and our respect for international law to pursue a war built on lies, when they sanctioned torture, they shook the faith of the world in American ideals.

When they were deaf for so long to the horrific misery and cries for help of the victims in New Orleans - most of them poor and black, like those stuck at the back of the evacuation line yesterday while 700 guests and employees of the Hyatt Hotel were bused out first - they shook the faith of all Americans in American ideals. And made us ashamed.

Who are we if we can't take care of our own?

[smee]

Haunted by Hesitation

By MAUREEN DOWD
Published: September 7, 2005
WASHINGTON

It took a while, but the president finally figured out a response to the destruction of New Orleans.

Later this week (no point rushing things) W. is dispatching Dick Cheney to the rancid lake that was a romantic city. The vice president has at long last lumbered back from a Wyoming vacation, and, reportedly, from shopping for a $2.9 million waterfront estate in St. Michael's, a retreat in the Chesapeake Bay where Rummy has a weekend home, where "Wedding Crashers" was filmed and where rich lobbyists hunt.

Maybe Mr. Cheney is going down to New Orleans to hunt looters. Or to make sure that Halliburton's lucrative contract to rebuild the city is watertight. Or maybe, since former Senator John Breaux of Louisiana described the shattered parish as "Baghdad under water," the vice president plans to take his pal Ahmad Chalabi along for a consultation on destroying minority rights.

The water that breached the New Orleans levees and left a million people homeless and jobless has also breached the White House defenses. Reality has come flooding in. Since 9/11, the Bush administration has been remarkably successful at blowing off "the reality-based community," as it derisively calls the press.

But now, when W., Mr. Cheney, Laura, Rummy, Gen. Richard Myers, Michael Chertoff and the rest of the gang tell us everything's under control, our cities are safe, stay the course - who believes them?

This time we can actually see the bodies.

As the water recedes, more and more decaying bodies will testify to the callous and stumblebum administration response to Katrina's rout of 90,000 square miles of the South.

The Bush administration bungled the Iraq occupation, arrogantly throwing away State Department occupation plans and C.I.A. insurgency warnings. But the human toll of those mistakes has not been as viscerally evident because the White House pulled a curtain over the bodies: the president has avoided the funerals of soldiers, and the Pentagon has censored the coffins of the dead coming home and never acknowledges the number of Iraqi civilians killed.

But this time, the bodies of those who might have been saved between Monday and Friday, when the president failed to rush the necessary resources to a disaster that his own general describes as "biblical," or even send in the 82nd Airborne, are floating up in front of our eyes.

New Orleans's literary lore and tourist lure was its fascination with the dead and undead, its lavish annual Halloween party, its famous above-ground cemeteries, its love of vampires and voodoo and zombies. But now that the city is decimated, reeking with unnecessary death and destruction, the restless spirits of New Orleans will haunt the White House.

The administration's foreign policy is entirely constructed around American self-love - the idea that the U.S. is superior, that we are the model everyone looks up to, that everyone in the world wants what we have.

But when people around the world look at Iraq, they don't see freedom. They see chaos and sectarian hatred. And when they look at New Orleans, they see glaring incompetence and racial injustice, where the rich white people were saved and the poor black people were left to die hideous deaths. They see some conservatives blaming the poor for not saving themselves. So much for W.'s "culture of life."

The president won re-election because he said that the war in Iraq and the Homeland Security Department would make us safer. Hogwash.

W.'s 2004 convention was staged like "The Magnificent Seven" with the Republicans' swaggering tough guys - from Rudy Giuliani to Arnold Schwarzenegger to John McCain - riding in to save an embattled town.

These were the steely-eyed gunslingers we needed to protect us, they said, not those sissified girlie-men Democrats. But now it turns out that W. can't save the town, not even from hurricane damage that everyone has been predicting for years, much less from unpredictable terrorists.

His campaigns presented the arc of his life story as that of a man who stumbled around until he was 40, then found himself and developed a laserlike focus.

But now that the people of New Orleans need an ark, we have to question the president's arc. He's stumbling in Iraq and he's stumbling on Katrina.

Let's play the blame game: the man who benefited more than anyone in history from safety nets set up by family did not bother to provide one for those who lost their families.

[flatfloor]

I sent Linda a PM about copy and paste. :)

[cx]

Oh, no, Flatflour, that rule don't apply when I agree with what's been pasted. :D

[flatfloor]

I'm gonna paste you, you bowdark skull. :D

[bbcamp]

I read both of those pieces, and I'm not quite sure what Ms. Dowd was trying to say. I kinda wish she'd get to the point.

[rstreet]

Isn’t that what’s great about America, we can all have our own opinion about everything. I'm not taking any of it as personal attack, I just happen to have a different view that doesn’t match yours. I'm sure that we will all continue these types of opinion differences till we are dead and in the grave, then our kids will carry them on.

[John Corley]

How about Mr. Wests qoute

"Bush does not care about black people."

or the congresswoman from Georgia, she went from the holds of a slave ship to the concentration camps in one stupid foul swoop!

Racism anyone?

[smee]

Indeed, everyone is free to have differing opinions. Maybe that's something we in America take for granted.

However the great dynamic of freedom of speech is to listen.

on another note:

I was just thinking about a couple "incidents" of history. There was this guy - he was insanely weathy, inherited his role as leader of a nation, a huge nation, and whether through malice or simplistic ineptitude - he ignored the plight of the poor - fostered the rich and turned a blind eye to the problems of his nation. His actions gave rise to the Bolshevik Revolution which planted the seeds of communisim - a legacy we have been living with for nearly 100 years. That same basic scenario happened about a hundred and 40ish years earlier - called the French Revolution. Not to mention the countless uprisings in history against corrupt leadership.

Here's the thing - it IS a possibility that the leadership in America is as crooked as Lombard street...and damn good at manipulating the general population. It's starting to be very difficult to hide behind Carl Rove.

- please note that I am NOT implying we are communist - I AM comparing the neglect of our leadership to it's own people - and now we are all witness to the consequences. The world is witness to it.

I liked Bush in the beginning - however, over the years it's been harder and harder to turn away from the shennanegans in our government. We as a country are not infallible to making grave mistakes. We happen to have a guy in government that's never taken responsibility for himself prior to the presidency and which except for moments of reason has continued in that vein and certainly it's starting to show. And it's getting harder and harder to make excuses for him.

Yep, he did a great job during the 911 crisis. Afganistan and the events that are related to that disaster. However years later his methods are at best questionable, he and "his people" seem quite clearly to be running a government of personal agendas first and foremost and then maddeningly not dealing with the problems that creates thereafter.

The fact is Republican or Democrat doesn't mean dirt. If we have a president and cabinet in office that can't take care of it's own people - who gives a crap about Iraq or anywhere else? If he doesn't clean up his own backyard, instead of sucking it dry, he's gonna lose the house....that would be us.

and I think if I may say - something along those lines is what Ms. Dowd was saying.

Where are the billions of dollars going to come from to mitigate this disaster? For Bush's mistake - his preempting the doah for Iraq, downgrading FEMA to be run by clearly inept leaders is going to hurt for decades? Thing is, your kids and their kids and us into our "golden" years are going to be paying for his mistakes for a long time to come.

Did you know that Pat Robinson is listed on FEMA as a supporter and stands to make millions in the N. Orleans Deal - along with Halliburton.

I sure hope something good - something strong for the whole nation comes out of this situation. A thousand THANK YOUS to those people there right now, and those every where there is need for support and help - everyday people rising high to do the right thing. THAT is what America is about and the President sadly isn't measuring up.

Ok - I think I've added up to about .10 today, so I'll desist.

[Scooter]

Ding Dong! Michael Brown (Mr. Foot in Mouth), has essentialy resigned from FEMA. One down, about 3-4 to go.

I don't think the mayor or Governor will get reelected either.

I say we take up a collection for Trent Lott to rebuild his home or buy him a new Toupe.

[Mad dog]

Smee:

You totally rock. Don't stop now!

Scooter: I will happily send Trent Lott a bucketful of scraps of old tile and drywall, some chunks of broken glass, sawdust and a couple busted shingles. He should be able to make do with that. My dog would like to send him some stuff too. :tongue:

[Albert]

scooter, the governor has got to go but you're selling the mayor short. he is the first real non-politico had-a-real-job mayor the city's had in many decades. he was busy cleaning up the corruption and getting things done when katrina blew in from the gulf. the problems that happened there are way above his pay grade -- and he was more frustrated than eny of us about the lack of any support from the feds and all the bs news conferences with ebrybody slppin each other on the back about what a good job they was doin while we cood see four ourselves what was happnin on tv.

albert

[jvcstone]

I say we take up a collection for Trent Lott to rebuild his home or buy him a new Toupe.

I'm pretty sure his will be one of the first checks FEMA cuts if they haven't already :rolleyes:
JVC

[LadyGodiva]

I never did get the problem with copy/paste. Other forums allow it. Is this something to do with the size of this site? Serious question here.

[sandbagger]

Well, after reading this thread to this point I have to conclude that some of the dumbest quotes may very well be contained herein. And there are some serious deficits in understanding how our government works. Let's start with the supposed "dumb" statement by the Prez that started this thread: "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees." President Bush, on "Good Morning America," Sept. 1, 2005, six days after repeated warnings from experts about the scope of damage expected from Hurricane Katrinafrom Dictionary.com, "anticipate" is defined as "To deal with beforehand; act so as to mitigate, nullify, or prevent" Based on that definition, I do believe the President was dead on. Knowing about the possibility - which everyone did - and doing something about it - which nobody did - are quite different.

Moving on. Several references in posts to "FEMA" fail to distinguish between Fed and state agencies - they are totally separate entities. jvcstone posted several, including: FEMA refused to allow Red Cross to deliver food and water. We now know that it was the Louisiana FEMA under Gov Blanco that pulled this little gem. Let's not be so quick to say "FEMA = Bush." :fim:
and this from Scooter: There is plenty of blame to go around. I'm not debating whether the City, County, State, FEMA or GWB acted appropriately. That will be debated to death. uhh... maybe you should re-read your initial post - every single item was aimed at the President or someone in his administration. Not exactly "fair and balanced." :shake:

here's another gem, from "the artist chick" The fact that we even have the tiniest bit of argument about just how (and I'll be kind here) poorly the Bush team is running our country is absurd.

Let's get real - and keep it real - this isn't a party issue. It doesn't matter one grain of sand whether Bush is an R or a D. The fact is in Bushville - all his village idiots screwed up in the grandest fashion."not about politics"? PA-LEEEZE! I'm sure you'd make a statement just like that if was a "D" in the Oval Office, right? I may have fallen off a turnip truck, but I didn't land on my head. And the reference to "running the country" is interesting, and reflects the Civics 101 deficit I mentioned. The USofA is a republic, folks. (you don't have to like it, just understand it) The President and Congress run - the Federal Government. That includes matters that are considered "inter-state." But inside a state's borders? All states are in fact sovereign entities responsible for their own internal affairs (as long as they do not violate the US Constitution). Disaster planning starts locally and moves upward - city ->state ->federal. Are you suggesting that disaster planning for every city in America be done at the Federal level? Then what? Do you really want the Feds to take over your city/state every time something happens? Maybe you do - but you'd better amend the Constitution. :rolleyes:

artist chick again: It isn't state and local officials that are to blame here - get real. Those people aren't making the decisions that affected the 'not-building' of the levies and put all that money into the war effort. did you skip Civics for art class? It is precisely the local officials who are to blame. Let's start with the Landrieu family. They had plenty of influence - NO Mayor, Senator, and Lt Gov - but what have they done? How many bills did Mary introduce in Congress? We also know now that lots of Fed matching funds we left on the table because of the incompetence and near bankruptcy of the levee authority (or whatever the call it). And other Fed funds for the levees were diverted to "more important" projects. From Newsmax Louisiana Officials could lose Blame Game (http://newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/9/7/90925.shtml) :yeah:

as for the lovable Maureen Dowd, well, what can I say? It's not like Ms Dowd is much of a fan of GW Bush, now, is she? Come to think of it, she just like to bash Republicans in general; or have you never read her before now? But let's look at her "hesitation" claim. Fact is, Gov Blanco is well-known for being "deliberate," and that trait has been on display many times - just ask Mayor Nagin: http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/9/7/230054.shtml

enough for now. it's late. we'll pick this up tomorrow. :D :D

[Rob Z]

As I understand things, no one but the governor can order the use of National Guard troops, and the only control the President ever has over the NG is to call them to active duty for military service outside the country. No one at the federal level, including the President, can order the active duty military to perform peace keeping, law enforcement or disaster relief, or any other non-military mission within the US. Disaster relief is allowable, but only after the appropriate request from the governor. In other words, the President can't send in active duty troops to a state to do the work of the state without "permission" from the governor, no matter how worthy the mission might be.

[Mad dog]

This isn't really dumb quotes but it relates. Came forwarded in an email.



Friday, September 2nd, 2005

Dear Mr. Bush:

Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag.

Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to begin with?

Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know you didn't want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don't like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her!

I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps. Don't let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike?

And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn't cut the money to fix those levees, there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!

On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that.

There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland.

No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I mean, it's not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this!

You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit.

Yours,

Michael Moore

[davem]

Just about everything that comes out of Michael Moore qualifies as a really dumb quote.:p

[Shaughnn]

I never did get the problem with copy/paste. Other forums allow it. Is this something to do with the size of this site? Serious question here.
Eli,
If other forums allowed you to jump off of a bridge, would you do it? :) Seriously though, we'd just prefer that people include a link to an already published artcle if that is at all possible, rather than consume bandwidth here. There is a hyperlink button amoung the thread tools when you are composing a post, and it's incredibly simple to use.
Thanks,
Shaughnn

[sandbagger]

Just about everything that comes out of Michael Moore qualifies as a really dumb quote.:p:D :rofl: :D


and give Rob a gold star for his Civics report. :yeah:

[smee]

Well thank you Mr. Sandbagger -
The reality here my Civics Genius is the buck stopes with GW - you know the President. It's really that simple.

Anticipate, my little smug one, is exactly what our fair president did not do...or he and the rest of us wouldn't be in this little mess we're in now would we?

So, did you actually have something to say?

[John Bridge]

I'm losing track here, folks. It happens. Don't worry about it. ;)

[TangoCharlieOscar]

I agree with Sandbagger! Why is everything these days the President's fault? People need to take personal responsibility and that includes the Mayor of N.O. AND the Governor. IMHO, she's the one to blame. Along with the LA congressmen for not getting their share of all the pork that's dished out in WDC. (Of course, we can't get school funding reform passed here in Texas so our state legislators aren't much better - JB, you want to comment on that?)
The day after the levee broke, I told my wife that GWB needed to get people moving and not wait on the Governor to call. Because, if he did wait, he'd surely get blamed for it. Guess I was right.


And why hasn't anyone mentioned the quote by Wolfe Blitzer of CNN, something like "....and these people are so BLACK". Can you believe he said that? But, you don't hear anyone taking him to task on that. Now, if Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh had said it, it would be all over the tv, newspapers, Time, Newsweek....

just an observation

Tim
TcO

[sandbagger]

Well thank you Mr. Sandbagger -
The reality here my Civics Genius is the buck stopes with GW - you know the President. It's really that simple. ...... Sorry, darlin', but it's really not. :shake:

Or maybe it is - in reality the Constitution places considerable limits on just what a President - and Congress - can do within a state's borders. Part of the problem for you folks is that we have a President who actually understands that concept. (I'm sure the Texans here remember a little incident outside Waco a few years back? :nod: ) There are a number of sections of the Constitution I could quote, but the most specific is probably Article IV, Section 4: "The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence." (bold emphasis added)

That last statement is key. (can we all agree that a hurricane qualifies as "domestic violence?") Unless there is invasion from an outside force, the state must request Federal assistance. :yeah:
Anticipate, my little smug one, is exactly what our fair president did not do...or he and the rest of us wouldn't be in this little mess we're in now would we? sure it's mess - and mostly avoidable, sad to say. But the Constitution is clear - the President (in fact the Federal government) is no more responsible for those levees than he is for designing the evacuation plan that New Orleans officials failed to execute.

It's really that simple. :D

[smee]

Ah yes, the Constitution - oooh....now, now sugar, you sound like a lawyer.

Let me help you out - this isn't about the Constitution art - it's about the leadership and ethics of our President. But go ahead, keep getting off track - it's fun :yipee: :yipee:

The Federal Government allocated a large chunk of the State of Louisiana's budget - slated for the levee construction - for the war in Iraq. How is it that the state then becomes responsible when the Feds take away it's ability to complete the project in the first place? And how can you implement a prepared evacuation plan when the levees then put you 20 feet under water?
Had the levees not given way (see above explanation) - the plan would have been sufficient. Pa leese! It's indefensible.

Oh, but let's talk about the Constitution - cause hey, it has absolutely nothing to do with this - how very Bush, Inc-esque of you...

Bush took a chance and he fumbled - with a million lives - nice. He has been pulling funds from every where he can get away with to support his agenda in Iraq in the hopes something like this wouldn't happen?

Like I said - do you actually have anything to say? So far, not really.

If so, how about forgoe the declamatory lingo and t a l k s l o w l y SO, us "arty" people can understand - K?

Though I had brilliant art teachers, I also had amazing Poly Sci and History teachers in college. Both of which were my majors. I am quite familiar with the Constitutioin of the United States and how government works...but nice bs.

:yeah:

[sandbagger]

Ah yes, the Constitution - oooh....now, now sugar, you sound like a lawyer. no, just an informed citizen (an endangered species, I admit). so what is the problem with people who actually read the Constitution?? Pretty tough to participate in our government if you don't understand how it's supposed to work. But you can always take potshots at it, I suppose.

Let me help you out - this isn't about the Constitution art - it's about the leadership and ethics of our President. But go ahead, keep getting off track - it's fun :yipee: :yipee: WHOA!! was I asleep while the Supreme Court finally declared the entire Constitution un-Constitutional? Like it or not (apparently you don't) the Constitution defines how the Federal Government - all branches - is supposed to operate. Are you suggesting we ignore it? or maybe just use it when it's convenient? If you think that defines "ethics" and "leadership" - whoa baby!!
The Federal Government allocated a large chunk of the State of Louisiana's budget - slated for the levee construction - for the war in Iraq. Please - tell us your cat was sitting on your keyboard, or something. You didn't really mean to say that, did you? Feds messin' with a state budget? :rofl:
How is it that the state then becomes responsible when the Feds take away it's ability to complete the project in the first place? And how can you implement a prepared evacuation plan when the levees then put you 20 feet under water?
Had the levees not given way (see above explanation) - the plan would have been sufficient. Pa leese! It's indefensible.what's indefensible is such silly "logic." You obviously haven't read the evacuation plan; but that's OK - neither did the Mayor. If you have cat 3 levees - by design - and you have a cat 5 coming at you, you evacuate the city. You don't go dancing in the streets while the levees are breaking. As for those "reallocated" Fed funds - nonsense. I gave you this source once, but I'll repeat it one more time just to show what a niced guy I am. Louisiana has been leaving Fed matching funds on the table for years due to incompetence and corruption, and has taken funds that were supposed to go to the levees and spent them elsewhere. It's all here: Louisiana Officials could lose Blame Game. (http://newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/9/7/90925.shtml) If you have sources that prove the claims wrong, feel free to quote them. Oh, but let's talk about the Constitution - cause hey, it has absolutely nothing to do with this - how very Bush, Inc-esque of you...you're tryin' my patience, darlin'. You've placed 100% of the blame on the President, ignoring the hierarchy of responsibility clearly defined in the Constitution.
Bush took a chance and he fumbled - with a million lives - nice. He has been pulling funds from every where he can get away with to support his agenda in Iraq in the hopes something like this wouldn't happen?sorry, the fumble was Gov Blanco who just couldn't stomach the thought of Bush getting any credit so she delayed requesting Fed assisstance even though Bush said they were ready and the situation was deteriorating. (ref provided in prior post)

I am quite familiar with the Constitutioin of the United States and how government works...but nice bs. Really? Care to support that claim by actually use a few documented facts to back up all your claims?


Are we havin' fun yet?? :dance:

[jgleason]

This is like watching ping pong or tennis. :shake:

Maybe when you guys are done arguing about who was to blame you could make sure you've donated to helping the people down there get their lives back in order. Donate thread (http://johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=27044)

[sandbagger]

Maybe when you guys are done arguing about who was to blame you could make sure you've donated to helping the people down there get their lives back in order. Donate thread (http://johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=27044)
I much prefer to fix the problem rather than the blame, but with certain elements so focused on their hatred for George W Bush, that is going to be difficult. were Bush and the Feds flawless in their response? of course not, but let's keep it in perspective. :)

my wife and I are headed out to 2nd day of Red Cross "fast track" training today as prep to be deployed in one of the shelter areas somewhere around the hurricane area. does that qualify as a "donation?" :D ;)

[prescottrecorder]

Thanks Sandbagger :) Although I'm of the opinion that these political rant threads don't accomplish anything, I'm appreciative of your reasoned responses and your planned participation in the solution. :bow:

Let's just hope that something can be learned from this disaster other than that we are much better at hindsight than planning.

[John Bridge]

Welcome aboard, Paul. :)

I disagree with you. I think these threads are extremely valuable. They may not right the wrongs of the world, but they give everyone who wants to take it a podium. It's like getting up on a soap box outdoors in a public area. You can be heard. :)

Would that be the Prescott, AZ, Recorder?

On the Constitution, the nation was set up on the idea of "federalism," meaning each echelon of government has its place and its area of authority. Unfortunately, that idea went out the window in the Reconstruction days, and it was completely doused with the acceptance of the New Deal. Nowadays, everything is run from the top down. It's unconstitutional, but that's how it is.

When a federal government can (unconstitutionally) levy excessive taxes from individuals to be used to later blackmail governments in the states those individiuals live in, well, you just no longer have "federalism." The section of the Constitution that should be quoted is the "Commerce Clause," wherein the Supreme Court has determined that the federal government can do just about anything it wants to.

[jgleason]

Hi sandbagger art,

Excellent that you can make the time available to give direct aid. :bow:

I much prefer to fix the problem rather than the blame, but with certain elements so focused on their hatred for George W Bush, that is going to be difficult. were Bush and the Feds flawless in their response? of course not, but let's keep it in perspective.

This pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter too. There are a lot of loonies out there, from both sides of the aisle. Unfortumately, the media tends to report on the extremes to hype events more than they should. It would be better if folks could have a more reasoned debate on actual substantive issues. :crazy:

[prescottrecorder]

Thanks John,

Good guess, but it's just that one of my recorders was made by Prescott.

[John Bridge]

Oh. ;)

[LadyGodiva]

John, does this 'soap box' include some good old-fashioned PMS rantings? :D

[sandbagger]

.....On the Constitution, the nation was set up on the idea of "federalism," meaning each echelon of government has its place and its area of authority. Unfortunately, that idea went out the window in the Reconstruction days, and it was completely doused with the acceptance of the New Deal. sigh..... :cry:

The section of the Constitution that should be quoted is the "Commerce Clause," wherein the Supreme Court has determined that the federal government can do just about anything it wants to. Wait a minute, JB may be on to something here. Seeing as how Katrina crossed at least 3 states (FL-LA-MS), wouldn't that qualify it as a form of "interstate commerce?" :bang: Maybe I should re-think some of my previous arguments, eh? ........ NOT! :tongue:

[Albert]

bagsander,

lets take a diffrent reproach. true we can all point fingurs but it dont git us nowhere. insted lets make a comparison. lets compare whut the gummint did one year ago in florida in response to hurricanes frances and charley in florida, and whut they done this year in response to katrina.

they cood ack reel quick in an erection year when the presidnets bruthere is guvnor, why coodnt they ackt so quick this year? it looks like they be sandbaggin. pleez pleez explain the discrepancee. see below. (doan git me wrong, im not a bush-basher -- as the cajun in the pirogue said to cnn yesterday -- i voted for the b@satard)

albert

===============

When their interests are at stake, they can be very efficient. Consider when Hurricane Charley hit Jeb Bush's state - a year earlier than Katrina - on the second weekend of August, 2004, just months before the elections. The White House website notes:

As of noon Monday [the day after the hurricane left], in response to Hurricane Frances, FEMA and other Federal response agencies have taken the following actions:

About one hundred trucks of water and 280 trucks of ice are present or will arrive in the Jacksonville staging area today.

900,000 Meals-Ready-to-Eat are on site in Jacksonville, ready to be distributed.

Over 7,000 cases of food (e.g., vegetables, fruits, cheese, ham, and turkey) are scheduled to arrive in Winter Haven today.

Disaster Medical Assistance Teams (DMAT) are on the ground and setting up comfort stations.

FEMA community relations personnel will coordinate with DMATs to assist victims. -

Urban Search and Rescue Teams are completing reconnaissance missions in coordination with state officials.

FEMA is coordinating with the Department of Energy and the state to ensure that necessary fuel supplies can be distributed throughout the state, with a special focus on hospitals and other emergency facilities that are running on generators.

The Army Corps of Engineers will soon begin its efforts to provide tarps to tens of thousands of owners of homes and buildings that have seen damage to their roofs.

The National Guard has called up 4,100 troops in Florida, as well as thousands in other nearby states to assist in the distribution of supplies and in preparation for any flooding.

The Departments of Health and Human Services, Veterans Affairs, and Defense together have organized 300 medical personnel to be on standby.

Medical personnel will begin deployment to Florida tomorrow.

FEMA is coordinating public information messages with Georgia, Tennessee, Alabama, and North Carolina so that evacuees from Florida can be informed when it is safe to return.

In addition to federal personnel already in place to respond to Hurricane Charley, 1,000 additional community relations personnel are being deployed to Atlanta for training and further assignment in Florida.

All of this aid was vitally important to Bush family political fortunes in the upcoming election of 2004. Disaster relief checks were in the mail within a week.

That, of course, was for a Republican State, with a Republican governor, the brother of the President. Republicans needed to act like they cared about governing, because they wanted people to vote for them three months later.

But now, with no election looming and with death stalking a Democratic State with a Democratic Governor unrelated to the President, [what is] Bush's call to action? "Send cash to the Red Cross." One of those "thousand points of light" non-governmental organizations his father told us about.

[jvcstone]

Damn That Albert sure is one smart dude. Bunch of us dumb Texans have been asking those very same questions. And, Mr. Sandman. Kinda of convienent to argue constitionality when it justifies one action, and totally ignore it when it comes to all those other actions.(patriot act comes to mind) Seems like the constitution has been "interpreted" to death---when just reading the words should be pretty definitive.
JVC

[Scooter]

The New York Times and LA Times had excellent articles on the timeline. No, I won't cut and paste, and I'll even forgo a link, but just one example:

Sparklets had 5 trucks of water, full of pallets of water, delivered to the site on Tuesday. FEMA would not allow them to pass without a "Tasker Number" (whatever that is. The Water sat there with drivers and trucks on the road side for 2 more days. Did you know that Greyhound had over 100 buses in the area, and FEMA would approve them going in for another 2 days?

Guys, this is really stupid.

And the blame, and I hate to say this, lies in part with the 9/11 Commission which suggested that Homeland Security take over FEMA. Prior to that, under Clinton, FEMA was a cabinet level post, with a huge amount of autonomy. Now, it is just a huge bloated over budget agency. And it takes days, instead of hours or minutes to make a decsion.

This is really wrong, and Congress needs to change FEMA. Bush needs to fire the head of Homeland Security. This is a beuacratic disaster of epic proportions.

I agree with Albert--I don't fault the mayor that much--her city was obliterated. But natural disasters which wipe out the majority of a state are far beyond the capability of local and state governments. We need the resources of the Federal Government--stockpiles of MRE's, boats, helocopters, water, and yes, buses. No State or City government has 100 helocopters or 500 boats or 20,000 MRE's. But the Feds do. Big government has its place in situations like this and that big government failed, horribly.

[smee]

Remember it was 6 days before anyone showed up. 6 days!

It's common knowledge that 72 hours is the limit - you miss that window and people start losing it, or dying - in this case both and on a huge scale. FEMA should have already been there when the storm hit - at least in an assessment role if any - had they been in place they then could have been directing once the real disaster ( the water ) hit. That would be before FEMA was run by a guy who doesn't know his rear from a hole in the ground.

Come on people - it's disgusting, flagrant negligence. And bag-0-sand can cite the constitution all day long - it won't change that truth.

It's indefensible.

FEMA biffed on a mortal level - who's the bid daddy of FEMA? FEMA was downgraded so it's budget could be downgraded - and subsequently allocated to foster the war in Iraq. And as I mentioned prior - other 'budgets' have been so pilfered all over the country to fund the war effort. It's a very simple scenario and it sure shines a light on the shady style things are being handled "At the Federal Level".

Cheney - the snake in the grass of leadership if there ever was one.
Rove - Rasputin
Conde - Silly puddy - good brains gone bad
Bush - chuckie

Keep your eye on Colin Powell - he left because he knows exactly how this current leadership is running our country. And he was unable to get in the snake pit.

[Scooter]

Please don't criticize Dick Cheney--for the record--and this is the God's honest truth--he cut short his vacation within hours of the hurricane and took care of business. He was Johnny-on the Spot, unlike his boss, the Shrub.

Dick Chenney was at work within hours of the hurricane to meke sure that Haliburton got the rebuilding contract. One that was done, he could relax.

[sandbagger]

OK, let's try again. First, our friend Albert sayslets take a diffrent reproach. true we can all point fingurs but it dont git us nowhere. insted lets make a comparison. lets compare whut the gummint did one year ago in florida in response to hurricanes frances and charley in florida, and whut they done this year in response to katrina.and the next thing he does is start pointing fingers at the Feds (and the Bush family) without one little mention of the state or local folks. that's a strange way to "take a diffrent reproach." :complain:

but that's OK, we can deal with it. Actually, I'll let a couple of journalists deal with it. First, from the Pittsburgh Post-gazette (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05254/568876.stm) a comparison of the responses Albert thinks were so fast to the Katrina response. Even before you take into account how the magnitude of the Katrina devastation dwarfs any of those mentioned, the FEDERAL response to Katrina was faster. It was the state and local responses after Katrina that were so pathetic. Once again we are confusing (conveniently in many cases) the differences in responsibility of the local, state, and federal agencies. And a former military logistics officer puts it in perspective: "We do not yet have teleporter or replicator technology like you saw on 'Star Trek' in college between hookah hits and waiting to pick up your worthless communications degree while the grown-ups actually engaged in the recovery effort were studying engineering.

"The United States military can wipe out the Taliban and the Iraqi Republican Guard far more swiftly than they can bring 3 million Swanson dinners to an underwater city through an area the size of Great Britain which has no power, no working ports or airports, and a devastated and impassable road network.

"You cannot speed recovery and relief efforts up by prepositioning assets (in the affected areas) since the assets are endangered by the very storm which destroyed the region." Remember, nowhere in Florida was there flooding of this magnitude.

I'm also glad you folks brought up Florida- after all, who knows hurricanes better than those folks, eh? So when a couple of Florida journalists write a piece on hurricane planning, do ya think they might actually know something about it? From the Palm Beach (not exactly Bush country) Post (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/state/content/state/epaper/2005/09/10/m1a_response_0910.html) this pretty good description of how Florida communities plan and prepare for hurricanes. What's interesting is what is NOT in the article - much of anything about how the Feds are supposed to come to their rescue. Floridians realize that survival - and recovery - starts at the local level. :nod:

and here's one I hadn't seen. Did you know that once Katrina veered off Florida, a bunch of these folks in Florida offered to help the ones in it's new path (LA, MS) with preparIng:"Gov. Jeb Bush, the head of Florida AHCA and the head of Florida wildlife (which is responsible for all search and rescue) all said they made offers of aid to Mississippi and Louisiana the day before Katrina hit but were rebuffed. After the storm, they said they've had to not only help provide people to those states but also have had to develop search and rescue plans for them. "They were completely unprepared -- as bad off as we were before Andrew," one Florida official said."But probably the biggest difference is here:"One of the biggest differences between how Florida and other states handle natural disasters lies in the degree of cooperation between cities, counties and the state. " but some folks like smee still think the federal govmint isn't big enoughFEMA was downgraded so it's budget could be downgraded and just who is responsible for that? Why, I do believe Scooter hits it on the headAnd the blame, and I hate to say this, lies in part with the 9/11 Commission which suggested that Homeland Security take over FEMA. Prior to that, under Clinton, FEMA was a cabinet level post, with a huge amount of autonomy. Now, it is just a huge bloated over budget agency. And it takes days, instead of hours or minutes to make a decsion.yepper - ya suppose all those Congresspeople makin' so much noise might be tryin' to divert attention from their own sorry behinds? :mad:

[sdaniels7114]

The only dumb quote I can think of is the idea that we should just abandon the whole city of New Orleans. I'm not talking about getting the people out of course, I'm talking about the guys that say we shouldn't rebuild. It may be tough, but if we can cut a hole in Central America to make a canal, I'm sure we can greatly reduce the damage another big Hurricaine would do to NO.

[r8ingbull]

What about personal responsibility? Things like this are a part of life. Why blame anyone but yourself? Let's think about this:

I live right next to the ocean.
I live 12 feet BELOW sea level.
I expect a 40' wide dirt hill to protect me from the ocean.
I know a hurricane is coming and it has a huge storm surge.
I decided not to leave.
I decided not to prepare with food, water, gas.....
After the storm I decided to wait for the government to help.


So how is that someone elses fault?

If I dug a hole in my backyard to sleep in, and drowned when it rained, I would be a dipshit. Not a victim.

I don't know about you guys, but my personal safety is my business, if government can help, great. But I am still not standing around, risking my life and safety on the abilty of the government. NO WAY!

[sandbagger]

What about personal responsibility? ........I don't know about you guys, but my personal safety is my business, if government can help, great. But I am still not standing around, risking my life and safety on the abilty of the government. NO WAY!
SHA-ZAAM!! Couldn't have summed it up any better. :bow:

It was that kind of thinking that made this country the great nation that it is- going from 13 piddly little colonies to the most powerful, prosperous, and benevolent nation on earth in a tad over 200 yrs. :shades:

sadly, it's the kind of thinking that the New Deal mentality has been attacking and undermining for the last 60+. :crap:

[Scooter]

Certainly the destitute, desparate, unemployed and poor people should and have taken responsibility for their own misfortune. I don't think anyone seriously argues that they should have been escorted out of the town to the Four Seasons by a fleet of Rolls Royce's limos. Indeed, under FEMA rules, the local government, such as it is, must be self sufficient for 24-48 hours, because thats how long it takes for FEMA to get there.

As previously posted FEMA took 6 friggin days to rescue these people. Buses, Food, and Water were held for days up by bueracrats. I think the death toll could have been cut in half had FEMA lived up to their own regs that help would arrive in 24-48 hours. So you are really missing the point of one of the posters.

On the other hand if your point is that personal responsibility trumps all government aid, and there should be no FEMA, no temporary housing, no food, no water, no rebuilding, no nothing--every man for himself--well then, we do have a serious disagreement.

I do believe that there is a place for big government and a safety net for victims of natural disasters and terrorism under FEMA, now Homeland Security. And I think that is a proposition that most Americans would agree upon.

[smee]

nice. Tell that to the relatives of the 45 people they found dead in a hospital.

I wonder just how lightning fast you'd change your arrogant, limited attitude if it was you lying in a hospital bed unable to move.


such simplistic superficial declarations are exactly that and it says more about you than any of those people that need help.

[r8ingbull]

On the other hand if your point is that personal responsibility trumps all government aid, and there should be no FEMA, no temporary housing, no food, no water, no rebuilding, no nothing--every man for himself--well then, we do have a serious disagreement.

I don't think it needs to be every man for himself. I am just sick of hearing about the governments responsibility to help. I understand a need for FEMA, and Fire Departments, and other emergency assistance, but I still won't bet my life on one.

Don't you think anyone living in New Orleans had plenty of warning about stuff like this. I've known about it for years and don't even live there. Where are peoples emergency stocks of food and water. Where is the inititive to have your own disaster plan? I don't even live in an area that many would associate with natural disasters, but I have a good supply of canned foods, water, and emergency goods available in my home at all times. If you live in an area prone to disasterous floods and your emergency plan is to go into the attic, wouldn't you think an axe, some canned fruits, beans, water, etc, would be ready in the attic?

If your house is burning down is it your responsibility to get out alive, or the Fire Departments responsibility to rescue you?

[r8ingbull]

I wonder just how lightning fast you'd change your arrogant, limited attitude if it was you lying in a hospital bed unable to move.

My goal in life isn't to hit a home run and run around the bases clean. I hope to make it around the bases and slide into death abused, dirty, and with a thoroughly used up body. When it's my time, it's time.

I've been that guy laying in a hospital bed unable to move. The thought that the government should have protected me, never even came through my mind. If I had been layed up with a hurricane coming I would have been picked up by family/friends and taken somewhere safe. I have NO DOUBTS about it. Even if one of my brothers had to hijack an ambulance, I am sure one of them would have been there for me.

The only arrogant thing is saying that people are unable to help themselves.

[smee]

Well, you're lucky you have a loving capable family.

Some people aren't that lucky. and it may not be pleasant, but some cannot take care of themselves.

mentally ill people,
aged and infirm, with no family
babies - there were quite a few babies - premature babies in incubators, babies born that were in hospital and their mothers unavailable

come on.

[jvcstone]

[QUOTE=r8ingbull] I don't even live in an area that many would associate with natural disasters, but I have a good supply of canned foods, water, and emergency goods available in my home at all times. If you live in an area prone to disasterous floods and your emergency plan is to go into the attic, wouldn't you think an axe, some canned fruits, beans, water, etc, would be ready in the attic?

[QUOTE]

That's nice Bull, and in an ideal world it would be true for everyone. But you fail to consider that those people effected the most were those with the least means available to do just that. Many did not leave prior to the storm because they simple had no means of leaving. It might be beyond your comprehension that not every one can jump into the family car and drive a couple of hundred miles. And then what do you do when you do leave, but have no means of getting a place to stay. These were not people with a wallet full of credit cards. And since most of those left behind are eaking out marginal livings providing service for the entertainment industry, there is no such thing as extra cans of fruit, beans etc. Hell, a lot of these people are lucky to eat one meal a day. Nice to sit off on a cloud somewhere and issue judgements, but if you have never experienced life at that level, you should come down off of that cloud and do it for a few months. (if you could even survive that long) I think you would be fiddling a different tune then.
JVC

[sandbagger]

...I don't think anyone seriously argues that they should have been escorted out of the town to the Four Seasons by a fleet of Rolls Royce's limos. Maybe not a Rolls, but one account said the Mayor didn't think the yellow school busses were good enough and demanded "Greyhound busses from all over the country." It has been estimated that those school busses could have moved close to 70,000 people 200 miles if they had just been called into action when they initially start calling for evacuation. :uhh:

As previously posted FEMA took 6 friggin days to rescue these people. FEMA doesn't rescue anyone. FEMA has a total staff of about 2500 people. FEMA coordinates. That's a very important distinction. :nod:

Buses, Food, and Water were held for days up by bueracrats. I think the death toll could have been cut in half had FEMA lived up to their own regs that help would arrive in 24-48 hours. So you are really missing the point of one of the posters. not missing anything. What is missed is that FEMA's regs say 24-48 hrs after FEMA is invited by local authorities! Look, I'm not saying it's right by any means. But firing the head of FEMA (he resigned) doesn't help us understand why the system failed. and btw, the Red Cross - which had those trucks of water and other aid outside the SuperDome - is in the same boat. But it was the STATE EMA that refused to allow the Red Cross entry.

On the other hand if your point is that personal responsibility trumps all government aid, and there should be no FEMA, no temporary housing, no food, no water, no rebuilding, no nothing--every man for himself--well then, we do have a serious disagreement.
no disagreement at all. ;) Two components are key here, one you made quite nicely:
Personal responsibility includes understanding precisely what government (at all levels) can - and expecially can't - do for us in these situations, and We have to accept that part of the personal responsibility includes putting good people in office, and getting involved if necessary.

speaking of the latter, looks like there's an opening coming in NO. Mayor Nagin has apparently taken up residence in Dallas. :yeah:

[Scooter]

"I don't think it needs to be every man for himself. I am just sick of hearing about the governments responsibility to help."

Bush, in a prepared press release today, took personal responsibilty for the government's failures in rescuing people. I didn't hear him say that the poor hudled masses, the folks in hospitals, and the destitute need to buck up and take responsibility. So at least in the eyes of your hero, the proposition that the lack of self rescue was the fault of those miserable slobs appears to be at a dead end. Nice try. The government IS responsible to help people. This guilty plea by Bush actually ought to end a lot the debate, that the government did screw up. Now we need to fix it for the next time, and there will be a next time.

What is shocking, and I do mean shocking, is that for the first time in five years Bush has admitted making a mistake. This has never been done before. I think Hell just froze over

[r8ingbull]

Nice to sit off on a cloud somewhere and issue judgements, but if you have never experienced life at that level, you should come down off of that cloud and do it for a few months. (if you could even survive that long) I think you would be fiddling a different tune then.

Summer of 1999 I spent 3.5 months riding my bike across the USA on less than $400. How many people do you suppose can't generate $400 of income in 3.5 months? In Michigan working 8 hours a day you would only have to find five pop cans an hour to do that.

I understand that there was old and infirm and young, but that was not the basis of this problem, it was the massive numbers of full health people waiting for government assistance.

Let's not act like these people are unable to help themselves.

Used Bike $5
Used Backpack $1.50
12 Packets Ramen Noodles $1.20
Iodine Tablets $2.50
Waterbottle $1.19

Making it from New Orleans to Baton Rouge: PRICELESS (actually $11.39)

In the six days it took the feds to get there you could have ridden to Atlanta.


Would you mind posting your sources about "most people left behind" and there occupation/income levels? I think there are as many stubborn rich people as poor people.

Oh yeah, I've seen Hell freeze over. Hell, Michigan that is.

[sandbagger]

just so we understand what the President did - and did not - say, here is the key section of his statement: "Katrina exposed serious problems in our response capability at all levels of government," Bush said at joint White House news conference with the president of Iraq.
"To the extent the federal government didn't fully do its job right, I take responsibility," Bush said.The last part is worth repeating: "To the extent the federal government didn't fully do its job right, I take responsibility"

He did not accept FULL responsible for the debacle by any means.
He is NOT accepting responsibility for the failures of the state and local authorities (nor should he). :shake:

But don't hold your breath waiting for something similar from Nagin or Blanco (if you could find either one). :laugh2:

[sandbagger]

this from the Wall Street Journal, which just did an extensive report on the levees, including the story about the runaway barge that breeched one recently upgraded section. (ignored by the media) But this takes the cake: Vital repairs for which a whopping $600 million had been appropriated by the federal government were stopped after residents of the Ninth Ward complained about the noise created by the repair project and sued to halt it. ya gotta love it. :bang:

[jvcstone]

Summer of 1999 I spent 3.5 months riding my bike across the USA on less than $400. .


Talk about comparing candied apples with rotten lemons. How in gods name can you think that your summer adventure was anything like the lives these people live 365 days a year. Why don't you try living in a tent for 18 months, with your only source of income being those pop bottles you pick up. Then follow that up with a year or so in a house with no plumbing, running water, insulation or heat other than a wood burning stove, and during a good week bringing home at best 150.00 - 200.00 to support yourself, plus the wife and kids. Trust me, I know what it is like to live like that, not by choice, but by circumstances trumping dreams.
Sure there were probably a few stubborn rich folks, but I sure didn't see very many in all the footage from the superdome and convention center, and those here and in houston and dallas sure don't meet that discription.

A third of New orleans population lives below the poverty level, and it's not because they don't work. Sand bagger mentioned that even fast food joints start folks at 9 bucks and hour (around here it closer to 6.50-7.00). Most of them cut you off at 38 hours so they don't have to pay over time, and benefits are virtually non existant. So even 40 hours a week at 9 bucks works out to around 300.00 - 325.00 take home. Here a trashed out apartment goes for 700.00 to 800.00 per month with first and last months rent due at move in. Thats if you pass the credit check. Then there is about 200.00 bucks worth of utility deposits so you can actually live there, and about that every month in bills. So you work two jobs just to stay afloat because your wife needs to stay with the kids (100.00 week day care per kid is out of reach), and because you are economically on the margin, you get to pay twice as much in auto insurance rates (If you even have a car) than that guy with his lexus on the other side of the tracks, and you have no medical or dental on the kids. Heaven forbid that you get sick, or hurt (no aflac here)-- cause you're only one rung above the street. And you stay at that entry level pay because if you start making noise for more money. you,re out the door. It really disgusts me that in the "greatest" country in the world, millions of people live in those conditions, not by choice, but because of circumstances ( usually of birth), and yes I believe the government IS responsible for that through economic policies that foster a sort of feudal lord-serf ( the old I owe my soul to the company store mentality) system that profits from keeping the down trodden down.

Damn, you relly pulled my chain with that one : :uhh:
JVC

[smee]

The president "took responsibility" ( ha ha ha) because his ratings are at an all time low. He's on damage control BIG TIME. Wonder why? You think he's going to present an argument like yours when he addresses the nation.

Fat chance.

Something like 56% in the most recent poll coming in on the I'm not happy side - that's a lot of "liberals" huh?

For the love of Pete - it's amazing how inane your arguments are.

comparing a bike ride with $400 to the people in the disaster zone not helping themselves - oh boy. A little like when the plane flew near the White House and they had Cheney in the bunker with Laura Bush in an instant - all the while George was off tooling around on his bicycle and didn't get a reality check about the incident until 45 minutes after it happened.

all's I can say is Mayday.

[r8ingbull]

comparing a bike ride with $400 to the people in the disaster zone not helping themselves - oh boy.

Lets say your house and city were destroyed. What would you do? The main reason I brought up the bike was because those people could have hopped on a bike a pedaled someplace else and start over. It's all about choices. You can make a decision to sit and suffer or help yourself.

give me six days and I could have walked to BAton Rouge

[flatfloor]

John, I don't know what programs are available in N.O. but in NY there are programs that pay for childcare, there is free medical insurance for children and there are are clinics for adults. Going rate at K-Mart or fast food is $8.00 no bennies no OT. There are programs that pay tuition if you don't mind putting in the effort to improve yourself.

Even so, we still have the same old, same old socio-economic problems.

[smee]

You know, I believe there was a 6 year old boy walking along a highway with 5 or 6 kids younger than him, as young as a year - just that boy and those kids - alone. Life has a will to survive that transcends station, race, everything.

Those people were innundated with over 6 ft of water - UNEXPECTED WATER - in less than 30 minutes and it continued to rise? Oh and let's not forget that before that there were 160 mile an hour winds blowing yacht size trajectories...try riding your bike in that, superstar.

I don't know, 30 minutes. Does that seem like some astronomical amount of time while you're floating up toward your ceiling that you can plan your meals for the next 10 days and neatly pack them up in neat little tuperware containers and large ziplock bags. I mean, while you're at it - how about pack your diaper bag too, get the oxygen tank ready to go for Gramma and grap some extra tp and be sure to lock up.

Huh. How about basic survival. Do you know what happens to your body when you are under what's called an adrenaline dump? Which is exactly what's happening when you're trying not to die. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but you think you'd have gotten enough cans of baked beans and not forgotten your can opener to hold you for 6 days under those circumstances after you thought of your kids, your wife and your parents?

...and by the way so many people DID walk, swim and sometimes with dead family members in tow they did exactly what your so arrogantly declaring they should do - Help themselves. How do you think they got to the dome - by magic? Yeah, so they save themselves, as best they can under dire and extreme circumstances....just to spend 6 days in unimagined squalor before getting a drop of water.

Are you kidding me? Do you really think you actually have a point? I think this imcomprehensable disaster is a little bigger than making the point that hey they should have saved themselves.

Go to any shelter there and find someone and ask them hey - why didn't you plan ahead, why didn't you buy a bike and backpack dude?

please

[Scooter]

In the six days it took the feds to get there you could have ridden to Atlanta.

Most of the bridges were out, there was anywhere from 4-15 feet of water. How, pray tell, do you ride a bike in 5-15 feet of water? And they had about 24 hours notice of the mandatory evacuation. The reports I heard were that many were turned away trying to leave the city on Sunday and Monday.

Would you have left your pets? your photos? Your wife? Your kids? Do you think there was any potable water on Sunday anywhere in New Orleans? Did any or all of them have bicycles?

Your post is fine in a vacuum, but honestly ignores the realities of the situation. No one in the adminstration is taking up that battle cry of personal responsibility. So your point is really out, way out, of the mainstream.

Again, I repeat, the issue is not what happened in the 24 hours that the citizenry had to evacuate, but what the Feds did after the storm hit. And what they did was.... well....nothing. I will guaranty that there are more firings in the Administration on this one. They just plain blew it.

I can just see the analogy--those morons in the WTC. I routinely do stair master for hours--I could have walked DOWN the stairs in 20 minutes. Its their own darn fault for being so stupid. Is that where this point leads us? How insensitive.

[r8ingbull]

Most of the bridges were out, there was anywhere from 4-15 feet of water. How, pray tell, do you ride a bike in 5-15 feet of water?

The same way the buses got there. Did the buses swim?

I'm not saying it isn't a terrible thing what happened, or even that the feds were on top of the ball game. And I for sure don't support ole w in washington.

All I am saying is that those people had options and they should bear at a minimum of some responsibility. It may not be PC to say it, but it's true.

[smee]

O K

I must be talking to Paul Bunyon? Maybe where you come from they make bikes 14 feet tall...the rest of us however, you know here in whoville...we realize that buses are much bigger than our bikes.

PC ain't got nothing to do with it. Phew, UN BElievable...

[rstreet]

Just think in 2008 you get a chance to vote in another liberal just like yourselves. That way they can raise taxes to an alltime high, institue more goverment controlled programs and take care of all the poor homeless people. Thats just what we need more welfare to take of the people that cant or wont take care of themselves, tell them it's ok the goverment will take care of you.

Give me a friggin break. These people lived below sea level they knew that there was a chance of a flood. GET OUT!!! Move or do something.

What are you going to do when a major earthquake hits. Blame the goverment that that didnt stop it ahead of time??

[smee]

I'm a republican. So, that's a moot point.

I don't give a flying bleep what the party is if the person can lead, do a good job at getting this country in order and taking care of what's good for America and it's future.

What's Bush done? Let's see - The deficit has practicaly tripled, GAS has tripled, for a guy with Oil connections you'd think he could at least get a hold of that problem. Oh, yes, the tax cuts - yeah, the $300 or so is getting eaten up in buying gas at this piont, so not too much kudos there either.

and yes, if we had a catastrophy of 'biblical proportions' in California or anywhere and they lagged - which is putting it nicely - over 6 days before bothering to lift a finger. You better believe it - I'd be asking the same questions being asked now.

This isn't a village we're talking about - it's 1,000,000 displaced people, A MILLION People, billions of dollars and well, it happened because of Federal neglect. Aint' no hiding from that...as Bush is going to admit in his address.

It's tough realizing that the guy you voted for is a complete ZERO and the people behind him corrupt. It's embarrassing. But it's true.

If you were one of those people sitting in a shelter being told you can't even go home for four months, I bet you'd be singing a different tune.

[r8ingbull]

This isn't a village we're talking about - it's 1,000,000 displaced people, A MILLION People, billions of dollars and well, it happened because of Federal neglect.

Did you read that before you typed it? What happened because of federal neglect? A Hurricane? People built houses below sea level? What the heck are you talking about?

So if it was a village of 5,000 it would be no big deal? But because a million people are stupid enough to live BELOW SEA LEVEL in a hurricane area, that's is somehow the feds fault?

I think we should buy out the citizens of new orleans and leave the place as an underwater nature preserve.

[Shaughnn]

Say, Bull, where do *you* live? Why did you choose to live there?
Just askin', :)
Shaughnn

[jgleason]

This would be a lot more useful if people spoke rationally about the issues instead of letting fly with all the rhetoric.

I'm not into blaming this party or that person. I do have a few questions that I wouldn't mind having answers to....


1. IF everybody knew the levees were built to withstand a Cat3 hurricane and were in need of additional work then why, in the face of an approaching Cat5 hurricane, wasn't a mandatory evacuation called for earlier?

2. KNOWING that a large portion of the population of NO was without transportation, WHY weren't all of the city's assets (Mass transit buses, school buses, etc.) mobilized to evacuate the citizenry?

3. WHY were large portions of the federal money that was appropriated, even if it wasn't enough, put into projects that had nothing to do with improving the levee system in NO?

I'm sorry, I'm not buying that it is entirely Bush's fault. I think there is plenty of blame to go around. Personally, I'd start with the local and state officials that were apparently sorely lacking in getting things done. Next on my list would be both houses of Congresses, they are the ones that appropriate the money. They can easily ignore any President's budget and appropriate funds as they see fit. Instead of wasting money on all the damn pork projects (yes I'm including the 400 million for a couple of bridges to nowhere in Alaska) it sure would be nice if they thought about what was best for the country rather than their own relelection campaigns.

[r8ingbull]

Michigan.

Why, I like the weather, the people, and the atmosphere. I especially love having four seasons.

[rstreet]

What's Bush done?

Let's see, my mortgage rate is 3% lower than it was by Clinton was in office, that nice little reduction is saving me 50K. 50K right in my pocket.

GAS has tripled, for a guy with Oil connections you'd think he could at least get a hold of that problem.

What about the world (China) demand for fuel? In my line of business this has caused most cost increases than anything. We have seen anti freeze triple in the last 6 months. Why - gylcol shortage, its going to China for the textile industry.

http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=795013

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/general/2004-06-16-insight_x.htm

http://www.cfr.org/publication.html?id=7019

Oh, yes, the tax cuts - yeah

I've saved over 3K the last 2 years on my tax return, soley to Bush's tax plan.


It's tough realizing that the guy you voted for is a complete ZERO and the people behind him corrupt. It's embarrassing. But it's true.

I dont agree, buts thats my right.

If you were one of those people sitting in a shelter being told you can't even go home for four months, I bet you'd be singing a different tune.

No, I'd get up off my a$$ and do something. Last time I looked there were still 50 states in the USA. Somebody's hiring somewhere.

[Scooter]

Some idiots in Laguna Beach live right on a mud slide. Do I feel sorry for them when the hillside slips away destroying their multi-million dollar homes? Yeah, sort of. Do I think the Federal govenment should give them millions to rebuild on this same hillside? No way. Do I think once the house slid down the hill, the government should have done everything possible to rescue them? Absolutely. And if they left these stupid poor souls at the bottom of a ravine without food or water for 6 days while debating "Tasker Numbers", yes I would criticize the government.

The government has a duty to rescue people--bueracratic stupidity has no place in search and rescue situations, and we ought not to discriminate between the rich and the poor or black or the white, East Coast or West. They are Americans and all pay taxes and all have wives, kids, pets, and dreams just like you and me. Just rescue them.

The same could be said for the morons that lived in San Diego in mountainous woods--very dangerous stuff, with the fires and all. Or the idiots in Southern Florida--Man-O-Man, hurricanes go through there every couple years. Or Kansas where I lived for a couple years, right in Tornado Alley. Or Iowa when in flooded in 1990.

I really can't understand where your hate of the American people comes from to extent that you want to impose self rescue on our citizens. Of course, you probably want to spend millions to rebuild Iraq, right? Well of course, thats different, thats our war on terrorism.

[Shaughnn]

Bull,
Both sides of my family are from Michigan. Mom graduated from a one-room schoolhouse outside of Ionia and Dad's family lived in Dearborn Heights while Nonno worked as a brickmason and steamfitter for Mr. Ford. Damn cold place at times. Quite a few mosquitoes sometimes too. A few tornadoes every season and some pretty wicked lightnig shows when they're in season also. Not many jobs, though and crime's pretty bad near the cities if you have to go there to work.
Why do you stay?
Shaughnn

[sandbagger]

Michigan.

...... I especially love having four seasons. OH, you mean
early winter
mid winter
late winter and
summer?
:D :D (spent the Clinton era in Detroit suburbs.)

grew up in Missouri - now that's 4 seasons. :yeah:

[sandbagger]

I'm a republican. So, that's a moot point.
.....
and Hillary's a conservative - just look at her new jihad against video games. :rofl: :rofl:

[r8ingbull]

Bull,
Both sides of my family are from Michigan. Mom graduated from a one-room schoolhouse outside of Ionia and Dad's family lived in Dearborn Heights while Nonno worked as a brickmason and steamfitter for Mr. Ford. Damn cold place at times. Quite a few mosquitoes sometimes too. A few tornadoes every season and some pretty wicked lightnig shows when they're in season also. Not many jobs, though and crime's pretty bad near the cities if you have to go there to work.
Why do you stay?
Shaughnn

I stay because I like it here. You have to find the right part as far as crime, jobs and especially those damn bugs go. Find the right part and you can leave the doors open and unlocked on the house, anyone willing to work can make $35K and the bird sized bugs stay more to the north.

I like the cold and the lightning. It's all manageable with some prep and planning.

[r8ingbull]

"...laud the accurate forecasts but wonder why those dire predictions were not issued earlier. They also argue that residents were bombarded with too much information from several sources."


OK I think I found the dumbest quote yet.

[Scooter]

Marty Bahamonde, public affairs officer for FEMA trying to get federal aid for New Orleans while Bahamonde was stuck in New Orleans. He tried to get a hold of Michael Brown, and had dificulty getting a hold of Brown because Brown was in a luxery holtel in Baton Rouge trying to eat dinner::

From Sharon Worthy, his Press Secretary this email:

"...It is very important time is allowed for Mr. Brown to eat dinner, ...as restaurants are getting busy..."

Bahamonde emails back:

"OH MY GOD!!!!! No won't go any further, too easy of a target. Just tell her that I just ate an MRE and crapped in the hallway of the Superdome long with 30,000 other close friends so I understand her concern about busy restaurants. Maybe tonight I will have time to move my pebbles on the parking garage so they don't stab me in the back while I try to sleep."

Meanwhile Michael Brown is still on the Administration payroll...