Americans as refugees

[LadyGodiva]

I'm not trying to cause WWIII here, but I just called our local Red Cross office to find out what Oklahoma is doing for the people in N.O. The lady said that we already have "500 refugees" that came in from N.O. and we're hoping to take in "5,000 more refugees". So, for those who have the mindset that 'refugees' come from other countries, you need to realise that your own have just joined the ranks. Americans are now refugees and that's sad, but now you know what it might feel like, or look like. Refugees are no longer ONLY from Cuba, Haiti, parts of Africa, Viet Nam, Yugoslavia or wherever they come from.

I don't mean this in a bitter way, but I get sick and tired of hearing remarks about Third World behaviour and 'refugees' while referring to the looting etc. I grew up in the TW which is now a developing nation with OIL and natural gas), so I take offense. I'm proud to have been a Third Worlder. I'm a better naturalised citizen than many 'born citizens' of this country because of my TW experiences.

Welcome to the real world :)

[Sponsored Links]

[tilesnake]

Hey! I can't help it, alls I know is that I was in a warm comfortable place when all of a sudden I was popped like a giant zit into the cold arms of some masked guy who then slapped my ass the cut a bloody tube goin into my gut, then they made me feed off these incredably desirable fun bags that I am now in constant search of!

Snake

[scott anthony]

Snake Snake Snake :)

[LadyGodiva]

Snake, you have a way with words :crazy:

[flatfloor]

Regular Hemingway he is. :)

[Tool Guy - Kg]

Sanke,
You should talk to John about getting publushed. :nod:

[tilesnake]

Maybe I should try a spell chek? czech? cheque? cheek?

[oma]

I don't believe refugee is actually the proper term for those who are being relocated from New Orleans. According to the dictionary I have, a refugee is someone who flees to find refuge from oppression or persecution. I haven't seen evidence of oppression or persecution from anyone except maybe the criminal elements who are killing, murdering, raping and other various illegal acts.

[LadyGodiva]

I don't believe refugee is actually the proper term for those who are being relocated from New Orleans. According to the dictionary I have, a refugee is someone who flees to find refuge from oppression or persecution. I haven't seen evidence of oppression or persecution from anyone except maybe the criminal elements who are killing, murdering, raping and other various illegal acts.


Well please speak to the American Red Cross about the status. That's what the lady in charge called the folks who have and will be moving into Oklahoma.

And I do agree with the definition from the dictionary.

[TangoCharlieOscar]

It's interesting if you look at the definition of "refuge" and then associate a refugee as "one who seeks refuge".
Refuge - 1."Shelter or protection from danger or distress". 2. "a place that provides shelter or protection".

So, people that evacuated from N.O. to Houston, Dallas, San Antonio are "refuguees". I live in a small suburb of Big D and we will have about 10,000 "visitors" before the weekend is out. They'll be staying in Dallas at Reunion arena, in Ft. Worth, and Arlington. I'm sure there will be a lot of churches on Sunday that will be 'adopting' some of these folks.
Some of them will decide to stay and we'll absorb them into our communities.
Is this a great country or what!

Tim
TcO

[sdaniels7114]

Sanke,
You should talk to John about getting publushed. :nod:


That made me laugh. What is it about puns that's so funny and so annoying?

[LadyGodiva]

These people are still being referred to as 'refugees' by the media and the Red Cross. Maybe you guys need to speak to these folks about the classification?
The world is looking on at how we are dealing and dealt initially with the destruction in N.O.


Five Days After Katrina, Refugees Waiting

By ROBERT TANNER, AP National Writer 48 minutes ago

NEW ORLEANS - A day after the National Guard finally arrived in force and began mass evacuations, thousands of people remained behind Saturday as fires belched ribbons of smoke over the city and sporadic gunfire echoed through the night.
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Thousands from the Superdome were taken to Texas on air-conditioned buses, but early Saturday the operation was halted — with as many as 5,000 in the stadium alone still to be evacuated five days after Hurricane Katrina made landfall.

Lt. Kevin Cowan of the state Office of Emergency Preparedness said the Superdome evacuations were stopped so that authorities could concentrate on getting an estimated 25,000 out of the New Orleans Convention Center.

"Their main mission now is the convention center," Cowan said.

Jennifer Washington was among thousands of frustrated evacuees who spent another morning at the convention center waiting for buses to come.

"At first they said 6:30 this morning, then they said 9, but there are no buses. They promised us buses," said Washington, 25, who has not been able to find her four children in the aftermath of the storm.

Helicopters were evacuating the sickest people from outside the convention center, and two of the city's most troubled hospitals were evacuated late Friday after desperate doctors spent days making tough choices about which patients got dwindling supplies of food, water and medicines.

"We're just trying to ease their pain, give them a little bit of dignity and get them out of here," said Lt. Col. Connie McNabb.

Saks Fifth Avenue billowed smoke Saturday, as did rows of warehouses on the east bank of the Mississippi River, where corrugated roofs buckled and tiny explosions erupted. Gunfire — almost two dozen shots — broke out in the French Quarter overnight.

As the warehouse district burned, Ron Seitzer, 61, washed his dirty laundry in the even dirtier waters of the Mississippi River and said he didn't know how much longer he could stay in the French Quarter without water or power, surrounded by looters.

"I've never even had a nightmare or a beautiful dream about this," he said as he watched the warehouses burn. "People are just not themselves."

On Friday,
President Bush took an aerial tour of the city and answered complaints about a sluggish government response by saying, "We're going to make it right." A crowd of nearly 20,000 stood outside the convention center as at least three dozen camouflage-green troop vehicles and supply trucks finally rolled through axle-deep floodwaters into what remained of New Orleans.

In what looked like a scene from a Third World country, some outside the convention center threw their arms heavenward and others hollered profanities as the trucks and hundreds of soldiers arrived in the punishing midday heat. Watching the caravan, Leschia Radford sang the praises of a higher power.

"Lord, I thank you for getting us out of here!" Radford shrieked.

National Guard Lt. Col. Jerry Crooks said troops had served more than 70,000 meals outside the convention center and had 130,000 more on hand.

But on Saturday, hope was overtaken by frustration as people continued to wait. A dead man lay on sidewalk under a blanket with a stream of blood running down the pavement toward the gutter. People said he died from violence.

"We're hurting out here, man. We got to get help. All we want is someone to feel our pain, that's all," said Tasheka Johnson, 24.

About a dozen people who headed down the street to look for food and water were turned back by a soldier who pulled a gun.

"We had to get something to eat. What are they doing pulling a gun?" said Richard Johnson, 28.

The soldiers' arrival-in-force came amid angry complaints from local officials that the federal government had bungled the relief effort and let people die in the streets for lack of food, water or medicine as the city was overtaken by looting, rape and arson.

"The people of our city are holding on by a thread," Mayor Ray Nagin warned in a statement to CNN. "Time has run out. Can we survive another night? And who can we depend on? Only God knows."

The president took a land and air tour of hard-hit areas of Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama, and admitted of the relief effort: "The results are not enough." Congress passed a $10.5 billion disaster aid package, and Bush quickly signed the measure.

The supplies and troops arrived. Flatbed trucks carried huge crates, pallets and bags of relief supplies, including Meals Ready to Eat. Soldiers sat in the backs of open-top trucks, their rifles pointing skyward.

Gov. Kathleen Blanco said the military presence helped calm a jittery city.

"We are seeing a show of force. It's putting confidence back in our hearts and in the minds of our people," Blanco said. "We're going to make it through."

Guard members carrying rifles also arrived at the Louisiana Superdome, where bedraggled people — many of them trapped there since the weekend — stretched around the perimeter of the building. Lt. Gen. Steven Blum, commander of the National Guard, said 7,000 Guard members would be in the city by Saturday.

All the victims in the Superdome were supposed to have been evacuated by dawn Saturday, but shortly after midnight, the buses stopped rolling without explanation. Between 2,000 and 5,000 people still in the stadium could be there until Sunday, according to the Texas Air National Guard.

Within minutes of the soldiers' arrival at the convention center, they set up six food and water lines. The crowd was for the most part orderly and grateful.

Diane Sylvester, 49, was the first person through the line. "Something is better than nothing," she said of her two bottles of water and pork rib meal. "I feel great to see the military here. I know I'm saved."

With Houston's Astrodome already full with 15,000 storm refugees, that city opened two more centers to accommodate an additional 10,000. Dallas and San Antonio also had agreed to take refugees.

One group of Katrina's victims lurched from one tragedy to another: A bus carrying evacuees from the Superdome overturned on a Louisiana highway, killing at least one person and injuring many others.

At the broken levee along Lake Pontchartrain that swamped nearly 80 percent of New Orleans, helicopters dropped 3,000-pound sandbags into the breach and pilings were being pounded into place to seal off the waters. Engineers also were developing a plan to create new breaches in the levees so that a combination of gravity and pumping and would drain the water out of the city, a process that could take weeks.

[LadyGodiva]

World stunned as US struggles with Katrina

By Andrew Gray 22 minutes ago

LONDON (Reuters) - The world has watched amazed as the planet's only superpower struggles with the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, with some saying the chaos has exposed flaws and deep divisions in American society.

World leaders and ordinary citizens have expressed sympathy with the people of the southern United States whose lives were devastated by the hurricane and the flooding that followed.

But many have also been shocked by the images of disorder beamed around the world -- looters roaming the debris-strewn streets and thousands of people gathered in New Orleans waiting for the authorities to provide food, water and other aid.

"Anarchy in the USA" declared Britain's best-selling newspaper The Sun.

"Apocalypse Now" headlined Germany's Handelsblatt daily.

“I am absolutely disgusted. After the tsunami our people, even the ones who lost everything, wanted to help the others who were suffering," said Sajeewa Chinthaka, 36, as he watched a cricket match in Colombo, Sri Lanka.

"Not a single tourist caught in the tsunami was mugged. Now with all this happening in the U.S. we can easily see where the civilized part of the world's population is."

Many newspapers highlighted criticism of local and state authorities and of President Bush. Some compared the sputtering relief effort with the massive amounts of money and resources poured into the war in Iraq.

"A modern metropolis sinking in water and into anarchy -- it is a really cruel spectacle for a champion of security like Bush," France's left-leaning Liberation newspaper said.

"(Al Qaeda leader Osama) bin Laden, nice and dry in his hideaway, must be killing himself laughing."

A female employee at a multinational firm in
"Maybe it was punishment for what it did to Iraq, which has a man-made disaster, not a natural disaster," said the woman, who did not want to be named as she has an American manager.

"A lot of the people I work with think this way. We spoke about it just the other day," she said.

Commentators noted the victims of the hurricane were overwhelmingly African Americans, too poor to flee the region as the hurricane loomed unlike some of their white neighbors.

New Orleans ranks fifth in the United States in terms of African American population and 67 percent of the city's residents are black.

"In one of the poorest states in the country, where black people earn half as much as white people, this has taken on a racial dimension," said a report in Britain's Guardian daily.

Luxembourg Foreign Minister Jean Asselborn, in a veiled criticism of U.S. political thought, said the disaster showed the need for a strong state that could help poor people.

"You see in this example that even in the 21st century you need the state, a good functioning state, and I hope that for all these people, these poor people, that the Americans will do their best," he told reporters at a European Union meeting in Newport, Wales.

David Fordham, 33, a hospital anesthetist speaking at a London underground rail station, said he had spent time in America and was not surprised the country had struggled to cope.

"Maybe they just thought they could sit it out and everything would be okay," he said.

"It's unbelievable though -- the TV images -- and your heart goes out to them."

[flatfloor]

Who, and why the hell should we care what the rest of the world thinks?
Very easy to pontificate and criticize from 3,000 miles.

If 67% of thepopulation is black, wouldn't it follow that they represent a major portion of those most grievously affected?

As for the media you quote all they are doing is spreading rumors and trying to make sound bites.

Have you seen Miss Piggy's post # 35 ?http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=304537#post304537

[John Bridge]

L.G. you're sucking up band width. Take muscle relaxer or something. ;)

[sandbagger]

more specifically, who cares what Reuters thinks? They've demonstrated an anti-American bias for years - why should we expect anything different? (though we certainly would have welcomed something different!) Weren't these guys also whining about the US response to the tsunami? And how US taxes aren't high enough, and so on and so on? :rolleyes:

I'm with you, flatfloor - a little simple math pretty much tells the story. :nod: That and the fact that a large portion of the population remaining through the storm did so willingly - refusing to heed the evacuation warnings. Not all, but lots. :noid:

I heard today that the affected area is the size of Great Britain. It is actually beyond the ordinary person's ability to comprehend -especially Europe. Remember, Europeans have virtually zero comprehension of the shear size of the US; heck, they don't even realize how big Texas is! :shake: And when they think levees of course they immediately think in terms of Holland.

But it's not the ignorance of the EU loudmouths that galls me - it's their disgusting arrogance. :fim: :tongue:

[LadyGodiva]

John, I'd rather have a muscle relaxer than be in denial. :D

[LadyGodiva]

So that I don't take up bandwith, read this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4210674.stm

For the ones who might choose not to read the BBC news link, here's an excerpt.

America the great with it's own Third World. Now isn't that something? ;)

Divided city

I should make a confession at this point: I have been to New Orleans on assignment three times in as many years, and I was smitten by the Big Easy, with its unique charms and temperament.

But behind the elegant intoxicants of the French Quarter, it was clearly a city grotesquely divided on several levels. It has twice the national average poverty rate.

The government approach to such deprivation looked more like thoughtless containment than anything else.

[Rob Z]

It's hard to put a lot of stock in what the sanctimonious turds in the EU have to say, considering all the sordid events that have arisen from the "enlightened Europeans" in the last century. After considering all the events that had their beginnings in Europe such as WW1, WW2, communism, naziism, socialism, various civil wars, ethnic strife, murderous anti-semitism and other large scale persecutions, nationalism, classism, welfarism, and the last vestiges of colonialism that has left many countries and peoples in less that favorable circumstances....well, I am not inclined to give much thought to the random shots from those folks. :mad:

[scott anthony]

I gotta inturupt the social science here and say what's on my mind here.
It's simple. The ones who will bitch the most are the ones who has learned how to feed off the system there whole life and they have taught there kin to do the same. Everything is given to them and when it comes time for crisis they expect to all stay the same. They will sit and wait for everything to come to them or rob the others who have been earning there keep. Whomever takes offense to this sorry but not really, it's just my thaught for a post that was created this.
I am not saying they are all like this but I'll bet my right arm most of them are.
And the media will continue to show the discruntled arrogance of welfare community because it's so much damn fun to watch. It has nothing to do with black or white, I live near the forest where we have so called white trash, they play the same damn game, and I think of them just the same.
On the brighter side I do love America and Kudo's for Casto stepping up with the medical support (simply amazing).

[flatfloor]

Well said Rob.

[LadyGodiva]

I gotta inturupt the social science here and say what's on my mind here.
It's simple. The ones who will bitch the most are the ones who has learned how to feed off the system there whole life and they have taught there kin to do the same. Everything is given to them and when it comes time for crisis they expect to all stay the same. They will sit and wait for everything to come to them or rob the others who have been earning there keep. Whomever takes offense to this sorry but not really, it's just my thaught for a post that was created this.
I am not saying they are all like this but I'll bet my right arm most of them are.
And the media will continue to show the discruntled arrogance of welfare community because it's so much damn fun to watch. It has nothing to do with black or white, I live near the forest where we have so called white trash, they play the same damn game, and I think of them just the same.
On the brighter side I do love America and Kudo's for Casto stepping up with the medical support (simply amazing).


Okay, I'll accept this. Makes sense if you can see that the mentality some refer to also occurs in other races as well :)

I'd be surprised if the US accepts Castro's offer.

[jd77]

Okay, I'll accept this. Makes sense if you can see that the mentality some refer to also occurs in other races as well :)



There may be hope for you yet LG :yipee: :yipee:

Good post Scott (and Rob) :)

[oma]

So why should I talke to the lady in OKC about what she calls evacuees from New Orleans. I couldn't care less what she calls them. You seem to be the one who is upset about the issue. Refugee, evacuee, whatever, it doesn't really get me upset.

[LadyGodiva]

I know it hurts and is embarrassing to see Americans being airlifted and labelled 'refugees' but it will happen again, and we won't be quite as shocked next time.

I see this country becoming closer to what other countries are like in the future. That's not a bad thing. Maybe the younger generation will have a different attitude towards the world. We can only hope.

Hey, besides Pearl Harbour, I don't think this country has ever been invaded and bombed before 9/11 has it? Now we know what it feels like to be invaded as we invade others.

Perhaps we'll get off the 'high and mighty' seat and not continue with the ethno-centric behavior i.e. we're the best? How can we be when we have our own "Americans" living in such poverty in this mighty country?

Have a great weekend. I do hate hearing folks saying the news looks more like something ut of Africa or Haiti...just shows the mindset hasn't changed that much from 30-40 years ago. Very sad indeed. But there is still hope for the future. I've been around younger Americans and many of them don't think they same way :)

[Westie]

Hey, besides Pearl Harbour, I don't think this country has ever been invaded and bombed before 9/11 has it? Now we know what it feels like to be invaded as we invade others.



What about the War of 1812 when Canadian (well mostly British, in fact Canada wasn't even a Country then) forces even burnt down the White house?

[oogabooga]

.

Hey, besides Pearl Harbour, I don't think this country has ever been invaded and bombed before 9/11 has it? Now we know what it feels like to be invaded as we invade others. :)

Well, I'm sure that many native americans might disagree with that statement. Like didn't the white man invade their country?. Anyways, I was reading one of our local newspapers the editorial and the headline read something like "Worlds richest country struggles in Hurricane aftermath". What a load of bollocks, as if being rich is going to save you from a hurricane, duh!. Stupid media.

I'm sure many people around the world feel sorry for those affected by the hurricane. One thing is for sure, sooner or later every country around the world will be hit by a natural disaster of some kind. Being rich, poor, black, white, christian, muslim - mother nature don't give a damn.

My rant :D

Rob.

[LadyGodiva]

Nice rant Rob :D

Anyone saw Celine Dion on CNN? She's right on target with her rant :bow:

Westie, thanks for the history lesson. I didn't know about that one. But you can't blame the Canadians if they were still British, can you? :)

[scott anthony]

Celine Dion, now thats another catastrophe in itself. We can only handle one right now :yeah:

[John Bridge]

Well, I've listened patiently to this crap long enough. We've suffered a couple serious disasters in this country in the past few years: 9/11 and the New Orleans flood. We'll get through it just fine, thank you. It's not the end of the world, nor is it the end of a way of life that has taken 250 years to fine tune (yes, we're still working on it).

It so happens that despite all that has happened and that might happen in the near future, the United States remains the most free country in the world. Of course, we are not perfect -- no one disputes that. But deciding arbitrarily that the country is going down the tubes because of a couple of disasters is a bit much.

It will take months, possibly years, to sort through the information that has been accumulating in the aftermath of this latest disaster, but it will be sorted out, and eventually what approaches truth will be discerned. Until that time, we need to keep our heads up, our feet firmly implanted on the ground and our minds clear so that we can deal with a reality that few of us seem to understand. Again, we're working on it.

In the meantime, it does no good to anyone to bad mouth the USA and its people. Bitch about the government? Sure, the government is always fair game. But don't talk badly about "the people." In the end, the people always come through.

Eli, you're sounding like someone who would rather be someplace else. I hope that's not true. :)

Westie,

We beat the sox off the Brits in the 1812 war. It's just that they never saw it that way. :D

[jd77]

Thanks JB. That needed to be said - by you. :)

LG - maybe this (http://tiadaily.com/php-bin/news/showArticle.php?id=1026) will give you some explanation for what we are seeing in N.O.



Here is a snippet:

What Hurricane Katrina exposed was the psychological consequences of the welfare state. What we consider "normal" behavior in an emergency is behavior that is normal for people who have values and take the responsibility to pursue and protect them. People with values respond to a disaster by fighting against it and doing whatever it takes to overcome the difficulties they face. They don't sit around and complain that the government hasn't taken care of them. They don't use the chaos of a disaster as an opportunity to prey on their fellow men.

But what about criminals and welfare parasites? Do they worry about saving their houses and property? They don't, because they don't own anything. Do they worry about what is going to happen to their businesses or how they are going to make a living? They never worried about those things before. Do they worry about crime and looting? But living off of stolen wealth is a way of life for them.

The welfare state--and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages--is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting.

Source: TIA Daily -- September 2, 2005

And that man made disaster - IMHO - is the government's fault :shake:

[oma]

I, for one, have no desire whatsoever to go down the socialist path that many want us to descend down. It is not the government's responsibility to take care of it's people. If it is, then we are nothing but indentured servants of the state, an it's getting close enough to that already. This country was founded on the principle of freedom. That is not a guarantee of happiness or a cushy life, but the freedom to persue the kind of life you desire. It's up to the individual to persue, not wait to be given a good life. A good life not earned is destructive to the very spirit of man. It is imperative that respect be earned for it to be meaningful. This cannot be taught, but it must be learned by experience. The best thing my parents ever did for me was to teach me the necessity of a strong work ethic. When you have that, happiness comes much easier because productivity in a human being has rewards beyond material things. It is all connected to a sense of self-worth.

[Westie]

Westie,

We beat the sox off the Brits in the 1812 war. It's just that they never saw it that way. :D

If it wasn't for the French helping you out,you would all be pledging alliance to Queen right now. :rolleyes:

[oma]

I don't believe that for a minute Westie. There would have been another fight, and another one, until it was finished. That's the deal with Americans. Most of us come from hard-headed fighting stock :)
Many of us may think we have become complacent, but it still brews underneath the surface.

[Westie]

It so happens that despite all that has happened and that might happen in the near future, the United States remains the most free country in the world.

Some would argue about that, but how about we discus it over a beer on a beach in Cuba? :)

[LadyGodiva]

John, I keep telling you guys that just because I'm a citizen does not mean I've lost my sight, hearing or voice. So every American who does not agree with some of you folks are wanting to be somewhere else? That's a weird way of looking at things. My father (rest his soul), lived in this country for about 22 years and if he thought something was wrong, he spoke up. You think you're right, and that's great for you. I happen to disagree with certain things in this country, and as far as I know, I have that right. Or did they make some kind of changes on my citizenship when I wasn't looking? :sick:

I see things differently. I'm from a different culture, and I've lived in other countries. I can't see things the way some Americans do. For some, travel changes how they see things, while for others they might remain unchanged.

Hey JD, That snippet...I've seen it before...went snooping around and read it earlier. :D

[LadyGodiva]

I, for one, have no desire whatsoever to go down the socialist path that many want us to descend down. It is not the government's responsibility to take care of it's people. If it is, then we are nothing but indentured servants of the state, an it's getting close enough to that already. This country was founded on the principle of freedom. That is not a guarantee of happiness or a cushy life, but the freedom to persue the kind of life you desire. It's up to the individual to persue, not wait to be given a good life. A good life not earned is destructive to the very spirit of man. It is imperative that respect be earned for it to be meaningful. This cannot be taught, but it must be learned by experience. The best thing my parents ever did for me was to teach me the necessity of a strong work ethic. When you have that, happiness comes much easier because productivity in a human being has rewards beyond material things. It is all connected to a sense of self-worth.



You know something, I don't disagree with you on work ethics. That's how I'm raising my children, but I'm also raising them to help others when they cannot help themselves. That's the problem I find myself struggling with. The system I came from was/is like Great Britain. I was a hard worker, a great student and I'm still pushing myself to become a better person. However, I find myself always concerned about poverty and the poor...the students who are at the bottom of the barrel. I'm not sure why I am always preocuppied with those who have less than I do, but that's the way I am. I'd give up making extra money just to volunteer and teach English to 'refugees' (at the Y for example). I know that once they learn to speak the language they have a better chance of making it in this country. I've tutored Spanish speaking kids at the Catholic church I attend in Tulsa. Back in the day when I was about 14, I was busy selling stuff to help the Red Cross in my native country. Call me a wuss, but that seems to be the path I was chosen to take. It's in my blood to help even though I get tired of the handouts and the whining as well.

Not everyone is coming from the background that you and I come from. What do we do with those who just cannot keep their heads above water? Do we just look out for #1 and to hell with the rest? I don't know Oma. There is a part of me that understands why we cannot swing the Socialist path...and there is another part of me that sees the need to help others. But how?

I give up. I'm going to bed. Keep well everyone, and do the best you can.

[John Bridge]

That's a deal, Westie, but can we make it in Cancun instead of Cuba? :)

Oma, we were joking about the war for independence and the 1812 fiasco. Westie knows who really won. In our wisdom we allowed the Brits to burn Washington. The strategy was to fool them into believing they were winning while we fled southward. It was all in the intitial plan. We knew we would ultimately whack them at New Orleans. :D

It's sort of like the war for Texas' independence from Mexico. Sam Houston's forces inadvertantly defeated the Mexican army while they, the Texicans, were running away to Lousiana. :D

[LadyGodiva]

John, Independence from Mexico? Last time I went through Texas I couldn't believe how handy my Spanish came in...who really won Texas? :tongue:

[oma]

LG, you don't know the background that I came from. I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth, but rather came from very humble beginnings. I come from poor farmers and factory-type workers. I had nothing handed to me, and didn't expect it. I knew that I was responsible for what I made of my life. What's lacking in our society today is not a lack of good will and help, but a lack of spirit and drive. Masses of our people (of all colors) wait for handouts, not because they can't provide for themselves, but because they dono't want to. They are like children in a way. You over-indulge them, and they come to expect it, and they resent you when you cut off the gravy train.On the other hand, they resent you for not allowing them to grow up and be independent and they bite the hand that feeds them. There' only one effective way to deal with the problem. LIke a good parent, you give them the tools to grow up responsibly, then you push them out of the nest and let them earn their wings. If they fall, you expect them to keep trying until they get it right. We have all kinds of government programs designed to give people the tools for success. There are college grants, trade work programs, government daycare programs for young government dependent mothers to utilize, food stamps, housing, medical benefits, and other available resources. The old saying that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink applies here. I just get tired of waiting for him to take a drink while we keep paying. Although there are those who are truly pitiful cases who legitimately need help, the vast majority are taking up resources without contributing anything.

[LadyGodiva]

Oma, good post. Now I understand better where you're coming from. Thank you.