Looting Why????

[opiethetileman]

gee it should be legal to shoot them looters. I am about ready to pack my gear and firepower and go volunteer in LA. its bullcrap a disaster and they loot. look at the people looting you tell me.

[Sponsored Links]

[Scooter]

Human nature, Dude. They get in boats and SUV's and see whats left behind. Certainly not enough police power to stop it.

[bljack]

How's this sound, since they aren't putting rescue workers and baskets on the news helecopters, go down and hitch a ride with one of them.

[John Bridge]

I believe you have degrees of looting going on. At least a few of those people are looking for food and water.

I know, I know, don't start on me. I know. :)

[opiethetileman]

i agree John but can you tell the guy with 27 inch flat screen there is no power put it back

[sandbagger]

i agree John but can you tell the guy with 27 inch flat screen there is no power put it backwith any luck, that will be the item that makes his boat sink, or whatever he's usin' to carry his booty. :laugh2:

'course, with all the floodin' and havoc, the irony is that those looted TVs will probably never see a ball game. not unless you got lots of batteries. :yeah:

[rstreet]

On MSNBC the reporter was in a Wal-Mart and had 2 policewomen on camera loading up their own shopping cart with stuff. He questioned them and they said they were there to look for looters. The guy said "What to do call all these people in here?". Then they proceeded to continue loading up stuff for themselves.

I can understand food and water, but flip flops and purses are a little reach.

[John K]

Well its possible that tropical storm "Lee" will clean out the looters. :idea:

[oma]

Not human nature, Dude. Animal nature. True character, or lack of it, really shows when the going gets tough.

[BustedThumb]

I support the looters...but *ONLY* those who are providing sustenance for themselves, family and others. I could care less if it's any edible item, personal item for your body like chapstick or toothpaste, flotation device, sunscreen, umbrella, blankets or clothing of any type.

If they break open a bank...shoot 'em

If they walk out with an electronic device...shoot 'em

If they break into a gun shop...shoot 'em

[NVC]

David, what if the gun store looters are getting firearms to protect the family bank and electronics store? ;) Or to shoot some food, some of us can still do that. :D Just pitchin' $hit, but bottom line is a guy has to be careful in his judgement of who is lootin' and who is 'surviving'.

Rstreet, if that's true that's the bottom of the barrel in law enforcement. I'm hoping Wal-Mart might have given consent to get items that would help the folks in need. If not, I hope they zoomed in on badge numbers/faces and documented time/place. Reminds me of things I've seen in Mexico and some of their policia.

hope all those affected readin' get back to better times soon,

Mark

[sandbagger]

one lady cop supposedly had a basket full of shoes - guess she figured she'd be walkin' a lot. One of the lady cops split when the camera approached, but the other would not be deterred from her "community service." :drevil:

[NVC]

Art,

Ah man, that ain't good. The corruption factor worries me a lot more than the shoes, ain't good at'all.

Course I guess if folks complained about the local and state authorities and nothing was done, the Fed would be abliged to 'step in' and take control . . . course, that ain't good, ain't good at all either. :uhh:

Sounds more and more 3rd world'ish to me, but I'm rather suspicious and detest corruption at any level. (contractors included) :D

Of course, I guess I should consider the source and wait to find out if two cops were in the back of the store knocked out, in their skivveys, uniforms stolen by two looter chicks . . . never know . . .

Mark

[John K]

Send the Army! Marshall law.

I can't believe with all the " think tanks" around this country, none of the "brains" ever had a contingency established for such a event. Especially for the friggin oil and gas interruption. :bang:

[opiethetileman]

Gee and a good % of the looters and problems are refuugees. Gee they come to this country and do this send them back . then they shoot at a chinook trying to help. trust me if it was my street there wouldnt be and lotting there would be graves. its just so sad a huge disaster and people act like animals

[LadyGodiva]

It happens everywhere, even in the good old USA. Remember the Rodney King period? There was looting in LA when people just went crazy. They weren't refugess out there, they were Americans!

I wouldn't dream of looting...unless it's a tile store :tongue:

[tilesnake]

Given the situation looting the liquor store would be perfectly understandable :) :cry: :) :cry: :) :cry: :)

[LadyGodiva]

Given the situation looting the liquor store would be perfectly understandable :) :cry: :) :cry: :) :cry: :)


I just knew that would be the first place you'd hit :tongue:

I still say tiles, and I might even grab a tilesetter or two while I'm at it. Remember, I have the bathrooms to redo :yipee:

[FireWrks7]

Eli, thanks for bring up the Rodney riots. The whole thing was surreal. Getting to work through the riot areas was like a movie. Fires going everywhere, an empty freeway with no apparent speed limit, and snippers taking target practice. I'm wondering how many refugee snipers were in some of those office buildings taking shoots at people.

Come to think of it, looting wasn't so bad during the Northridge earthquake. Reverse looting, price gouging, was the order of the day in the affected areas.


Opie, the looters on the streets are peanuts. The real looting will happen when the rebuilding starts. Looting doesn't exclusively happen in thrid world countries. It happens everywhere. Calling them white collar crimes doesn't change the fact Enron, Worldcom, the Savings & Loan crisis, etc are part and parcel the same. But right now I'd say look to the White House and Capitol Hill. Any guesses on who is jacking up the price of gas? Same people who caused an "energy crisis" a few years ago in California. Bush, Cheney, Inc and their good ole boys are getting even richer on our nickel and most people don't even have a clue, (e.g. why would they need to change ethics rule in Congress?). But for the moment, do you remember your local National Guard units and their equpiment. Shouldn't they be here helping instead of running around on a wild goose chase? I think at the very least a few pallets of MREs and water to help those without food, and fuel drops to keep the generators in hospitals going could have been done. Oh wait that is a plan the "leadership" didn't come up with so it can't be good.



Anthony

[Muny]

But right now I'd say look to the White House and Capitol Hill. Any guesses on who is jacking up the price of gas? Same people who caused an "energy crisis" a few years ago in California. Bush, Cheney, Inc and their good ole boys are getting even richer on our nickel and most people don't even have a clue, (e.g. why would they need to change ethics rule in Congress?). But for the moment, do you remember your local National Guard units and their equpiment. Shouldn't they be here helping instead of running around on a wild goose chase? I think at the very least a few pallets of MREs and water to help those without food, and fuel drops to keep the generators in hospitals going could have been done. Oh wait that is a plan the "leadership" didn't come up with so it can't be good.



Anthony
:rolleyes:
Get a clue dude. MRE's weres sent out immediately. The NG were the ones being shot in the helio's as they tried to evacuate people.

[oma]

And, DUH. They were all told to evacuate for at least a couple of days prior to the hurricane. If I lived in a city that sits below sea level, with a category five hurricane heading my way, you can bet, by hell or high water, I'd be heading out of the city whether anybody told me to or not. N O is a high crime city that is almost an island at this point. What did everyone expect? I'm amazed not only by the animal behavior of some of the inhabitants, but more by the fact that warnings went so unheeded.

[Shaughnn]

Passed a convoy of about 20 Hummers full of National Guard Military Police on my way home today. Since they weren't decked out for desert duty and they were hauling empty trailers and piles of stretchers, I presumed they were heaed to New Orleans and slowed enough to wish every driver whose attention I could safely catch, "Good luck".
I hope they have an absolutely boring time.
Shaughnn

[NVC]

The L.A. riots were another example of 3rd world. Me and several buddies drove to Florence and Normandy with a video camera (and loaded for bear) in the aftermath.

Burned down buildings, place was a wreak, thrash your own neighborhood, interesting concept.

Interesting to note, we got video of the Post Office, which was completely untouched, and buildings on either side were burned to a crisp. The mayhem was bridaled when it came to the place where welfare checks were handed out. Could have been another reason, but I doubt it. :)

Mark

[Shaughnn]

Oma,
A lot has been said about the level of poverty in New Orleans and how the hurricane's arrival on the 29th of the month left many without the option of relocating. There are also the people who frankly didn't believe the warnings. As well, quite a few tourists were left stranded in the city with no rental vehicles available to them either. It's not so cut-and-dry as "they chose to stay".
The barbaric behavior of some is surprising as this sort of activity traditionally follows episodes of civil unrest and not natural disasters here in the developed world. I hear it's a combination of desperation and opportunity with some criminal elements guiding the way.
I'd like it to stop, along with the rest of us. I wouldn't have much of a problem with a "looters will be shot" order given. But it's fairly easy to understand what's driving the anarchy there. Isn't it?
Shaughnn

[jd77]

It's not so cut-and-dry as "they chose to stay".
The barbaric behavior of some is surprising as this sort of activity traditionally follows episodes of civil unrest and not natural disasters here in the developed world. I hear it's a combination of desperation and opportunity with some criminal elements guiding the way.
I'd like it to stop, along with the rest of us. I wouldn't have much of a problem with a "looters will be shot" order given. But it's fairly easy to understand what's driving the anarchy there. Isn't it?
Shaughnn


Good one Shaughnn - couldn't have said it better my ownself :)

It's natural to want to blame someone for this but this just isn't the time for it. After all N.O. has always been on the brink of a disaster like this. Check out this article (http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline03/0603feat.html ) written about a study done on this exact scenario. It was written in 2003.

[NVC]

Never thought I'd say this on one of these topics I don't ever make comments on but, I hafta agree with ya Pie-rate :D

Desperation, trying to provide food/shelter/health care stuff for their families, is fair looting IMHO under the circumstances.

Shooting folks for stuff (food notwithstanding) and shooting at rescue/med-evac helicopters is a clear waste of ammunition in such circumstances.

Of course all this is easy for me to pipe off about as I'm sitting in my un-damaged home, with water, electricity, warm blankets, and food (and cheap beer) in the fridge. So, I guess I can't make judgement on something I've never experienced, but I would hope my ethics would hold, even in dire straights. (not the band)

good thread, even for a non-tile, non-joke one. ;)

Mark

[flatfloor]

What surprises me is that everyone (media especially) expects all this equipment to materialize out of thin air. The buses, trucks, repair crews are being driven in from all over the country as are the National Guard troops.

Beam me up Scotty! :uhh:

[Shaughnn]

Jim,
I had that same conversation with my mother (yes, I do have one :) ) last night. She was "outraged" that helicopters and truck drivers didn't have the "decency" to pass out bottled water to people stranded in the open sun. It took a while to explain to her that bottled water has to come from *someplace* and that the pilots and drivers can't carry around pallets of the stuff to hand out if they are going to use their payloads for something else.
She was equally outraged that they would drive or fly by these people without picking them up and taking them someplace safe. Again, it took a while to convince Mom that a military functions only when the rank-and-file follow the orders whcih they are given. A diviation from those orders, even for the most noble reasons, can disrupt the larger effort and spell ruin for an operation at the most critical time. They can't stop to fill their truck or helicopters with refugees if they are headed *away* from refuge or if doing so jeopardizes their assignments. That's just the nature of a well-disciplined military.
I blame the knuckleheads at CNN and other sensationalizing outlets for not tempering their incessant flood of images and commentary without a tempering stream of explanation and education. Mom's glued in front of the screen and her "outrage" was bred and fed by their capitalization on tragedy as the "ultimate reality TV". :sick:
I saw a shot piece tonight where a CNN reporter took his cameraman and sound guy out through the waterways of New Orleans on an airboat WHILE doing a story about how the rescue efforts are hampered due, in part, to a shortage of airboats! :bang: My thoughts at the time, "Do your stinking story from the shore dumb-ass and give the boat to a couple of rescue workers!" MY wife says I'm not allowed to watch TV for the rest of the night. :(
Shaughnn

[LadyGodiva]

The L.A. riots were another example of 3rd world. Me and several buddies drove to Florence and Normandy with a video camera (and loaded for bear) in the aftermath.

Burned down buildings, place was a wreak, thrash your own neighborhood, interesting concept.

Interesting to note, we got video of the Post Office, which was completely untouched, and buildings on either side were burned to a crisp. The mayhem was bridaled when it came to the place where welfare checks were handed out. Could have been another reason, but I doubt it. :)

Mark



How could what happened in L.A. be another example of Third World? Those people were AMERICANS who were looting and burning. I'm beginning to wonder if these comments about Third World has another meaning.

[NVC]

Has nothing to do with skin color LadyG, <since edited>

The third world comments I've made refer to the lack of ethics, abuse of power, be it authoritated or just power of an individual to do the right thing even when he or she doesn't have to.

Acting in a civil and decent manner towards their fellow man (woman).

Poverty doesn't figure into the equation in my mind, simply based off of the stories and accounts of history and the way people acted during America's 'Great Depression'. Crime and poverty doesn't sit well with me either based on studies that I've perused showing the most poverty stricken places in the U.S. having some of the lowest crime rates in the nation. (South Dakota was one at the time of the study)

It boils down to ethics and character, which I hope (to no avail) people in a 1st world country, who have been fortunate beyond a majority of the world's dreams, would not lose even in a time of turmoil. I just hold "1st world countries" to a higher standard when it comes to their actions. Nothing more, nothing less.

Color <since edited> means nothing to me. A thief is a thief, a good person is a good person no matter the pigmentation of their epidermus. Not to say I'll swallow a bunch of pissin' and moanin' because of being born a different color and how I should be responsible for past actions because I was born a certain tint of past offenders, that isn't fair either. We can't be responsible for the past, but only do the best we can with the present, hoping to leave a better future for the rest.

<tosses .02 cents> :)
<EDITED for that whole "I" before "E" spellin' thang> :D
Mark

[flatfloor]

Anybody care to justify the rapes? :uhh:

[oma]

Shaughnn, not placing blame here, because it doesn't really matter. What I am commenting on is what appears to me a complete disregard for the gravity of the situation. It shouldn't take much sense to look ahead and put two and two together. On the usual coastal areas, I can understand how one might think there was a fair chance of survival without major complications. In a city below sea level, I find it more difficult to grasp. I have a live creek on my place that rises rapidly with a good rain. During the rainy season, I'm always on guard and watching closely. My level of risk is nowhere near those living in N O. Water is one of the most destructive of the forces in nature, and it is extremely unforgiving. I guess I'm just amazed at the lack of survival skills kids are learning these days. We taught our son how to take care of himself in the real sense of the word by prioritizing, hunting for and growing his own food, how to clothe himself if need be, how to obtain drinkable water, how to provide shelter, and how to be alert and look ahead to potential problems. Our populace, as a whole, has forgotten how to take care of themselves.

[BustedThumb]

oma~

I lived through Hurricane Alicia, a mild Cat 3 and Houston was in terrible shape for months. I currently travel back and forth to Beaumont/Port Arthur on I10, THE west evacuation route for New Orleans.

I can tell you this, one fender bender will turn I10 into a 10 mile logjam of 18-wheelers in about 1/2 an hour.

If New Orleans was going to evacuate *the entire city* they needed to start the day Katrina hit Florida or sooner. I would think that 5 days would have been reasonable. Otherwise, everybody would have drowned in their car.

[oma]

But Baton Rouge is approximately a one hour drive from N O. You would primarily need to get across the Ponchartrain causeway to make it into safer territory. It should not take five days to get everyone out of the danger zone. Getting past the causeway would not take much more gas than driving to WalMart for many people. My point is that I would get my little *ss out of the sinkhole to where I could at least walk north, if nothing else. I will admit that those swamps can be pretty scary places though. :)

[miss piggy]

Let me give you a bit of my perspective on this: I live approx 70 miles n/w of N.O. We have been without power for going on 6 days now. I do still have a house and I feel blessed. I have a friend who is much further east of me in the Washington Parish Area, which is j ust a few miles E. of Slidell,La. She told me they have nothing left, nothing. The tiny civic center in their town and two churches, which were spared any damage, agreed to take in some people from the N.O. area. They had food,water, beds,showers,etc. They were not policed in any way, just welcomed and given what they needed. After approx. 24 hours, they called in the Sheriff, who then called in school buses and loaded them all up and shipped them OUT of there. why? because the tiny civic center and the two churches had been trashed, torn up , gutted, from stem to stern. How's that for gratitude? The people who had nothing much left themselves, gave what they could and then this was the thanks they were given. You would have to be here to see what it is really like. I wonder which tv station will win the award they are all out there trying to win? piggy

[Tool Guy - Kg]

Glad to hear you that you are safe Patricia. That's great news! :nod: We were wondering about how you were.

Sorry to hear about the lack of gratitude. Do you have any perspective on why people are resorting to hurting those who are helping them? I mean everyone can understand that there is a major devastation, and loss, and fear. But trashing the place is turning to violence. Why?

[LadyGodiva]

Glad to hear you that you are safe Patricia. That's great news! :nod: We were wondering about how you were.

Sorry to hear about the lack of gratitude. Do you have any perspective on why people are resorting to hurting those who are helping them? I mean everyone can understand that there is a major devastation, and loss, and fear. But trashing the place is turning to violence. Why?



Why don't you ask a psychologist? Trauma, shock etc. might be the cause. Are you where these folks are? It's easy to be alamed, but until we get hit by some foreign land in a major way, we really don't know how the whole lot of us would react now, do we? I'm am not condoning the actions, but trauma can cause us to act in ways that we might never have thought possible.

[LadyGodiva]

Anybody care to justify the rapes? :uhh:


Even in war time some men can't seem to help themselves. This is a disaster zone but in their minds it's like war time maybe...and besides, they're men :uhh: :bang:

[rstreet]

That's b.s., rape is never excuseable. Line them up and shoot them.

[LadyGodiva]

That's b.s., rape is never excuseable. Line them up and shoot them.


Oh, I'm not making an excuse for them. I've always been sickened by the thought that some men could rape a woman. Even in famine areas these men still seem to have the energy to rise to the occasion. Why don't they just...never mind, I get pissed off easily by the behaviour of some men and their toy. :bang:

[flatfloor]

In a war men usually rape the enemy not their own people.

[miss piggy]

Lady, I simply do NOT buy your reasons for their reactions. I think it is simply their normal way of dealing with things, and I know I will catch hell for this,b ut these kinds of people have the mind set of: "YOU OWE ME:" now if we don't get what we want, YOU WILL PAY.... from where I am we see this all the time

[John Bridge]

I agree with you, Piggy. Some of that seems to be going on here in Houston and elsewhere.

[LadyGodiva]

What do you mean 'these kinds of people?'

I'm just wondering how you guys dealt with Timothy McVeigh who killed his own people (Americans) and they weren't all 'people of colour.' I'm thinking there really isn't anything so different between those people who are raping their own or Timothy, do you? Same type of insanity in my books.

But then again, the government owed McVeigh so he let loose, didn't he? At least that's how he saw it.

[flatfloor]

I'm just wondering how you guys dealt with Timothy McVeigh

He's dead.

[rstreet]

I'm thinking there really isn't anything so different between those people who are raping their own or Timothy, do you? Same type of insanity in my books.

Big difference in my book. A guy who loads a Ryder truck full of fertilizer and blows a building to pieces, has a total different mind set to me.

I worked 2 miles away in OKC when that happened and saw the destruction and loss of lifes first hand that he caused.

I think you would have a different opion if you were the one raped. Or had a family member/friend blown into hundreds of pieces.

[oma]

Miss Piggy, you won't catch any hell from me. I have worked the streets from the medical end, and it's a war zone in some places. Problem is the war exists in their minds and hearts, not in reality. It looks to me like a big giant temper tantrum after a child doesn't get what it wants who needs a sterm parent to show that it's not going to act that way. If someone wants to be self-destructive, fine with me, but don't go spreading the misery around to others. It's sad that there is such misery in our own back yard, but at some point, each individual has to accept responsibility for and create his/her own happiness. It can't come from outside.

[oma]

LG, I think there are major differences between McVeigh and the current events in New Orleans. Tim McVeigh, from what I can tell, was not merely reacting to what he viewed as some short term slight, and didn't seem to think the Government owed him anything. If anything, he seemed to think the government was too intrusive. His eventual course of actions appears to have been planned, thought out in detail, and with purposeful intent. There are some who believe he was working with foreign terrorists. I don't know if I buy that or not, but it's not out of the realm of possibility. What I see happeneing in N O is quite the opposite. It is totally reactionary and opportunistic, directed at no one in particular, but whoever happens to be convenient for robbing, killing or raping.

[Tool Guy - Kg]

Why don't you ask a psychologist? Trauma, shock etc. might be the cause. Are you where these folks are? It's easy to be alamed, but until we get hit by some foreign land in a major way, we really don't know how the whole lot of us would react now, do we? I'm am not condoning the actions, but trauma can cause us to act in ways that we might never have thought possible.I don't buy it. Shock is your body's way to survive in a situation that you perceive as dangerous or life threatening. Strange behavior that manifests itself is an effort to survive or stop whatever damage that is occuring from continuing. Aggressive destructive hurtful behavior is not the behavior of someone "surviving" or "stopping the hurt".

I asked Patricia because I'm not there and want some insight to something I haven't experienced. For that, I thank her. She has shed her view from what she has experienced. I welcome all other insights. But I don't buy that they are hurting other people and property out of a trauma or shock.

[Albert]

well, i dont know what to say. lotsa stuff going on here.

what is going on in new orleans makes me sick. ima conservative dude but there is no excuse why our gummint or why our people couldn't take care of these folks or get them out of the city. why the hell coodnt they at least drop in food and supplies? dont make sense to me except ehy got a bunch of idiots runnin the show. thank god they finally let the military take the lead because they may be the only people with any integrity, any common sense, and any sense of purpose left in our frederal governmant. i know thats not true but it seems like it is true.

i growed up in new orleans. i was 9 years old when hurricane betsy roared thru town and we huddled in our houes with my two younger brothers and little sister and my parents with just candles for lite and the bricks fallin down the chimbly and the whole house shakin but we made it. i was also there for hurricane camille in 1969 and we drove down the gulf coast which looked like it does today. you've seen the pichers but you wood never beleeve what it looks like in person.

there's lotsa stuff peeple dont know about neww orleans. it is one of the friendliest places in the country. it has the largest percentage of black people of any big city in the country (almost 70%). and almoste evryone there is decent caring peeple, even the ones who is dirt poor. and it is one of the most violent cities in the country, which peeple has figgered out by now.

on a normal day, without hurricanes and wiht peeple living their regular lives it is hard to keep looters out of your home. there are many random murders, rapes, carjackings etc. it is so bad that i left. i moved to washington dc which if you can believe is 100 times safer than new orleans. not statistically but in reality because most of the crime is located in certain sections of washington dc. not all over like it is in new orleanws.

but new orleans is a great city filled with fun peeple, creative people, fantastic music and fabulous food and culture and magic. which is why peeple stay. there is some good wurk too but the peeple who stay enjoy their friends and their lives.

when i left new orleqans to move to dc a group of black folks threw a party for me at an all-black catholic church and musicians came from around the city to play. i was blown away. they cood barely pay rent and they was throwing a party for me ? there are incredible peeple there.

two of my cousins stayed in new orleans for the hurricane. why ? because they couldnt (or more likely wouldnt) transport their mom who has been bedridden for years. they stayed with her. but they sent their spouses and children away to safetty. they felt confident because they were ina huge beautiful old house that had been there for hundreds of years. but during the storm the front door blew in and a back wall partially blew out. but they were ok. then the situation got bad, after the storm had passed. two days ago my girl-cousin's husband drove into new orleans rescued them. he drove his truck through numerous police checkpoints, drove up to the house (which was not flooded), put everyone in the truck with all their weapons and drove out of the city. on the way out they passed many looters, some of whome had taken over the prettiest block of houses in the entire city outside of the french quarter. luckly they made it without getting killed.

he did what the gummit coodn't do. one guy in a pickup truck. too bad no one in the gummit got their asses into the city to help other peeple who needed it. why not 100 guys in 100 pickup trucks? or thousands?

lotsa locals been riskin their lives hepping these peoeple but feds coodnt' do it. the press dont report it enuff neither.

my parents were out of the c=ity but their house is probly gone. my brother had to evacuate. he now has his kids enrolled in school in north carolina. my wife's sisters fambly will move to houston or atlanta or alabam but they don't know where. a cousin enrolled their kids in school in florida. i am wiff these peeple this weekend in florida where there is power and water and food.

iff you want to know how peeple feel then listen to this frank interview wiff the mayor of the city of new orleans from 2 or 3 days ago. he tells it like it is the way no one in gummit has told it. listen here:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.nagin/index.html

albert

[Bugman]

Albert, thanks for your very unique and honest assessment of New Orleans. Those of us who have never been there or only visited can't understand the "flavor" of the citizens.

It's also easy for all of us who have not been though the whole Katrina experience in New Orleans to even imagine what has taken place. It's easy for us to second guess what should have been done. I have lots of ideas of what could have been done better, but I'm not going to go into them. The one thing I would agree on are the statements the Mayor made about not really having anyone in charge. I loved it when he asked that the general (name escapes me) who the mayor wanted put in charge came into New Orleans. Basically, the mayor said the general flew in, got off his helicopter, looked around, started cussin' and the people started movin! I understand he is now in charge and people are moving.

Here's an interesting site from some computer jocks who have stayed in their building through the whole thing. Picked it up on CNN, I think. http://mgno.com/ Great pictures and lots of "interesting" comments in some of the threads.

I wonder if the aftermath of Katrina will change some people's minds about riding out the next hurricane. It's sad that it takes something like this to make people take mother nature seriously. I'm glad I live 200+ miles from the coast. Of course that doesn't always give you too much protection all the time. Just ask people in Charlotte, NC who thought they were safe from Hugo.

[flatfloor]

Gen. Russel Honore.

Why didn't the mayor take charge?

[Albert]

thanks bugman. thats a good link. my brother lives in greenville and steve hauser knows him. my other brother put his kids in school in cashiers nc and his wife and kids will stay with my parents who will live there (between cashiers and highlands) until they find out when they return to their house in new orleans.

it definitely will change peeples minds bout riding out the next storm. and there will more of an effort to bus out the old folks who dont have no way to get outta the city.

because of the population new orleans probably will always have a black mayor. the last string of mayors were all worthless politicos but the current mayor is a sharp guy who made it in businesss (a cable tv executive) and he had been cleaning up the corruption in the city.

check out what the mayor say below:

albert



City must overcome disaster, mayor says

Nagin: Response still isn't enough

By Doug MacCash
Staff writer

Viewed from the windows of a low-flying Blackhawk helicopter, the scope of Hurricane Katrina's destruction becomes clearer. The Causeway is like a broken spine, large sections of roadway listing disconcertingly into the brown water of Lake Pontchartrain. The modest homes in the Lower 9th Ward have been uprooted and are crushed together in clots like bumper cars. Pyramid-shaped rooftops are all that can be seen of many suburban-style houses in the Lakeview neighborhood. And the expanses of small trees that line the coastal wetlands of eastern New Orleans have been bent to the ground and combed precisely in one direction that marks the path of last week's ferocious wind. Nothing is right.

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin knew that's what he would find when he conducted a helicopter survey Saturday of the city, a grim tour that graphically exposed members the national and local press to the destruction he's come to know well. The copter turned slow circles over the sky like a buzzard over the still-breached 17th St. Canal levee and twice paused in flight over New Orleanians who were still stranded. Nagin dropped water and a ready-to-eat meal to one of them.

Preparing for the flight, Nagin was in a more sedate mood than he was during an expletive-ridden television interview Thursday, when he railed against the plodding federal and state relief efforts, accused President Bush and Gov. Kathleen Blanco of posturing for political advantage at a time of acute need, and burst into tears -- not that the situation in the drowning, crippled city had much improved.

"When I woke up this morning," Nagin said, "I turned my radio off. I just couldn't digest any more bad news."

Bush was forgiving of Nagin's tirade when they met Friday, Nagin said. "He said, 'Look, I know you said lots of things. We could have done better. I can't argue. Let's deal with the future.' ... Mr. Bush was really, really concerned."

Blanco, too, understood his anger, Nagin said. "I told the president and her, 'I kind of lost it. But put yourselves in my shoes. If I said anything offensive, I apologize.' ... But then I immediately went on to tell them what I need."

Nagin may have mended his fences politically, but he said he still believes the situation is being poorly handled. "We're still fighting over authority," he said. "A bunch of people are the boss. The state and the federal government are doing a two-step dance. "I told the president, 'I'm into solutions. If the state government can't take responsibility, then you take it.' ... I think it's getting better, but the pace is still not sufficient.'"

Some observers have said that because the majority of storm evacuees are black, the lethargic disaster response has a racist component. But Nagin cast the color issue in another light. "I think it's more a class issue than race," he said. "The Superdome had mostly poor people in distress. The rich have resources the poor don't. The Convention Center was different. There the poor were mixed with people from hotels and predators. You had blacks, Hispanics, Asians. The predators in there didn't care. When those stories come out, like children raped, with their throats cut, then somebody's got to answer."

Nagin's ire began to rise anew as he recalled a foiled strategy to send able-bodied refugees over the Crescent City Connection to the high ground of the West Bank.

"We were taking in people from St. Bernard Parish," he said. "If we had a bottle of water, we shared it. Then when we were going to let people cross the bridge, they were met with frigging dogs and guns at the Gretna parish line. They said, 'We're going to protect Jefferson Parish assets.'

"Some people value homes, cars and jewelry more than human life. The only escape route was cut off. They turned them back at the parish line."

Nagin said that in order to cope with the always frustrating, sometimes overwhelming situation he has tried to "stay in the moment," dealing as best he can with each individual issue as it arises: a police officer's report that a large number of elderly people were stranded near Lee Circle; the sight of refugees continuing to gather on the city's raised highways. Nagin recalled with special dismay having recently been told that a New Orleans police officer committed suicide during the storm's aftermath.

"I asked my people to get in touch with the LSU department of psychiatry," he said. "The police are holding the situation together with Band-Aids. We have to let them get three to five days off."

As the Blackhawk coursed over the city, Nagin and the other passengers pointed out familiar landmarks made unfamiliar by the storm. The city was largely ruined. It would be as difficult to restart as the thousands of automobiles submerged in the murky water below. But Nagin insisted it must be restarted, no matter what.

"I think I'm here for a reason: to rebuild," he said. "New Orleans is the soul of the country. It's the place jazz comes from. It has Mardi Gras Indians that nobody else has. It's a place where a chef can take a piece of fish and make it into a masterpiece. We don't even think about not rebuilding Miami. We don't think about rebuilding Los Angeles, and they're on a fault line. We just do it. We don't talk about it. I don't want to talk about that foolishness."

[Albert]

flatfloor,

what can the mayor take charge of? the National Guard? no. greyhound? no.

He took charge of the police, fire depts, and some rescue but what cood he do. absolutely no communications. al cell towers down. radios stopped working because they coddnt charge the battries. can you imagine trying to do anything in thet environment? caint even talk to no one.

albert

[LadyGodiva]

Albert, you're taking up bandwith. Don't follow in my footsteps or John will be asking about those muscle relaxers :D

What I meant was that those who blow up buildings, rape, serial killers etc. are all insane!

My comment was to show that the same way the blacks are capable of hurting their own, Timothy McVeigh was able to kill his own. I do not like to see remarks that sound as if these types of behaviour only belong to those in the ghettos!

There are criminals out there taking advantage of the situation.

[LadyGodiva]

Whether you care what the world thinks or not, here is an interesting link. Don't be too quick to say you don't care what the world thinks because you did when you were getting ready to hunt down Osama.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4211320.stm

I'm a naturalised citizen and proud of it. However, I did not lose my vision, voice or hearing. We must not be blinded by what is going on in this country and what our government is doing just because we feel that is patriotic.

Enjoy the weekend. Think of those who can't :)

[mark11755]

I once went to a tile forum and a hockey game broke out. :)

[sdaniels7114]

For those of you who only come here, let me tell you. This place is peaceful, almost boring really right about now. All across the internet there's spite and anger and a near-infinite number of spit-covered monitors.

The good news is that the whole situation has been solved at least 1,346 times. If only the authorities could stumble across any one of those 1,346 IP addys.

[flatfloor]

C'mon Mark, a little high sticking and tripping is good for the soul. :D

[Albert]

hey lg,
sorry you took my comments as racist. they are not.

if i said that 70% of the crime is commiteed by blacks in new orleans is that racist if 70% of the people in the city are black? no. the fact is the percentage of people who commit violent crime in the city and happens to be black is higher than that, but staistics are just facts, they aint racists.

what is happening in new orleans is not racists, dspite what jesse "my man" jackson says. it probably reflects class problems but that happens everywhere. doesn't make it right but it is what it is.

i've been to many places in new orleans where i was the only white boy and the people were gracious and accepting. it's a small minority of peoples there that is the problem, black and white.

you wouldn't believe the kinds of horrific crimes that happen there on a dailey basis. it blaows away almost everything i read about crime in dc (except for the crimes committed by marion barry).

did you read in the news about the 14 year old girl who was raped this week and then had her throat slit in the convention center restroom in new orleans? i guarantee you that the police dint commit this crime. there are some very bad actors there and i hope they get what they desrve.

but all the good folks in new orleans sure dont deserve what they got. its a natural disaster and we have to deal with it the best way we know as americans. we dont need some other country tellin us what to do, even though its embarrasssing to us.

hockey anyone? :bang:

albert

[flatfloor]

LG, all that link you posted did was reinforce my attitude. it represents a collection of talking heads speaking from 3,000 miles away.

[Albert]

LG, all that link you posted did was reinforce my attitude. it represents a collection of talking heads speaking from 3,000 miles away.

:laugh2:

[LadyGodiva]

Albert, I do understand what you're saying there. Just as long as you guys would have reacted the same way had the population been 70% white, but since it's not we will never know. Anyway, keep your nose out of trouble or I'll have you hanging by the ....

Yep, I know the criminals and gangs were let loose. Hopefully, they will be rounded up and kept there in prison and not sent out as 'refugees' to other parts. We could of course send them to Cuba...didn't Castro send us some of his? :D

[Rob Z]

LG,

It's easy for everyone around the globe to manufacture quotable quotes in a drive-by intellectual fashion. Many of the countries who are the most critical wouldn't stand for an assessment of how they treat their citizens and how they conduct their business, both internally and worldwide.

Some of the issues that have led to the way this event has unfolded were decades in the making, and even longer in the case of trying to keep NO sited where it is against all environmental odds and good sense. I don't think that someone in another country in another continent has the grasp of the myriad complexities that explain why this disaster happened the way it did. Most people here in the US don't, either. Very few people here could at the spur of the moment and in a single editorial assess an involved situation in another country and devise an analysis that had any depth or relevance, all within hours or days of the event.

I had a geology class 20 years ago where the professor detailed for us exactly how this sort of thing would unfold (within our lifetime), and the hows and whys of the mix of politics of the locals, the states, and the feds, along with the Army Corps of Engineers. The analysis and study in the years to come will I'm sure reveal a lot that we should have known before, and that there were a lot of people that predicted a great deal but were out voted, out "politic-ed", and ignored because what they had to say didn't sound like kind of advice that people everywhere want to hear while times are good . :bang:

[flatfloor]

Good morning Lady, I just read your last post that said good night. :)

[LadyGodiva]

FlatFloor, you're late as usual. Good morning my dear, and how is the weather treating you? Are you in the dog house these days or behaving yourself?

I haven't had breakfast yet so I'm a bit crabby :D

[Rob Z]

LG


!Desayunese ahorita! !Hagalo por su esposo, por favor! :)

[LadyGodiva]

Rob, que chistoso eres! Ya lo hice y me siento mejor, gracias por el consejo :bow:

[flatfloor]

Typical of the "reporting" that's coming out of there were the reports of 5 looters being shot and killed by the N.O. PD. Then it was reported they were contractors employed by FEMA (Assoc. Press) Then still another saying they weren't contractors and questioning if the incident even happened.

Fox has that paragon of investigative reporting on, the world famous Geraldo Rivera. It was unbelievable listening to him shout down another reporter as he explained a helicopter crash. A scene he was not present at and had only viewed as a remote, same as the other reporter. Didn't matter he had no idea what happened as long as he got air time.

[Hamilton]

I know the govt had a slow responce and passed the buck, but really
though where were the air drop's? Our air force has the capability of
dropping supplies by parachute ANY supplies including vehicles. They
could have been getting prepped at a military base in another state
and had supplies ready for drop days before the ground help arrived.
Im a proud American but i am truly ashamed of our govt. All the lies
in the past, overspending and wars have never insulted me as much
as the neglect of Her own people. :complain:

[Bugman]

. . . where were the air drop's? Our air force has the capability of dropping supplies by parachute ANY supplies including vehicles.

Yup, and I can just see the news media having a field day as the pallets of supplies came down on a bunch of people and crushed them! :bang: They had enough problems trying to get supplies to the Convention Center by helicopter when the people tried to mob the helicopter. Ended up tossing supplies out the door just above the people. Wish there was a good answer.

[sdaniels7114]

The only thing I'm pretty sure of is that its not that hard to make a bigger, stronger wall or pumps that could handle more water. It seems to be a function of money and time to me; but I'm no injuneer. Not doing whatever they did to kill off so much of the coastal wetlands would have helped too.

Five days for the NG is also pretty damning if you ask me. If that really is the best we can do, we need to re-evaluate what's important.

Things like this cause serious confidence issues nationaly. How far are we right now from the helplessness and malaise of the '70's? Is not being able to get our people out of NO the same as not being able to get them out of Iran?

[jgleason]

Makes you wonder why NOLA officials didn't follow their disaster plan...

Louisiana disaster plan, pg 13, para 5 , dated 01/00

'The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating'

You think they could have made use of some of the hundreds of buses in the photo BEFORE they were rendered useless by the flood waters.

This makes for good reading too, written by Ben Stein. - http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=8693

[flatfloor]

C'mon peeples, the ones left behind refused to go. :uhh:

[Albert]

thats right flatfloor, the city provided free bussing before the storm -- to the superdome -- to those who couldnt evacuate. weve all seen the peeple on tv today who STILL refuse to evacuate??? they must be drinking the water, i mean the koolaid. :bang:

ive been searching the aerial photos for pictures of places i know and the homes of friends. i used this website:
http://ngs.woc.noaa.gov/katrina/090E29M_KATRINA.HTM

i just found my parents' house. the area is flooded. big bummer. i cropped the photo and sent it my parents. they are sleeping but theyll find it in the morning.

the house in the upper left hand part of the photo has a swimming pool but you cant see it because it merged with the floodwater. the house just below it to the right is my parents' house. :cry:

albert

[sandbagger]

thats right flatfloor, the city provided free bussing before the storm -- to the superdome -- to those who couldnt evacuate. weve all seen the peeple on tv today who STILL refuse to evacuate??? they must be drinking the water, i mean the koolaid. :bang:
sorry to hear about your family's loss, Albert. :crap:

fact is - as Joe pointed out earlier - that the city completely ignored it's own disaster plan. I suspect they paid some big $$ consultants to write it, but apparently forgot to pay anyone to actually read it. It's now come out that the city had a bunch of buses (200? 2000? :confused: ) that sat idle. The Feds actually suggested the evacuation order much earlier than the one the mayor finally issued. But most people seem to be ignorant of one simple fact - the Federal gov't cannot issue an evacuation order for a US city! :bonk:

too often in this discussion we fail to distinguish between system responsibility and personal responsibility. We have a very clear hierarchy of responsibility and chain of command that is established by law - that is the "system." We elect and hire people to administer various agencies and carry out the tasks specified by their charters, plus there's a certain amount of individual responsibility for planning and acting - that's the "personal." There is a distinct - and very important - difference. If the system was engaged as planned yet failed to perform it must be changed. If a key person in the chain failed to properly engage the system, you change the person. But there is a big difference between a system that failed and failing to engage the system and allowing it to work (or fail). Wthout this distinction it is impossible to accomplish any meaningful improvement, and the blame game just accelerates. Watching the news and various discussions it is clear that this distinction is not understood by many, and ignored by others (often with an agenda).

btw - there are at least 3 types of failure in this scenario - 2 being system-related. The first is a system that engages but fails to perform - usually just overstressed in one or more ways by the magnitude of the task, or by tasks unanticipated. But other systems perform precisely as designed - yet fail to solve the problem. Failure is failure.

sadly, we may never know if many components of the 'system' would have worked - or will work in the future. That is reserved for the next disaster. What we do know is that at least two key people failed miserably - the NO Mayor and LA guv (so why did she ignore Bush and delay the disaster declaration?). :sick: :mad:

[John Bridge]

They didn't anticipate the levee's giving way. They thought the storm might miss them by enough miles to spare them the worst of the forecast damage (the eye did hit forty miles to the east). They also (correctly) deduced that the storm might lose just a bit of its intensity before it hit them. Had the levee not given way, they would be heroes today instead of targets of disdain.

That's the answer to your question. I don't say I agree with any decisions made, but I think that's the reasoning. ;)

[flatfloor]

How about we lay the blame where it belongs? Mother Nature!

Anyone who really believes any system that has to deal with a catastrophe of this magnitude is going to function seamlessly is out of their f***ing mind.

[John Bridge]

I'll offer a little anecdotal info. The morning after the storm hit I recall remarking to my customer that the folks who had ridden out the storm in the bars on Burbon Street had been vindicated. They were still there. No power, but I imagine the bar owners had the foresight to load up ice chests. The sun was coming out, and it looked like it might not be all bad. ;)

And then the levee broke.

[stacde]

The magic marker method for evacuation:

NYT article (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/06/opinion/06tierney.html?hp&oref=login)

I think it requires a login name, but it's free.

[Albert]

john's right. and then the levee broked. he's been thru hurracanes in houston so he knows what it's about. saturday night the storm was 115mph and moving slowly. sunday morning it was 165mph and moving faster. big big diffrence between the two. you can bet more folks will evacuate more faster next time.

the order to evacuate and the evacuation itself shood be improved. but the difficulty of this decision and operation is hard to really undertsand if youve never been faced wiff it yourselfs.

here's an interesting spin on the whole situation. like most of the articles it has some truth and some room for debate. i dont agree wiff allofit but there's more truth than some may want to admit.

albert

================

An Unnatural Disaster: A Hurricane Exposes the Man-Made Disaster of the Welfare State

An Objectivist Review

http://tiadaily.com/php-bin/news/showArticle.php?id=1026

[Hamilton]

Yup, and I can just see the news media having a field day as the pallets of supplies came down on a bunch of people and crushed them! :bang: They had enough problems trying to get supplies to the Convention Center by helicopter when the people tried to mob the helicopter. Ended up tossing supplies out the door just above the people. Wish there was a good answer.
When the rains stopped they could have made air drops. If you ask
any drop specialist they are trained to hit detailed targets. If there were
"ANY" kinds of troops on the ground they would have been able to secure
a target possibly? Anyways its all been done already. New problems exist
now. Disease is the new subject on the news this eve, As well as what
to do with folks who have absolutely nothing, and nothing to return to....
ever.

[Tool Guy - Kg]

..........folks who have absolutely nothing, and nothing to return to....ever.
We come into this world with nothing.......and leave with nothing.

Their attitudes will determine if this is a beggining.........or an ending for them.

[terryc]

YAY ALBERT! You hit the nail directly on the head that time. I've been wondering if I was the only one seeing this. It seems that everyone is just pointing fingers at everyone else. But lets review a little.
The day after Katrina, people were dancing in the streets. It wasn't until 2 and 3 days after Katrina that the levees broke, THEN things became critical.
But what I SAW (not what the reporters were talking about) was a major amount of human destruction. What I'm talking about is not so much the looting and raping and killing, as just absolutely TRASHING the centers they were staying at. Trash being thrown down everywhere, etc.... and people sitting on thier duffs, not doing one single thing to help themselves, saying GIMME GIMME GIMME. NOW NOW NOW. This is NOT normal human behavior. This is a direct result of our welfare system. These people have just gotten so used to someone else feeding and clothing them, that they are just lost.
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, he's never hungry."
I'm 30 miles from the coast in SC. Hugo was a cat 5 storm. There was NO looting and trashing or anything like that. Lord Jesus, we were BUSY!! No one sat on their butt. We didn't DEMAND the government do something, anything. No one sat around and pointed fingers at what this agency did or didn't do. How absolutely useless is that?
Please don't think I don't feel for these people, I do. I just don't understand the lethargy I see. Nor the trashing.
If the wellfare system continues like it is today, do we see more of this type of behavior in the future? Can "middle class america" shoulder this responsibility? Speaking for myself, I don't want to.
How about this? Lets put welfare on a limited amount of time per person. If you are on wellfare, you have to go to school, or be apprenticed to a trade. Food stamps? ditto, also regulate what can and cannot be bought even down to name brands. More like the WIC program. The elderly? they are treated terribly in this country. The average elderly citizen in this country gets average of $10 foodstamps, if even that. What a slap in the face. And able bodied people loading buggy full after buggy full. GEEEEZ
Sorry for the rant.
terry