war?

[tilesnake]

Why is it when one president gets a knob job from an intern they want to impeach him and when another starts a war under false pretense and a couple thousand perfectly good kids die because of it no one mentions impeachment? :x:

[Sponsored Links]

[cx]

A rather warped set of national values would be my guess, Snake.

[fixit girl]

Perhaps if Clinton could have explained his extracurricular activities by using the word "freedom" a lot...

I frankly think he should be brought up on murder charges for what he has done and is continuing to do.

You're right tho', tilesnake. Where's his Kenneth Star and a big, giant published report? Where are the televised depositions?

[Shaughnn]

Hmm, wasn't the current nominee for the Supreme Court attatched ot Kenneth Starr's offices during that whole stupid waste of tax dollars? Millions of dollars spent to force a confession of extra-marital sex between consenting adults. And here we are now with the identity of active CIA agents being pushed onto the front pages of American newspapers to push a partisan agenda and President Bush has the audacity to say "it might not be a crime".
And if you Google for "Impeach Bush" you'll find that there's an awful lot out there to read about it. That damn 'liberal media" just doesn't seem to want to give those neer-do-well impeachers any airtime and are ignoring the groundswell.
http://www.impeachbush.org/
Shaughnn

[south]

Personally, I would rather have a leader who was in touch with his "needs" with his finger on the Big Red Button than someone who looks like they are in need of a little "sumthin' sumthin' ". Ultimately, I can't see how someone's "personal" life can affect the way they run the government. It's between the man and his wife: nobody else needed to know. Just hope it's all over soon and everybody comes home safe and sound, and the Iraqi people get on with reconstructing their country.

[tileguytodd]

Ya'll seem to forget one thing...........We were attacked
F*** with the bull,you get the Horn!!

The US is not the only country involved here.......Yes, we lead the pack but is every leader in every country a complete idiot and a bush puppet?

There far more going on than people realize and contrary to what seems to be the most popular topic for reason, Oil is a very small part of the why;s,where's and whens of the current military action.

Do you actually believe No response to an attack would be better than the Reckoning being called for?

[Bri]

is every leader in every country a complete idiot and a bush puppet?


Is that one of them there rhetorical questions Todd? :yeah: :devil: :nod:

[John K]

We better keep our eyes on, Iran, North Korea and China. Also there is a book out there that says the old nuke suitcase bombs that the Russians sold at their garage sale. Are now in the U.S and ready for the green light. It says there are about 20 of them. One would likley remove Manhattan from the map. :nod:

[jvcstone]

Ya'll seem to forget one thing...........We were attacked
F*** with the bull,you get the Horn!

Do you actually believe No response to an attack would be better than the Reckoning being called for?

Yes Todd, We were attacked. Just not by Iraq or Iraqis We were attacked by a group of radical Saudi Arabians being supported by the government of Afganistan. Not many took issue with our response in Afganistan, but many do take issue with the fact that when that operation could have been wrapped up, this administration was already too busy trying to justify their intent to invade a country that posed only a small and limited threat. If the goal was truly to make the world a safer place, there were several more worthy targets, but gee, they would have actually fought back. The key, I think, is the fact that Iraq was on the table from the first days of this administration, months beforethe unfortunate events on 9-11 opened the door. This administration is steeped in a stink so great that unless cleaned up soon, will choke this once great nation. But the radical right's finely honed propaganda machine keeps the flocks attention diverted. Beware the rise of the brown shirted republican youth corps. :x:
JVC

[Shaughnn]

Ya'll seem to forget one thing...........We were attacked
F*** with the bull,you get the Horn!!
Todd,
I mean this with all due respect, but I honestly thought you were smarter than this statement suggest. :) The "Bull/Horns" brandishing is a bit ludicrous, especially in this context. If me and a few truckloads of buddies stormed into Warba, ousted your mayor, arrested and harrassed your clergy, closed down your newspaper and opened our own that wasn't reflective of your community's views, abused your neighbors, bribed your children to challenge your family-held values and commandeered all the fishponds and forests surround Warba for our own enrichment, would we be correct in calling you and your neighbors "insurgents" for opposing us??? Just a thought. :)
Can you point to any legitimate links between Saddam and the terrorists of September 11th? Not those sound-bites that the White House has flooded talk radio and cable entertainment with, but real factual documentation? Can the eagle of Freedom really soar with so much bullshit hung around it's neck?
Just a pinko, I suppose,
Shaughnn

[jd77]

This administration is steeped in a stink so great that unless cleaned up soon, will choke this once great nation. But the radical right's finely honed propaganda machine keeps the flocks attention diverted. Beware the rise of the brown shirted republican youth corps. :x:
JVC

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


You libs are just too funny :shades:

Also - too smart by half :yeah:


Just another opinion

[jd77]

Todd,
I mean this with all due respect, but I honestly thought you were smarter than this statement suggest. :)
Shaughnn


Oh yeah - forgot insulting too :shake:

[Shaughnn]

JD,
There is no insult. I honestly respect Todd and I've learned a great deal from him over the past year-and-a-half that I've known him through this forum. But should I fawn all over him and never utter a critical word against him just because he's venerable and it wouldn't be polite? I don't expect that Todd is someone who likes to be surrounded by swarmy "yes men". He's a straight-talker and I hope he appreciates my criticism in that vein?
Shaughnn

[John Bridge]

Let's keep personalities out of it, folks. :)

I'm not a lib, and I don't go along with the war in Iraq. I was all for the invasion of Afghanistan and would still back an invasion of Pakistan, but Iraq has nothing to do with it at all. :)

[terryc]

I don't pretend to be a very political person, and gee I don't really want to be :p , but has anyone checked out whats going on in China? These cats are ready willin and able for a major war. Are we? We're down to shipping our national guard to Iraq :bang: . Too many military bases have been shut down. It is no longer a question of IF a nuclear bomb is going to happen, but when and where. It will happen and probably sooner rather than later. I don't know where to go to get real answers, our media is so definitly NOT a reliable source. So what is?
The only thing I do know is that I am tired of being one of a flock of sheep blindly and meekly following country leaders I no longer believe have this country's best interrest at heart. The majority of them seem to have thier own self interrest as the top priority. Bush included, as much as I hate to say that, seeing as how I have been a republican for most of my voting life. This is more from going with the lesser of two evils than a strong belief in the republicans tho.
I am one that is most definitly open minded tho. I'd love to see this country turn it around. I don't believe its going to happen by itself tho.
terry

[John Bridge]

Welcome aboard, Terry. :)

[tileguytodd]

Shaughnn, First let me say this
I take no offense at your statement although your emotions regarding the issue perhaps clouded your judgement in its wording.I know you and know that you are passionate and that passion sometimes gets the best of you.Do i feel you meant it as a personal attack?? No I do not.

Am I for the War?? No, I am not, However I am also not going to play into the hands of propaganda in any way shape or form so long as 1 of our soldiers are over there.
Right or wrong as to the reasons we are there are being sold by everyone, including the Iraq freedom fighters who are calling this action a Holy war.

Nothing when it comes to a War, a police action or a military intervention is as cut and dry as any individuals opinion.
There is an awful lot of "Truth" floating around out there but it is the "Truth as one person or a group of people see it(some of these folks well respected and others known cause fanatics that will be out saving the spotted blue lemming next week).
If i believed for 1 second that these people had the truth,the whole truth and nothing but the truth i would pay attention.I dont see it that way however.I see opportunistic political assault in everything I have read.

Perhaps I am not smart enough to figure out which part of the truth is real and which part is theatrics,I am smart enough to know that An America Divided is the only hope the Iraqi freedom fighters( one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist) have of keeping thier new recruits coming in and being able to continue thier struggle.
A divided America has always been our biggest weakness and at the moment, I see those posturing for the political downfall of the Chief of Staff as the ones who will cause this action to continue for much longer than may have been possible with a united america.

Wether George W was right or wrong in deciding on this course of action is for history to decide because at this point I really dont think any New American Leader is going to come in and say......... "Oops, we made a mistake" and we have impeached the culprit is going to change the fighter's minds as to who the great satan of the world is or the continued attacks that will follow when they are left to thier own devices to train a new generation of terrorist's willing to Die killing civilians as some kind of statement.

If me and a few truckloads of buddies stormed into Warba, ousted your mayor, Do you promise :)

Can you point to any legitimate links between Saddam and the terrorists of September 11th?
No, however
Can you prove with absolute certainty he had nothing to do with it?

[dufus]

I'm not sure what to say. I have written this post many times and then deleted it. All I can say is:

I have faith still in those who are seeking to bring liberty to the Iraqis and to protect our forces there. I am not ignorant - unlike those whose opinions are based solely on public information. Rather, I wish those that don't have all the information could have faith instead of suspicion.

I love peace and liberty equally. And either one is worth fighting for - if necessary. Those who say otherwise have never experienced the lack of them.

There are no simple answers to thousands of years of conflict and suffering. At least none that governments can provide.

I want all US personnel to come home immediately, but I also know that hope isn't realistic. I also know that every means possible is being taken to get them home soon - without greater turmoil and unrest to the region.

Yes, I still have faith and it drives me to help us, as a nation, be better and safer. I wish we all had a conviction to work to resolve this quickly and appropriately - rather than just exit without any concern for the consequences. Imagine what a nation of persons with conviction could do to focus our efforts on a common goal. The goal - of bringing everyone home - is worth it.

[Shaughnn]

Wow Todd,
What exactly are you "putting up with". You seem to have employed your moderator powers to delete a post which was critical of yourself and which had less profanity than 2 of your own last 3 posts. I guess this conversation is over then?
Shaughnn :)

[Muny]

One day y'all are gonna have to explain why you don't consider Hussein a terrorist.
While you're at it, tell me why you keep insisting if he didn't have anything to do with Sept 11, we should have left him alone.
And then, please tell me how those Kurds were killed. Not to mention all those folks found in those mass graves.

[Shaughnn]

Hi Muny,
It's good to hear from you again and I hope that your son is well?
Saddam Hussain was a tyrant and a despot and a truely terrible person. He was also the elected leader of a soverign nation. Even though the conditions of the elections he won are suspect, he was none-the-less their president in title and power. Certainly also, he was very guilty of "crimes against humanity" and if the United States subscribed to the world court we might have used that recourse to unseat him. But we don't subscribe to that court because we (the United States) would become vulnerable to suit in that court for our own "crimes against humanity" at Hiroshima, Nagasaki, the Philipines, Panama and our own indigenous peoples (cases which are all filed but being held up by bureaucrats and diplomats sympathetic to the United States).Why should we have left Saddam Hussain's Iraq alone if he had nothing to do with terrorist acts commited against the United States? Because he had nothing to do with the attacks, obviously. There are over a dozen equally despicable tyrants holding power over other nations currently. Should we dive across their borders also and bring them "freedom" and McDonalds. Or do we grudgingly respect those borders and employ diplomatic means to affect change? Have you heard about the death toll in Sudan yet? How about the degree of famine in North Korea? Wasn't President Clinton tore apart by some here at home for sending United States troops to Somalia and Bosnia to preserve life and subdue oppersion?
Yes, Saddam Hussain used chemical weapons against the Kurdish people in Northern Iraq. Again, a "crime against humanity" according to the rest of the civilized world but entirely Saddam's right under Iraqi law. Some cultures see the social freedoms given to women here in the United States as "criminal" Good thing we've got those borders to keep track of where which people's rules will apply, isn't it?
And what about Vladamir Putin and his convienient stockpile of chemical weapons when he needed them to reclaim the Moscow opera house from Checen seperatists. How many civilians were needlessly killed in that demonstration of "strength"? How many times has Putin enjoyed bar-b-que down in Crawford, Texas with the Bushes since then?
I suppose "terrorist" and "soverign" are both relative to where you are sitting, aren't they?
Shaughnn ;)

[Airborne]

And then, please tell me how those Kurds were killed. Not to mention all those folks found in those mass graves.
I didn't get the opportunity to operate in the northern sector with the Kurds, but did spend considerable time in the south with the Marsh Arabs, as some have refered to the Shites south of the Euphrates who were heavily oppressed along with the Kurds. (all you environmentalists out there do a bit of research about the environmental devastation the Baathists wrought on the marshes in southern Iraq in an effort to deprive the Shites of their livelyhoods and way of life).

The unit with which I served in the last go-round was tasked with taking down the Iraqi equivelant of our Langley. Unfortunately, after we secured our objective, somebody decided that we were winning too fast and too decisively (routing what at the time some said was the 5th largest standing army in the world, using the Soviet's main-line arms) and therefore imposed an "operational pause" combined with a limit of advance to give the enemy an opportunity to save themselves. For me, this meant our entourage could not venture north of the Euphrates River. Just across the river to our northwest lay a town of over 20,000 Shites. When the Republican Guards realized after a day or so that we were not pursuing them, they returned to the town, shelled it for a solid 18 hours and re-took it from the rag-tag Shite crowd who for a moment (mistakenly) thought they'd rid themselves of the Sunni dominated regime.

For the next 36 hours I personally witnessed some of the most debased behavior I've every observed. I personally saw mixed groups of men, women and children lined up and summarily shot; persons of all ages hung from the powerlines and indescriminate shelling. I'm not relating "a guy in my unit saw" or "I heard about..." This is stuff I saw. After a day and a half, we were ordered to fall back and a week later I was back in the world, like nothing had happened. If I hadn't gotten all torn up on another camping trip, I'd be back there in a heartbeat.

I've held my fire to this point, but this is my one rant. I hope I've not stepped on any toes, cause I really do respect everybody here from Shaughnn to Todd and all between, but real people (Iraqi people) have been crapped on for a quarter century and the biggest screw up in my lifetime was not finishing the job and rebuilding the country in 1990. We would have likely not prevented 9-11, but in my mind 9-11 is not part of the equation. The equation is the same as France lending us a hand during our break with England; there are three and a half provences that are like the wild west, the rest of the country is as safe as we are in many semi-lawless parts of this country.

One more observation: The right and the left are equally guilty of glossing over the pain, cost, and drudgery of improving the lot of an oppressed people. I'm sure I won't change anybody's mind, but from my conversations with my buddies who are returning from their 3rd and 4th tours (now, come to think of it, there is something similar to Viet Nam....the Special Forces operators volunteering for repeated tours....hmmm)
conditions on the ground for the average Joe Iraqi are in fact better and improving. I won't even start on A-stan. Funny how the only thing we hear about is a bumper crop of poppies (no mention of the bumper crop of legit foodstuffs, though in fact the best harvest is expected since GKhan rolled into town) and some operators who get shot down hot on the tail of Waldo.... It never ceases to amaze me how the feminist movement world wide has failed to tout the gains women have made in Afghanistan; I am not saying I am advising my daughter to move there, but it is laughable to deny any improvement!

edit Shaughnn, I'm not going to argue about the domestic response to Clinton's ventures abroad, only to say that Bosnia and Somalia were glaring examples (from the inside perspective of a participant) of use of the military for political ends. Similarly Haiti was a complete disaster from a military perspective due to the half-hearted commitment of resources. Whether a personal agrees with being in Iraq/A-stan or not, an objective observer cannont conclude that the commitment in either theater is half-hearted from a strictly military sense (rules of engagement, material commitment, rotational schedule, etc). end edit

Okay, rant over. I'll stay away from these threads so we all stay friends.... :yeah: Anybody got some tips on how to properly execute a textbook perfect Jersey Mudjob?

[kquilts]

I understand the frustration over the war. We are in a no win situation.

Clinton LIED under oath. Normal people go to jail for telling lies under oath. Should the President of the United States not be held responsible for telling the truth? He was also working in a government office while having sex. That is just not acceptable. Any other person in the Country would have been FIRED for that. I can't believe anyone would think that kind of behavior is acceptable at work. Karen

[Shaughnn]

Art,
Thank you. I've learned from your post and it will likely affect how I see things in the future.
About the Bosnian, Somalian and Haitian (forgot about that) affairs, I was only using them as an example. It seems hypocritical that so many have bought into the rational thar we are currently in Iraq to bring them freedom, democracy and cute little birdies and many from those same camp were venomous about our involvement in those other hell-holes. I work with quite a few refugee Bosnians and the few who will talk about their leaving are haunted by those memories. It's eerie to see such a hollow look from a normally granite-jawed co-worker when you accidently ask if they have any brothers or sisters.
Shaughnn

[John K]

Art,

Thanks for your input from a " boots on the ground" perspective. Well written and informative. Thank you for your service to our country. :)

[Scooter]

None of you guys get it.

President Clinton lied under oath. President Clinton had sex in the Oval Office. President Clinton was unfaithful in his marriage. President Clinton embarrassed the office of the Presidentcy and our nation.

President George Bush is a couragous fighter of terrorism. While he did get some bad information from the CIA (a Clinton appointee I might add) and the WMD wasn't there and there was no formal link to Al Queda, this war is a war against terrorism in Iraq and Sadaam Huisein was a bad guy. It is better that we fight those guys over there then at the Golden Gate Bridge. As our President has said (and this is one of his more spiritual quotes) "If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure." We are over there now, there is no turning back and we have to finish the job.

Anyone who criticizes the war dishonors the sacrifices that our brave military men have already made, is un-American, and such criticism borders on treason.

Now, I don't believe in any of this baloney, but many do.

[bbcamp]

Now, I don't believe in any of this baloney, but many do.

Phew, that was close!

[LadyGodiva]

I almost believed it :sick: :D

[John Bridge]

Art, I think you know I respect you and the many other folks who have come and gone a few times. But there is no connecting Afghanistan and Iraq. Afghanistan was a logical choice, given that the Taliban and Al Qaida were headquartered there and there was no question that they has declared war against us. They were a direct threat to the United States.

Iraq, I'm afraid, is not that way and never was. No matter how miserable the people of Iraq were under Saddam, and no matter how mean and ornery Saddam was/is, there was never a direct threat to the United States. Even if WMDs had in fact existed, the Iraqis would not have been capable of mounting an attack against us.

Let me put it this way. If Bush had gone to Congress and the American people and said, hey, Saddam is a terrible guy, and he's torturing and killing his own people, and the right thing to do would be to go over there and take him out, that would have been a valid plea. Bush knew, of course, that Congress would not approve overwhelming force, though, in that case. So he goes the route he did, and invades the place under false pretenses, all the time emphasizing his "war on terror." I don't buy it, buddy. :)

[jvcstone]

________________ (fill in the blank)
is a terrible guy, and he's torturing and killing his own people, and the right thing to do would be to go over there and take him out, :)

Now isn't that a great presidend to establish. Everyone under 40 should prepare for the draft cause if that's all the justification it takes to invade a country, there is a mighty long list.

And I wonder if Saddam killed near as many of his country men as we have liberating them from Saddam. Some 150,000 now many of them women and children and other non-combatants, not to mention the torture we are subjecting prisoners of war to. Any one else hearing the pot calling the kettle black??? :uhh: :twitch:
JVC

[Airborne]

... But there is no connecting Afghanistan and Iraq....
I apologize if I left the impression that I was connecting the two. I thought I made the distinction by stating that I have no belief that our current invasion of Iraq has any relation to 9-11 and even if we had 'finished' the job the first time, I doubt 9-11 or a similar attack would have been averted. A-stan was the proper response to 9-11, Iraq was taking out the trash left by the last tennant....or the one before, actually.

I'll try to restate more clearly; I believe we were in Iraq the first time for the right reasons: Iraq invaded it's neighbor, Iraq's leadership was due a thumping due to the invasion of Kuwait and while we were there thumpin' we might as well relieve the oppression of the Kurds/Shites. (I know, Iraq is an arbatrarily defined nation/state foisted upon a collection of independent people groups, but we've gotta play with the cards delt at the table at which we are seated...). So my position is (and I know it isn't how GWBush's folks packaged the PR campaign) that we are there right now to 1) finish what was started in 90/91, 2) destabilize the other despotic regimes in the area, and 3) hopefully bring some aid and comfort to a beleagered people who've been pounded by years of despotism, sanctions, a ten year waste of a war with Iran, etc. No trivial solutions to trivial problems...geopolitics is no exception.

BTW, I certainly don't believe opponents of the war are unpatriotic; I even think Cindy Sheehan has a place in the mix, though I deeply disagree with her stated policy objective. I'm proud to have the opportunity to compare opinions in the company of others who disagree; I've got no problem even with the "haters" on both sides, though I don't think they accomplish much other than increasing the background noise in the room. They didn't bring down Clinton, haven't brought down Bush, and I'm not so sure they ever will have a direct impact on the grand scheme of things.

It truely is a great land in which we live.

[LadyGodiva]

Art, I think you know I respect you and the many other folks who have come and gone a few times. But there is no connecting Afghanistan and Iraq. Afghanistan was a logical choice, given that the Taliban and Al Qaida were headquartered there and there was no question that they has declared war against us. They were a direct threat to the United States.

Iraq, I'm afraid, is not that way and never was. No matter how miserable the people of Iraq were under Saddam, and no matter how mean and ornery Saddam was/is, there was never a direct threat to the United States. Even if WMDs had in fact existed, the Iraqis would not have been capable of mounting an attack against us.

Let me put it this way. If Bush had gone to Congress and the American people and said, hey, Saddam is a terrible guy, and he's torturing and killing his own people, and the right thing to do would be to go over there and take him out, that would have been a valid plea. Bush knew, of course, that Congress would not approve overwhelming force, though, in that case. So he goes the route he did, and invades the place under false pretenses, all the time emphasizing his "war on terror." I don't buy it, buddy. :)


Thank you John :bow: :bow: :bow:

[Muny]

Shaughnn, my son is doing fine. Thanks for asking. He's due to come home this fall. (I tried to find a link to articles about his accident and fell sadly short.)
As for this war in Iraq, and the justification for it...
We know Hussein had WMDs. He used them before, and I personally find it hard to believe that he used every last drop ( I am aware that gasses, etc have short shelf lifes), as well as removed/lost any and all resources to acquire more.
We know Zarkawie (sorry, I am sure I mispelled that) was in Iraq prior to the start of the war. He was even given medical treatment for injuries he obtained in Afghanistan.
We know Hussein offered OBL sanctuary, even though they would not be considered friends.
Convoys were seen leaving Iraq in the months before the war began. Did that not make you suspicious? What about the jets covered in sand? The empty warheads? What would harmless Iraq need with empty warheads?
We know Hussein offered monetary rewards to familes of suicide bombers.
He held US hostages in the past.
He violated each and every ( I believe 17 was the magic number)UN resolution set forth after ceasefire agreements made after Desert Storm. Did you never once wonder why he kept kicking out the inspecters?

And as for the mention of other dangerous dictators, why even ask? If you feel taking care of Huseein is wrong, apparently it would be equally as wrong to take care of any others. As for me, yes, I would wish to systematically drive out each and every evil dictator and/or terrorist in the world. I would wish for them to know they have nowhere to run or hide.
Does it have to have something to do with direct immediate revenge in order for it to be justified? Do we just go through life not giving a damn about anyone except ourselves? I'm sorry, but I don't want to be that way, ever.

(edited to add: this is part of an email we received from my son after his accident in Iraq. I don't think any articles exist anymore on the internet. Certainly none with this much detail. I have a rather lenghthy article I copy/pasted about the recovery of the vehicle, but like I said, it's very long)

...for those of you that don't know, my vehicle (M1A1 Bradley) was on the way to a raid on the 24th at around 2000hrs. the driver (****) jammed on the brakes, i'm not sure why, i couldn't see because I was located in the back with the rest of the dismounts. The vehicle rolled over into a canal. Water rushed in, we panicked. I was lucky enough to be able to keep my nose in an air pocket only about 3 inches deep. I blacked out. Same thing happened to **** Not sure how or why, but I got very lucky. I was clinically dead when they pulled my body from the vehicle. But because of the cold water, they say it preserved my body so to speak and kept me 'alive'. The doctors revived me and med-evac'd me to Balad Air Base in iraq. I was in a coma for about 9 hours and woke up surrounded by doctors. So far my injuries are small, but enough to send me back to germany for further evaluation...

[LadyGodiva]

I love this :D

Because he's hiding.
-- Bush's explanation as to why Bin Laden has not been caught. Air Force One, January 14, 2005

[Muny]

Is there a better answer? Nevermind...rhetorical question.

[davem]

Muny, I somehow didn't know about your son. I'm so glad he's doing well. :)

[Scooter]

The some 150,000 civilians we killed in the war were collateral damage. They weren't intentionally targeted.

As much as I think our President is a complete moron and wrong for going into this stupid war, he may be a lot of things, but a war criminal he is not.

[tilesnake]

If Sadam is just as big a murdering pile of shit today as much as he was ten twelve years ago why the hell did we go there twice?!. Are we just thinning out our herds of kids? To much surplus? Politics as usual!, Did they find any paint thinner over there yet?

[Scooter]

When I was over there in '69, my mom justified the war to me in letters and to her friends and neighbors by saying:

We have to defeat communism there. Better there than at Golden Gate Bridge. We'll be fighting the commies in the streets unless we stop communist aggression in VietNam.

The North Vietnamese are bad people. They kill thousand of their own with whole villages that don't disagree with communism wiped out. This is a genocide and we must stop it.

Ho Chi Min is a dictator, he wasn't freely elected and we have to kill him to save the country.

We are bringing peace, prosperity and freedom to area, which needs and which will change the whole area as a beacon of liberty.

Sounds familiar doesn't it? She and I got into raging letter wars over it, and she needed to justify the war to justify me being there. Me, I attributed to me being there to bad luck and a low draft number.

When I was old enought to read scholarly books on the subject I learned that this was really a civil war, and a war of independence. Ho Chi Min would have sided with us, against the communists, if we had only given him our backing against the French in 1954. Sadly we blew him off and drove him into the arms of the communists. Although we were in favor of elections, no elections were ever held after 1954--just one military dictator after another in the South. The South Vietnam troops never wanted to fight the North--just themselves, and it was a religious civil war with catholics fighting buddists. It was a war that should have never been fought and we never could have won, because we misunderstood the independence issue, the civil war issue, and the religous issues. Sigh.

We send out between 5-10 packages to our troops in Iraq every week and are currrently writing to about 30 soldiers. I so hope they can win, but at least in my judgment the situation over there is unwinable for many of the same reasons I directly experience in South Vietnam. Sigh.

[LadyGodiva]

Scooter thanks for writing that.

[John Bridge]

Well, as you know, I was a lifer when I went to Nam, and I fully believed we were over there to do great things. It took me all of three months to figure out what was really going on, and then I hated it. What a total waste of time, talent, money and lives.

[oakview]

I realize this is a very serious (and worthy) discussion you all are having, one topic that not everyone will ever agree on and is the cause of some serious issues between friends on occasion. Trying to lighten the air, someone has come up with a photo to spoof the disagreement for a moment or two...

[Muny]

Muny, I somehow didn't know about your son. I'm so glad he's doing well. :)
Thank you Dave. :)

[JNPremodeling]

"If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure."

Well, I hate to break this to anyone that really believes that that statement is "Oh so enlightening" (Scooter I read it to the end, and I don't mean you :) ). If you don't succeed.....YOU FAILED. There's no third direction. It's not a risk....it's a fact...you failed. :)

[John Terry]

Oil
Oil
Oil
Oil

American Oil Dependency

The conection between Afghanistan and Iraq are quite clear and have nothing to do with terrorism or WMD what so ever!!! Terrorism was only ever a smoke screen to cause fear in the population so they would back anything and to cover the lies of the Administration - remember this one - Hussein has WMD and can launch a strike in 45 minuites Ha ha ha! and the other one by Bush - combat opertations are officially over - in which case 'whats all the death and fighting for thats still happening'.

The connection is quite simply oil and oil pipelines - surley by now everyone can see that.

There seems to be some sort of search and reasoning to find an alternative theory to the 'big oil grab', Why???? Just face the facts!

Its time that people woke up to the reality of the situation, that this is a an excercise in American geopolitical domination or should I say an excercise to maintain American hyperpower. The threats to the Pax American hegemony are growing and the biggest one is not terrorism or Isalm its the diminishing natural resources and the rise of China and India, who mmaybe in the not to distant future will be able to challenge American power on their own terms!!.

[John K]

John Terry,

If its about oil, their asses better start grabbing some cause I just paid 2.99 per gal last night to fill my wifes gas guzzling suv. :tongue:

China and India? Don't know much about India as a threat other than to Pakistan, but China, North Korea and Iran should be on the radar. :twitch:

[Muny]

Oil
Oil
Oil
Oil

American Oil Dependency

The conection between Afghanistan and Iraq are quite clear and have nothing to do with terrorism or WMD what so ever!!! Terrorism was only ever a smoke screen to cause fear in the population so they would back anything and to cover the lies of the Administration - remember this one - Hussein has WMD and can launch a strike in 45 minuites Ha ha ha! and the other one by Bush - combat opertations are officially over - in which case 'whats all the death and fighting for thats still happening'.

The connection is quite simply oil and oil pipelines - surley by now everyone can see that.

There seems to be some sort of search and reasoning to find an alternative theory to the 'big oil grab', Why???? Just face the facts!

Its time that people woke up to the reality of the situation, that this is a an excercise in American geopolitical domination or should I say an excercise to maintain American hyperpower. The threats to the Pax American hegemony are growing and the biggest one is not terrorism or Isalm its the diminishing natural resources and the rise of China and India, who mmaybe in the not to distant future will be able to challenge American power on their own terms!!.
You need help. Seriously.

[John Bridge]

I think John Terry owes us money for using more than the average bear's worth of space. And Muny has to help him pay. Flatfloor is the purser.

:D

[John Terry]

I think John Terry owes us money for using more than the average bear's worth of space. And Muny has to help him pay. Flatfloor is the purser.

:D


Can I pay with oil? :)


How about 1cc per letter multiplied by font size

[John Terry]

You need help. Seriously.


You do Muny!

No you need pity as a victim of the most gross media manipulation perpertrated this century.

You are full of nationalistic hubris over the deeply Orwelian, dogmatic neo-con, neo-colonial agenda and you don't even know it!!

We come in peace but shoot to kill!!

Iraq has undergone US economic colonisation.


Do you not think there is a US hegemony?

Have you not heard of the 'New American Century'?

And the planned invasion of Iraq well before 9/11?

The only reason anyone went to Iraq in 1990/91 was to protect the oil. And if they wanted rid of Hussein why didn't they do it then?

Why has the reconstruction money conveniently bipassed the reconstruction of the war damaged oil processing infrastructure of Iraq?

Why is it that we pump oil out of Iraq, refine and sell it back to them?






"You can fool all the American people some of the time, and some of the American people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time". Abraham Lincoln

"You can fool some of the people all the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." George W. Bush

[LadyGodiva]

Terry, that was a good post. I always told my daddy that not all Americans were blind. He used to think they were.

[John Terry]

Thankyou, I appreciate that! :cool:

[jd77]

We come in peace but shoot to kill!!

Iraq has undergone US economic colonisation.

Do you not think there is a US hegemony?

Have you not heard of the 'New American Century'?

And the planned invasion of Iraq well before 9/11?

The only reason anyone went to Iraq in 1990/91 was to protect the oil. And if they wanted rid of Hussein why didn't they do it then?

Why has the reconstruction money conveniently bipassed the reconstruction of the war damaged oil processing infrastructure of Iraq?

Why is it that we pump oil out of Iraq, refine and sell it back to them?




I don't think those thoughts are original.

Looks to me like you copied a bunch of bumper stickers from Saabs, Volvos and VWs :)