Need help with shower grout/sealant

[john2454]

Looks like a nice forum here with much expert guidance.

Here's my situation, sorry for the long winded epistle:

House has crawl space (not cement slab). Sub-floor replaced and joists reinforced under complete bathroom floor.

Bathroom renovated March 2004. Tub & wall tile removed and replaced with custom built shower.

Contractor grouted all tile with blue sanded grout. He claimed he added sealer to the grout when he mixed it.

Contractor caulked vertical corners & wall-to-floor joints which are approx ¼” wide with almond acrylic caulk.

Wife didn't like the contrast of almond & blue grout so she dug out and replaced with same sanded blue grout. Of course cracks formed in those areas, especially along the floor. We did not apply any sealer to wife’s grout.

We were using the shower daily and noticed that the grout in the wall-to-floor joints would never dry out. Cracks were getting wider.

In January, we hired a local “contractor” that charged us $375 to apply an “epoxy sealer” called “Lady Dry” to all grout lines (shower walls, shower floor, bathroom walls & bathroom floor). That held for about 6 months. Then his “sealer” started pealing off near the floor joints. (See attached pics)

We were promised a 5 year warranty. Repeated telephone calls and messages have gone unanswered. We were taken for $375 and now cannot use the shower.

In desperation, I recently visited Home Depot and explained all this to the tile guy. He was one of the most considerate HD employees I’d ever encountered. He said I should:
1. Use my Dremel to remove the epoxy sealer, creating a groove that will accept fresh blue sanded grout;
2. Apply 3 coats of TileLab SurfaceGard Penetrating Sealer (w/ Teflon);
http://www.acehardware.com/sm-tilelab-surfacegard-penetrating-sealer--pi-1442861.html
3. Apply TilePerfect Adhesive Caulk which is available in a blue sanded formula.

Comments? Suggestions? Alternatives?

Thanks very much for your time & expertise,

John

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/johno697/ShowerGrout3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/johno697/ShowerGrout4.jpg

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[kelso]

Sorry to hear about that John. Welcome and glad to meet you though I must confess I am not the most experienced in the bunch. As a matter of fact I have learned a lot of what I know from these guys and from John's new book (I recommend it highly). First the epoxy sealer was doomed from the start if the grout was already cracking. Second why is it cracking? I may just not know that trick but I've never mixed sealer in my grout and my showers aren't cracking. Besides I am under the understanding that you can't seal fresh grout unless you use a product like SureSeal. It seems to me there is an issue with movement in your tile from poor adhesion, too much wall deflection, bad setting materials, or something else. It could be that the grout she used was mixed improperly, hopefully it wasn't that premixed stuff that sets aound and dries out before being used. But I would be concerned about movement in the tile before I tried to regrout. Find the places of greatest cracking and get real close to it while pushing on the tile where it is cracking and look for very movement. If it moves then you have problems other than bad grout. How long was the original grout in before she replaced it and why did she remove it in the first place if it was the caulk she disliked? Thirdly if you remove the grout there are much easier and less messy ways than a Dremel. You will have dust everywhere. There is a blade called Grout Grabber or something like that that you put in a Sawzall and Fein Multimaster tools have a carbide grout removal tool but you are into it for the initial $250 for the tool and $50 for the blade so if you have a Dremel I guess you might want to just use it. Hope any of that helps. If not someone shoud be along shortly to help you out and set me straight. :idea: James

[doitright]

Hi John, Welcome! :)

The first thing that concerns me from your picture is the shower drain. Looks like a tub pop up drain. If so, I would like to know more of how the shower pan was constructed, as well as the liner that was used.

What part of the country are you in?

Is this wood frame construction on concrete slab, or wood floor joists?

I'm not familiar with sealers mixed in with grout, only applied afterwards.

Is the white showing, almond caulk residual or efflorescence? If you scrape it, what happens?

I need more details to help evaluate.

[john2454]

John & James,

Thanks for your quick responses.

I live in Florida.

If I remember right, the shower pan was constructed from: new pressure treated subflooring on top of reinforced wood floor joists, Durrock, then a gray rubber (poly?) liner that extended 3" past the top of the newly built 24" front (stepover) wall.

The popup drain was installed because we wanted to be able to use this new shower as a tub. The tile guy had used this particular model in other jobs. We've only used it as a tub once, a few months after the job was completed.

The white that's showing is the filler (probably white grout) that the epoxy sealer guy applied prior to his epoxy sealer. Before we hired him, I had removed some of the original blue grout that was cracking. I was careful to NOT penetrate the liner. I believe he did not permit the filler to cure enough before he applied his epoxy.

I don't believe there is excessive tile movement other than "slight" flexing of the floor when I step into the shower. I am 6'-8", 265 lbs! Am told that some flexing can be expected unless there's a concrete slab instead of crawlspace w/ wooden joists.

I already bought a few Dremel grout removal bits a while back. I'm prepared to grind out the floor-to-wall groutline and redo with whatever you recommend.

I'm hoping to create a "flexible" joint that will: 1. seal against water intrusion; 2. match the rest of the Ocean Blue grout; 3. minimize mildewing.

Thanks again for your help.

John

[claycarson]

I am not crazy about the fact that sanded grout was used for the walls. Wider joints require it to bridge the gap, but it makes regrouting less fun, to say the very least. Impossible unless you enjoy root canal without novacaine, more likely.

Grout Grabber may be an option, but I would be shocked if anyone could use it without scratching the sides of the tiles....anyone who's used it successfully for a wall regrout, speak up and say so here - I'm dying to talk to you about it if so.

[Davestone]

John, you can take out the grout at the wall to wall joints, and the floor to wall joints,and caulk with color caulk,which can be bought to match almost any color grout.However for a tub use, you may be better off with straight silicone,which could be applied over the grout joint, after you take most of the grout out, but leave a base of grout for color.Now,like John K. i'm not familiar with a toe drain that will accept a shower pan....i looked for one when i built my Roman tub, and couldn't find one...i'm not saying they don't exist.What we're getting at is that there may be a leak at that drain one of these days. :)

[john2454]

Reply to Davestone & claycarson: Thanks for your hints.

Where could I find a suitable caulk to match the Polyblend Ocean Blue #90 that is in there now?

I promise to never, never use the shower as a tub. I just want my shower back!!

I believe the popup drain was installed and sealed similar to a fixed drain.

[Davestone]

Maybe a COLOR CAULK website..or a local tile distributor, i think even Lowes has color caulks. :)

[doitright]

Color caulks are available from Mapei, Hydroment, Laticrete and a few other grout manufactures. Others are made to order.

Here is one link: http://www.centurapaint.webpage66.com/page/page/1306846.htm

I'll see if I can find more.

[cx]

I don't believe there is excessive tile movement other than "slight" flexing of the floor when I step into the shower. I am 6'-8", 265 lbs! Am told that some flexing can be expected unless there's a concrete slab instead of crawlspace w/ wooden joists. There should be no flexing of a properly built shower floor, John. Not even for large persons.

My opinion; worth price charged.

[john2454]

Not even just a little cracking?

What causes cracking between a tub and the tile wall? I thought that's why flexible caulk was used on those transitions instead of grout.

I'm ready to setup an outdoor shower under my large camphor tree!!

[doitright]

Hi John :)

In a wood frame house, we always caulk perimeter corners as they're susceptable to movement.

[john2454]

Reply to doitright:

I contacted the folks at Centura Paint. They can match my grout color based on my using a Behr paint chip as a sample.

They recommend the Color Matched Urethane Acrylic Caulk over the Siliconized Acrylic Caulk. They say "urethane has better sealing qualities for use in moisture prone areas."

Based on your experience and my needs, do you agree with their recommendation?

Thanks very much,

John

[doitright]

Hi John :)

We normally use urethane caulks in exterior applications. It will definitely be more durable than the siliconized acrylic caulk. It's more difficult to work with though. Try to mask off your areas, and have the caulk as warm as possible. Also have some clean rags and mineral spirits (paint thinner) handy.

Check on the cure time before subjecting to water from the shower.