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Mr. Overkill
06-14-2005, 07:37 PM
Well I guess I goofed up designing the master bath.

I guess thats a learning experience trying to do everything myself (new construction, trying to save $, designing plans and building on my own).

Budget is not what I hoped for after buying land, puting in a road, drilling a 200' well, puting in a septic tank, and bringing in the electricity (nearest electric pole was 1/4 mile away). No phone line going strictly cell phone.

As my budget was completely corflunked I decided to make the master bath very nice and do a generic kitchen (figured it would be easier and cheaper in the long run to remodel the kitchen a couple years down the road than it would the master bath. And if I'm wrong on that note - to late now -.

Anyway the master bath is only 6' x 11' - I paid so much attention to cramming as much as I could in the master bath (double sinks on vanity and a large shower which included a 4' x 4' glass block window to the outside, multiple shower heads and a steam generator)
I negected to visualize walking space in front of the toilet and the vanity which ends up being only 20" (pretty cramped) I'm not large but like my space. Also the rough-in for the toilet ended up being 15" off the finished wall (not finished yet) and 13" from shower door. As code say I'm going to need 18" from shower door I'm going to have to jackhammer and reset the toilet flange 5" over and 3" back.

Since I'm going through all that trouble anyway I'm thinking of putting in a wall hung toilet to gain extra space.

http://www.us.geberit.com/us/Webus.nsf/pages/prod-toil-tesse-1

Has anyone had any experience installing these and hows the flush (don't want to double flush all the time).

Advice is greatly appreciated

-David

P.S. also see my thread (Overthinking STEAM SHOWER and brain melted)

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Jules
06-14-2005, 08:15 PM
That's pretty sweet David.....for a toilet ;)

It does say a 2X6 stud wall....I imagine you read that. I've never installed one....but it looks like a good way to get the clearance you are looking for....and I really do like the "no tank sitting on the floor". Should be a breeze to keep clean.

geniescience
06-15-2005, 07:24 AM
hi David. I'm David too.

There are two models of wall-hung carrier, the 111.816 and the 110.816; they are not interchangeable. The Geberit Tessera model is one, and Geberit's 'concealed' carrier is the other -- for the OEM market, i.e. for competitors who manufacture beautiful porcelain bowls that hang on the wall without showing the Geberit name. E.g. Catalano, Flaminia, Toto, Duravit, Starck, Acorn, Porcher, Villeroy and Boch.
- Geberit has a third option, that has a flush valve if you don't mind the noise in a master bathroom. It is called Pressure Assist and its porcelain bowl looks industrial and commercial. Also using Flush valves are US manufacturers (like Kohler) who have been making them for decades. All these are too large (in depth, 26"+) for your space. Besides, they are ugly too.
- Perhaps better for your space would be a different wall tank altogether, only 3" or 4" thick (deep). So it is really worth looking at the Turkish and Australian competing wall-hung toilets. Names are Eczacibasi and Caroma. They are available in the USA, and you can find their distributors thru a Web search. Search engines respond well to "wall-hung" and "WC" together. Use the term wall-hung, or sospeso (in Italian), or Wand (in German) along with one of the names of Flaminia, Catalano, Toto, Duravit, Starck, Acorn, Porcher, Villeroy and Boch, Eczacibasi, and Caroma. The Eczacibasi and the Caroma 'water wafer' are worth a look. More about them later. The term 'rear disharge' will open your eyes to another world of possibilities that includes floor-mounted toilets that you can move around, not anchored to a specific drain location.

First, the advantages: 1.) Locating your toilet bowl where you want in 3-D, up, down, forward, backward; 2.) lots of room to play with your drain layout - to go around obstacles and to suit design issues; 3.) a couple interesting ways to play with your floor height using steps and curbs to suit your very specific issues so you can still go ahead and keep your existing flange set in concrete; 4.) the option of placing your concealed tank elsewhere (higher, over to the side, on an adjacent wall) so you can free up the wall space behind the bowl or recess the bowl even farther backwards in space.

I'll go through them one by one, briefly. I'll be glad to respond to more asking questions in the next few days to help you resolve the space management issues in your bath room design .
----

1.) Space, placement, location of wall-hung bowl and 2.) drain layout, to go around obstacles: You get to place your wall-mount (ha, ha i didn't say wall-hung) toilet seat wherever you want, and you can run the drain through walls and knee-walls and little steps or even through a (wide) shower threshold, curb, sill.. And you can do so as a last step, almost at the last minute -- just like you need to now. Except with the Tessera model (111.816). It needs to be located directly above its drain. With all the other models you enjoy a radius of space the lets you choose where to hang the bowl and where to place the drain pipe and how to position the curves of the drain pipe. For instance, let's say you want to let the drain drop 8" vertically first before going horizontal (with the 1/4" slope of course) over to where you have your existing toilet flange. You can do this. Geberit's OEM carrier (110.816) has a drain pipe that is designed to swivel, pivot, turn 45 degrees right from the top so you still get an 8" drop immediately while also getting an 8" side-to-side gain. This is visible on the pdf; look for the dotted lines. The higher you place the bowl the more inches you have to run the drain sideways after the initial vertical drop which is the essential factor in planning for a drain the flushes well. The Geberit 1-800 Tech-support guys will tell you this.

To hold the bowl firmly in space, the carrier uses a steel frame that is simple and straightforward. You could easily build another frame yourself, if you use metal. Before too long you will be re-inventing the vintage pull-chain toilet with the tank up high at ceiling height. :twitch: Except you will use the remote actuator and your ceiling-level tank will be concealed... :) Seriously, there are plumbing supply houses that will sell you each piece of a vintage ceiling tank kit separately. Rear spud, top spud, you name it, they got it. So ultimately you don't need Geberit; you do need the porcelain bowl (uh, duh, I could have told you that, he thinks to himself).

3.) Floor height, steps, curbs, to save existing drains As you know, the drain can go horizontally (with a 1/4" slope per foot) after a reasonable initial drop (e.g. 8" on a 45 degree angle). When the drain pipe is horizontal it could be concealed in a knee-wall, a box, a step, or a section of the floor raised a bit for another reason. -- Have you seen pictures of the toilet they sell for basements where the drain pumps upwards? These kits place a platform (a step) under a regular, floor-mount, toilet. Why I am mentioning them here is because they offer one advantage they never talk about, the ergonomics of having two floor levels under your feet so that tall and short people alike can sit comfortably, placing their feet either forward or backward to put their heels on or off the step. A 4" height. Or a 3" height if your main floor is built up ni any way. I'll try to get a photo of a recent install where the DIYer build the platform out so that a 10-year old and a basketball player would both feel comfortable on the seat. They just have two possible floor heights under them, the shorter one being closer to the back which is where it should be for short legs. I'm rambling. So, you can do this with a wall-hung toilet as well, and the step can be clearly designed to give you the ergonomics of having options. Try it with a thick phone book on the floor. You will like having a step option, helps to move your entire leg too. Helps you clear your 'system' when seated and performing, not just simulating reality.

4.) Putting your tank where you want it After you install the whole thing and it works fine, then you can detach the tank, leaving the frame to do its single most important function : holding the porcelain bowl firmly in place when a heavy person sits, stands or falls on it. All you need is some more pipe, a couple of connectors or reducers, and spare time. You can keep the same pipe diameter of 2" or reduce it to 1.5", this compensates for the increase in gravity. Not necessary. The senior tech support person at Geberit will tell you this has been done before, often in Europe. By the way, Jules who posted above will tell you that water is flexible and can find its way around corners easily. :) So will Jeff jdm. These are good guys, all DIYers who know how to think for themselves and do what makes sense and I would listen to them and all the others here.

One good reason to get rid of the "tank at chest height" is to enable you to do other things with the space available. I wish somebody would make a wall-hung toilet that is as small as the regular seat on a regular toilet (for instance, 17 inches deep from edge of tank to front of seat) and a few tank shapes that could be hung/attached anywhere else above the bowl like for instance on a side wall, up high, at ceiling height.

The bowl manufacturers all know that people like you need to save space, but they are only slowly trending towards getting there. In a few years from now, the in-wall frame and the sheetrock, added to the bowl's depth will all add up to a total that is several inches less than a floor-mount toilet placed in front of a wall. Today the wall+toilet total space is in the same range, 25"-32" including the wall. The smallest bowl in terms of depth available today on a Geberit frame is the Flaminia Mini-Link. (It is also a pleasure to sit on!). It is 485 mm, or 19 inches plus a fraction less than an eighth. If you put 1/4" Hardibacker on the wall you are now up to around 19.34". It fits on a Geberit 110.816.00.1 in-wall concealed carrier toilet tank frame, which takes as little as 4.875 inches in depth everywhere except where the 3" PVC pipe comes out of the toilet bowl and turns south (down, diagonally). At this one point you need another 1/2". If you ignore that for a moment, the total space required for the whole wall and toilet is about 24". And it is beautiful.
-- The Flaminia bowl is available to try out at Ramca (Ramacieri Soligo) in Montreal, a fine tile shop that expanded last year into plumbing and fixtures. The Geberit Tessera 111.816.00.1 is available to try out and flush at Terra in Montreal, a fine tile shop that expanded last year also into plumbing and fixtures with a sister shop called Acqua, next door.
-- The second smallest bowl is the Catalano Zero Light (500mm) but it has two problems: it is not comfortable (unless you have really weird hips, I don't know) and its white is not a standard warm white, it's cold blue-ish and they call it cotton (?!) The next largest is the Catalano Zero Domino at 540mm, 21.5" and it looks similar to Flaminia's Link and Mini-Link.

Kohler produced an innovation this winter that requires putting the plumbing supply pipe in the floor. It takes 24" by 16" floor footprint. I think it's centered around your floor drain. It is beautiful. They call it The Hatbox and that is its shape. A hatbox may solve your space constraints because there is no tank to get in the way when you walk around entering and leaving the shower. Getting rid of the tank is more than half the problem solved. Putting the bowl somewhere else is the other half.

To see a photo of an installed wall-hung toilet with its tank moved elsewhere and a drain that goes 'sideways' to reach the real, pre-existing, drain, search for Tool Talk, a back issue from November/December 2004 (Vol.17 No.6). In an article called Tough Tool Testers Found Nailer Wanting, Jon Eakes discusses raidant heating in floors, and then at the end an actual "Rear discharge toilet". Jon installed the Caroma. Its tank is thinner than 4" deep, although it is 22" wide. I think you can get to the article here http://www.homebuildercanada.com/1705TT.htm


I'm a consumer, doing his homework. I do not work in the industry.

I understand and accept that a builder or entrepreneur cannot afford to innovate unless pushed into doing so for multiple reasons. Normally, there is everything to lose and little to gain. I have a lot of respect for the DIYer who is wiling to push the limits, push the envelope. There is a lot to gain by innovating and trying things out, in your own space, on your own time. Mille mercis to John Bridge and the hundreds of experienced professionals and DIYers who contribute to pushing the envelope by sharing knowledge.

David, if you come to Montreal this summer I will orient you to the top ten places to go to that are off the beaten track of festivals and events. Real toilets to sit on. Imagine that! - this is David2 signing off..

T_Hulse
06-15-2005, 08:46 AM
This one had a great flush. :)

Pauster
06-15-2005, 09:49 AM
David,

having grown up in Germany I have used many of these
toilets and in my last appartment in Munich we had a
Gerberit wall mounted toilet, too. Not sure abuot the
exact model, though.

In the 3 years we stayed there I was very happy with it.
Great choice !

Patrick

Jules
06-15-2005, 11:37 AM
I saw the Kohler Hatbox, David.....sort of neat. AWFULLY expensive. Around $2300? Anyway.....you are droppin' some knowledge on us today! Good stuff! :bow:

Tom....that's a gorgeous WC....never thought I hear myself say that sentence outloud....LOL. :)

JTG
06-15-2005, 12:34 PM
My sister and her husband recently installed on of these toilets and they are very happy with it.
J

geniescience
06-15-2005, 02:37 PM
David, I just re-read the other thread you started last week about your shower. Did you say you are running out of time and money?

But first, I have not seen your floor plan. Can you post a line drawing, or sketch one with dots and dashes like
!-----________!
and hope that we all see the verticals the same way on our monitors.
Do you have a diagonal angle/wall or is everything square?

The main issue here is to gain extra space to solve the problem of having at least 24" in front of the toilet bowl, right?

A.) What can you do to the vanity countertop? Is the vanity already built / ordered / paid for ? I have ideas for you to consider that will save you a lot of inches in front of the toilet, by using your vanity countertop space differently. E.g. undermount sinks, and e.g. especially, building a washplane instead of installing a sink. Washplanes are so cheap it is impossible for stores to sell them. But they are custom jobs. You build your own with a single large tile. And on this site we can learn about every step of the way. You glue and screw two 3/4" plywood sheets together and build a table top surface, well braced and supported. It could be sticking out of the wall. You leave an open (scupper) space at the back across most of it, to match where you will put your one big tile. Below the opening, you install a long drain, for decks and balconies (a gutter), and you slope that to your p-trap which is pretty much hidden at the edge of the wall. On your countertop, you slope the tile to the back, to the hidden drain. So you need plywood, backerboard, thinset and a scupper drain. The real advantage is that the whole kit can be small, like 18" deep. You can then even put a small shelf hanging or floating above the long drain, so water flows away by sliding under it. Remember that your bathroom "sink" is for washing hands not for soaking sweaters. You have other sinks for that. Your faucets are small, so low-flow, so you don't need to worry abuot water splashing around, which is a normal fear for most people who think about washplanes the first time.

Have you planned for any adjacent shelf / tablette / countertop space, connected to your vanity on the side ?

B.) Have you already built the shower curb? What are you going to use as a shower curtain or door?

C.) If you really need to go with the lowest cost wall-hung toilet, you may be able to use the low-cost Tessera, without changing your drain location, in the following configuration. The bowl is installed low on the frame. The frame sits high (on 2x6's or more) so it's raised upwards, and then the 3" PVC drain is connected to an elbow which takes the drain to your existing flange... it may do the job. Your bowl will be high, a good thing.

Joerg
06-15-2005, 03:09 PM
Hello David,

Just my 2 Cents: Our house has only wall-hungs, unfortunately. It was that way when we bought it. Now one of them took a dump, the tank busted. Guess what? The new ones are at least $600 and do not even fit the mount anymore. So it's going to be replumbing time. Oh man. Never again.

Think about the future. What if something breaks? What if a really heavy guy plops himself onto the seat? Are you sure you can still get a new one? Maybe yes, but if it was me I'd consider remodeling a bit so you can achieve enough space to fulfill code.

Regards,

Joerg.

jdm
06-15-2005, 03:17 PM
David --

I have had no experience with in-wall toilet tanks, but the concept makes sense to me. I have seen the Kohler Hatbox on TV and it appears to be beautiful design statement. One word of caution on the Hatbox, it is tankless, and uses an electric pump to flush. So you have to plan for an electrical hookup, too.

Mr. Overkill
06-15-2005, 11:19 PM
Jules - I did notice that the toilet neaded a 2x6 wall to install and no that wall is not 2x6 but 2x4. So I thought about planning on adding 2" of wood to the already 3 1/2" to make 5 1/2" which would be a 2x6 size. But only planning to add up to about 5' on the bedroom side between the bathroom door and the door to the walk in closet. Then adding some sort of trim work around it. This will be a wall with a dresser and TV on it.

David - 1st I have to say what a reply :) thanks for all the great info.
My budget isn't gone just over what I hoped for. So $690 for the Tessera system (that is the cheapest deal I found on it so far) is a little over the top for a toilet in my book. $2k for a toilet is unimaginable.
I really like the idea of the wash planes but the double vanity is almost a must. As it is my wife tends to use up every dwawer, shelf, and counter space with all her stuff (ie. brush collection, hair dryer, cotton balls, q-tips, makup remover and what have you). At the place we're renting now we have a double door vanity with drawers on both sides and one medicine cabinet. I get 1/2 a shelf in the medicine cabinet and no drawers, she has everthing else filled with her stuff (I call it her crap).
The shower curb is not in yet, (I'm still installing RG6 quad shield and CAT6 ethernet throughout the house) the shower door will be frameless glass spanning the whole 6' of shower top to bottom with a transom at top.
Besides the toilet drain being to far from wall it is also to close to shower so it needs to be moved closer to the door (5" will give me 18" on either side).

drawings of my floor plan and bath plan at bottom of post.
bath drawing not perfect scale but floor plan is

Bath plan:
-brown rectangle between sinks is slide open window for fresh air
-not shown 90cfm panisonic fan\light
-pink lines are glass and door
-brown squares on shower wall is 4'x4' glass block
-green rectangle is shower seat
-circle in center is drain location
-light green line at bottom is steam outlet
-triangles are shower heads
-also not shown will be a hand shower, 4 body sprays and a rain head from ceiling

you can see where wall hung toilet is necessary


Patrick & J - thats good to know makes me feel a little easier

Joerg - bad news do you know what brand?

Jeff - Hatbox price is out of question

Tom - good looking floor

-David out

MHI
06-16-2005, 06:47 AM
No phone line going strictly cell phone.

Do you live in an area with 911 service? If so, you will have to explain where you live in an emergency. What if you don't have time, or can't talk?

With a phone line, you can just dial 911 and hang up. The police will show up because they know where you live.:)

NVC
06-16-2005, 08:45 AM
I have a recommendation regarding the Fan(light combo?) get a quiet one. They’re rated in ‘sones’ I believe the lower the ‘sone’ number the quieter the fan, and the higher the price tag. They are in the $120.ish range for a fan/light combo at the orange box store, and Panosonic makes a quiet one. Some of the stores have displays set up so you can hear them, but it’s amazing how much louder they get when in a small space without the rumble of fork-lifts.
In a guest bath, it may not matter, but most customers always regret not spending a little more when they hear the Apache helicopter take off in their bath.

I'd also recommend splitting the fan and light (if a combo unit) so the fan can be turned off, and the light can remain on. If you have the walls open, or are running the switch anyway. (a Romex with black AND red) and a two-gang box rather than a single-gang. If you're using existing, then this is moot.

Mark

geniescience
06-16-2005, 11:41 AM
David:

Good floor plans. Can you measure the inside-the-wall distances? From the flange to the door frame (the door to the bedroom), and from the flange to the wall that your sinks and counter will be on. Since the shower curb is not built yet, does this mean you have not ordered the glass door, wall panels and transom yet too? (By the way, will the transom be openable with hinges on the ceiling? For air circulation).

You may be able to save some good money. The lowest-cost solution is to keep your toilet flange where it already is and then add on no other serious costs. If it gives you something elegant and beautiful too, let's call it a winner.

On that basis, at first glance, I will suggest you try this one solution outlined below. You are trying to get a full-body walk-through space far greater than 20", and ideally as much as 34".

Part 1 of 3: The toilet drain is well positioned already to accept a floor-mount toilet that is turned 82 - 88 degrees so that it faces the door. Where a body needs the code-minimum 30" around a toilet is where your knees are, in front of the bowl. Actually, knees need more than 30", but code is not nuanced enough to say, here 24" at the back, here 27", and here 34". It is also good to have elbow room, and you could add a 2"-4" ledge on the wall to rest an elbow on. (And under the ledge, a shelf to hold t-paper so you dispense with the need to buy an official toilet paper roll dispenser.) The exact angle to position the toilet on is best determined by you and your partner, not by someone looking at floor plans. The key is that instead of always going at right angles, you can have beauty by splitting the angle deliberately and here you can find a way to go 'diagonal' in a way that is ergonomically sound. More about this later.

The flange can easily and cheaply be moved about 1.5" if you are willing to raise the floor by less than the thickness of two 3/4" plywood. Check out flange extenders that have an offset in them; they are designed to go around joists when your toilet is positioned directly overhead. About $20. This lets you back the toilet even closer into the corner of the glass wall and the right-hand wall.

Here you have a low-cost alternative to a wall-hung Tessera toilet. You keep your floor toilet, you swivel it on its drain (pivot it 85 degrees), and with a flange extender (with built-in offset) you get 2" extra wiggle room. And the floor could be raised only where the toilet is, for all the advantages explained in my first post above. Even more advantages to a higher toilet are that 1.) is easier to get onto and off from (for adults and teenagers), 2.) whether you stand, or sit, to pee, you are closer 3.) people who want to make their houses more ADA-compliant spend a lot of money for official toilet-raising platforms. Manufacturers don't want to produce high-throne devices but the average citizen sure enjoys it when the seat is higher than average. This is usually one of the pleasant features of a wall-hung toilet (it being so high up off the floor).

Have you bought your toilet yet? Kohler makes three models that are only 24" or 25" in depth. The width at the back is an issue I'll get to in a minute.

Part 2 of 3: Keep two sinks but rethink them, by changing two things, A.). the layout and shape of the countertop and B.) the sizes of the sinks (a big and a small one). A different shaped countertop using at least one 135 degree angle or else a curve will enable you to have adequate walk-through room between your toilet (its side) and your countertop. Hope it is clear that the counter's depth will be only 14" or 16" where it meets the glass wall of the shower.

For the small sink, think of a coordinating series (large and small), or go undermount for the small one only (so the big one is the visual 'statement' when entering, assuming it is a vessel or semi-vessel semi sunken), or go with two undermounted sinks which means your attention is drawn to the architecture of the whole space (the tiles, hint, hint, and not the sink drain...) Also, with undermount sinks you can place your countertop much higher than average. If you look at the web sites for Corian and other solid surfaces, you will see that when going undermount, sinks suddenly get really small, like 13", 14" and 15" size in diameter. That is because nobody needs more than that in real life, and people just like to buy what they have seen before and they get used to expecting things to be of a certain size... Some sinks are even 12" or 11", called hand-washing sinks (-you can brush your teeth too). Oh, a fourth option just occured to me: two washplanes! Wash-planes don't interfere with the human tendency to squirrel things away and clutter up stuff. You could have a washplane made of a single 48" porcelain tile slab. The slope is so minimal that its surface can be used for 'brush collection, hair dryer, cotton balls, q-tips, makup remover and what have you'

Part 3 of 3: place the hinges to your shower door on the other side so your door opens inward and from the counter space, not from the toilet space. Nobody would like slipping past a cold toilet tank to get into a warm shower, and besides, the countertop side is closer to the light from the windows and to the bench (where the 'action' is). No need to center the door in the 6' space. Consider whether you need/want glass top to bottom everywhere, since now you could build a bit more wall, behind the toilet's back, and add more jets there where it makes a lot of good sense since their spray won't hit the door and cause drip-through outside the shower. If your door swings inward it will now stop automatically when its bottom edge touches the curb (built to suit) and its top touches the transom's padding (fine tuning you do after moving in), and the huge advantage that offers is that no water comes through, ever, never, onto the bathroom floor. And having a door swing inward means you can also use it occasionally as a 'backsplash' reflector if you to go all out with the body sprays in an even more tightly enclosed than a 6' by 4' area. You get behind the door and swing it in a bit.

Part 4 of 3: the bathroom door could swing outwards and you may not lose anything. Since you consider the space to be a bit too small, why not let the door out into the bedroom? Then the new design for the counter-top does not have to bump up against a door coming into it or too close to it for comfort.

-david2 signing off

Mr. Overkill
06-16-2005, 07:14 PM
Matt
There is 911 service in my area and I do understand cell issue with 911 calls. Although with no landline service in my neck of the desert yet it would cost me $35k to bring in the phone lines (for that kind of price, just let me die).
There is a bill in the works to make cell phone companies upgrade there service to provide 911 operators with the information they need to find you. Until that happens I'll just have to memorize my address. The town I live in dosen't even have a Hospital. In an emergency the town has a flight for life helecopter to take whomever to the nearest Hospital which is 70 miles away over the mountains located in Las Vegas. Our first hospital is in the construction phase as we type do to open next February (25 beds). We do have a Sheriff department and Fire and Resque Dept. The town is growing quick tho and hope for the best. We just got our 2nd stop lite a couple years back and a Walmart which acts as our mall.
Thanks for thinking of me (its the thought that counts) :)

Mark
I have thought of the fan noise issue and have already purchased a panisonic fan/light combo with night light rated at 0.6 sones and wired with 3 switchs (I did all the electrical wiring of the house myself - due for inspection next week - took me awhile as I didn't have a helper). Let me just say crawling through rafters of vaulted ceilings to pull wire is really hard on the body.


David
I've pretty much decided to go with the Geberit Tessera toilet and have a jackhammer reserved at the rental shop for this weekend (Father inlaw works there so 1/2 price to me). With the Tessera installed I will have 18" from centerline to the shower, 18" from centerline to the unfinished door jam (after the door is installed that will give me a couple more) and 26 1/4" from front of bowl to edge of vanity top. Are you saying there is a 30" minimum distance code for knees? If so I can turn the toilet 90 degrees back up against shower and build a pony wall to house the tank. Thoughts?

The inside finished shower space will be 6' x 4' 5". The shower door will swing out as well as into the shower and the transon has hinges on both sides at centerline and will be able to open in two directions top to bottom. With all doors closed the added seal kit will hold in the steam. As for the door opening left or right (towards the vanity or towards the toilet) I figured it would be safer for the glass door in the long run to open towards the vanity (ie. door opens towards toilet, door hits toilet, door breaks, toilet breaks or both - kinda light hitting the door with a ball-peen hammer). I'm not planning on throwing the door open, just a safety issue.
By the way the house plan shows the bathroom door swinging into the bedroom when it will actually swing into the bathroom like the bath plan shows.
Thanks again for the think tank. I will be discussing the washplane idea with my better half.

-David

Mr. Overkill
06-16-2005, 07:49 PM
Well I rethought the spacing on backing the toinlet up to the shower and thats out of the question. That would only leave room for a 20' shower door. Oh well.

-David

geniescience
06-16-2005, 09:50 PM
David

Good news: a Tessera!

True, it is safer for the glass door to open towards the vanity. With a wall-hung WC, you don't have the tank in the way so that solves that design problem. The transon has hinges on both sides (yes!), to let it open in two directions top to bottom. Very nice. The shower door swings both out as well as into the shower. O.K.

The wall-hung is in a 36" (way more than the 30" minimum) side-to-side width between shower glass and door jam (which opens in) Then, umm, 26 1/4" from front of bowl to edge of vanity top. This is more than the 24" code minimum.

-->This narrow space in front of the toilet bowl will not satisfy you, I predict. Either reduce the vanity depth here or consider another solution, perhaps the idea outlined below.

True, backing the toilet up to the shower would take so much added clearance on the right-hand side, and require so much new wall that your shower door would get shrunk. Allow me to give one more idea: 45 degrees is half of 90 degrees and the average person will say, o.k. so what, i knew that... Here are the implications: you get to meet or surpass code and achieve all your other design goals and ergonomic objectives too, if you position the wall-hung toilet on a 45 degree angle. Neither is it backed up to the shower nor is it facing the vanity; instead it splits the angle in two, and the knee-wall (or complete wall) you need to build in the shower is much narrower than if the toilet were backed straight up to the shower. Here is the math: the new diagonal wall needed behind the toilet only needs to be 18" wide (make it 20" for beauty and to add a margin), so the sides (equilateral triangle) on the two walls are about 14" long. Where did all the extra space come from? From the fact that you don't need to add side-to-side clearances anymore, since a diagonally placed toilet gets its clearances from the diagonal spaces around it. This little-known fact is exploited by a Texas company, Eljer, which makes a diagonal tank and toilet. So you could also go back down to the floor with an Eljer corner toilet.

More about the Tessera, later.

Hope this makes sense, and hope this helps.

Mr. Overkill
06-16-2005, 10:43 PM
David

In my long and drawn out searchs for my space problem I did come across the Eljer and looked like a likely candidate for my predicament and looked at the specs. which at my calculation would still only give me 26" off the wall to the edge of the toilet farthest from the wall.
I also came across a corner high tank toilet which if I place the drain in just the perfect location would give me 18" off the wall and sounded like the perfect solution although the price is about $300 more and dose not look as sleek as the Geberet. Here is the link to the sight, scroll down and have a looksy. There is also a link to the specs on that page.

http://www.deabath.com/Hightank/hightank.htm

-David

geniescience
06-16-2005, 11:23 PM
David 1:

Glad you have studied this thoroughly. I remember the high-tank web site as well, and I notice they are trying too hard to imitate old-fashioned toilet shapes that put the p-trap in the front portion of the porcelain... That is why they look so bulky and stunted.

Three more ideas: 1.) With a wall-mount, when you do the math, does it turn out as bad as you say the Eljer corner toilet did (i.e. 26")? I think not. Maybe tomorrow I'll figure it out. 2.) Try splitting the angle in a 30 degree / 60 degree split. This really changes the geometry and the spacing. And, you still get the clearances on the diagonal. Remember that anything can be made beautiful when it is well-installed and well surrounded with other objects of beauty (your tiles). 3.) Go back to square one by buying a porcelain bowl you like and building a frame to hold it and ordering from a plumbing supply house a 'high tank' that you install where you want to... If you are interested in this I will direct you for the hardware pieces you need.

Since you (and your better half?) are already looking at diagonal corner toilets I predict you will soon have a plan.

Mr. Overkill
06-17-2005, 04:34 AM
David

If I get what your saying, using a standard corner toilet at the angle your talking about the layout would look something like the first pic below.
With the wall hung it would look like the second pic below.

And after some more thought on the high tank toilet. That is another out of the question toilet do to having a major condensation problem with the tank high up in same room with a steam shower.

-David

geniescience
06-17-2005, 06:33 AM
The first layout plan is good: it shows how awkward it would be to place a corner toilet on a 50/40 split (splitting the 90 degree angle slightly off-center, not precisely 45/45 degrees on each side, i.r. 50 degrees on the left side and 40 degrees on the right side).

The second layout plan did not illustrate what I meant by 'trying a 30/60 split'. I meant angle (pivot, turn) the wall-mount so that the right-hand side is angled 30 degrees from the right-hand side wall, and the left-hand side is angled 60 degrees from the shower wall (which would then be pro'lly partly built up, partly glass wall).

Mr. Overkill
06-17-2005, 07:06 AM
David

If I'm understanding what your saying install the corner toilet offset as shown in the drawing above and build out the wall in the void between the tank and wall also between the tank and glass.
For some reason that seems it would astetically (if thats the way its spelled) wierd to me.

-David

off to work I go

geniescience
06-17-2005, 09:13 AM
Yes, install the corner toilet offset as shown, angled, in the first drawing above, and "build out the wall in the void between the tank and wall also between the tank and glass" which then creates a triangular space in a pillar / column / small-width wall in which you can put low and medium height niches in the shower side so your wife's stuff can hide there. (Or half of it). There is another thread happening right now about making a low niche to be used as a leg step-up for shaving legs (women's) and everyone agrees it is a great idea.

To make the toilet bowl feel well-proportioned with the other elements in the room you need to spend more money on something that raises its attention-level to show 'respect' to the placement. That is the definition of aesthetic in its core meaning, if you go back a few thousand years before Rome was founded. Leaving it alone would make it isolated and a bit weird. Example of what you could do: put a custom-built wood slat mat under it - I think there is a name for that kind of thing, called a caillebotis in French. Made of western red cedar or teak or an exotic wood. You could even take the mat into the shower with you on really cold days.

If the attached line drawing comes through we can talk more about it later.

geniescience
06-17-2005, 09:29 AM
Transmission received. Drawing freehand, not to scale in any way at all. The bowl is angled too steep but I left it anyway.

Little dots around toilet meant to show clearances needed, front and side, in a curve and not in a rectangle - discuss this with code inspector to see he views this similarly, as s/he has latitude about interpreting code where it is not precise. S/he could even allow a tolerance for a little less elbow room on the wall side... The drawing shows a huge gain of walk-through space between the countertop and the WC bowl. On the spot, you can simulate reality better than any drawing can show. In my place I cut a piece of styrofoam and put it on a small box to simulate where the bowl would really be. Easy to move around too and change angle slightly.

The countertop is potentially redrawn with dotted lines. It matches the bench in the shower.

The 'pillar' can be thicker too, and I think that would help. I did not draw the niches on the shower side. Another advantage of the 'pillar' wall is that you can put two jets there and the handshower thus hiding the long tube hanging down. Visually clean. Removes visual clutter, when you walk in and your attention is attracted to your handiwork (the tiles, hint hint).

Glad to help. Hope this does.

geniescience
06-17-2005, 09:42 AM
Freehand notes. The bowl takes less space across your short axis (the 72"-er) when turned more than at a 45 degree angle. The triangles are just there for me. I think these are called isoceles triangles.

Another idea to raise the bowl's respect-level: behind the bowl make the wall into a feature wall (or pillar or panel). Do something different that makes a 'visual statement'.

Mr. Overkill
06-17-2005, 11:41 PM
Wow now my brain is really over working.
I think as far as money spent vs resale value goes, and possibility of reselling and moveing to Colorado in the next 5 yrs (besides over frying my brain) maybe go with with the wall-hung Geberit and call it a day.
I am so stressed as it is. Trying to cut my research losses and just flip a coin. Building extra knee walls (or as I call them pony walls is just one more headache).
I enjoyed the think tank but ran into another problem today. The framing crew wasnt perfect on my fasia outcroppings of the roof and so tired of arguing with construction crews over how something should look. I just took the day off and fixed it myself. Now I threw my back out and very frustrated with the whole house building process. Just finished six pack so if my spelling is'nt great you know why.
Time is getting to short and going to call it a day.
Very frustrated today, maybe I'll feel diferantly tomarrow.

Thanks for all you wisdom

-David

geniescience
06-18-2005, 10:36 AM
What a life! Reminds me of a close firend of mine who has been his own contractor for the last year, learning and doing a lot in one year, and he is really thorough in his research. He has to move in within ten days, his lease being up.

So let's say you had to move in say a week and you wanted a wall-hung 'just because'. To keep your future options really wide open, you may really want to get the OEM frame (110.816.00.1) and a low-cost bowl (Duravit Happy D or a Catalano Zero, Light or Domino, model). The reasons why are two: first, the Tessera is tied down to its drain just like any floor toilet is, while all the other ones are free-floating in the sense that they can be moved anywhere (i.e. now or later) and you just lengthen the pipe to the drain. Then you don't have to jackhammer out the existing flange this weekend, and you can choose where to position it all (bowl, drain) later, after a first rough install. Bolting the frame to wall studs is not a challenge, neither is gluing PVC. (The hard thing is deciding what to do in your situation). The second reason may surprise you: several experienced plumbers (not related or associated) have told me the Tessera does not give a strong flush, compared to the other Geberit frame. The Tessera's patented s-form drain seems not to help the evacuation flow, although I guess it could be said it does help ensure no stains remain (yuk) requiring a double flush, but I haven't even heard that much promotion from Geberit. I have seen the Tessera in action and I was a bit underimpressed. It does the job.

You still have a floor-mount option: the Rialto from Kohler, and make the wall thinner behind it (don't plan for any wall outlets in it). About $450. Cute, low, stocky shape.

About pony walls: I like to build full walls instead. No need to have a see-through portion here, since you have a huge space already and tons of light from windows and glass already. Plus the other advantages of ease of construction and lower cost (less glass) and new space now available for jets and niches... I wonder if this is an issue: keeping a full 6' of glass wall, with panel and door a perfect 24" each piece; if so, please don't make it an issue. You can achieve balance and aesthetic proportions and impressive beauty with another

Mr. Overkill
06-18-2005, 09:09 PM
David

Well I put off the jackhammering to give it some more thought and not get to hasty. I just had a bad day yesterday and wanted to clear my head. I ended up just working on some other things that needed to get done.
It’s a good thing I did. I just got done reading your new post, and voila, you found the perfect toilet for my situation. :yipee: I just got done looking at the specs and doing the math.

If I go with the Geberet wall-hung toilet it will cost me a minimum of $690 for the whole shebang plus the cost of changing the wall behind it from 2x4 to 2x6 studs. This configuration will give me 26” of walking space between the toilet and vanity. 72” width of bathroom, minus ½” on either side for drywall, minus 22” for the vanity, minus 1” overhang for the vanity top, minus 22” for the toilet bowl.

If I go with the Kohler Rialto toilet it will cost me $286 through http://www.plumbingexpress.com/detail.asp?product_id=K3386WH So I won’t have to widen the wall, just build in a niche for the toilet to set back in. This configuration will give me 25 ¼” of walking space between the toilet and vanity. The Rialto is 25 ¼” front to back, plus ½” space behind toilet to slide a towel behind for cleaning, minus 3 ½” niche in the wall for the toilet to set back in, minus ¼” for error or product variation. I will Jackhammer and place the toilet flange accordingly. This seems like the way to go. Did I leave anything out?

I was going to have to jackhammer and move the toilet flange in any situation. The flange as it is now is 15 ½” off the unfinished wall and 13” from the shower. Besides I want to end up with a clean look without to much jeryrigging.

By the way how much space would I have to minus if I wanted to tile the wall behind the toilet?

Our think tank paid off. Thank you so much for all your time. :bow:

A special thanks to John Bridge for hosting this site. :bow:


-David

geniescience
06-21-2005, 01:54 PM
David1:

Very happy for you. Glad to read about your choices. Sorry I didn't respond; I was internet-challenged for a couple of days.

Since the toilet you chose is so low, walking past it is easy and 'painless'. There is very little bulk getting in the way (psychologically speaking); other toilets disturb more in terms of knee room, hip room, and even elbow room.

Will be glad to see photos of the whole thing put together, when you have them.

Open space behind the tank needs only to be 1/8", cleaning is a not an issue; you can slide a slice of cotton fabric behind the tank easily at any time by holding it tight on both sides, assuming your niche is an inch wider than the tank is on both sides. On the niche surface (wall), if you use 1/4" Hardi backer instead of gypsum (1/2") you will save more space and in this case it is worth planning to get every last 1/4" possible.

Since you are recessing the toilet into a shallow niche, may I suggest you consider angling its corners at 45 degrees, or if tiling it, planning its size (and shape) to accomodate the bullnose that goes with the tiles you choose. Some ceramic tiles are very thin; more space saved. If you have already jackhammered and installed a new flange and you still want to save another few millimeters, remember the offset flange you can use to move the flange around a bit.

If your vanity countertop depth is reduced to 22" throughout (I think it was 24" on your plans), no-one will ever even notice, and this alone will give you a huge increase in your walk-through passage space.

David2

Mr. Overkill
06-21-2005, 04:51 PM
David

Its funny you would call me David1 and yourself David2 since you joined the forum 3 months before I. But I appreciate the upgrade (accually as long as this site has been around we are probably Davids in the 100's but 1 & 2 works for this thread).

I did plan for angling the tile since you mension it and have not jackhammered yet. Since the 1/8" space behind tank is now problem I will plan that into the equation and will look for thinner tiles I can live with. I am also still discussing with my better half the option of double washplanes and building a custom vanity myself to match which would free up even more space. I am accually debating on making a mold and pouring colored cement with colored rocks to make a homemade washplane (the ones I've seen are upwards of $2,000.00). Depending on how time permits before my construction loan ends (I just extended it another 2 months which gives me till the end of August).

You mentioned
Since you are recessing the toilet into a shallow niche, may I suggest you consider angling its corners at 45 degrees, or if tiling it, planning its size (and shape) to accomodate the bullnose that goes with the tiles you choose.
Do bullnoses come with a 45 degree angle? I was planning on doing a 45 degree tile and grouting corner but if there's a 45 degree bullnose that would look much better.

-David

Mr. Overkill
06-21-2005, 06:35 PM
How would I attach the 1/4" Hardibacker behind the toilet.
Since it will be going between the studs will I apply it the back of the drywall from the adjoining room with some sort of adhesive. By the way, the studs are on 16" centers so I will frame in a header to accomodate.

To save even more space - since I will be applying RedGard the steam shower anyway how about just apply RedGard to the back of the drywall from the adjoining room for a waterproof holder of the thinset and tiles. That should free up another 1/4".

Any thoughts?

-David

geniescience
06-22-2005, 02:48 PM
David1:

I may have some answers. Best let the experienced tilemen get involved here. -- I believe they will tell you to use a grinder to take off some of the tiles' back edge so as your tiles can fit together without leaving a huge space to grout which will lead to grout cracking since it is so shallow and hange-of-plane-y. Or you spring for bullnose and also take off a bit with a grinder, but that is risky in terms of not always leaving a clean straight edge. So, all those who have cut and set tiles, please chime in!

To me, angling the side edges of your niche is just a way to 'do more' to highlight the niche rather than doing the minimum necessary. I was thinking in terms of it being angled if painted sheetrock (gypsumboard), and the bullnose was if 90 degrees and tiled... Not both. I would not get a bullnose for a 45 degree wall joint (actually it is 135 degrees,,,)

If you 'attach' the 1/4" Hardibacker behind the toilet between the studs does this mean you have completely removed one stud ?? Quote: "...will I apply it the back of the drywall from the adjoining room with some sort of adhesive. By the way, the studs are on 16" centers so I will frame in a header to accomodate."

This idea is interesting: Quote "To save even more space - since I will be applying RedGard the steam shower anyway how about just apply RedGard to the back of the drywall from the adjoining room for a waterproof holder of the thinset and tiles. That should free up another 1/4". No need for Redgard on the wall behind a toilet, in my book. However, it is important to have something more than a single layer of sheetrock. \Two layers, different thicknesses, different densities, to reduce sound transmission. So maybe leftover Redgard can do that function (assuming you are tiling the wall) since you will then have three different layers of substances each with its own density and dimension (thickness), i.e. gypsum/ Redgard/ tiles.

----
You know Parkinson's Third Law says that work expands to fill the time available. This was post-WW2 insight; today, 50 years later, we say that the hallmark of true professionalism is knowing what to do and when to stop. Better is the enemy of Good, say the French ("le mieux est l'ennemi du bien") and I guess this applies to 'improving' and even to 'thinking' and 'planning'. So soon I will have to stop myself too. Anyway, right now, carrying this logic forward while still remaining focused on your space, I figure you can see why I encourage you now to focus on re-doing the vanity countertop in a different configuration rather than saving additional 1/4"s on the other side of the passageway space.
- Consider building your countertop as two pieces instead of one. The shallow one on the left side could look like a shelf rather than a traditional clutter-collecting countertop. And yes, a 'shelf' look-alike can have a sink in it too and be esthetically pleasing.
-- Consider wall-mounted faucets, or even more original for your space, faucets 'hanging' on the underside of another, higher, shelf. Each of these two shelves could have a thick profile (height) to accommodate the plumbing. And a thick profile is considered clean and zen. And you could then save huundreds of dollars by just using the rough copper plumbing they sell in hardware stores, the kind that costs $5-$6 and goes inside the fancy expensive tub faucets which are really just fancy metal covers on top of the real working parts. The plumbing is invisible since the shelf has a thick profile and your water just falls (poetically) without there being a visible spigot. If you implemented this on the left-hand side countertop, then the right-hand side one could still be done 'traditionally' and that would be OK in my book. In fact it is cute, funny and semiotically sophisticated. :twitch: :crazy: :crazy:

This is hmmm: Quote "... better half the option of double washplanes and building a custom vanity myself to match which would free up even more space. I am accually debating on making a mold and pouring colored cement with colored rocks to make a homemade washplane (the ones I've seen are upwards of $2,000.00). Depending on how time permits before my construction loan ends (I just extended it another 2 months which gives me till the end of August)."

My flip responses are this:
- Consider your better half as 'the client' and build a five-minute styrofoam mockup. Show it, and have an extra piece of sytrofoam on hand to simulate the shelf / countertop being deeper or shallower. Build the shelf overlapping the bigger one, I mean the leftover part of the vanity countertop. Overlapping shelf onto countertop means more space to put things on, and even some space to half-hide things under. Shelf height could be somewhere above hipbone and below bellybutton.
-- After a couple tries with concrete, decide to give it up and go back to porcelain since it is already manufactured in the right shape you need, flat and rectangular. You just need to angle it and get a low-flow stream of water to fall onto it. That is 'not nothing' in terms of challenges...

----------
Please see my thread about my layout challenges (Concrete condo...) and add what you can, all and everyone. Please!
-David2

-David2 signing off

Mr. Overkill
06-22-2005, 04:59 PM
If you 'attach' the 1/4" Hardibacker behind the toilet between the studs does this mean you have completely removed one stud ??
The widest spot of the back of the toilet tank is 21 1/8" plus the added space to accomodate the 45 degree angles with thinset and tiles. Since the wall studs (not a baring wall) are on 16" centers, I will need to frame in the niche with a header. Sort of like framing in a window.

-David

Mr. Overkill
06-22-2005, 08:12 PM
When I get to the project of jackhammering and moving the toilet flange. I have one advantage that most people don't.
I've been on the job site since the beginning taking pictures along the way at every stage of the building proccess. So I know where every pipe is and direction it goes before I start any remodel.

I have close to 700 now (I know, overkill)

These are some pics of the ground plumbing for the master bath.

Mr. Overkill
06-29-2005, 05:55 PM
Well I finally did the jackhammering and it went very well.
The jackhammer I rented cut through the concrete like butter compared to a few I've used in the past. It was electric powered and very smooth and quiet.
This is the first jackhammer I've used that didn't shake your whole body as your hammering. I would recomend this hammer to anyone. I believe it was a 60 pound hammer made by Hilti (I've used a Makita in the past and there is no comparison in the quality). I used it to jackhammer out 3 holes and removed a curb in the garage where I wanted to put a walkthrough door to the front.
Here is a pic of one of the holes I dug and one of me kneeling next to it for size referance. I am 5' 6-1/2" tall.

-David

Jules
06-29-2005, 06:54 PM
Lots of work going on there David. And I'm sure the guys will tell you that's ALMOST an appropriate studly pose there.....lol. ;) But didn't they say something about looking off wistfully....not at the camera? Something about looking pensive....serious...and trying to figure out their next move.

And only mild admiration of one's own work....never let 'em see ya gloat. :cool:

Seems like a lot of "backtracking" for a toilet....but......gotta do what ya gotta do I guess. Did you buy the hanging toilet yet? And by 700....I hope you meant pics......not pipes. :twitch:

Mr. Overkill
06-29-2005, 10:30 PM
Hi Jules,

I had to backtrack because the ground plumber F'ed up and sloped the wrong direction, (Pic suplied below) see bubble.

I did not go with the wall hung toilet. I eventually ended up with a Kohler Rialto which is the smallest front to back demension toilet made (25-1/4"). I give credit to David (Geniescience) for the find. I will set the tank into the wall to make up the differance in space.

And 700 was for the price of the wall hung toilet, total price, the Rialto will cost me $269 total.

As far as posing, I'll try to look the other way next time (just for you :) ).
Just trying to give size comparison to the jackhammer.
And and far as my next move, I'm not a professional, and have no idea what my next move is (learning as I go, as usual). Just messing with you, I know your just having fun.

-David

Jules
06-30-2005, 07:17 AM
Wow David......he really did muck that up. As far as comparing yourself to a jackhammer.....well....I decline to comment on the grounds that it may incriminate me......LOL. :cool: Just teasin' ya! :)

David (genie) has been a wealth of info. Both of your projects have some details the average remodeler rarely comes across. But I've always thought the beauty of a project is in the detail work. I thought your design for his double bathroom marriage was very creative! Turning the corner tub around.....clever! Thinking outside the box.....

As far as you building your entire house.....I'm a little envious.....lol. As much work as that is......it's always sounded like a fun challenge to me.

The Rialto is a good choice....I'm assuming you are creating an alcove in that toilet wall offset from your vent pipe. That will be nice. My project was on hold the last week and a half....some work to be done at the inlaws...but it gets back in full swing this weekend! Dream day today....off to buy a few tools I've been eyeing for a while. ;) Keep the pics coming....watching the progress of some of these projects is addicting!

John Bridge
06-30-2005, 03:34 PM
Not to defend Mr. Plumber, but to give him an even break. The cement finishers could have stomped on your closet bend when pouring the concrete. ;)

Mr. Overkill
06-30-2005, 04:52 PM
Actually I had to jackhammer 2 of the 3 toilets and the 2nd one was even worse than the master toilet. There was only 1" of concrete over the sewer pipe besides being 15-1/2" off the wall and when I checked the level it was pegged out to one side worse than the 1st toilet (picture below shows the obvious sloppiness) I may be a pay-attention-to-detail kind of guy and a stickly for perfection but thats rediculous (Picture of 2nd toilet below). So I dug down a 1-1/2' to get to the main sewer offshoot elbow and cut it off to drop the closet bend assembly and bring to a 12" rough-in. The closet bends were held in place by rebar and wire so the cement finishers would have to have stomped pretty hard. besides, I was there the during the whole process and did not see any shaky work from the cement crew. The cement crew I used was the same crew that did a house in Las Vegas (60 minutes from me) for the TV show Extreme Makeover Home Edition. That probably dosen't mean anything but figured if they were good enough for ABC they were good enough for me. Either way I wasn't happer with the ground plumbers work.



-David