e-mail solutions

[kdzgon]

For anyone that ever has a need to access e-mail while away from your computer, here is a simple solution. There is no registration required, nothing to download, no information is retained by the site, and it's free besides. (Doesn't work with AOL). The actual messages remain on your server, unless you choose to delete them. You can respond to/forward/delete/etc the messages, and you can access multiple accounts.

If interested, go to http://www.mail2web.com to check it out.

(Sorry if this is repeated info - I tried a search first, and didn't find anything.)

Laurie

[Sponsored Links]

[JC]

how long have you used it..My biggest concern with these places it that many time they sell your new email addy and after a few months or so you get swamped with spam.

Heres one I have had for quite awhile that has never spammed me and I only get mail I want.


http://www.mail.com

[kdzgon]

JC,

I cannot imagine use of this creating a spamming problem, as they do not gather any info on the users (nothing to sell/share with advertisers, etc). Can't say for sure as I haven't used it much yet, but I DO like the anonymity, unlike mail.com. The service you are using requires registration and uses cookies, so although they may block spam they collect and also reserve the right to share your info, incl. your name, age, IP address, what operating system you are using, etc.. Plus, you must deal with advertising there. I personally do not knowingly use *anything* that utilizes DoubleClick as it is the king of spyware, but that is just my opinion.

Mail2web is not a mail service per se - it merely acts as a conduit for you to access any POP3 mail accounts. It is purely an HTML application, so it is very secure as well (no java, no cookies!). Check it out, and be sure to read the Privacy info here http://www.mail2web.com/cgi-bin/privacy_policy.asp Of course, as it is not a mail service, it does not store your address book, etc., so that must be a consideration for users if that is a requirement.

The two services differ functionally in a few ways, so it depends on your needs. But, mail2web can be useful for accessing your mail from remote locations.

Laurie

[JC]

How do you know they don't log basic personal data...heck I even have a infomation analizer on my site..to learn all the stuff you mentioned..this does mean it is good or bad..but more a tool for website to help promote their site.

Don't let there sales pitch mislead you and try to scare you..registering with Mail.com is anonymous also..no need to give any data about yourself if you don't want to.

Igf anything I would be more leary giving these guys my "TRUE" email address!!!!AND PASSWORD!!

With regular web based email you simply give them a fake address (another free mail service) if anything at all is required.

With this hiding your true Email address (and your Email provider and possibly (diffenatly) your location and true identity. Is impossible by the very nature of the service..

The value of web based mail is that they don't use your personal ISP.

If you are going to use your regular ISP pop account anyways...why not just a normal email client program...you can use any email client program to check your mail from anywhere also..just set the mail prefs and walla there you go.

I see no reason to allow these guys to advertise to you and collect data on you for avertisers when they dont even offer free web space or anonyminity...?


Now I would agree with them that Hotmail and Yahoo after all they are owned my Microsoft..Those are very scary mail programs since they are very frequently exploited.

I am not worried about these sites knowing my IP addy or even where I was reffered from..my browser etc..
Every Tom,Dick and Harry that can cut and paste code can and does do the same thing...It is EVERYWHERE on the web. If something like that scares you then you need to get used to it.

Heres a basic counter I use that logs everything for me and uses grafts and charts to anylize the data...cost 20 a year. Read all the info it gives me.

http://www.thecounter.com/

The only real concern I care about is opening my mail and having the scan 4 thousand spam mails before I find real mail...these web based mail programs are good for that.
That and having a million pop-up windows in my face everytime I check my mail...(well that point is moot now that I use opera and have pop-ups disabled).

Mail2web has an interesting page offering advetising space..see they are no differant.

https://ads.mail2web.com/splash/index.htm

And if they are so honest and do not log infomation then how are they indeed offering these services to their advertisers....they offer advertising campaigns "TARGETING" customers....

>>>

Leverage a monthly page view inventory that exceeds 100 million with over 500,000 unique users in more than 140 countries


Realize increased click-thru rates due to highly targeted campaigns


Create unique ad campaigns for individual target markets (geographical and demographical)


Detailed statistics allow businesses to view effectiveness of campaigns (return on investment)<<<

read all about it...

https://ads.mail2web.com/index.htm

How is this possible if you are truely anonymous?

I am not saying they are not a good web mail service(after all they all do this for the hits) just that the value of the service is not any differant then your mail client.






[Edited by JC on 05-06-2002 at 08:44 PM]

[kdzgon]

JC,

I am not a computer whiz, I just thought the site was less intrusive than most so I decided to share the info here. No sweat if you don't like the site. However, as to "what makes me think...." the posting of privacy policies is required by federal law. Yes, I guess it is true that we don't "know" what goes on, but I'm more leary of a site that tells me up front that it collects data AND it uses DoubleClick (a company that has been continually accused of violations: http://news.com.com/2100-1023-236216.html?legacy=cnet)

mail.com:

When you register for an account:

We Will:

1. Collect personally identifiable (e.g. name, address) and demographic (e.g. age, gender) information about you. edited to add emphasis, & (this is NOT "anonymous" in my book.) We will use the demographic data to post ads (appealing to your demographic) on our Web site when you log in...... Cookies also ensure that you view relevant ad banners on our Web site when you log in. Our web-based mail service will not function unless your browser is set to accept cookies.


mail2web:

All activities are considered private and are not recorded. mail2web does not provide any user information to any 3rd party. .....To ensure addition anonymity, mail2web does not use any form of cookies to track your activities while using any portions of the application.


The difference is, mail2web allows you to decide if you want to register, while mail.com requires a cookie.
Many corporate ITs would not allow the use of a service that installs a cookie on their machines. Plus, it doesn't matter if "everyone" can check your IP, etc (though I think I can disprove this - ask flatfloor what your IP is...) - (a)the existence of cookies (vs no cookies allowed) increases security risk, period and (b) I don't *want* every T/D/H collecting data on me, so I sure as heck am not going to help them! I use both hardware and software to hide my IP address - it's not perfect, but every hit I prevent is one less potential security risk for my machine, and one bit less info for someone else to sell re: my habits.

If I understand correctly, regular web-based e-mail means another place my e-mail is stored, and/or another address. I don't want any more e-mail addresses - I can't handle the ones I have now - and when I'm away and using a cyber cafe etc I'm not so sure I will be able to use a service that will require installation of a cookie and/or program. Plus, that would entail me downloading my mail to someone else's machine - something I am not wont to do. In fact, I was directed to this site by my e-mail provider as a means of accessing my mail while traveling.

BTW, so far, the only ads I've seen have been for their own web hosting service. Again, their targeted ads are to users that opt in, not unknowingly have their info collected.

And when you register with a web-based e-mail service, you are giving them your account name and password also - what's the difference? You are still sending your mail to that account by some means!

DoubleClick p*sses me off more than scares me. You do NOT have a *choice* re: giving info - cookies monitor and collect data, and you cannot disable cookies in mail.com.

It sure seems I upset you with my comments, but that was not the intent. I just wanted to share a site that appears (to me) to be less intrusive than some of the other ones out there, and I will continue to warn people that info is being collected from & on them without their knowledge and/or consent, as I think that stinks. (But I AM done on this thread :) )

Laurie

[Edited by kdzgon on 05-07-2002 at 04:54 PM]

[flatfloor]

You didn't upset him, relax. :)

[JC]

The way the cookies are used in Mail.com is nothing really.
All they do is take the info you input..like your gender,age etc.. and when you log in it tells there software what type of banner ad to place on the site...ie. something geared to a mif=ddle aged male...football,investment ads etc..

It is really nothing to worry about.

It is anonymous in that the name and info you give them can all be made up the only checks or confiormation they use is by sending you a email to verify. This is easily bypassed by simply using a third web based mail address to retrive the confirmation at..You see it is anonymous that way.


With regular web based mail you do not give them your ISP username and password you make up a new one for that site just to use with that site.

You see you only have ONE isp email account and when the spammers catch up to you the only way to get rid of them is to have your ISP change all your info (possibly at a added cost to you). Sure is easier to get another web based mail acount.

I am not upset..I like to debate..just ask anyone.

Actually I did find that link interesting and did not realize they had a site like that..not sure what advantage it has other then making it easy for someone to log in and check their mail if they do not know how to change the dial up setting to do the same thing.


Cookies are not a evil dangerous thing..relax they are not that bad.
Beside 75% of all big web sites use them and many times you can't even surf without them enebled. Every shopping cart site..most all password sites...even this site uses them to remember your password everytime you log on so you don't have to keep writing your name to post..they are everywhere.
Also as far as collecting info..cookies really do not do that..that is java,javascript and PHP and even DHTML that does that stuff mostly...do you have those disabled?
Cookies ONLY gather info you do on the site you get the cookie from...Unless you specify differantly they will not be send back to a differant person then the origenal sender.
Now you can use PHP to trick the cookies into thinking you are the origenal sender...Ie. this sites password is stored in a cookie..I send a php code through this furom software and into you computer so that the name still says Johnbridge.com in it...the cookie thinks I am the origenal sender and allows itself to be sent to whatever email addy I specify in the return path of the PHP code. Thus I got yopur forum password...eh..big deal.

The cookie itself is harmless..it is not a code and cannot execute any coding on your computer..it cannot collect data off of your computer and store it to be retrieved..it simply remembers where it came from and stores what it is told then retreived when it is needed.
Write your password in this forum..the cookie gets sent to your computer..when you come back here this site ask for your cookie..if it is present it retrieves it and thus is how it remembers your password so you don't have to re write it every time.

Omline shopping carts work the same way..as does the double click software that just remembers what kinda ads you would like to view(targeted).

Both email vendors do this..that is how the make money to pay for that free service..it is advertising not somekind of conspiracy....without comkmercials you would not have public television...so relax.

Ok I am done also and I hope I did'nt upset you either. I do thank you for bieng one of the very few visitors who actually post in my little forum here afterall it does need all the help it can get and sorry I just could'nt resist the chance to argue the merits of that site..nothing personal I hope.



Pure Java is the real killer you have to worry about...heck you can open a web page and the Java can execute code that will get all your important data (as long as it is stored in common folders) and even access your files/passwords, send emails and just about any thing you can imagine is possible with malicious java code.

[JC]

Hey KDZGON, I brought a peace offering for you.


http://anonymouse.is4u.de/

[JOHN DOE]

Testing

[Bud Cline]

Wall all bee!

The above post was inserted via JC's anonymouse. This site asked for user name and password, I entered user name John Doe only and offered no password. The site took the post anyway no questions asked. Is that how it's supposed to work?

[JC]

maybe your cookies are still active Bud and it remembered your password?

Just becuase you have a differant IP does not mean your cookies quite working...if that was so nobody with a dynamic IP (dial-up users) would be able to have passwords remembered.

[Bud Cline]

Well yeh but if my cookies were still working good enough to get me in here without doing anything special, then that same thing would/could get others into my information and demographics, right?

Therefore the "anonymouse" thing is useless, is it not? I thought these websites weren't supposed to know who I was using anonymouse.

And besides my password wouldn't/shouldn't be recognized with the john doe offering.

I'm confused.

[jane dough]

Well...you can change your username to just about anything if you're still cookied. Did you log out first?

(I was able to duplicate this experiment, but it only worked AFTER I erased my password...I did not go through anonymouse. Guess this answers cx's old question on how change your name to a different user, hmmm? ;) )

[Cami A]

Ok, so we only show up as guests. That should be normal, eh? Don't even need a cookie, it appears. I'd only be worried if it showed "jane dough" with my posts and nickname. I wasn't able to edit the "guest" message at all.

[JC]

Simple Bud..turn off your cookies.

Also the demograghic stuff does NOT use cookies it uses Javascript and PHP amoung other things..This is what I am trying to say.

I have coded these apps into my pages by hand in the past and they are not cookies.
A program CANNOT use a cookie to find out what site you came from..becuase the site is not allowed access to a cookie if it did not write it in the first place.

It uses a Javascript refferal tag that reads your browser.

Javascript tells what browser you are using...Therefore with the Anonymouse it will read the Anonymous 's server as the browser...ie. Unix.

Making any sense of this?

[flatfloor]

By God, I think I actually understand that! :)

[Bud Cline]

No!!!

And frankly I don't care, this stuff is way over my head.:):):)

Keep up the information though because others do care and want to learn this stuff. :):):)

[JC]

Really... who?


Anyone want to know how to make sure there electric panel is up to code? most are'nt

[Bud Cline]

:)Now see....John tells me I must clean-up my act...I do...and look what you say. Just trying to be helpfull there JC.:)

:)Thanks so much for your comments it's good to see you here JC.:)

[Cami A]

Hey, now...I like learning all this "stuff".

Electrical panel was approved last week, though. :D

(I have no idea if that's the same as an electric panel. Probably not, eh?)

[JC]

Just becuase it is approved does not mean it is up to code...scary is'nt it?

Same as the Gas lines...these inspector guys make unholy alliances with the contractors.

[Cami A]

Oh, it's up to code now. They gave Jack an old copy of the code, which didn't forbid placing the box in the closet. Guess what the new code sez? :D

[JC]

No closets! Must be easily seen and readily accessible.

Another common thing I see is when the nuetral wires and the ground wires are both grounded to the same nuetral bus bar in the panel.

The newer codes say they have to be separated..white on one side and ground on the other...

This often means a separate purchase and install of a additional ground bus bar so it seems to get skipped.

Also the nuetral(white) bus bar has to be insulated from the panel while the Ground bus bar has to be grounded directly to the panel..and fed with two sources of ground. (plumbimg and ground rods)


Hows yours?

[flatfloor]

That's a rather personal question JC.

[Cami A]

Mine's fine... thanks for asking. ;)

All of that sounds familiar, except for the plumbing ground...the plumbing's not metal. :D

[JC]

The plumbing is optional..but you still need another source of ground..You would need another ground wire going to a separate6 foot grounding rod.

Remember also that you would depending on the size of your house..need two ground rods per each ground wire..spaces 6 feet apart min.

[John Bridge]

Neutral (white) wires and bond (bare) wires have been dogged to the same buss forever. I see no problem with that. Where's Spark Chaser?

[Cami A]

Y'all are still talking about this? Jack's run all the hot and cold lines since the beginning of this conversation, and framed the vanity in the MB and the breakfast bar(twice :rolleyes: )...Way too late... :D

[flatfloor]

You have to understand, certain parts of the country are just getting eelecktricity. :D

[Bud Cline]

John your right, but it's not code.

[JC]

John the way it was explianed to me was that the nuetral was somehow doing "double duty" when wired that way.

The code has been change for ..when was the last book 94?

All 220 plugs now have to have four wires on them also.

I see brand new homes all the time with sloppy wires and sloppy panels...lot of electrical hacks out there I guess..Hacked up panels,inspectors who just don't care..why even have codes if no one follows them?

[Hobbit]

Late Again:

Sorry to jump into this so late, but I thought this thread was all about E-mail!:D Of course, I guess it takes electrical panels to supply electricity to run computers that in turn run mail handlers. No off topic thread here!:D

Ladies and Gentlemen; now I readily admit my General's license has been expired for a couple of years---but, this seems way off to me!!:(

It has always been considered good practice to wire grounds and neutrals to separate bars, but not required at S.E. (service entrance) equipment. The S.E. equipment (and main disconnect) must be located within 10 feet of the meter base, in plain sight and accessible, with the main breaker located no higher than 72 inches(???) off the floor. The ground and neutral busses are bonded at the panel. If the S.E. (main disconnect) is located outside at the meter location it must be in a rated enclosure.

If a separate panel is used for the branch circuits it must be fed with four conductors and the neutral and ground busses must be isolated. This because the neutral is often times a load carrying conductor.

Not sure what JC meant about "220 plugs" needing "4 wires." Some 208-240 volt circuits (line pressure varies considerably) do require four conductors, but a lot of them do not. Neutrals are not required unless an unbalanced load is planned. For example a 230 volt range with all elements operating at line voltage (230vac) and a clock operating at 115 vac would require a neutral to carry the unbalanced load. A water heater typically does not (although it does require a ground). Most ranges and clothes dryers today require three conductor pigtails (although there are some four wire rigs out there) and some wire direct without a plug at all.

Also, driven grounds are now (and always have been) 8 ft. in length. Grounding to plumbing has been limited to cold water supply with a minimum of 20 ft. buried without interruption.

Of course, I could be wrong!!:D:D:D

[Cami A]

Hobbit, any thread with more than 3 posts has already started to wander...that's what keeps everyone reading! :D

[Bud Cline]

...so what are you trying to say Cami?

Are you saying that some of those guys have the attention span of a speeding bullet?

[Cami A]

See- one more post and we'll be onto another subject altogether.

Ummmm...what were we talking about?

[flatfloor]

The proper temperature for sauteing an email in an electric frying pan. Pay attention! :)

http://www.hallo-spass.de/gif/koch/koch003.gif

[Cami A]

Now wait jest a minute....weren't we talking about plumbing? ;)

http://hyperphoto.photoloft.com/view/exportImage.asp?s=cano&i=9610011&w=250&h=375

Jack liked using the pex system. This week's plan is to get the pex for heating laid in the garage and get the garage slab poured Friday- I'll finally have steps instead of milk crates!

[Hobbit]

Speaking of milk------------













:D

[jlbos83]

Anybody got a recipe for Ice Cream? Its supposed to 105 Saturday!

[Bud Cline]

This is the Computer Training Forum and the topic is "e-mail solutions". Where's the Moderator of this circus anyway? It's no wonder we can't get anything done around here.

I hate when these topics meander, there is absolutely no excuse for this behavior.

Now go to your room and don't even open the door 'til your called for supper.



I'm sick of this, sick, just plain sick of it.


Anybody know how these damned drive belts are supposed to go on the lawn tractor? I've been fighting this sucker for an hour. And don't tell me I have to drop the deck to do it, I ain't droppin no deck.

[flatfloor]

Why don't you just get a herd of sheep? They will mow the lawn. :D

Sharon, you out there?

[John Bridge]

That's plumbing? You're kidding. You expect the average Joe Plumber to learn how to do all that? You're kidding. :D

[Hobbit]

"Droppin the Deck." Is that what they call it these days? In my time it was called "droppin trow." Drive Belt?? Yours came with a drive belt?? Mine don't need a "drive belt."

Anybody seen my wife? Or my girlfriend? ;)


:D:D

[Cami A]

Hey Bud- ya gotta wash all the grass trimmings outta there first.

No....wait...the grass discussion was what derailed your marble sealer thread. What was the answer to that question?

(Actually, John, it's pretty basic. Each faucet/connection gets one hot and one cold line run to it. Each line can be shut off indivually. Perhaps that's the problem- too simple...)

Ice cream...mmmm....over hot bread pudding... (oh, sorry- that won't work when it's 105. Perfect for the 60's we've been having, though! :D)

[JC]

The 4 wire for 220 is two hots,one nuetral AND a ground. Before it it did not have a ground. This is for new appliances.(i believe you mentioned that)

The Nuetral and Ground bus bars are required to be separated in the main panel...unless your talking about "old work". The gound bolted to the panel and the nuetral insulated from the medal panel box.
eight foot ground rods?...I could have swore the were 6 foot long but you may be right the do suck to drive in.

Uninterupted..means bypass the water meter and the hot water tank..something else you should check out Cami.
There should be a thick bare copper wire clamped to your copper pipes on the hot water tank and the water meter.

I have actually seen more then a few jobs where the ground to the copper water lines....but the water main that actually goes into the ground is PLASTIC...yup

[Bud Cline]

I've seen that too JC, one of the many "Wonders of the World". I'm surprised there aren't more humanoid crispy critters than there are in this world.

[Cami A]

<sigh> Don't know much about e-lec-tricity...

OK, JC, I'll ask Jack if he did that... :D

...as long as it doesn't make any difference which water heater it's hooked to. ;) ;) ;)

..and we don't have no stenkin' water meter, senor...

[flatfloor]

Doesn't jacking that well pump tire you out?

[Cami A]

It's excellent exercise, and I'm considering entering the Tough Woman contest at the county fair this summer...


Yeah, right....:p

[flatfloor]

Boy Cami, your spelling is atrocious, that's steeenkin.:D

[Hobbit]

JC: et.al.

I'm glad this discussion came up because it gave me a reason to renew my NEC. As a point of interest however, the code (NEC) is updated every three years. The latest update just came out this year--the last one was 1999, which I currently have. The latest update (2002) does speak to pulling three conductors and a ground to 208-240 vac circuits. This was "news" to me, so I'm glad to have the opportunity to say so. This only applies to "new work". It is interesting to note that most(??) new appliances still do not have provision for the fourth conductor (ground). I made an informal survey today at a local big box. I found only two ranges equipped with 4 wire connections and no dryers. Water heaters have never! required a neutral and still don't! When I pointed this out to our local code man (Industrial Electrical Curriculum), he just shrugged and said, "Yeah, you just "nut" them together (unused neutral and ground) and bond to the ground lug." So----the wiring has to be there even if there is no provision to use it!! Makes you wonder-----?? :confused: :confused:

I think you may be a little confused about the bonding at the panel though. Or maybe we are just using different terminology. I verified my understanding of the code with our curriculum instructor (our college teaches the code). Lucky Me!!:D

I am going to check again with our local experts before I say any more!!:D

Howard

[JC]

The bus bar that is commonly supplied with the new panel is actually a nuetral bus bar becuase it has risers on it and/or insulation isolating it from actually touching the medal of the panel box..ok

Now some newer panels but not all yet don;t have two bus bar'a just the nuetral one.

What needs to be done to get it to code is to purchase separatly a bus bar and bolt it directly to the medal of the box hence makinf a ground bus bar.

Whites to the nuetral,copper to the ground. separated.

I am pretty sure of this since the first panel I ever did got denied by the code guy for this reason..this has been in effect since at least 96. Got the NEC buried around here somewhere..it took me 2 months to read that damn thing cover to cover...read...fall asleep with boredom...read fall asleep with boredom..took awhile. Think only 20 percent of it actually stuck..forgot 20 percent and 60 percent went clean over my head...the terminology can be very confusing with differant conclusions ..just like the bible..also you need to have working knoledge of terminolgy to even understand the book.

When you talk tyo the guy ..find out if it is actually code that outlets above counter tops have to be on "staggered circuts"? or every other one. This is when no two side by side ones would be on the same circut thereby reducing load from heat producing kitchen appliances. I know is is a good idea but not sure if it is the actual code..thx

[Hobbit]

JC:

You got it, I'll check. We have always had to install a minimum of two separate GFCI circuits in a kitchen, but they did not have to alternate. But I'll ask to be sure. Another good question. :)







Howard

[John Bridge]

Hold it.

The "neutral" buss bar, as you call it, does connect to the ground rod via a copper or aluminum bare cable that goes to it. That's still code here. I see them being driven into the ground all the time.

Every circuit needs to be "grounded." What you are talking about (bonding the box to the buss) is simply "bonding." You are bonding the service box as you would all the appliances (switches and plugs, etc.). That has nothing whatever to do with the "circuit" and it's ability to conduct.

Just as an aside, we still do not know what electricity actually is. ;)

[Cami A]

Don't we still have to define what "is" is? ;)

[Hobbit]

John:

Your terminology is more like mine. Everything you said is true--except you didn't carry it far enough. The discussion was about the bonding of the neutral to the ground and where it occurs. There have been quite a few changes in the National Electrical Code (NEC) in 2002. Some of these are very important and some not so. Example: the requirement for pulling four wires into every 208-240 vac circuit. This is a change. Even appliances that have no need for a neutral (water heater), are required to have the neutral conductor in the circuit. In other words, you can no longer wire a water heater with 10-2 w/ground in a 30 amp branch circuit. The new code requires 10-3 w/ground even though there is no place to connect a neutral on a water heater.

In all new work the code requires separate busses for the grounds (bare and green wires) and the neutrals (white wires). The two busses are electrically isolated from each other except at the service entrance where they are bonded. John you are correct about the driven grounds as well. They are required at the service entrance.-----------

Just thinking---------this explanation could get quite long. I do understand it and can explain it, but don't know if I should. Your call--I will if you want me to.

Howard

[JC]

By all means do. It is a nice way to keep up to date with constantly changing codes.

Ok heres some more, I will pose them in question form for the fun of it.


What is the maximum allowed distance that a wire staple must be placed away from a plastic zip box if the wiring is romex?

Also what is the proper distance of wire staple placing on a long wire..."every so many..."?

The exact distance into the joust that wiring must be away from a finished cieling?


Just fun stuff.

[JC]

How about this since this is a tile forum.

What are the specs for running wiring under tile as in the case of a wall.
I have run into this at my own house becuase I am putting tile over a old brick chimney that goes up in the middle of my kitchen.
I used a grinder to cut a groove in the brick to recess to wire that goes to an outlet on the chimney.

Now I was told by a very good electrician that he had re-checked the specs and that there is not any code requiring the use of conduit for this type of application and that I could just thinset right over top of the romex.

Imagine that. Anyone deal with this before?

[Hobbit]

Some interesting points JC. However, if I didn't know better I'd think you were trying to trip me up.??:D
I'm still reading the new code (its just as long and obscure as always) so don't have all your info yet.

I'll answer the last one first. Your electrician friend is most likely correct about the code. There is nothing in the code that specifically addresses this particular situation. However, several points come to mind. Romex (NM shielded cable) is not authorized in any location that is unprotected or damp. It has to be dry and enclosed. Can not be buried in the earth or concrete! Damp locations or burial require UF cable. As far as code goes--I'm sure you will agree that no code book can possibly cover all of the possible situations. That is why we have inspectors--to interpret the code as it applies to specific situations. I can't find any specific reference to a groove cut into brick in an inside location--!!!!:) Didn't really expect to.;) However, think about this. Romex in a wall cannot penetrate a framing member within 1 1/4 inches of the surface without being covered by a metal plate. Also, Romex is not allowed direct in concrete or to penetrate masonry (block, brick etc) without protection (read conduit). Incidentally, if conduit is used, THW or THHW is normally pulled, not Romex. So, I would say that an inspector would not allow you to install Romex in a wall (groove in brick), within 1 1/4 inches of the surface, damp location (thinset-- mortar) etc. with no way of anchoring the wire (as required by code). So, even though the code doesn't directly address your situation, you have to look at the parts of the code that do apply. I wouldn't even think of doing it. Put it in conduit.

There is one more important element to all of these discussions. Even though the NEC is the "bible" when it comes to electrical code, it doesn't always apply!! Confused??:confused: Don't be.:) Any agency that has jurisdiction over buildings and inspections (county or city building departments, inspectors etc.) can put into place, interpret, and enforce codes that are more stringent than the national code based upon local circumstances and conditions. They can't be more lenient, but they can be stricter!!:eek:

Now, a couple of your other questions. Romex to a wall surface while penetrating a framing member = 1 1/4 inches unless protected by a metal plate. Romex through joists in a floor or ceiling = 2 inches from the edge (center preferred). Romex penetrating multiple studs in a wall = 90 degrees to the stud (no angles). Romex fastened within eight inches of an electrical box (six is possible--depending on situation). Romex fastened at 48 inches mid-span (56 is possible depending on situation).

I'm still reading.:(

[Edited by on 06-19-2002 at 01:55 PM]

[JC]

Hmmm good point about the romex wire. It is not really a wet area and it is not in concrete and does not actually penetrate a support structure. But I too rather use the conduit just becuase it seems like a better way if nothing else.

I thought the distance from the zip boxes was 6 inches but 8 inches maximum sounds right.

48 inches for wire staples seems too big? are we talking about the same thing. I am talking about fastening the wire to the side of a joist and how far apart the staples have to be. 4 foot seems like it would sag alot..but you do see it done all the time like that.Double check that. I was thinking it was 18 inches for some reason. Could it be possible your talking about verticle surfaces? And I am talking about horizontal?

48 and 56 inches seem like the distances from light switches/kitchen counter outlets to the kick plate/cieling. But that would be verticle correct?

[flatfloor]

I think the Romex to your computer shorted, everything you typed is underlined. ;)

[Hobbit]

Jim-----thanks for letting me know, although I don't understand how that could be-----:confused: :confused: I always preview my posts and nothing showed up wrong on my screen!!:confused: I went back to the original post and reviewed it--It doesn't show anything wrong that I can find.

JC did you notice the underline thing that Jim mentioned? I can't figure it out.

Oh well, computers are VooDoo. They're all smoke, magic, and mirrors.

Sorry if I confused anyone, but ??????????????????:confused:

[flatfloor]

That's wierd, I went back and looked, except for a couple of words nothing else is underlined now.

Probably John's fixing something :D

[JC]

Me thinks one of the "u" underline codes must not have been properly closed coz I saw it too. Not there now though.

[Hobbit]

JC et.al.

The nailing distances are really a discretionary thing. Every agency I worked under had different ways of doing things. I got in the habit of using 6 inches from a box as my standard. I've never seen anyone require anything closer than 6 so it was always the safe way to go. Incidentally, that doesn't apply to panels. Branch circuit wiring must be fastened within 12 inches of a panel--I've seen it as close as 8 inches, so I always use 8 as my standard. The 48 inch span is correct. However, you are not allowed to let the wire "droop." Must be pulled tight and nailed. If this requires additional fasteners, then so be it.

Actually, box locations are really just recommendations. Most agencies like to see receptacles 12 inches off the floor, but what they really want to see is uniformity. They usually won't care if they are 10, 11, or 13 as long as all are the same! Same for switches. Wall switches at 48 off the floor, except if two switches are wired "back to back" on opposite sides of the same wall. Then as close as possible to each other.

In a kitchen, countertops must have receptacles wired over the top (20 amp small appliance circuits). Minimum of two circuits, receptacles 4 ft. apart (max), and protected by GFCI's. This applies only if the countertop is at least 12 inches deep. Recommended location is 12 inches above the finished countertop--unless there are wall cabinets above the counter. (Almost always). If wall cabinets are present, the receptacles should be located 1/2 the distance between the two. I can find no requirement for the receptacles to alternate----except if they wired in an unbalanced circuit (It's possible this has changed--though I haven't found it yet). This would be a three wire circuit (+ ground) where two breakers at the panel feed the two hot conductors and a common neutral is used for both. This allows you to pull one cable like 12/3 w/ground and wire two separate circuits. (Black wire goes to the first receptacle along with the white (neutral) and Red wire goes to the second along with the same white). Continues like this, alternating. Incidentally, you can also split each receptacle; top on one circuit, bottom on another.

I'll repeat. Bottom line on all of this is--your local agency can modify these requirements. They usually don't, but they can.;)

Got to go back to work. :D Next installment (last one) = Panels.

[JC]

Panels don't need the close staple rule becuase the wire is clamped also medal boxes that have clamps don't need the close staple either..that rule I believe is to keep the wire from rubbing too much on the side of a plastic zip box.

Yes I know about splitting the outlets (via the medal clip).

I do have one more question and something I see done incorrectly ALL THE TIME!!

When wiring a outlet I always use jumpers to goto the outlet(and always use the screws too), this is to allow juice to by-pass the outlet and it also keeps from having too much stress runniong thru the outlet(particularly on a large circuit).
Now see many jobs (professionally done allegedly) where all they do is bring the wire into the plug (via holes) and out the other end. Sure this is easier but is this up to code? It should not be becuase I have seen too many burned out cheapop 15 amp plugs in my time. Curious thanks

[Hobbit]

JC

Boy, did you hit on one of my all time pet grievances. :( Well, two grievances really although they're related to some extent.

First, the use of "backwiring" on receptacles has a fairly long history. I remember well when I was first exposed to it, about 1970. I questioned it then, and even more so today. I believe its one of the most unsatisfactory parts of the code that has ever been written. Backwiring allows "quick and dirty" assembly of the circuits, but there is no margin for error at all. All backwired receptacles have the potential to fail at any time due to poor metal to metal contact. This causes the contacts to overheat, arcing occurs, and ultimately failure! But sadly enough, yes, its still allowed.

Second, the wiring of receptacles in a series circuit. This can be done using the screw terminals or the backwiring holes. Although not as potentially dangerous (IMHO), this practice can cause infinitely more headaches. If any of the receptacles fail, the circuit is compromised and all remaining receptacles on the circuit on the load side will be non-operational. Now you are tracing a circuit backwards receptacle by receptacle trying to find the fault---if you even know where the circuit goes!! (Which most of the time you don't).

As you mentioned, the best way to prevent these problems is to wire all receptacles with "pigtails" in parallel, off of the line circuit. This way none of the "downstream" loads pass through any of the others. Any failure at a receptacle isolates only the one that failed, all others remain operational. And by all means, use the screw terminals, wrap the wire close and tighten the screws securely. (Oh, by the way, be certain to wrap the wire clockwise around the screw--the loop will tighten and close up when you tighten the screw);)

[JC]

New code.

I guess if my sorces are correct the new code says that 12/2 and 14/2 wires are now to have differant color romex coatings. The new 12/2 is now to be a sorta yellow color and the 14/2 is still white.

Also "can" lighting is not allowed to be in "cold air" spaces use by the furnace..they must be closed of with a piece of duct work allowing the air to pass by without effecting the can light. Never knew that one myself..not sure if it is new or not.