Not square problems

[sherry]

So, hired a contractor for tile and woodwork but now am worried. The thing that got me was the banging to fit a unit into a wall space. The unit is too tight, wall not square, but the contractor used a sledge hammer and forced it in after about fifteen some minutes of banging. The whole house shook. This to me doesn't seem right. Is this cause for worry?

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[Derek & Jacqui]

:crazy: Only if you wan't a house still standing when he leaves.

[sherry]

Thanks, so, really, should I be worried? More work is slated... tile, not square issue, what if it shows grout lines that appears out of the wall and runs two inches from the wall at the other end. Don't want to be, erm, overzealous customer, but... so please opinion me.

[Davestone]

You could check the other grout lines with other walls,to see if it's the house...but i would post some pics of the problem areas and see what people here think. :)

[sherry]

Tiles, grout, not down, so no pic... yet. Right now it's the wall unit. How much banging is really necessary? Is it a sign of things to come? Two other things broke today. Afraid to ask contractor anything now, got heated earlier.

[Davestone]

Frankly, if he built that unit..and he's a carpenter...there shouldn't be much bangin... and definitely not enough to break things.I'd put a halt to things temporarily to see if he wants to pay for damage and do it your way.Hopefully you're not upside down with the payments to him, and you have a contract with the words...to be done in a professional, manner. :)

[Davy]

Hi Sherry, did you check this guy's references before hiring him? It really helps to be able to talk to other homeowners he has done work for. This doesn't guarantee a craftsman but might keep you from getting a jackleg. :)

[jdm]

Sometimes things take a bit of "persuasion" from a (preferably rubber) hammer to get them to fit together. But 15 minutes of house-shaking banging with a sledge is another story. In a whole different book. Sledge hammers are typically tools for destruction, not construction. If you are looking for quality, I don't think you're going to get it from this "craftsman".

[sherry]

He had letters, refs, before-after pics. Seemed good and patient at first, but now there's this problem, though he has shown up. Please see attachment, how level is level? You can see, without a level tool, that it's not level. Pic shows two level tool readings. Contractor said wait til unit is done, he'd fix if not level, but with unit so tightly wedged, where's room to fix? It's wall wood wall. Contractor said no way to remove unit without damage.

[jdm]

The bottom level reading looks worse than the top one. Trusting the eye is tricky, because the unit could be level and the floor off, but your mind will tend to assume that the floor is level and the unit is off.

Since you have a digital camera, could you post a pic or two of the entire unit?
It would help to judge the overall quality of the work.

[sherry]

Okay, pic is at http://www.skyze.com/uploads/f7ee0acbde.jpg

[Splinter]

heh, Im guessing when he measured for this unit, he measured at the back wall. Now since that outside corner up by the front of the unit has a cornerbead and 1/4" of spackle on it, the front area is narrower. That would explain the 15 minutes of banging to get the entire unit in place. A sledgehammer wouldnt have been my first tool of choice, but Im having trouble thinking of other ways to get that thing in there without either modifying the unit itself or the wall to the right of it....

[jdm]

Sherry --

In the photo, the whole unit appears racked (twisted out of square.) Measuring on my screen, the right side of the shelf part is taller than the left side. And the middle two shelves appear to slope upwards from left to right and "bend" in the middle. Can you tell if any of this is correct.

And there is no way that cabinetry like that should be installed in the manner you described.

[sherry]

jdm, what you describe about the middle is pretty close, it's like a v shape. The top is deceiving b/c I'm not quite taking the shot straight on, though I tried, and the right side is pushed back a bit further than the left. I've been all over it now with a level, and the middle vertical pieces tip right, right, left. Here's another pic: http://www.skyze.com/uploads/81472ff7ec.jpg

[DIYOHMY]

I agree. Shelves do not look level or straight. Honestly, it's a pretty simple bookcase, and he should have measured correctly. Here's the problem - if he had to bang for 15 minutes with a sledge hammer, he probably over stressed the wood joints. Look carefully where the wood joins for cracks or gaps. If the wood is stressed, depending on the species and moisture, you could find cracks appear later as the wood shrinks and swells. What kind of wood?

If you are not satisfied, trust your instinct and get rid of him. You will probably not be happy with his work now anyway. If you are diplomatic about it, you should be able to get some of your money back.

[sherry]

Splinter, almost. It's the top right back that is pinched. When I look at the top right, it looks like _|\ from the top if that makes sense, and the contractor told me after the fact that he ripped away part of the right wall, claimed he planed the top right of the unit, but still had to sledge hammer. Oh, and he missed with the hammer, hitting the wall at the top right corner and by the first shelf on the left.

[sherry]

DIYOHMY, one spot now covered with trim looked splayed. I'll need to look more but when I asked about the one splay spot, contractor said it was b/c of screw, not hammer, said sometimes that happens. Oh, I don't know how to handle this situation, but there are worse things in life.

[sherry]

Sledge hammer wall marks where contractor missed unit and hit wall:

- left first shelf: http://www.skyze.com/uploads/5d8f115911.jpg
- upper right front: http://www.skyze.com/uploads/415d6a7f9f.jpg

Right side also shows part of ripped away wall, oh I feel sick. Contractor said he'd fix these, I don't know what to do. Maybe some zzz's would do me some good. Sorry for rowed posts. Thanks all.

[jdm]

Row, row, row your posts,
gently down the screen.

Fretfully, fretfully, fretfully, oh,
Now go have a dream. :)

(Another exciting Friday night!)

[catamount]

He had letters, refs, before-after pics.
A lot of people don't know any better. If this guy was worth his salt, he would have realized the out of level/plumb/parallel situation and would have allowed for it by shimming the case level and plumb, THEN installed the face frame scribed to match the walls and the floor. Simple, really, and if he calls himself a carpenter he should know this. What you have isn't right, and you know that or you wouldn't have asked. Make him fix it.

Good luck,
Rob

[shutterbug]

Another uneventful night, Jeff? :rolleyes:

Sherry, How's he going to rectify the situation? Perhaps a crowbar to the left corner to raise it a hair or maybe he can beat the right side down to be level with the left. I've never installed anything that needed more than a couple taps to get it in place. This guy is WHACKING the beans out of it!

IMO, throw him out!

[Davy]

Hi Sherry, I agree with the others. He didn't check the opening good enough to see if it was out of level and plumb. I would make him fix it even if he has to make a new cabinet. After seeing his mistake he should have taken the sheetrock completly out on the right side to get an extra 1/2 inch. This would have been better than taking a sledge hammer to the unit.

[sherry]

Ah, a new day. Personally, I don't think he should have removed any sheetrock, but as it is, he did remove some, telling me after the fact, how much I cannot see, unit in the way. Here's another, erm, not so funny. So you know how boards are made smooth, ready to stain, but one side is smoother than the other? Well, on a couple shelves the rough side is up, and there are nails sticking out all over. Didn't see these things last night, dark, tired, ho hum.

[Tool Guy - Kg]

As a master woodworker, it's time to go. Rip it out and build it again. Building a tight-fitting cabinet of that size is a challenge for anyone. If the carpenter isn't up to measuring an opening in all 3 dimensions before pre-building someting off-site, they need to build it on-site. There is no reason why this can't be built on-site. That way each piece can be placed tightly, while maintaining as level and plumb as possible. And if he says it's impossible to do that, he isn't qualified enough to continue working on your house. (a little side note: I see nothing wrong with removing a bit of drywall to make a square, level, & plumb unit fit snugly into an area that isn't so square...........and another note: woodworkers don't have sledgehammers in their tool boxes!!) The fact that drywall has been removed and the unit is still too large tells me he doesn't know what a tape measure is for. :wtf:

If this: 1) it doesn't fit, 2) isn't level, and 3) has nails protruding; this tells me that he has his "mastery of skills" lies in other fields than woodworking.

[sherry]

Tool Guy - Kg, he actually built it on site, in the middle of the room, and then picked it up and went to, ugh, sledge hammer it in. The more I think about this, the more absurd it becomes.

[sherry]

PS: Here's a pic of one of several protruding nails.

[Davy]

Hi Sherry, I think most of us here are craftsmen in our field, we'll, everyone but Opie and Todd. Just kidding guys. :D I don't think we are being too hard on this guy, seems like you have been very nice about the whole thing. I think most folks would have thrown this guy out by now.

[sherry]

Davy, thanks, but I wasn't too nice at end of last week, finally blew, said more than a couple four letter words, basically asked contractor WTF about the banging, wasn't pretty, even for me. :twitch: Of course that didn't help, but the feeling of vibrating on a different floor, opposite side of house, sledge hammer, racked shelves, cha-ching, yada, yada. Anyway, been floating around several sites, and like catamount said, "or you wouldn't have asked." New sitch for me, thanks for listening, need a resolution. Any least painful ideas?

[Davy]

Okay, so you blew a little steam. I wouldn't have a problem telling the guy this cabinet is unexceptable. The cabinet is twisted in the opening, he has the rough side of the wood showing and nails are sticking out. Tell him you expected his work to be done in a professional manner and it's not. Hope you haven't payed him yet.

[sherry]

Davy, oh I wish I hadn't made any payment, but he's got close to sixty percent of the deal, argh, for nowhere near sixty percent of the work. Feeling stoopid, live and learn.

[Tool Guy - Kg]

Holy CHIT batman! :shake: The whole point of building it on-site is being able to customize the sizes to the area easily. If I were him, I would have installed this piece by piece, each being as flat, tight, level, plumb, blah blah blah as possible. Then install the front face-frame as one pre-assemble frame.

My 2 cents:
Are there any parts involved with this project that you can steer him to do that you are comfortable and confident with him doing? What I'm thinking is getting him to do enough work to reach the 60% payment level you've already given him........then giving him the BOOOOOT. ????????? If your heart tells you that there is nothing he can do right, lock the door. Officially fire him in writing. Give him in writing how much work was done at what cost, and how much it will take to fix/finish his substandard work. Document/take lots of pictures. Organize your facts. File a report w/BBB. Take him to small claims court.

If he's as smart as he is skilled, he will make an arse of himself and things will sway in your favor......but probably ever so slowly.

[cx]

Sorry you're having problems, Sherry. :(

I do exactly that sort of work for a living quite frequently. Whether site-built or built off-site, a fella who has done more than one of those "captured" cabinet units would have built it with "scribe space" on the edges. This was aluded to earlier. You build the face frame a little larger than the box so you have room on the edges to trace lines to exactly match the walls of the opening and cut the edges for a perfect (or near perfect) fit. It's done alla time on accounta houses, even the ones I build, are not as square as cabinets most of the time.

His installation method is unacceptable, as well as his cabinet work with the nails sticking out. It's actually difficult to believe the guy would install a unit in that condition. I'm thinking you should maybe take a 60 percent lesson and see can you find a better craftsman. :shades:

My opinion; worth price charged.

[DIYOHMY]

Sherry - bottom line is this. you have the right to expect to get what you paid for - good or bad. I don't know how much you paid him... You have all the details, and you have to make the call. What quality do you expect? How much are you willing to pay for it? Regardless, if you are not getting what you paid for, and are not feeling good about the relationship... you are in a whole. First, STOP DIGGING!

You will be in a better position if you document what is going on, and take a stand now.
- Lock the door. Tell the contractor that you will be in contact soon, but the work on this job is complete.
- Log Discussions Make a list of key previous discussions, log the time and date, what what discussed, etc. In this list should be a few clear examples of how you made reasonable attempts to clarify expectations with the contractor
- Evaluate Completed Work Take detailed photos of his work. Make notes on major issues and get a specific photo for each issue.
- Get Objective Evaluation Call some other carpenters in for estimates to repair or replace the job. Tell them that a previous job was not completed and what you are looking for. Write down what they say... LET THEM DO THE TALKING... Don't tell them the whole story! Do not "probe" for justification. Do not plan to quote them!!! the whole point of this process is to get objective feedback on the cost to complete or replace and any major issues about the work completed. Note: If there are really major problems, you should expect common comments. If you probe, or lead them, you will spoil the objectivity, so don't.

next, get organized.
- Prioritize Complaints Focus on the top few and ignore the rest.
- Review your documentation review your discussion log, contract, supporting docs, photos, and make sure that your expectations are reasonable! if so...

Now you are prepared.
Send a letter to the contractor.
- Explain briefly that the quality of work does not meet your expectations.
- Explain briefly how you attempted to set and correct expectations (there should be at least a few examples.)
- Explain briefly why you are not willing to continue (due to the lack of communication, confidence, etc.)
- Explain briefly that you would respectfully like to reqest a portion or all of your money back. Be reasonable with this, consider his time spent, materials, strength of your expectations and how solid your agreement was. Consider asking for 1/2 back... You can ask for it all, but that's your call.

give him a chance to respond.

When he does, you'll have to decide what the next step is, but at least you will be prepared, and will have semi-objectively reviewed your situation in detail. Most importantly, stay out of the fluff. Little issues are easy distractions... stick with the big issues! And be nice. He probably has a totally different perspective, and you will do him and many of his future customers a huge favor by being nice and giving him constructive feedback. He will only hear you if you are being nice about it.

[sherry]

Good advice, thanks. In the process of documenting, here's another thing I found, didn't see before b/c floor was covered with drop clothes. Contractor was ripping up flooring, cutting, but set saw blade too deep. See http://www.skyze.com/uploads/20461ae27b.jpg The slats run left to right, the black stuff is old tile backing, the other lines are cuts made by contractor, around half way through the slats. Floor strength in this area is ruined, no?

[Davestone]

Probably....the best thing to do there is cut the hole back to the joists, and piece some plywood there...the least of your problems.You'll probably find it difficult to find anyone to come in and straighten anyone elses work out, though, so keep that in consideration,they'll probably charge a pretty penny,at the very least...but you might get lucky. :)

[sherry]

Update: contractor is gone, did documentation/photos, procured a lawyer, now the waiting game. Worried about getting another contractor. Is it hard to get a skilled someone to come in and fix someone else's mess?

[jdm]

Good for you.

As far as the cabinet goes, I would think that any decent contractor would just start over, so the finishing someone else's mess really doesn't apply. The few drywall repairs are no big deal.

[Tool Guy - Kg]

Did you boot 'em, or are they a no-show? Makes a difference.......take a day to relax, then review all the documentation, contracts, pics to make sure they are complete. It's a lot easier taking another couple photos or documenting an omitted detail now than it is in several weeks or months when it's not fresh in your memory. Get one of your friends who is analytical who hasn't heard about this yet, and show 'em your stuff. They may point out missing pieces to your collection of info. It'll make you sleep better knowing that you have your bases covered.

Sorry you have to go through this.

[sherry]

Talked with attorney, gave contractor the boot per lawyer advice. While house is messed, feel some solace that nothing else gets botched or ruined by this contractor. Got outside professionals to inspect, in short, they think work is shoddy and house is damaged.