new schluter matting

[Bri]

Hi
I heard a rumour today, that Schluter has a new matting coming out, that you staple down, and then lay the tile on top if it,...no mud on top..just thin set and then tile...almost like a pvc lath. Anybody else hear about this?

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[Bud Cline]

John should know he's close to Schluter now.

John is Schluter still having fresh donuts delivered to your front door daily?

[Bud Cline]

That reminds me (and I posted it here weeks ago) that someone is coming out with a DITRA "knock-off". Heard that from my Laticrete Rep. In fact it should be on the market by now. Seems like it was going to be a real pretty blue in color.

[John Bridge]

No, actually. Haven't heard a thing. It would not surprise me, though. Schluter is one agressive outfit when it comes to putting out products.

From only what Bri says, though, I don't think I'll endorse a staple down matt.

[Rob Z]

BRI

Terry O'Neil and I will rough some of those Schluter guys up when we get down to TCA in June for the class.

We'll get ALL the info you need. :D

[JC]

I am scared after the Mapelath disaster I just went through..I will need convinced.

[madmax]

Originally posted by Bud Cline
That reminds me (and I posted it here weeks ago) that someone is coming out with a DITRA "knock-off". Heard that from my Laticrete Rep. In fact it should be on the market by now. Seems like it was going to be a real pretty blue in color.


I think its made by Mapei. I saw a display of it the other day. It is a blue plastic lath. It looks like wire lath but its plastic. Aparently, you staple it down and then set tile over it.

[John Bridge]

Hi-tech scratch coat?

[flatfloor]

What happened, did i miss something?

[John Bridge]

I think JC must have used that stuff we tried to talk him out of a few weeks ago. Is that it, JC?

:)

[JC]

Yes John...what an abortion..total abortion.

The main tech rep for mapie in my general three state area.

Came to the job to help me(show me how) to do the job.

Since I was using the Mapecem (deck mud) method of with the lath instead of the more common thinset method it was a new issue for him to...(read: noone really field tested this?).

Well as stated before I chose this becuase..it was an option in the specs and I wanted something I could screed.

The specs said use regular water..but the rep insisted (for the warrantee to be good) that I use the additive..so I did.

This stuff set up fast and was terrible to work with..I blame the additive for making it kinda sticky. Also you had to mix it alot wetter then normal drypack just so to get it to penetrate the mesh better.

Well me and him tried to screed to stuff....with no mud guides that is..just floating over it basically..and you can imagine what it looked like the next day...rough and wavy...but hard as hell...I mean really hard. I was sickened.

I called the guy up telling him it was not nearly acceptable for tile (was hard to tell when we did it how bad it was and I did'nt want to really bitch since he helped me do the entire job for free).

Well he suggested patching it...I said no way it had to many humps to try to patch..besides the stuff is rock hard.

He suggested SLC...hmmmm.. I am now wondering if that would work.

The mesh was stapled down about every 2-3 inches on center (per his instructions).

Under the lath was a plastic barrier (as per mapie specs).

The surface was plenty srtong and rock hard.

The surface was an ideal bonding for SLC...kinda looked like a scrath coat.

So I said alright I will try it.

So I end up SLC'ing this floor with The Mapie SLC he hooked me up with to save this job...ok


Well the SLC went down fine but a few days later I noticed hairline cracks.

Got too busy with work and stopped in the other day...the cracks are indeed getting bigger.

Me thinks the SLC is lifting the entire mess off the floor dispite a million staples and the iron hard lath.

Now I am just absolutly sick...glad I am not in a paying customers job atleast.

Well now I am going to rip out the whole friggen mess right down to the plywood..wish me luck..What a nightmare!

I love Mapies thinsets and grouts but they need to stay the hell away from underlayments.

Funny I am the third guy in the area to have to rip out the plastic lath. They had other problems.

[Edited by JC on 05-02-2002 at 01:19 AM]

[stullis]

Scratch coat by any other name still doesn't work.

Hope you didn't have to pay them for the SLC.

By the way, NICE job on your website JC! You should think about getting into the computer field and get off your knees.

[flatfloor]

Under the lath was a plastic barrier (as per mapie specs).

This may be part of the problem, maybe nothing is bonded to anything because of the plastic.

Another problem, I wonder if the deck mud was cured yet.

[madmax]

Originally posted by John Bridge
Hi-tech scratch coat?

yea pretty much. I think most of the new installation methods on the market are junk. Yes some of them can save time and are cheaper but what good is that if you end up giving the savings back to the customer. You also are now left with an inferior job that you are expected to guarantee. How does that benefit the contractor?

To add insult to injury you now have opened the doors to all the low priced competition and every carpet layer, painter, handyman, and DIYer is now a tile contractor. The only guys that benefit from these methods are the painters, handymen, and the DIYers.

[Ron]

Apparently,Blanke(a German company that makes profile mouldings for tiles)has come out with a similar product to Schluter's Ditra.It's blue and is basically a copy but with round depressions.

Also Gutjahr in Germany has come out with their version of Ditra.I thought Ditra had a patent on their product that would prevent competitors.

[John Bridge]

I'm not an expert on patents. I know something about copy rights, though, and the two are pretty much the same. You cannot patent an idea, only a design (or word arrangement). Ditra is made from plastic that Schluter can't patent. They patent a mat with square depressions. End of patent. Of course the new company would make theirs round.

When I was at the Schluter seminar several months ago, Peter Nielsen stated they knew it was only a matter of time before competing products came to the fore. Schluter's stategy was simply to be there first with the most and get the name recognition.

I think they made it. Kind of like Formica and Xerox.

[flatfloor]

Sometimes your actually better off WITHOUT a patent. In order to get one you have to reveal all your technology. Makes it easier for a competitor to make an "improved" version and patent that.

[JC]

Well according to Dave G. Ditra has been on the US market for 18 years and before that it was used in Germany.
Correct me if I am wrong but is'nt there a time limitation also.

Yea Flatfloor the plastic must be the culprit.
Actually the specs do say plastic or tar paper and I opted for plastic and already had that installed before the Rep showed up. He said he would have just skipped the plastic.."afterall they have been doing it that way for years".....it scared me when he said that and the fact that he was in direct conflict to the Mapie official specs.
At the time I was convinced that having a cleavege membrane was a nessecary step in the installation system due to mimicking a Mud Bed install. He said it really did not matter and we installed it anyways.

The Mud had plenty of time to cure..about three or four weeks anyways. And it seemed very solid too.

I took the gamble with using the SLC over the floor knowing how SLC like to lift stuff up (stuff did seem very solid and rigid)...no documentation for this unique situation availiable..I spun the wheel and lost. Now I know..and if this situation ever comes up in your travels Flatfloor consider yourself warned. The force SLC must exert as it shrinks and wants to lift must be very strong to lift this type of floor and cause cracking

[JC]

Ok so how can I get more info on these new knock-offs..how to get them?

[John Bridge]

Glutton for punishment, are you? Why don't you let someone else test the stuff? :D

[JC]

Nothing ventured nothing gained. Besides ..it's fun and I learn alot that way.

[stullis]

They patented the shape of the holes in their metals as well. Seems they tried different shapes, squares, circles, ovals and found the current one to work the best.

[Sonnie Layne]

You mean I may benefit from all that?

Sorry, I grew up on the same side of the road you did, but I am a painter! ;) An honourable trade, we've got our station wagon bandits in my biz, too.

Hey, I'm always listening for improved methods and materials, but in my case it seems I'm trying to learn the tried and true mud methods. Seems only right that one should at least comprehend the fundaments, only then would I be able to really pass judgement on something else.

Stuck in the middle, but not for long... :)

[JC]

I am learning all methods..new and old..all the time..never stop learning, never know everything,and the more you learn the more you learn how little you really know.

[Ron]

Saw that Blanke verion of Ditra at Coverings.It's exactly the same as Ditra only different :) and they've copied Kerdi also.Except they are blue and their Ditra version has round cavities.

I've always been impressed with Schluter's products and they should be regarded highly for being innovators.Schluter worked hard to design and market their products focusing only on quality and customer support.I appreciate that and wouldn't even think of trying out a competitor's version.

[Sonnie Layne]

Took me a while to think of the song (I knew there was a song in there somewhere)...

From Don Henley... forget the title

"the more I know,

the less I understand"

boy, can we relate to that eh?

[Bud Cline]

Received an email from my friendly Laticrete Rep today who is also a Brick Manufacturer Rep, who is also a Blanke Rep.

He tells me that Blanke's new DITRA knock-off "UNIMat" is now in stock and samples are enroute.

Roll orders only.
1Roll: 3'3" X 98'5" Coverage 323 ft2, priced here at $1.05 ft2.

Someone check it out in your area and see what it is selling for will ya please?

[Sonnie Layne]

something's seriously wrong here, with the dates and my posts don't belong on this thread at all.

I'll go to computer forum and axe about it, sorry my responses seems so inapropro.

[Sonnie Layne]

OK, seems it's back on track again. Still a mystery as to how the dates got changed, but ya can't argue with every stray electron that comes along. :)

[John Bridge]

I can't find anything on it in English or in German.