Angels among us

[Bill Vincent]

This was written by a Hospice of Metro Denver
physician

I just had one of the most amazing experiences of my
life, and wanted
to share it with my family and dearest friends:

I was driving home from a meeting this evening about
5, stuck in traffic on Colorado Blvd., and the car
started to choke and splutter and die - I barely
managed to coast, cursing, into a gas station, glad
only that I would not be blocking traffic and would
have a somewhat warm spot to wait for the tow truck.
It wouldn't even turn over. Before I could make the
call, I saw a woman walking out of the "quickie mart"
building, and it looked like she slipped on some ice
and fell into a gas pump, so I got out to see
if she was okay. When I got there, it looked more like
she had been overcome by sobs than that she had
fallen; she was a young woman who looked really
haggard with dark circles under her eyes. She dropped
something as I helped her up, and I picked it up to
give it to her. It was a nickel.

At that moment, everything came into focus for me:
the crying woman, the ancient Suburban crammed full of
stuff with 3 kids in the back (1 in a car seat), and
the gas pump reading $4.95. I asked her if she was
okay and if she needed help, and she just kept saying
"I don't want my kids to see me crying," so we stood
on the other side of the pump from her car. She said
she was driving to California and that things were
very hard for her right now.

So I asked, "And you were praying?" That made her
back away from me a little but I assured her I was not
a crazy person and said, "He heard you, and He sent
me."

I took out my card and swiped it through the card
reader on the pump so she could fill up her car
completely, and while it was fueling walked to the
next door McDonald's and bought 2 big bags of food,
some gift certificates for more, and a big cup of
coffee. She gave the food to the kids in the car who
attacked it like wolves, and we stood by the pump
eating fries and talking a little. She told me her
name, and that she lived in Kansas City. Her boyfriend
left 2 months ago and she had not been able to make
ends meet. She knew she wouldn't have money to pay
rent Jan 1, and finally in desperation had finally
called her parents, with whom she had not spoken in
about 5 years. They lived in California and said she
could come live with them and try to get on her feet
there. So she packed up everything she owned in the
car. She told the kids they were going to California
for Christmas, but not that they were going to live
there.

I gave her my gloves, a little hug and said a quick
prayer with her for safety on the road. As I was
walking over to my car, she said, "So, are you like an
angel or something?" This definitely made me cry. I
said, "Sweetie, at this time of year angels are really
busy, so sometimes God uses regular people." It was so
incredible to be a part of someone else's miracle.

And of course, you guessed it, when I got in my car
it started right away and got me home with no problem.
I'll put it in the shop tomorrow to check, but I
suspect the mechanic won't find anything wrong.

Sometimes the angels fly close enough to you that you
can hear the flutter of their wings...

Psalms 55:22 "Cast thy burden upon the Lord, and He
shall sustain thee He shall never suffer the righteous
to be moved."

This prayer is powerful and prayer is one of the best
gifts we receive. There is no cost but a lot of
rewards, let's continue to pray for one another.

Here is the prayer:

"Father, I ask You to bless my children,
grandchildren, friends, relatives
and email buddies reading this right now. Show
them a new revelation of
your love and power. Holy Spirit, I ask You to
minister to their spirit at
this very moment. Where there is pain, give them
Your peace and mercy.
Where there is self doubt, release a renewed
confidence through Your
grace, In Jesus' precious name. Amen."

When Satan is knocking at your door, simply say, "Jesus,
could You please get that for me?"
Being blessed is GOOD...being HIGHLY FAVORED is best!
Don't settle!

[Sponsored Links]

[Eric Philson]

We can always look at intellectual reasons and outside evidence for why we believe that the Lord is alive and active in the world. And someone can always explain away experiences like yours. But inside yourself, you know who brought that about, don't you? Denying it would be like denying your own breath. Thank you for sharing that fantastic experience with us. And thank you for correctly assigning credit for this work to the one who made you. We all NEED to see that our creator loves us and is actively taking care of us. Isn't it a privelage to have been chosen and to be found adequate to carry out his purpose?

Eric

[Bill Vincent]

Amen to that, brother!! Here was my reply to the person that sent me that email:

When I first went into the navy, I was going to school up in Great Lakes. This one long weekend a friend of mine and I decided to make the 18 hour trip back to Connecticut to visit with my family. Coming thru southern New York state, at about 4 am, we hit a St. Bernard in the roadway, which totally destroyed my buddy's grill, and sent shards of it thru the radiator. At the time, I was seeing a girl from just north of Jamestown, N.Y., and we were about 2 hours past her house, so I gave her a call. She and her dad came out to help us (being that I had just enough money to make it home, and I had intended to hit my bank that saturday morning to get out the money I needed for the trip back). They ended up putting this aluminum powder into the radiator that was supposed to seal up small holes, and they cut out the bad ones and soldered them up. Well, we ended up spending the weekend at my girlfriends house, and monday afternoon, headed back to base. We got half way thru Ohio, and the radiator started leaking like a siv again, so we pulled off the first exit, and at the gas station at the bottom of the ramp, we were told of a radiator shop right around the corner. We went there and got the bad news that there was no saving it. If we wanted to get around the CORNER, much less back to base, we were going to need a new radiator, and neither of us had the money for it. At the time, I'd just bought a stainless rolex watch from the base exchange. I told the guy I'd leave it with him till I could send the money to him as collaterol. He just stood there for a minute, looking off into space, and then went into the back, and pulled a brand new radiator from out of a box, pressure tested it, and then put it into the car. I went to take my watch off, and he refused it. (I remember this like it was yesterday) He told me that he didn't want the watch, or any money. The way we could repay him was that if we ever came across someone in the same kind of situation that we be just as generous and help that person in any way needed.

What kept that car going until just that exit? And how come the gas station didn't take a look at the car, rather than sending us around the corner? I've got to tell you, financially speaking, that radiator cost me more than any other I've ever bought-- just on one occasion, over 200.00, but I truly feel like I was blessed that day, and several times since, being on the other side of the coin.

[flatfloor]

Nice stories, makes you want to go do something for somebody. :)

[Bill Vincent]

Well, don't let ME stop ya!! :D

Random acts of kindness ALL the way around!! :)

[Davestone]

Don't just sit there Flatfloor, do something for ME. :D

[John Bridge]

I don't have any affiliations with religious organizations or churches -- I'm an agnostic, maybe even an aethiest, but I do know there is something going on out there. What? I think there are good people. I think you run onto them every once in a while. I think there are more of them than people realize. :)

[Eric Philson]

I know several people who used to be atheists, but they aren't anymore. Wanna know what changed their opinion?

[Bill Vincent]

The Father gave em a peek! :)

[oma]

It's almost as if humans are supposed to be neutral. If a person does something bad, then "the devil" gets the blame. If a person does something good, then angels get the credit. How about there are just good and bad people out there, and most of us have a little of both, and some of us are working on getting better, and some of us just don't have a clue, and some of us are hellbent on making life miserable?

[Bill Vincent]

There is Good, and there is evil. Most of us, being the imperfect beings that we are, will listen to both at different times in our lives. Some will listen to one more than the other. That doesn't make us neutral. That means that we're exercising the power of choice that the Father gave us. That's FAR from neutral.

[Eric Philson]

As for me, the things about my self that are unbecoming, I readily attribute to me and me alone. But anything in me that is good, I can only give credit for that to the one from whom everything good comes. And that ain't me. :)

[John Bridge]

I don't mind arguing a little "religion." I KNOW I'm an agnostic. Not sure about the athiest business. :)

[Bill Vincent]

I am. :)

[doitright]

Hi Bill :)

Thanks for sharing the story and your experience!

It just so happens, my wife (Julie) is struggleing with her father being in and out of the hospital and now in a rehab center. He broke his hip a little over two weeks ago. They couldn't replace his hip until they helped get his heart strong enough. After the surgery he went to a rehab facility. Being disoriented with his new surroundings (he's 83), he tried to get up to go to the bathroom (he already had a cathedor and didn't have to go anywhere). Needless to say, he fell and broke his wrist (actually an inoperable fracture). He is right handed, and now his entire right arm is in a cast. When he went to the hospital ER to get his arm addressed, they established he was also anemic and needed additional blood. They also identified he now has C Def bacteria (sp?), and needs medication for that. We have now transferred him to another rehab facility, where he can hopefully receive the care he needs. He is still not eating, or even able to use a walker yet.

To make things more challenging, Julie's mom is blind, refuses any outside help (being a prideful survivor of the depression). Julie has a brother who lives within 3 miles to help with what he can, but he also has his own difficulties (scerosis of the liver, awaiting a transplant). Julie's other brother is in from CA temporarily living with mom, and lending assistance. I've been the one doing most of the legwork, and bringing mom back and forth to visit (before brother Rick came in town). This has been taking about another 4-6 hour chunk out of my days (of which I am more than happy to help). I thank God that I have a break in my normally heavy schedule.

Bottom line of my story: We need your prayers! :bow:

[Bill Vincent]

You've got em, John, as well as those of several other members, I'm sure. :)

[flatfloor]

Mine and Kathleen's also. I always enlist her in case mine..er...just in case. :)

[oma]

Bill, I wan't saying that human are neutral, I was pointing out that humans don't get the credit, good or bad, when their true self shines through. I do think that the good we demand from ourselves, comes from ourselves. It stems from self control, which when practiced dilligently, becomes part of our nature. I am of the school of thought that we choose how we want to be, but it's much easier to be a devil than it is to be an angel. It's a real battle of weakness vs strength of character.

[flatfloor]

Do genetics enter in, nurture or nature?

[Eric Philson]

Oma,
this might sound like a silly question, but, If the good that we demand from ourselves comes from within ourselves then, how did it get there in the first place? Why do you think it's easier to be bad than good? If we can freely choose, isn't it as easy to choose one as it is the other? I'm only trying to understand your point. Please expand on this.

Eric

[Bill Vincent]

Oma, we are ultimately responsible for the choices we make-- whether to act well or badly. However, the suggestion for either does not come from within.

[doitright]

Thanks for the prayers everyone! :bow:

This is going to be a long journey. I know I have a purpose. It sure wasn't by my design. I can't see through the forest right now, but I know God has the big picture, and I'm just a spec.

[Eric Philson]

God's got good enough eyes to see us specs pretty well. Hard times have purpose too. Embrace it and give thanks through it. Our prayers and hope are with you. These are exhausting and draining times. Make sure you get your sleep and eat well. Really. Your loved ones need you to take care of them, so take care of yourself too, for them.

Eric

[doitright]

Hi Eric :)

Have you been spying on me? :D

I am always grateful. I sincerely have a gut feeling this is a preperation for when my parents will need me. I have complete trust and faith in the Lord, no matter what happens. It was sad tonight seeing the look in my brother in law's eyes, as he looked at his father (in his weakened condition). He barely had two bites of his dinner. I'm trying to help feed him, and encourage him to eat. Not happening. Hopefully we'll have a meeting with the medical staff tomorrow, to guide us on his plan of recovery.

[John K]

John,

Good luck buddy. Its hell to have handle the day to day stuff in this business and deal with the situation your in at the same time. Prayers are with ya, take care. :)

[jjwq8]

John,
Where is your cape?
You have to be a superman.
Last year M and I had something similar.
I resolved it by taking two months off. (4 if you add the time spent in UK afterwards sorting other family dross).
God bless you and keep sane and safe.

[Bill Vincent]

"GOD HAS A REASON"
I thought in my heart that I'd give up and die, For the voyage was rough and why should I try? I floundered around in a turbulent sea, While the billowing waves kept crashing on me.
The storms raged wildly and the waters rose high. I knew I was drowning and I cried, "Lord, why?" I heard a voice answer...It seemed to descend From out of the clouds and the violent wind.
Then God whispered to me, "I see you down there, Swimming alone in your black sea of despair. I've watched as you struggled in life's hurricane. I've patiently waited till you called My name.
The waters are swift and it's so hard to sail, For when you ignored Me I commanded a gale. I sent the waves crashing in hopes you would see That you couldn't survive without help from Me.
If your life were easy and storms never came, Be honest, my child, would you call out My name? If you'll surrender your heart and give it to Me, I'll be there to calm the most treacherous sea.
The waters at once became still as a breeze. I said, "Thank You, dear Lord," and fell to my knees. My heart felt as light as a gull on the wing, And I lifted my voice His praises to sing.
Now when storms of life rage and waves billow high, I don't bother my Lord with questions of why. He gave me His promise and I understand I've only to ask and He will lend me His hand.
~ Author Unknown ~

[doitright]

Thanks for sharing Bill! :)

Reminds me of the first time I saw "Footprints". My whole life flashed before me in a matter of seconds, captureing all the times He carried me! :nod:

Before I came to Christ, I did call out His name (to not let me die - long story). Well obviously He didn't let me die. Then it was back to business as usual. Today I know better! :yipee: :bow:

[Bill Vincent]

Reminds me of the first time I saw "Footprints". My whole life flashed before me in a matter of seconds, captureing all the times He carried me! :nod:

Same exact thing happened to me. :) Still does, every time I see it, too. It's funny-- when I'm in a card or gift shop and I see it, as many times as I've seen and read it, I'm still drawn to read it again.

Here's another one I want to share with you. I actually found this on a "collector's plate" at a yard sale, and although I won't go into details, my finding it when I did was very timely:

God's Promise

God didn't promise
days without pain,
laughter without sorrow,
or sun without rain.
But God did promise
strength for the day,
comfort for the tears,
and a light for the way.
And for all who believe
in His kingdom above,
He answers their faith
with everlasting love.

[oma]

"However, the suggestion for either does not come from within."

That all depends on where you think you came from.

Genetics, nature, nurture.

I'm not so sure that genetics has anything to do with anything. Nurture probably tends to be beneficial, but even with tragic backgrounds and life histories, most people are touched at one time of another by a kind gesture, a gentle smile from a stranger, or a helping hand. Being exposed to the satisfying feeling generated by these thoughtful and kindly acts gives one some insight to the rewards of loving behavior, and hopefully kindles some kind of positive changes.

I don't adhere to any particular brand of religion, but at this point in my life, I tend to think that we all come from the same source. Call it what you will. Since we come from "the source", we have the potential for Godly behavior. The reason I say it's easier to be a devil than an angel, is because it is the path of least resistance. It's easier to take than to give. It's easier to over-indulge than to control various destructive appetites.

[oma]

And then, on the other hand, I may be completely wrong, and if I am, I'm okay with that. The only reason we labor over these matters is that we are emotional, over-analyzing creatures who want to think we have some kind of control and a secure happy future.

[Bill Vincent]

Agreed-- which is why gluttony (not just of food, but excess of ANYTHING) is considered to be one of the seven deadly sins. It's one of the easiest to get caught up in.

[tileguytodd]

Wow, a thread on religion that really took off!!!
Bill ,very good stuff.
John,hang in there,help is on the way,believe it!!

Many of you probobly are not aware that I am a PK
Yep,born a preachers Kid and labeled as such.went through alot of normal rebellion etc and found some very simple truths along the road.

Believing to the point of just knowing and having faith in the knowing is very powerful.God put natural laws into this world and understanding them makes life just a bit more bearable.
It isnt enough just to ask,you need to already know that the asking is taken care of,Thats faith!!

Some say "you reap what you sow"
Others " What goes around comes around"
It is called the law of reciprocity not just a saying.learn this one well!!!

I had a friend who claimed he was an athiest.We were out fishing one day and he began to tell me this in so many words.
I said to him this.
So, you do not believe there is a heaven and a hell and that we are not accountable.We can do anything we want for our 70 or 80 years without concern of being eternally (forever)damned to a lake of fire.
Let me ask you this one question.
What if YOU are wrong???

I left him to ponder the ramifications of that question.

After about 5 minutes of silence(and still no bites,remember we were fishing) He began to ask me questions which i did my best to answer.
Those few minutes alone in a boat changed his life forever.I may never see this happen again in my lifetime but i know that one time I made a differance :)

Remember
A rainbow is a promise
A Butterfly is a hint
And a Tree is a miracle,if you dont believe me,stand below a giant redwood one day and then tell me it aint so :)

Now you have just a little more insight into who I am.
I'm still working on that turn the other cheek thing :D

[doitright]

Hi Todd :)

Isn't it great when God uses you as an instrument of His love? ;)

[Bill Vincent]

Amen to that! Sometimes, once is all it takes. I stand and look around me at the mountains and the lakes I live around, at the waves hitting the beach, at a beautiful autumn day, and wonder how ANYONE could possibly believe that this all "just happened". Even when I first decided to go off on my own. I had been struggling with whether or not it was the right thing to do. My (now ex) partner, who was my apprentice at that company, had left on HIS own about 4 months prior, and we'd been working together with me on a sidejob basis, and then he got an offer to do some work that would have required me taking about a week and a half off, just after I'd taken my annual vacation time. This job was saving a project from the screwups of another crew, and we stood to make about $4K each for about 8 days of work, and at the time I was so deep in debt, I couldn't see daylight. So I decided to be straight with my employer. I went directly to meet with the owner of the company this one saturday and ask him for the time (the work was in Connecticut, so it wasn't even his area) to do this work and get some bills paid. When I got to the showroom, he wasn't there, so I spoke with the showroom manager and told him my intentions. He got on the horn and called the owner, who said he'd be down in a while. Meanwhile I waited outside for him to get there. During that time I was talking to my wife, who was sitting in the truck, telling her my feelings of not being sure if this was the right thing to do-- possibly quitting a job with plenty of security based more or less on one good job, and then the strangest thing happened. (Keep in mind, my wife and I are big fans of the series "Touched by an Angel", where at the beginning and end of every show it shows the Holy Spirit coming in and leaving respectively, as a white dove)
As I stood by my truck, looking around, this white dove flew over and landed right next to me. I mean, he stood there not a foot and a half away from me, looking up at me. I knealt down to extend my hand for him to perch, and he'd walk off a couple of feet, but never broke his stare, and as soon as I'd stand back up, he'd come back over. I'd been PRAYING for some kind of sign that I was doing the right thing, and after that, I didn't question it again. After I went in (and obviously DID end up quitting), when I came out, that dove was perched in a tree pretty close to the door of the showroom, and as I walked out, it was as if he saw it was all good, and his job was done, and at that point, he flew off.

And then people ask me why my faith is so strong. :)

[Eric Philson]

When we look at our world, at the disintegrating state of humanity, like Todd mentioned and at the relative ease with which we do evil as opposed to good, like Oma pointed out, one thing seems clear to me. The biblical discription of the fallen nature of man and the universe seems to be demonstrably true. Why else would it be easier to destroy than to create? The universe leans toward chaos and biblical teaching offers the only explanation out there as to why that is the case. Skeptics deny and try to refute. they offer evidence for varying things. But they can't answer the questions of the principle driving forces of our existence. The bible offer answers to those issues.

Eric

[John Bridge]

Well, I told you I was not at all sure of athiesm, but I am damn sure I'm an agnostic. I have a question for Todd. What if YOU are wrong? No big deal, right? :)

And I'll remind you all of one little thing, here. Our visitors are of varied faiths. They are not all Christians, and for that matter, they may not all be believers in one god. Pray, keep that in mind.

Carry on. ;)

[Eric Philson]

I, for one, don't mind at all discussing other faiths( which, by the way John, is what agnosticism is too :) ). I would like to hear other views, even viewpoints opposed to mine, as long as I can respond by giving my view too and not be accused of bigotry, idiousy or worse.

So, John. You believe in a creative force, a God so to speak, but not one that's actively involved in the universe? That's my understanding of agnosticism. Is that the case?

[Bill Vincent]

Well, I told you I was not at all sure of athiesm, but I am damn sure I'm an agnostic. I have a question for Todd. What if YOU are wrong? No big deal, right? :)

And I'll remind you all of one little thing, here. Our visitors are of varied faiths. They are not all Christians, and for that matter, they may not all be believers in one god. Pray, keep that in mind.

Carry on. ;)

I begrudge no one their faith, so long as they don't begrudge me mine. That, NO ONE will ever destroy. :)

[oma]

I don't at all mind religious discussion either, even if I am the only differing opinion in a crowd. Exposure to differing viewpoints will either reinforce your own beliefs or open your mind up to other options.
John, my impression of Agnosticism these days seems to be much different than the original religion. Am I wrong on this? If I remember correctly, the original Gnostics had a much more organized sect than those who currently consider themselves Agnostic. Is this two separate religions, or does a present day Agnostic just mean that you don't really have a concrete opinion?

[oma]

I meant to add something else to the discussion. Several of the world's significant religions have very similar explanations, if you will, of the origins of man, the first sin, the struggle for good over evil, and so on. Even native American lore has parallel stories to the biblical book of Genesis.

[Bill Vincent]

Oma-- you're not the only differing opinion in this crowd. The others just haven't spoken up. I know from threads past there are several confirmed aethiests in here. :)

[Eric Philson]

Check out agnostic here.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/agnostic.htm

Not to be confused with the gnostic religion. A different thing.


Oma,

you're right. there are other creation stories from varying peoples that parallel that of the bible. That seems to validate the biblical account rather than reduce its' grandeur though. The historical belief in a universal flood also saturates many widespread civilizations. They obviously don't replicate the entire biblical account, though.

Very interesting also is that much archeology has validated much of the biblical account that can be verified archeologically. Also, there is a change presently occuring in the scientific arena in which many scientists are bringing under scrutiny, if not abandoning altogether the theory of macroevolution. Although that alone does nothing to verify the bible per say. The historical accuracy of the bible is also a great and revealing topic. Of course, none of this alone can validate the 'message' of the bible with irrevocable proof.

Eric

[Bill Vincent]

Speaking of science vs. religion, this might interest you:

Something to consider...
You can't prove God exists. It has to be accepted by faith...........but......For all you scientists out there and for all the students who have a hard time convincing these people regarding the truth of the Bible...here's something that shows God awesome creation and shows that He is still in control. Did you know that the space program is busy proving that what has been called "myth" in the Bible is true? Mr Harold Hill, President of the Curtis Engine Company in Baltimore Maryland and a consultant in the space program, relates the following development. "I think one of the most amazing things that God has for us today happened recently to our astronauts and space scientists at Green Belt, Maryland. They were checking the position of the sun, moon, and planets out in space where they would be 100 years and 1000 years from now. We have to know this so we won't send a satellite, up and have it bump into something later on in its orbits. We have to lay out the orbits in terms of the life of the satellite, and where the planets will be so the whole thing will not bog down. They ran the computer measurement back and forth over the centuries and it came to a halt. The computer stopped and put up a red signal, which meant that there was something wrong either with the information fed into it or with the results as compared to the standards. They called in the service department to check it out and they said "what's wrong?" Well, they found there is a day missing in space in elapsed time. They scratched their heads and tore their hair. There was no answer. Finally, a Christian man on the team said, "You know, one time I was in Sunday School and they talked about the sun standing still." While they didn't believe him, they didn't have an answer either, so they said,"Show us". He got a Bible and went back to the book of Joshua where they found a pretty ridiculous statement for any one with "common sense." There they found the Lord saying to Joshua, "Fear them not, I have delivered them into thy hand; there shall not a man of them stand before thee." Joshua was concerned because he was surrounded by the enemy and if darkness fell they would overpower them. So Joshua asked the Lord to make the sun stand still! That's right-"The sun stood still and the moon stayed---and hasted not to go down about a whole day!" The astronauts and scientists said, "There is the missing day!" They checked the computers going back into the time it was written and found it was close but not close enough. The elapsed time that was missing back in Joshua's day was 23 hours and 20 minutes-not a whole day. They read the Bible and there it was "about (approximately) a day" These little words in the Bible are important, but they were still in trouble because if you cannot account for 40 minutes you'll still be in trouble 1,000 years from now. Forty minutes had to be found because it can be multiplied many times over in orbits. As the Christian employee thought about it, he remembered somewhere in the Bible where it said the sun went BACKWARDS. The scientists told him he was out of his mind, but they got out the Book and read these words in 2 Kings: Hezekiah, on his deathbed, was visited by the prophet Isaiah who told him that he was not going to die. Hezekiah asked for a sign as proof. Isaiah said "Do you want the sun to go ahead 10 degrees?" Hezekiah said "It is nothing for the sun to go ahead 10 degrees, but let the shadow return backward 10 degrees.." Isaiah spoke to the Lord and the Lord brought the shadow ten degrees BACKWARD! Ten degrees is exactly 40 minutes! Twenty three hours and 20 minutes in Joshua, plus 40 minutes in Second Kings make the missing day in the universe!" References: Joshua 10:8 and 12,13 2 Kings 20:9-11

[John K]

Wow. Excellent story Bill.

Just out of curiosity. Where do "Aliens".( and not the fence jumper kind) fit into this whole picture? Also what about people like John Edwards that talk to the dead? Or near death experiences? Just wondering what your thoughts are on this.. :)

[tileguytodd]

John, If I am wrong what is the worst thing that happens??
I tried to lead a life based on the basic premis of being a decent human being.I die and thats it.
If an agnostic or an athiest is wrong,I cant be sure of what will happen.I would have hope that if the person led a decent life they would be spared the agony of the alternative,however the consensus seems to be a rather bleak future if one reads the bible.(one can never be certain of this though as mans interpretations are quite often pretty screwed up IMHO)
If your a percentages guy,you would be hedging your bets though. Eternity seems to me to be a very long time ;)

I do not begrudge anybody thier beliefs or non beliefs.I do not want to preach.I am not fanatical about religion.I believe what i believe and allow that freedom of choice is a universal law.If i am given a podium to discuss anything I would care to discuss it would likely be Tile,music,hobbies etc.If i am approached specifically on the subject of religion however,I do not and will not deny my faith or beliefs, and will provide to the best of my ability any answers to any questions put to me just as i would any tile question put to me :)

[Westie]

Todd : but what if you picked the wrong "god" to worship. There are so many religions each with their own god, how do you know you have the right one? Isn't worshipping a false god worse than not worshipping one at all?

Bill : http://www.snopes.com/religion/lostday.htm

[Bill Vincent]

Wow. Excellent story Bill.

Just out of curiosity. Where do "Aliens".( and not the fence jumper kind) fit into this whole picture? Also what about people like John Edwards that talk to the dead? Or near death experiences? Just wondering what your thoughts are on this.. :)


John, the short answer is I don't know HOW it all fits together. But rest assured, it does. I've got alot of theories, but I've got alot more questions than just the ones you posed to ask once I get there ( and the location of Elvis ain't one of em!)

[Bill Vincent]

Westie-- I'm not one who waited for proof to believe in the one True God. I was raised a catholic, and although I've renounced my religion (and all others, for that matter) I'm still just as strong a Christian as I was as a child. However, even if I HAD waited for proof, I'd still have the same belief system. I've had too many times in my life where the only thing that kept me from going down the tubes was Divine intervention. Several of those times, I didn't even realise it untill the crisis was long past and I had time to reflect on it, more or less like an outsider looking in, but there have been a few times in my life that it was obvious even as it happened. I KNOW my faith is well placed.

[doitright]

Hi Bill :)

We must be brothers (in Christ)! Very similiar story for me! :nod:

I thank God for His Grace & Mercy! :bow:

[Albert]

ya'll got it right. i'm lucky to be here and alive. actually, it's more than luck. someOne's lookin out for me.

albert

[Eric Philson]

Westie,

Although I agree with bill's post, I'd like to add that I do think there is a reasonable approach to arriving at just which god is the true one. Can I prove who the real God is scientifically? No. Or with philosophy? No. But both science and philosophy can be helpful to a limited degree. Ultimately, though the true god who is God is capable of revealing himself to you. The scripture is specific that those who seek Him will find Him. All that I can personally tell you is that He has revealed Himself to me in a way that I understand and can identify as being Him, the one true God. So my main evidence for who the true God is lies within my own self. It is not an emotion, it is a realization of the source of my very existence. And without getting extremely wordy, all I can say is that my creator has made Himself known to me. This may not constitute solid evidence, but it most certainly is a personal witness.

Eric

[Bill Vincent]

Eric, I couldn't have said it any better. :)

[RandyL]

Hmmmmmmmm........looks like I'm headed for a lake of fire.........

[Eric Philson]

why so Randy?

[Westie]

I'll join you there Randy. Maybe we can throw a few steaks on the fire there and have a few beers. :)

[RandyL]

I'm not to sure Westie......I figure we can have a quick beer or two while we wait in line but, I figure once we jump in we're pretty much fried.........How long can you last in a firey lake? 1 maybe 2 seconds? :uhh:

[Westie]

Never tried the firey lake but I've been in a frozen lake for a couple of minutes.

[RandyL]

Did ya fall in or are you talking about a polar bear plunge? :)

[Sonnie Layne]

As would be expected, I'll fall into the ring with JPB and Todd the Minnie....

My karma ran over your dogma. I'm really sorry about it, but that's the way the cards were dealt. I won't make light of anyone's beliefs in how the world works around themselves. I personally don't give a hoot. Agnostic squared. I do, however give a hoot about anyone's best interest from their own concept and I'd fight for that right.

poet

[tileguytodd]

Todd : but what if you picked the wrong "god" to worship. There are so many religions each with their own god, how do you know you have the right one? Isn't worshipping a false god worse than not worshipping one at all?

I believe this has been answered and couldnt add to it anything that would be a life shattering revelation .

The world revolves day by day in a constant struggle between good and evil.
Sometimes good and evil are a matter of perspective it seems,but, it only seems that way.As humans we know there is a right and a wrong because we have a conscience.

Why do we have a conscience?What purpose does it serve??

[Bill Vincent]

SOmetimes I wonder if our conscience isn't more of an intercom system. :)

[doitright]

No wonder I'm always talking to myself! :D

[Eric Philson]

Good morning Bill. :) The conscience is a fascinating topic, especially when we try to identify the source of that inner voice. Not sure what it is, but one thing I do recognize. It seems to desire rightness and justice. But some folks define that differently. So does that effect everyones conscience differently? I just don't know.

Eric

[Eric Philson]

Good morning to you too John. :)

[Bill Vincent]

The way I see it, those who WANT to hear God speak to them, will. Some don't even reailise who it is trying to give them a nudge in the right direction, and then there are others who just won't listen.

Well, I'm outa here for right now-- got 350 feet of durock to put down today. I'll be back later. Play nice!! :)

[doitright]

Good morning - Eric, Bill :)

I view that inner communication as that God shaped void. We're all looking to fill it with something. However, there is only one thing that will work. Once you realize that basic need, everything else is a walk in the park. We sometimes don't know what the right thing to do is. If we pray about it first, that intercom Bill was talking about, will communicate. It might be scary, but He will lead the way, if we have faith. If we fall, He will pick us up.

[Bill Vincent]

I agree-- sometimes He doesn't just pick you up-- sometimes He CARRIES you. :) See ya!

[Eric Philson]

Yep. In fact, I here that voice right now telling me to go to work. I think I'll heed it. Be back later. Have a good one.

[John K]

Bill,

Durock! What happened to plywood or Ditra??? :) I( and helper) installed 92 sheets of Wonderboard the other day, and it sucked! :cry:

[Bill Vincent]

More and more around here, contractors seem to be demanding that their tile be set over CBU. Don't get me wrong-- I still prefer plywood, but there are alot of morons giving plywood a bad name up here, just like everywhere else.

[mrjetskey]

you have only to look at the pictures taken thru the hubble telescope to realize how infinetly small we are.Heck some of the systems are so far away they could have died a 100 million light years ago ,yet the light given off by them is just reaching the cameraand when you think it takes a beam of light less than a second to go around our earth 7 times.I think we are very blessed to be able to live in a time such as this.Heck our planet here has made such giant leaps in technology in the last 50 years.heck 40 years ago there was no color tv,now you sit reading a color computer monitor that allows you to communicate with anyone else in the world.There must be GOD as too many things have happened to each one of us that cannot be explained.Some of us chose not to remember them so no one thinks us a bit eccentric.But I am sure all of us can remeber a time or circumstance that cannot be rationally explained.Hence there is GOD.Wow did I get off on a tangent or what??GOD BLESS and have A great Day!!

[flatfloor]

God is God no matter what name you use.

[tileguytodd]

And Why do we have sayings like
"Stop listening to your conscience and it will go away"

or another liitle phrase for the unexplainable
"Divine intervention"

Why are no 2 snowflakes ever alike??

Who feeds the birds??

Tomato,Fruit?? Vegetable??

Why do we have flowers? What purpose do they serve??

What purpose DNA?? Fingerprints??

Why is it so difficult for a Rich Man to gain entrance to the gates of heaven??
Is it because he has no need to cry out in the darkness??

What are Ghosts?where do they come from?Why are they here?

Are there Aliens?and if so where do they fit in the scheme of things??

We have apparantly had visitors but no 1st contact,Why??
Why would an alien race travel the distance required and not attempt contact??

Why have the Jews been persecuted throughout history??
Why not the Norwegians or the finlanders or the spanish??
What race did the Jews ever enslave??
The Vikings were known for savegery and the spanish subdued an entire continent why are the Jews treated as leppers and not these others??
Why do we have night and day??
Why is blood blue on the inside and red on the outside??

Why do we have so many languages on such a small planet??
Considering most of humanity started in one small area of this world and spread from there you would think some common elements to an priginal tongue would remain yet languages are vast in thier differances even within regions as small as some american states.Why???

[oma]

"We have apparantly had visitors but no 1st contact,Why??
Why would an alien race travel the distance required and not attempt contact??"

Because if there are aliens who can come here, they are far advanced in comparison to us, and they know how uncivilized we can be. We would react violently out of fear (not all of us, but a great number). Their presence would destroy our political and religious structures, and the majority of mankind on Earth would react in a hostile manner. I have no idea if there are aliens or not. Never have seen one or any evidence of their existence, but I am aware that many people do make claims.

[flatfloor]

Oma, you obviously have never met bbcamp. :D

[Hamilton]

I suppose this is man made? Aliens? A message from god? who knows looks
really neat though :) Check this out (http://www.lucypringle.co.uk/photos/2004/uk2004cf.jpg)

[doitright]

Actually my helper did that while he was learning to use the 4000 psi pressure washer while cleaning a wood deck with a 0 degree tip! :D

Hi Jack :)

Sincerely, I guess it depends on how big that was. Wasn't next to a cornfield, was it?

[oma]

So bbcamp proves the existence of aliens? Or has been abducted by them? I've never met an abductee first hand. Where is he? I've got questions to ask. Or does bbcamp prove the existence of God? In that case, I still have questions to ask.

[Hamilton]

Not really sure john, looks like its in some form of farmland. ive seen obvious
fakes on the net and also fakes claimed by groups of folks and statements
by the same fakes sayin some of these things cannot be faked in the time
amount they are created. also if you do a bit of reading there are chemical
differences proven by scientists that discern the fake difference from the real.
I wont back myself into a corner and say they are real or not ive got no proof
mehself, just postin a pic,.. yall decide. God bless wether or not these are
from, for or against, stay kind and dont be blind.

[jay f]

All I can say is what do you think Guru Of the Deflecto really stands for? :)

[Sonnie Layne]

Thanks Jack, we like pichers.

My limited imagination yields that I need them to know what everyone is talkin' about. Serially, I like pichers even if the others don't admit it.... that I like them, that is :D)

I live with an angel
with an angle.
Either that or I'm s'posed to believe
I'm as good as she says.

Nothin' inside me comes close to angelhood.
The sweetness of her words, however misguided
have effect on how I spend my life, however.
I spend it eternally cooking breakfast so I can hear more.

Angels make the coffee,
so maybe we start our day in a pleasant way.
Their wings sheild us from the showers
that would otherwise make our evenings long.
They check us out at the grocery
or the wine shop.
They let us in line in heavy traffic
in spite of the objections of mortals honking behind.
They live every minute in our lives.
They live every time we change.
They don't exist without us.
Kinda like extensions of ourselves,
and we are the creators.
I don't care who honks behind me.

[Bill Vincent]

I suppose this is man made? Aliens? A message from god? who knows looks
really neat though :) Check this out (http://www.lucypringle.co.uk/photos/2004/uk2004cf.jpg)

Aw heck-- I did that in a foyer once!! :D :D :D


Sonnie-- that was great. :) Thank you.

[tileguytodd]

http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/cgi-bin/tw/booklets/tw-bk.cgi?category=Booklets1&item=1104414543

http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/cgi-bin/tw/tw-mag.cgi?category=Magazine35&item=1109664001

http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/cgi-bin/tw/tw-mag.cgi?category=Magazine35&item=1109664028

[Tool Guy - Kg]

Wow!
Obviously I don't spend enough time in the mud box. I just found this. :yipee:

Bill, thank you for sharing such excellent stories. John, hang in there all right, prayers on the way.

From one of the wisest men I know: "Never had a bad day that started out with prayer."

[doitright]

Hi Kurt :)

The WB Saltguard should be good for many years to come. We used about 110 gals. at Grainger a few years ago, and it's still functioning.

Thanks for the Prayers.

Anyone watch Charles Stanley on Sunday mornings? Great teachings!

[Tool Guy - Kg]

110 gallons!!!!! :eek: My 5 gallon jug was like a hundred somethin' bucks if I remember right......so if you have 110 gallons times a-hundred somethin' dollars per 5 gallon jug.....let's see carry the 1........divided by the remainder......that would be.....oh yeah.....a poop load of money! No wonder why Grainger has to charge so much for a pair of wire cutters.

[doitright]

Hi Kurt :)

Pricing was a bit better for us. We used two 55 gal drums. I rigged an 12 volt electric pump to 100' of hose, and a spray wand. Extended wire to vehicle battery (on a box truck). Drove truck, and sprayed as fast as we could put it down. Remote areas where covered with backpack sprayer. With the labor included, it was a good day! :)

[tile contractor gal]

Aliens and the devil DO exist, George Bush is proof of both. God bless my Democratic Californian soul! (I've been too damn busy working to spend much time on the computer lately, but I couldn't resist that topic!)

[Hamilton]

Aliens and the devil DO exist, George Bush is proof of both. God bless my Democratic Californian soul! (I've been too damn busy working to spend much time on the computer lately, but I couldn't resist that topic!)
ROTFLMAO :rofl: You need to stop bein so busy and come by and say hi more
often.

[tileguytodd]

Oh sure Jack,suck up to the democrats :D

If JFK were alive today he'd run as an independant.
Why you ask,Because he could look back and see what LBJ did to screw up everything he started ;) (and he would be pissed!!! :D)

[Sonnie Layne]

So aliens, angels, angles, Grainger and George W. all exist at the same thyme???

Wow... blow me over with a sliver of a silver spoon...

I don't know... I guess religion exists, if worry equals prayer. In that case, it kept my MIL alive last night. I just don't feel I owe anything to anyone for it, I'm just glad she pulled through. Or maybe it was my worry that pulled her through.? S'pose it's like all other beauty. It's where you find it. That's important. Hell of a fix... religion on a tile forum. How 'bout tile on a religious forum? Where would that lead us? :)

Forgive me my thoughtless indulgences. I don't spend unough time on the boards nowdays to poke jokes. But at least hear I've got writes, eh?

[tileguytodd]

Sonnie, did ya ever wonder with some of the troubles youve experianced the last few years if somebody was trying to tell you something??
I have to wonder, If you tried it could things get worse?? ;)

Just thinking out loud here buddy,just thinkin out loud!! :)

[Eric Philson]

A tile mosaic of the last supper. Yeah, that'd fit in on a religious forum. Sonnie, I'm glad everything is ok for now. I don't know the details of the problem, but it sounds grave. I have my views, but I don't wish to push them on you, especially at a sensitive time. I think that God cares about you and your situation though. Life is painful. More so for some than for others. I'll pray for you and yours anyway if it's ok with you.

Eric

[Bill Vincent]

Sonnie, did ya ever wonder with some of the troubles youve experianced the last few years if somebody was trying to tell you something??
I have to wonder, If you tried it could things get worse?? ;)

Just thinking out loud here buddy,just thinkin out loud!! :)

I was thinkin the same thing, just not out loud. :)

[LadyGodiva]

Only in the mud box could you go from angels to aliens :uhh:

[oma]

Aliens. Angels. Could be the same thing. Or maybe neither exists. Or maybe they both exist. Who knows? Does is really matter?

[Sonnie Layne]

I have, and never will again let a discussion concerning anyone's religion get in the way of my relations with folks who mean something to me. I will not pulverise anyone's beliefs into something that I can digest.

I found my own rules of humanity and allegiance with the help of many powers, confidances and circumstance. That's all I've got to say about what makes sense to me. What's happened to me in the past few years has nothing to do with any Gods, but with my own decisions and, on occasion medical conditions. I don't blame any person or lord or God. I don't need that crutch.

I rely on friends and people of good intent that are willing to reach out to help others if I find myself in need. I've found folks like that right here. Right now. This very instant. Thanks for your concern, I'm sure your good thoughts will come to me as I need them. My best and most favored thoughts are sent to you. Even if you don't know what a crappie is. :)

BTW, MIL was fine the next morning. My hopes and wishes had nothing to do with it, I'm sure. I believe there is a god of coincidence. I believe as well that there is a god of resolvency, which is watching us right now laughing it's behind off at our folly.

I've known many of you, virtually, for years. I admire you more now than ever. At least you have something you believe in that can possibly sustain sanity in a world that seems to be coming undone. I love you for that, brothers and sisters. This is Sonnie signing out of the religion channel. Seems maybe it should be changed to the christian channel, but it's no big deal in the end. We've all gotta get along. We manage mostly. Good for us!!!!

peace,
S