0% Tolerance Policy in the Schooling System

[Hamilton]

Was watching a TV show this morning and the topic was on 0 tolerance
in our schools. In one case a young girl was searched and found to have
birth control pills in her possesion. She was suspended from school, and
forced to take drug counseling. The birth control pills were given to her
by her doctor to control a hormonal problem she had, i forget the technical
name of the ailment, but the pills werent even for birth control,
but to balance her bodie's hormonal system. She was approached by police officers
on a surprise visit to the school and the canine drug unit stopped because
the dogs smelled something on her. Asked if they could search her she
agreed with no fight. Am i the only one who feels this is totally absurd?
For gods sake we dont even have a 0 tolerance policy for murderers in this
country... 1st degree 2nd degree etc. How can they make kids go through
these punishments without using one ounce of common sense. There were
many other cases portrayed on the show but im not the type to make excessively long posts.
Just thought id open a new can of worms, Being a parent myself
of 3 children, wife working for the shcool district, thought id get this started
to see how other folks feel about this :crazy:

[Sponsored Links]

[stullis]

Thank the Moral minority ;)

The brain dead rule. :D

[jjwq8]

Blame the incumbent.
Cheney's rules apply.
Think of a problem.
If none exists manufacture one.
Now determine how the identified problem should be dealt wealth.
Now determine how to involve your friends and buddies.
Now sit back and watch your accounts grow.

[catamount]

There is nothing wrong with a zero-tolerance policy, as long as common sense is used in its enforcement and it is used to fix real problems. Someone having prescription drugs on their person, which were legally prescribed to them by their doctor, is not a real problem. Someone having someone else's prescription drugs, which they are likely abusing, is. A child bringing a firearm to school is a real problem (although it wasn't when I was a kid and we never had school shootings because every kid I knew was taught proper handling of said firearm). A child bringing a toy gun, a facsimile of a gun, or pointing a finger and saying "bang" is not a real problem (although it is behavior that should be adressed, just not by suspension or expulsion). If a child is found to be in violation of a school policy, but is not doing anything illegal or causing harm to self or others, should they be removed from school just because it is written in the policy? Of course not.
I believe there SHOULD be zero tolerance for criminal activity by students, including sale/use of controlled substances, assaults, sexual misconduct, etc. I also believe there should be zero tolerance of the lewd, obscene and disrespectful behavior found in just about every public high school in this country. Much of the behavior commonplace in schools today, would have earned the kid some rough handling - by a teacher, in the first hour of the first day of the school year (and then again by his parents) - "back in the day". Can't do that anymore. Teachers used to get respect for that. Now they get lawsuits. We, as a society, are raising a generation of kids that are behaving very badly, with little or no consequence to themselves, and these policies are just a way for schools to pretend they are doing something about it. Don't blame the government, or the schools - blame the lazy, misguided, absentee parents that started this mess - if you can find them.

[jgleason]

blame the lazy, misguided, absentee parents that started this mess

Couldn't agree more catamount! Too many folks apparently don't believe in personal responsibility anymore.

[Davestone]

I have four kids in the schools, and one of the gets a (referral) or a phone call on a weekly basis.The last (incident) was my daughter giving her friend a hug on the way to the bus!It's not so much the policy, as the people enforcing it.My daughter was also involved in two fights...hit by boys...it got about as much attention!Her 6-4"brother took her to school the week after.I was afraid i would lose it if i saw them,in fact one was a cousin of Edgeron James.

[jd77]

Blame the incumbent.
Cheney's rules apply.
Think of a problem.
If none exists manufacture one.
Now determine how the identified problem should be dealt wealth.
Now determine how to involve your friends and buddies.
Now sit back and watch your accounts grow.

:laugh2: What the heck ???

How about blaming gutless administrators that are too afraid of being sued to make reasonable decisions on an individual basis? :uhh:

JD:D

[tileguytodd]

blame the lazy, misguided, absentee parents that started this mess - if you can find them.

In some instances ,I agree with this statement but, then again,lets take a little bit deeper look at this shall we.

Many Children of school age Have Mothers and Fathers who both Have to work.In many Instances this is not optional, it is necessary.Why??
Many companies just will not pay a living wage any longer and once they found out that they could get away with this it became epedemic.So, you no longer have a parent at home and your average company that at 1 time put family first and company second is virtually non existant anymore.
So, how does a young family man make a
1000.00 a month house payment
400.00 a month in carpayments for 2 used vehicles
100.00 a month for insurance
400.00 a month for food
200.00 a month for clothing and school related items
150.00 a month for Property taxes
250.00 a month for utilities(water sewer,phone,electric,heat and air etc)
150.00 a month for fuel and vehicle maintenance
80.00 a month in household maintenance cleaning supplies fix ups etc
And so far nobody has gotten sick, whew!!!!!

Poor guy has a fair job making 30,000.00 gross per year (but being middle management and salaried is required to work 55 hours minimum)and see's about 23,500.00 of that or about 2000.00 per month with 2,730.00 in basic bills
Fortunatly,somebody out there is willing to hire the Wife(WalMart,Home Depot etc) but they of course require some nights and weekends and they are willing to pay you about 250.00 a week.(not much but hey i take home 750.00 a month and we can go to the movies (matinee of course) 1 x per month with the extra money and stick 5 bucks in savings!!!
Now, these folks have it good compared to some.Others are
Driving without insurance because they can't afford it
Living in inadequate housing and throwing money away on rent.
taking the bus everywhere because a car,yea right how!!!

Those of us who have reached a comfortable position in life soon forget the struggles that young families have to contend with and the problems are getting worse,not better.
We work Sundays instead of taking our kids to Church because we have to.
When we have free time we are working on the car or house because we cant afford hiring it done.
Shall i continue???

Now, go ahead,blame it all on the parents,I dare you!!!

[oma]

It is difficult for young families, as it was when I was young, and it is the parents who are primarily to blame when their children misbehave. Both parents working for a living does not excuse them from their responsibility to their children. If a husband and wife have to work two different shifts in order to have consistent guidance for their children, they can make that sacrifice. Rearing children is one the the most important things we do as human beings, but so many people just leave the kids to raise themselves. When I was a child, I would never have acted up in school, because I knew that if I got sent to the principal's office for misbehavior, my mother would tan my hide when I got home.

[bbcamp]

Todd, I respectfully disagree. I was raised by 2 wage earners. I can assure you that if I ever misbehaved at school, my punishment at home made anything the school could to me pale to insignificance. In my neighborhood, we had 1 and 2 wage earner families. The kids who got into trouble at school or elsewhere came from both. The only significant difference was the level of parental involvement and the limits imposed on the kids. Those kids whose parents knew where they were and who they were with stayed out of trouble.

My stepson, Matthew, was 7 when we met. He was already a good kid, but like all kids, he tried to push the limits. One day, after weeks of repeated and ignored calls to dinner by his mother, I intervened. I called him one time, and made sure he heard me. After counting to ten and him still staring at the TV, I picked him up, stood him on his feet facing the dining room, then gave him a swat on the butt. It got his attention, and we never had to call him more than once from then on.

We live in a fairly small town, with lots of friends and family around. Matthew knew that if he got into trouble away from home, we'd find out about it. He thought his mother knew every single person in town (almost true!), so he didn't have a chance.

When he started going out, we set a curfew after discussing his plans: where he was going, who he would be with, and when he would be back. If we felt he was going somewhere he shouldn't, we told him so, and he didn't go (as far as we know :D). When he started wanting to stay out past 11:30, we asked why: "Just want to hang with my friends.." That wasn't good enough, and besides, there's nothing but trouble out there after midnite, especially for teen-aged boys. I also made a point to tell him and his mother that if he were to be picked up by the police, he'd get to spend the night in jail, we'd pick him up in the morning. Never had to.

I'm just saying that parental involvement is possible, even if both parents work. Hell, it's possible even if there is only one parent. If the parents would set and enforce limits on their kids, the schools wouldn't have to.

My opinion, worth price charged. :shades:

[TracyD]

Wow, this is one thread that was definitely worth reading- a lot of great points.

I agree with tileguytodd and take it a step further by going past the companies and pointing out that the companies could pay more if they made more (in some cases they could pay more anyway) and while avoiding pointing out the obvious, it comes down to "buy American". (Quit the freakin outsourcing, and no we should NOT let illegal immigrants work legally for peanuts! Sheesh.)

Also, when you're starting out, you cannot neccessarily have everything your parents have. They worked hard to get the things they're acquired, in these days one tv is not enough, we must have 5. And the Kitchenaid blender it took mom 15 years of marriage and cooking to get, is picked up on Tuesday with a credit card because it's "on sale".

At the same time, a single wage earning family "can" make it. I grew up with divorced parents who didn't even care to speak to each other unless they absolutely HAD to. My mom, of course, being a single mom, had to work to keep our family housed and fed, but it was still understood- if we screw up not only do we get in trouble with mom, but dad would be on our case too. There were times we had the phone shut off, or had to go without some thing we thoguht we "needed"... but we made it, and the thought of doing anything to make it harder on mom was an influence on our behavior. As difficult as it is to keep food on the table- it's still a big priority to keep track of your kids.

catamount makes a lot of good points too... and since they're focusing on drugs in schools so much, would it kill them to add a firearms safety class? Or at least offer it for a price and promote the good it would do? Educated people have a great respect for guns. People who learn firearms safety from "Grand Theft Auto" and other video games... well they have a lot different views of what's ok.

I work a lot to get my kids to act respectfully. I can't tell you how disappointed I was in my own (step)daughter last night- a minor thing really, but based on simple respect.... I can assure you it was addressed, though.

My kids go nowhere without me knowing where and why. And while I like to get them involved in some things, I don't believe in scheduling their lives full of activities either. They need time to be kids too. Free time with friends is great, but that doesn't mean letting them run around an entire city unattended. We also need to pay attention to whose houses we're sending these kids over to. It's no longer good enough to know that they'll be at Janie's house. Janie's parents may be meth-heads. Now I feel like I need to know who the parents are, have been to their house, talked to them several times... and still I set limits for my daughters.

Growing up, I had a TON of respect for my Dad. I still do. Disappointing him was the LAST thing I wanted to do. I can't even explain why... I never received any sort of physical spankings or anything, but I still had a genuine fear of disappointing him. But now if "Dad" tells the kids they better get it done NOW- OR ELSE- the kids turn and reply "Or else what? You can't hurt me! I'll call child protection!" It's not that I'm for abusing our kids, but come on. People get this stuff heard by pointing out the radical cases and then guilting the rest of us into changing our own actions.

[catamount]

Now, go ahead,blame it all on the parents,I dare you!!!

Todd - I appreciate your passion. Sounds like you've been there/done that. Me too. However, we're not talking about the same group of parents. Two parents working full-time outside the house doesn't preclude them from raising responsible kids. What I mean by "absentee" is parents that have "checked out" of raising their kids, no matter what their socio-economic situation. Parents can be away from home working, and still CARE about what their children are doing, and how they represent themselves and their families to the community. Parents that don't care; that let their kids get their guidance from television and video games; that spend their kids' lunch money at the bar or local dealer; that choose not to discipline their kids but rush to defend them when they've done wrong - this is the group I'm talking about, regardless of how much money they make or what neighborhod they live in.

[Hamilton]

In the case i mentioned in post #1 you will agree this has nothing to
do with the parents AT ALL. The parents of this child took the responsibility
to get the child to the doctor. She was an honor role student. She was suspended from school and had time taken away from her education and
forced to take DRUG COUNCELING. What part of her doctors order was she
abusing? Even if she made the mistake of not following the school policy
to give all and any medications to the school nurse, should the punishment
be so severe? Wouldnt a simple phone call into the doctors office suffice.
This is my frustration with this topic. 0% tolerance means just that. School
administrators will not budge period. How is making a girl take drug counseling
for a problem that doesnt exist making the schools any safer? Some of the other cases involved a situation in the midwest where entire towns shut
down for hunting season. Now this you can blame the father for... but not
the child. A father took his sons truck hunting and left his rifle behind the seat. The teen drove his truck to school the next day and was randomly
searched. He didnt know his dads rifle was in the pickup, testified to by his
father. The boy was arrested and faced charges as well as expelled from
school permanently. End of story. Where is the intelligence we so blindly
send our children off to learn from.....0% tolerance was enstated to protect
our children but what happens if there is one little mistake and its your
childs future that gets ruined? Noone is perfect... shouldnt the schools
at least have a trial of sorts. This is america, innocent until proven guilty...
not in the schools.

[stefan]

zero tolerance is bull
my oldest son is 22, four years ago in high school he got sent home for 10 days, because he had a boxcutter in his pocket, witch he needed at work the day before and he forgot to take the cutter out of his pants. all the school hade to do is, take the cutter away, call the company he was working for, but the school made a big deal out of it, because he is a easy target (white, blonde hair blue eyes). his black friend brings a 10 inch knife to school every day and believe it, the dean knows it and does nothing about it. I call that no ball's policy. has nothing to do with tolerance, just no ball's.

[catamount]

In the case i mentioned in post #1 you will agree this has nothing to do with the parents AT ALL.

Not HER parents, no. Your point that every situation should be handled on a case by case basis is well taken. I couldn't agree more. Are adminstrators gutless in standing up against their own policies? - absolutely. But I believe these policies exist because this is how our schools have decided to deal with a lot of kids (and parents) behaving very badly. If there was an overwhelming majority of parents raising their kids to be polite, respectful, positive members of the community, you wouldn't have this behavior, and schools wouldn't have these policies. Now, I'm going to excuse myself from trying to solve society's problems, and go spend some time with my kids. :) :) :)

-Rob

[Hamilton]

Im not out to solve any problems and ill quote myself.

thought id get this started
to see how other folks feel about this :crazy:

Just wanted to find out if im a minority in the way i feel about the subject.

[jjwq8]

Sooner or later someone in one of your houses of misrepresentation will propose and have passed a bill mandating the installation of walk through metal detectors at the front and back door of every household in the state/country with children of school age.

You think I'm joking?

[tileguytodd]

Rob, I can live with that ;)

[Kirk Downey]

I teach high school in East Los Angeles. Our school, a couple of years ago, was the third largest school in the United States. I haven't heard that figure in a couple of years - maybe some other school has passed us. We are surrounded by gangs and drugs and urban decay. We had, in the past, a very tough campus with dangerous kids coming from dangerous parts of the city and society. Things are different now. The students choose the society they want to create on campus. Teachers and administrators can only encourage peaceable and lawful behavior. Students choose their world - as we choose ours with our behavior and our personal standards. Blaming parents for disrespectful and harsh children is only scapegoating. Punk kids are punks even if thhey have good parents. Any parent who drew the wrong card knows that.

We have major problems at our school like every school in any city.*(see below) But now our students as a general rule choose to live without fights, without problems and with hope. It AINT perfect but our kids like to be happy and when we ask for information, our students give it up to us because they know we are there to protect them. Zero Tolerance Policies are designed to force the weak and foolish to have some spine and to call attention to problems. Of course, in any bureaucracy, fools get promoted and enforce Zero Policies with Zero intelligence.

We had a kid threaten to shoot up a class and a teacher. He threw my name into the death list presumably since I am a crisp disciplinarian. The kid was transfered, pursuant to Zero Tolerance for Threats, to a quasi clinical school environment for a year and returned to us in a year. He never got around to passing classes but he was much more pleasant and far less withdrawn.

Zero Tolerance should mean zero latitude to ignore a problem behavior. As for lunkhead parent that hunts deer on Sunday and negligently allows his child to take that deadly weapon into a sanctuary of learning and vulnerability. Appropriate police investigation should clear up the mistake. THe child should be removed from the school while the investigation continues. The child should then return to the school campus long enough to be transferred to another school. Family and child should face consequences for foolish behavior. Guns are dangerous and Columbine happened in a nice community. Wake up - read history.

* I travelled last year through Europe. WHen I was walking around Paris I saw a High School letting out and a bunch of kids were hanging out on the sidewalk like they do in the US. Cool - so I snapped a photo to show my students. One tough guy stepped away from the crowd and shouted at me about not having permission to take a photo. Big mouthed teens bluster in every culture.

[jjwq8]

And the sins of the father shall be visited upon the son?

The boy in the rifle incident is accountable for failing to exercise due diligence. But expulsion?

Terminal punishment of guilt without proof of intent is shameful. Do peace officers check their weapons at the door of a school? If no then they are as equally guilty of placing the academic body at risk as the teen who forgot to check out his truck. By the way was there probable cause for the truck search?

[Eric Philson]

I used to go to school with my 12 guage and my .308 both in my back window rack. Hunted after school. Before I got my drivers license, I even took my shotgun and ammo on the bus a couple of times, carried it down the school hallway, put it in my locker, and going home w/ a friend after school to hunt, took it on another school bus to his house. I wasn't the only one either, we kids used to check out each others bunny blasters in the hallways. No teacher, kid, parent ever thought anything of it to my knowledge. No one would have dreamed of using one on each other in a fight, why bring a gun to a perfectly good fistfight? My, how quickly things have changed. sad. sad.

Eric

[r8ingbull]

So, how does a young family man make a
1000.00 a month house payment
400.00 a month in carpayments for 2 used vehicles
100.00 a month for insurance
400.00 a month for food
200.00 a month for clothing and school related items
150.00 a month for Property taxes
250.00 a month for utilities(water sewer,phone,electric,heat and air etc)
150.00 a month for fuel and vehicle maintenance
80.00 a month in household maintenance cleaning supplies fix ups etc
And so far nobody has gotten sick, whew!!!!!


A young family man (like myself) makes do by hard work and good economic sense. Most people have a very consumerist view on things. People tend to think they need all those things you mentioned. But let's be more reasonable with the amounts:
$560 House Payment (includes taxes)
$0 car payments (owning one car paid for with cash)
$50 car insurance
$150 gas and maintenance
$300 food
$200 clothes and school (no kids in school yet, so i used Todds figures)
$125 utilities (since we set the thermostat down 5 degrees, and no air)
$100 home maintenance

Now the guy in your example has $550 left over for savings each month.

By teaching kids that we have to work extra to buy things we don't need, we send the impression that things are more important than family. I have friends with kids that are so spoiled they would throw a fit if they ran out of pop-tarts or if they can't have the new shoes or whatever. And these are little kids 3,4,5 years old. It is just plain crazy.

I took awhile to realize it after I moved out of my parents house, but they had to go through the same things when I was younger. Things must have been tight growing up, but they sure made it work and by the time I moved out they had built a nice house and had the two cars and nice things.

Now I'm one of those $30,000 a year people and trying to do what they did, and probably what alot of you did. I won't blame any problems with my kids on my income status.

As far as the kids bringing things to school, the school has a policy that the kids know about. They know not to bring the birth control, they know not to bring the knives, they know not to bring the guns, but they do it anyway.

The real problem isn't a 0% tolerance policy. The real problem is that 60% is acceptable. How would you react if you told your helper not to mix the mortar with hot water and he just kept doing it again and again? Who here can get away with anything less than 100% perfect? Think about all the times when you tell someone to do something and what you would do if they didn't do it right. "No drugs allowed on school campus" is VERY simple. It is even more simple than "hey set those boxes of tile down gently!".

When I was in high school I could have passed with a 60% grade. That means for every ten tiles set 4 of them would be wrong. Does that sound acceptable to anyone here?

[Hamilton]

Thank you for chiming in on this you have made some very valid points.
Im in southern cali but not the so cal you work in. 0% tolerance is definitely
an improvement in the reality you describe. Its my fear of not being able
to be a PERFECT parent and letting my child ruin his future. Kids have
friends and those friends have more. Things get passed around and stirred
up. What is in place to stop my child from being expelled from school
if his vehicle is randomly searched at school and one of his freinds decided
to hide a "Roach" between the seats and he doesnt know it is even there.
Tell me to raise my kids better ok :crazy: Make them choose their
friends better ok, be a better parent. I dont think so. The problem is in
the system not the policie. To say we dont tolerate anything unappropriate
is fine but to never give a kid a chance to explain is ludicrous.

[Raymond S]

Look Jack, they HAVE to crack down on the little girl with the prescribed meds. That way they can say they are really making progress on the problems without confronting the really scary guys like Kirk talked about.

[oma]

It's not guns that are dangerous, it's idiotic and a-hole humans. A gun can't fire itself.

When my husband was in high school, they took their rifles (I think it was rifles, as opposed to shotguns) to school because they had a shooting club that practiced after school was out. If guns themselves were dangerous, there would be death and destruction at gun shows.

[Eric Philson]

With the metal detector thing, the meds in school thing, it's no different than other arenas like the medical profession, attorneys, even my arena, construction. Liability makes people do things that they wouldn't think to do otherwise. Hey Jack, I just read yesterday your response to someone about taping durock joints or something like that. Taping them may well be the best thing, but consider your response. The manufacturer recomends........ do what is recommended because............. it's all about responsibility/liability, be safe not sorry. I'm not being critical at all. Just pointing out that we're all affected by this kinda stuff. I do it too.

Eric

[Hamilton]

:topicoff: Its best to follow the approved installation and have the support
of the company if any failure comes to the surface in the future, is what i was
driving at. If you skip steps because you believe they are not needed and
a company rep/investigator comes to check your installation method and you
havent followed the prescribed installation method you will have no recourse.
period.

[Eric Philson]

No, No. Please. That 's not what I'm talking about really. Maybe that wasn't the best example to use. What you said about taping was totally correct. But think of a school official in the same type of circumstance. He's saying to himself " it's best to follow prescribed procedure and have the support of the superintendant, school board, school districts attorney, etc.' Just like you just said, correctly, in defense of your post. All I'm saying is he's doing a similar thing to protect himself in his arena that you do with tile or that I do with stonework. I'm not even saying that is a good thing, just recognizing the similarity.

Eric

[Hamilton]

I give up :bang:

[catamount]

I give up :bang:

Aw, c'mon Jack. It WAS your can of worms, after all. What'd you think you were gonna get - a unified response? How boring would that be? :) :) :)
----
Rob

[Hamilton]

I know i know.... :uhh:

[Kirk Downey]

OK, lets get this thread hopping again.

Zero Policies are annoyingly intrusive on those who work on the campuses and those who attend school. The nurse can't keep and distribute aspirin on the campus. So if I get a big ol' headache and haven't brought my own stash, I've gotta find a woman on campus who keeps mydol or other painkillers in their purse. You know why.

Also if a student has a perscription that asks them to take a dosage during school hours, they are supposed to present their script and the drug to the school nurse. They are then supposed to visit the nurse for their dose.

Talk about a hassle. Eh?

There are legitimate reasons for the procedures, but they treat everyone like an irresponsible child - even the faculty.

Kirk out

[Eric Philson]

Just ask for some ritalin, they seem to hand that out freely.

[Jason_Butler]

When I was in high school ( no comments from the peanut gallery :) ), the notion of a "drug dog" was the latest answer to drug problem. Of course all of the students ( even the innocent ones) were on pins and needles when the dog walked the halls and the parking lot.

I grew up on a farm and often cut firewood, hauled hay, or fed the cows before school started at 8 am. I wasn't always smelling of Irish Spring when the bell sounded if you know what I mean. The dog keyed in on me pretty good. The police searched me and found nothing. That wasn't the end though. They went to my locker where my jacket was hanging. For obvious reasons my jacket smelled as bad as I did. The dog keyed in on that as well. Still..they found nothing. The came the parking lot patrol. They figured they would search my truck as well. The dog went crazy on a piece of aluminum foil. They insisted it was drug material and took it for evidence. I was an honor student and got a nice 3 day suspension out of the deal.

They sent the foil in to the lab and guess what...It tested POSITIVE for Gasoline !!! I had used it to keep an oversized cap on an old gas can when I was cutting firewood.

They also ruined a paint job on nice Mustang b/c the dog didn't like the smell of Skoal in one guys car..

There are a lot of policies that require some " common sense". Problem is...common sense isn't that "common"

Jason

[Hamilton]

Thank you jason. this is what i wanted to focus on. not the real need for
0% tolerance but the way it is dealt with by the administration. The whole
system needs to be looked at and ammended. Maybe 1% tolerance would
be a better situation than 0% :)

[Eric Philson]

Well, sure . But we've got to remember that educators(but not all of them) over all go straight from the halls of higher learning to the halls of 0 tolerance. they get to bypass the real world on the way. When you've spent your education and career in a world void of practical application, what can you expect. They base their judgements on pure perception rather than experiential practicality. Thus, the chasm between acadamia and us "lessers"

Eric

[jjwq8]

way to go Eric
first time ever had me leaping for the dictionary and damned if Experiential ain't a real American word. Ptooee:D. I would have preferred Empirical :D:D

[Hamilton]

Here ya go jeremy.....

Definitions of Experiential:

Refferring to ways of learning language through experiencing it in use rather than through focusing conscious attention on language items. Reading a novel, listening to a song and taking part in a project are experiential ways of learning a language

i love the "lessers" at the end eric :)

[r8ingbull]

Well, sure . But we've got to remember that educators(but not all of them) over all go straight from the halls of higher learning to the halls of 0 tolerance. they get to bypass the real world on the way. When you've spent your education and career in a world void of practical application, what can you expect. They base their judgements on pure perception rather than experiential practicality. Thus, the chasm between acadamia and us "lessers"

Eric

Very true. I have a friend in college studying music to become a high school music teacher. I once asked her what good it was to teach kids music (I have no problems with music I was just asking) her response was "that's simple so they can teach other people how to make music".

I can honestly say my favorite teachers and proffesors were the ones that started a carrer in a field and then decided to teach instead. They actually had some idea what was going on.

[Eric Philson]

Yep,

So, there is a type of authority that is bought and paid for, and then there is true authority which comes from learning, living, failing, suceeding, bleeding and living to tell the tale, like John B. et. al. Who would be drawn to this very sight but for the recognition of true authority that is freely being shared? Here is what I failed at saying to Jack earlier; you can recognize true authority by seeing the type of judgement that is used and the fruit that it bears.............and the type of crowd that it attracts.


Eric

PS. In this case, John I still think you're an authority in spite of the type of crowd that you've attracted. HAAAW HAAAAW HAAAAAAAAAAAAW!!!!!!

[Kirk Downey]

Recent research has shown that mathematical thinking occurs in the same regions of the brain as does music. When one enhances the brain function in the musical area one is enhancing their mathmatical thinking potential.

We should remember that drawing in perspective helped to create the Renaissance. Some argue that perspective drawing was the beginning of modern science. Never forget that the arts are an integral part of the develpooment of civilization. I would argue that civilization is the product of various arts. The function of schools in society is to expand and re-create civilization for each new generation. Tile and the ceramic arts are ancient arts that employ thousands today and ad great value to the architecture and infrastructure of our built civilization. Art is IMPORTANT - it is not wasteful fluff that inflates the cost of government and education.

One of the things that riles the right is the percieved "decay" of our civilization. We need more music than pop singing. We need more litrature than reality TV. We need more sculpture than marketing displays. We need more theater than movies, more painting than skin magazines . . .

Kirk out

[Hamilton]

Take a look at this American Bar Association Zero Tolerance Report (http://www.abanet.org/crimjust/juvjus/zerotolreport.html) I found it interesting to read.

[jjwq8]

Having just read the linked report I am mondo grateful that I was schooled when and where I was. Otherwise I would now be serving life without possibility of parole for all the stunts I pulled at school. In fact the school itself would need to be a jail coz as far as I can remember we were all at it, even the winner of the Queens gold medal for exceptional scholastic achievement (a certified genius) who went on to complete his first doctorate after three years of university.

[Eric Philson]

I'm afraid to read it. I homeschool my kids, or my wife does. Some days she has zero tolerance too. :)

Kirk,

please don't misunderstand me. I think the arts are absloutely invaluable to our society and culture. They affect every fabric of our being. I completely agree with your entire post, except one part. The function of schools is NOT to expand and re-create civilization for each new generation. Civilization is already created by the prime creator, our job is to thrive in it, affect it, and be constructive in it. And, that is the function of inspired individuals, not schools. The function of schools is to equip men an women with the knowledge and tools they need to go out and change their world. They're job is not to orchestrate that change. That is their natural limitation, which higher academia fails to recognize or subscribe to. They seem to want to be our all in all. I attended a liberal arts school myself and am glad I did. I must say, though that of those from whom I learned at that time, I did not learn in what way to apply my understanding to life, that was for me to figure out. They did, however give me some great raw material, and taught me how to make learning a lifetime endevour. More recently, though, the academic arena seems to want to pre-program our life's agenda. That's unnatural and academia is unqualified for the task. They're not God.

Regards,

Eric

[Eric Philson]

Jack,

well, I read it. It confirmed my fears. It also made my earlier point. An expanded disciplinary policy, which could have done some good, has been short circuited by those who have big diplomas but stunted judgement.

Eric

[Kirk Downey]

Eric,

I agree wholeheartedly with your post as well.

Clarification - Schooling is a process that does the re-creation. Civilization is not a collection of buildings, it is a group of humans that decide to abide by a colletion ideas and beliefs. (Consent of the governed) People become teachers because they want to touch the future. That is an important nuance. Children create their own civilization. That was the point that I hoped to make in my statement. And the you state as much.

The current group of jackals in the executive suites of our society are attempting to re-engineer our civilization to shift the wealth of the nation up the socio-economic ladder, to evaporate the mechanisms that built the middle class that sent my father to a universtity. They, the neo-conservatives, have assailed "public education" as wasteful and a singular failure. The truth is that Thomas Jefferson understood that an uneducated populus can not operate a representative democracy. Therefore "public education" was clearly a constitutional requirement. Also, the fact is that "public education" as a system is not doing any, or much more poorly than it has in the past. What has happened is that the "expectations" of the economy have changed and the parents with more money and more education are pulling their children out of the system.

In the 1960's my parents gave me and my brothers the option to go to private schools. But segregation was being dismantled, and we wanted to be part of the change in the civilization. We wanted to and have changed the rules that we consent to. Neo-conservatives smell blood in the water and they are after Jefferson's vision. They are radicals and they want to dismantle the society that gave me a chance to own a home and to have a decent career accorded by my father's university education. Class warfare, you bet it is. And those jackals are after my kids' futures as well as yours, unless your wife teaches at Exeter or Choate.

Remember Somalia does not school its children any longer. If they get any learning, it gotta be at home.

Kirk out

[Eric Philson]

Kirk,

First-off, Jefferson did not envision a representative democracy, nor was our nation formed as such. That was closer to Hamilton's vision, which is the view that won out with the birth of the Republican party and the result of the civil war, and became the monster you despise now. Jefferson established a constitutional Republic, which is different, but I won't go there right now. Jefferson was mortified to see this coming on within his lifetime. Men had died in the revolution to abolish forever this very thing.

Second, the constitution was set forth to establish perameters/ strict limitations on GOVERNMENT. It was never meant to establish any "public" services or systems. In fact, quite to the contrary.

Third, the establishment of a public school system did NOT advance the cause of higher learning that Jefferson so devoutly embraced. The level of education and general learning was much higher for those who preceeded the public education system. Many very fine schools existed AND higher learning was available to the masses to a greater degree. The notion that the public school system saved American education and made education available to the masses is propoganda and revisionist dupe. The establishment of such was a governmental power grab of the sort that we have not seen within our time. It is an enlightening study to read about the motivations behind its' establishment.

Fourth, the Democratic party also has metemorphosed over time into the virtual twin of the Republican. Although they embrace different values and different groups' agendas, they operate under the same auspices, ie., a representative democracy which gives the majority the oportunity to enhance government power. That has Jefferson rolling in his grave.

When Ben Franklin was asked what form of government they had been given, he replied " A republic, if you can keep it". My friend, we did not keep it long.

I think your intentions are good, and you're on the right track, but there are lingering misconceptions about what our country was meant to be and what it has become. I think we're on the same side, though.

Best Regards,

Eric

[Davestone]

Yeah, but Jefferson didn't even want a militia,too costly,or a navy,too much like big government control,he wasn't as great a visionary as some would believe, in my o. :)

[Eric Philson]

Not true. He just didn't want the military under centralized control. That way armed forces could have been all they are now, with one exception. They would not have been available under executive order as they are now(which is still unconstitutional), but only with the agreement of congress. It was developed, with the 'just war' philosophy in mind, as a defensive mechanism that couldn't be utilized by a centralized power for the purposes of conquest....like it is sometimes used now. In addition, under his frame work, an incredible standing army coud be mustered quickly at any time by decentralizing it, which eliminates beurocratic bottlenecking. Remember, we fought and won four major wars, one against the greatest military on the planet, britain. under that system. That was pre-constitution, but same military structure. IMHO, he was an incredible visionary.


Eric

[Davestone]

That would be ridiculous now, and yes he wanted to disban the regular militia,much like the democrats propose now,but with disarming the public, it wouldn't work very well...ya gotta have target practice..and we don't have the hunters we once had..sorry Musky Mike, And those wars were fought here, who wants to do that?Give me a mobile ready militia to take the fight to them.Don't forget he was against doing anything to the muslims that were requiring a tariff to sail their waters and confiscating our ships and cargo till Hamilton got support to get a navy over there to kick butt.Yeah i read Time, and Newsweek:D

[Davestone]

Wait a minute,how did 0% tolerance in our schools wind up at this point? :D

[Hamilton]

Eric were youre kids always home schooled and have you or your wife
ever worked in public education?

[Eric Philson]

He only wanted to disband the militia as a centralized force, certainly not in its entirety read the constitution, it's in there. The U.S. private citizenry now posseses 60% of the WORLDS small arms. They'd have more if the gov't. would allow it. The idea that it couldn't happen doesn't wash. I ain't talkin' about hunters, buddy :) . We could certainly take the fight to them in the same fashion we do now. pre-emptive strikes, in defense, are included in the just war doctrine. The seas were/are(for now) international territory, not U.S. territory. The islamic pirates did not discriminate, they pillaged whomever they could. Because they did not have the purpose of bringing down our country, but only of profit, it was not an issue of national sovereignty. That did not, though, nullify the possibility of them being dealt with militarily by cooperating states. Hamilton just wanted an excuse to empower a federal government. Jefferson wasn't against doing anything to the muslims he was just against forming a centralized military to do it.

Time and Newsweek, propagandistic rags.

No hard feelings though.

Eric

PS. Yes, we did get a bit :topicoff: We can go back to the original topic if everyone agrees.

[Eric Philson]

Jack,

Nope and nope.

I think I know where this is going, but that's cool. My oldest two kids, 10 and 13, are more academically astute than most high school grads I know. So fire away w/ questions or comments.

Eric

[Davestone]

No, we're on a roll now. Surely you've heard of the national guard and army reserve.You actually believe you could get a militia sobered up, and in shape,and equipped in time to stop any sort of serious organized attack?You're obviously not ex-military.Russia would have taken us faster than Germany took Poland.Wasn't Jefferson also squeemish about the governments involvement with the banking,and commerce?I disagree about his wanting to do anything to anyone, i believe he was a pacifist.That attitude wouldn't protect us in this atmosphere. :)

[Hamilton]

My intention is not to discredit you or your opinions, im just trying to find
out where you are coming from. I like to understand who i am speaking
to and why opinions are formulated. You are obviously an educated person
judging by your posts.

[Eric Philson]

Dave,

You're right, state militias aren't what they could be. Didn't have to be that way, though. A result of centralized military.

Banking and commerse? Not sure about commerse, but definately against gov't controlled banking, not squeemish, anti. Not sure about standardised monetary denominations either.

Do you have direct evidence of his being a pacifist? I'd be interested in reading about it if there is.

[Davestone]

Yes i do...his signature on the Declaration of Independence was unusually small! :D

[Davestone]

Surely, you didn't think this intellectual, collegiate banter could continue, unhumored. I am but a tilesetter, after all! :yeah:

[Eric Philson]

Dave,

Ouch!!! ya got me. :)
Keep looking at the signatures till you find one that reads 'Benjamin Rush'...that's great grandaddy. :)

Jack,

Sorry, I'm accustomed to defending myself on that issue. I did bring it up myself, though. I'd be happy to talk about it with you. Homeschooling is one of the few things in life I feel that I got right.

Eric

[Davestone]

:D

[Hamilton]

When the cost appraisal of the impact of zero tolerance includes impacts on an entire community, the financial benefits of suspension and expulsion may completely disappear. If the students who are suspended or expelled do not re-enter school right away, they are likely to fall further behind academically and are at increased risk of falling into criminal activity in the community. Their likelihood of being incarcerated increases accordingly. The high costs of incarceration are not generally weighed against the relatively lower costs of alternative education, as would be recommended in a "holistic" cost appraisal. Nor are the potentially negative socialization experiences faced by alternative education students typically weighed against the more severely negative socialization experiences faced by incarcerated youth. High recidivism in incarcerated settings urges a long-term view of the costs of initial incarcerations. It may be that keeping a child in school, even in alternative education, may reduce their likelihood of entering a career as a criminal.7

Im on the fence on this topic, after speaking in depth with my wife
who works in the school district, and having 3 children of my own
in public school. Maybe i can get her on here and give her opinion.
ive had her read alot of the discussion here and she has her own take
and not necessarily mine. While zero tolerance is definately doing some
good it is also effecting normal children and subjecting them to criminal
punishments.

[Eric Philson]

Jack,

We can do analysis of that type on a miriad of perspectives and angles and IMO not really get anywhere. It becomes circular after a while. I think it really comes down to overlegislating education (or legislating it at all). Regardless of where this zero-tolerance brainchild originated, it was refined by beurocrats and implemented by plebes on some level. Practicallity goes out the window when gov't run agencies see the new program budget created and fight for a slice of it. It's that simple, and it's that complex. Ultimately the only people in the system who care about how this affects the kids are a few teachers, like your wife, who have no control over how it's implemented, and maybe some lower level administration. If you can find a beurocrat that really cares, that person is submerged by a tsunami of wolves in a dash for the money. Kids and their lives have become a mere polop on the systems' side. It's not about them anymore(or maybe it never was). Good people like you and your wife who fight for change unfortunately wind up banging their :bang: That's my view, looking at the forest, cause I'm not among the trees. Not trying to be discouraging either. Keep fighting the good fight.

Eric

[oma]

I have a very wide array of friends from the very religious in a couple of different religious sects to completely hedonistic and earth based religion members. Of my friends, several home-schooled their children. Of the hone-schooled children, the great majority are far ahead of their same-age public school peers, and are usually college grads by age twenty. The public schools in and of themselves are not the real problem, but they must work and exist within the framework of the majority of the public sector, whose behavior and beliefs have changed dramatically over the past fifty years. Thank goodness I have finished with child-rearing, but if I were still young and having children, I would first choose private schools, second choose home-schooling, and the last resort would be the public school system. I have a grandchild that I hope will be in a private school setting. Fortunately, the cost of private schools has become affordable for many more people these days, probably due, in part, to the demand. Teaching has, in several ways, become very similar to the nursing profession. Dealing with the general public has become so difficult that many good teachers are leaving the profession, leaving those who stay in it overworked and stressed from a shortage. I think most of those who go into the teaching and other service professions do so because of a desire the help and contribute to the betterment of society. What they find when they get there is more that they bargained for.

[Eric Philson]

We considered private school. My wife sat on the curriculum committee for an upstart charter school that now is huge and doing a great job, because they have autonomy. Autonomy and an open market are the keys, if the public school system is ever gonna catch up.

Eric

[oma]

I think you are right. Autonomy is one of the key reasons for success of private schools. In the private schools I am familiar with, children are expected to be respectful, behave themselves, and work. Our current generation of young parents generally doesn't understand the value of developing a disclipined attitude in children to help them succeed in life. Disclipine is essential once you are an adult if you want to live a productive and independent existence. Self-disclipine as an adult is an extension of the disclipine imposed on you as a child, in part. I'm not talking about child abuse, but about learning to manage yourself as a tool toward success. Our public school system is so crippled by social welfare restrictions nowadays that children no longer develop basic skills as simple as decent manners. How can we expect them to achieve scholastically?

[hobiegirl]

zero tolerance/ should be considered in different age groups. I work for elementry age children. I also work in special education so this topic is very close to my heart. i work with kids who have all kinds of "learning problems" not to mention kids who have problems at home. it starts early in life with some kids. i have a boy in my class whos mom committed suicide when he was five. the awful thing is he witnessed it. poor little boy. he is violent at times to other students. he gets suspended time and again. this is a little boy 10 years old who is in the school system without any counsiling ( because thats not in the school budget "counsiling"). he told me once that his dad plays a game with him called " i hate you". what is a little boy to do? i hope everyday to see his little face walk through our classroom door, to know he is ok. administration does nothing! this is just one kid who could very well grow up to be in prison... this is one case so many more ive seen.so what i am trying to say is when, where and why can we call zero tolerance or why zero tolerance if we dont know the story sometimes. its sad that the shadows and nightmares of some childern will never be helped for them they have no way out! unless ,other caring people open thier eyes and step forward.

[Hamilton]

Sounds like a True christian heart there.....but what does that have to
do with the BUSINESS of children. Policies do not recognize individuals
as humans with spirit and life in them.

[Eric Philson]

Janelle,

Thanks for reminding us of the very human side of this. Just reinforces the need fo autonomy in my mind though.

Eric

[Jason_Butler]

The problem with all of the school disciplinary programs ( IMO) is the ownership. Schools should not be req'd to discipline our kids. That's for the parents to address. We send our kids to school for social interaction and a structured education. If the parents would layeth the smack down on these kids, the school wouldn't have to make these policies.

When I was in grade school in East Texas, the parents were called to the school to do the "dirty work". We also had some heavy handed coaches that could swing a paddle.

I understand that approach is an oversimplification but I have a hard time understanding how the parents of the Columbine assailants didn't know about their kids' behavior.

I always knew that the punishment at home was gonna' be twice as bad as the policies at school.

Jason

[Kirk Downey]

The three main problems with the public schools are: (not in order of importance)

1. The kids and what they think is important. Specifically, they don't think that schools have what they need to be successful in their world. More accurately, they don't know what they need to be successful and their parents can't/won't advise/lead them while high school counselors are given increasing numbers of students making real "advisement" a hens tooth.

2. We have to take all commers. The FOB immigrants with illiterate parents, the children of drug addicted parents, the children of death row inmates, the unidentified learning disabled and those who really don't want to be in class so they endeavour to destroy the educational environment with every fiber of their occasionally formidable intellects. The society is increasingly diverting those children with the highest potential and best behavior modeling out of the general society. We're left with the poor and struggling students who need the most and are asked repeatedly to do more with them while offered less and less resources to address their needs.

3. As the middle class is whittled away by price pressures, teaching becomes increasingly less desirable as a career. It is a "few year's passageway" for poor folks on their way to a better paying job. Those who stay are either foolish, devoted or dimwitted.

Your faithfully devoted fool, toiling tirelessly in a constipated bureaucracy :bang:

Kirk

[Jason_Butler]

Kirk,

I couldn't agree more. Well said.

Jason