Travertine Installation Method? [Archive] - Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

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YouRockDaddy
12-30-2004, 11:29 AM
We are planning on installing about 1000 square feet of travertine (Versailles Pattern (French Pattern), Chiseled edge, with Grout) over Concrete, and was wondering the best installation method.

Most Travertine I have seen installed is 18" square, honed and filled and installed butted together, and it's set with a Sand and Cement (float).

But is that the but install for Versailles Pattern, Chiseled edge, with Grout?

If I can get away with it, I'm trying to avoid having large transitions between the Travertine and Carpet or the Travertine and door thresholds.

http://www.heavyhitter.com/French_Pattern.jpg

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bbcamp
12-30-2004, 12:49 PM
The pattern doesn't necessarily dictate the method of installation. What does matter, though, is the flatness of the slab and whether the slab has any cracks or coatings that have to be addressed. Have you inspected the slab yet?

Also, how much room (height) do you have to work with, and how thick are the tiles?

YouRockDaddy
12-31-2004, 12:25 PM
I'm not sure how flat the slab is, but it is a post tension slab so there are not cracks.

Davy
12-31-2004, 07:34 PM
What Bob said, you should be able to do a thinset job, this will hold the thickness down. The slab will need to be free from paint, texture or anything else. A post tension slab doesn't mean they are crack free. Use a membrane over all slab cracks.

I'm not sure but the chiseled edge might look better with a slightly bigger joint with sanded grout. This would make it easier to install. Others can comment on that. Answer Bob's questions. :)

jdm
12-31-2004, 08:05 PM
Just what is a post tension slab? I know what pre-stressed concrete is but never heard of this one before.

Davy
12-31-2004, 09:46 PM
It's when they run cables thru the slab, 3 to 5 ft apart each direction. There isn't any (or very little) rebar used. The cables are in a plastic sleeve and are extended thru the forms. After a day or two of being poured they tighten up the cables with a machine.

I remember about 10 years ago talking to a concrete man about Post Tension, asked him if it was any good. He said he had seen or heard of a demonstration where they poured a slab, tightened the cables and then they undermined a section of the slab so it didn't have any support under it. Then they took a Cat bulldozer and run it out onto the slab and it didn't break. I think it's a good system but sometimes the cables come loose. :)

jdm
01-01-2005, 03:20 AM
Geez, what'll they think up next?

Thanks, Davy

YouRockDaddy
01-01-2005, 05:20 PM
What Bob said, you should be able to do a thinset job, this will hold the thickness down. The slab will need to be free from paint, texture or anything else. A post tension slab doesn't mean they are crack free. Use a membrane over all slab cracks.

I'm not sure but the chiseled edge might look better with a slightly bigger joint with sanded grout. This would make it easier to install. Others can comment on that. Answer Bob's questions. :)

1. What type of membrane? Also, would you just that metal mesh stuff?
2. I was planning on having it set with grout line and a sanded grout, like the picture above, but maybe not quite as wide of spacing between tiles.

Also, how much room (height) do you have to work with, and how thick are the tiles?:

Do you mean how much do I have between the concrete and say door thresholds? I really have plenty. I was really just wonder of all that sand and cement under butt-jointed traverine is really necessary for the type of travertine I planning on putting down. As far as the stone thickness I really don't know exactly as I have not purchased it yet, but I think it's about 3/8 of an inch thin.

jerrymlr1
01-01-2005, 06:28 PM
You can set the travertine with thinset. I would use white. However with the Versailles pattern the stone size will dictate the grout joint. For instance, you can use any size grout joint with a sqaure tile. But with 4x8 pavers if you lay one horizontally and two vertically below even with the outside edges of the top tile the distance between the two in the center, usually 3/8 - 1/2" is the necessary joint size on that pattern. Same with the Versailles pattern. If the tiles come 24x16, 16x16, 8x16, and 8x8, then tey have to be butted up. You could always cut them down but who would want to go through all that. They look the best butted up. You might want to check the particular sizes on the tiles ahead of time.
Jerry

jadnashua
01-01-2005, 06:42 PM
Just a point of information - the tiles aren't always the "full" stated size. Sometimes they say it is a 12" tile, when it is 11.75 or so (figuring in a grout joint as part of the full square). As noted, double check the actual size of the tiles.

John Bridge
01-01-2005, 06:54 PM
Hi Mac, Welcome. Give us a first name, please. :)

To check on the calibration of the various tiles you can dry lay a few pattern repetitions and figure your joints that way. You'll be using sanded grout in any case. :)

YouRockDaddy
01-01-2005, 08:14 PM
My first name is Marc.

I believe the sizes are 8x8, 8x16, 16x16 and 16x24

Davy
01-01-2005, 08:38 PM
Hi Marc, there are several membranes that will take care of slab cracks. I use alot of Semco, it's a trowel on membrane. Red gard can be used but might take two applications. CIM 500 is Dal Tiles membrane, it's a peel and stick membrane as well as Protecto wrap. Those are the ones I'am familiar with. Others can add to the list. :)

Mike2
01-01-2005, 09:41 PM
Hi Marc. First of all welcome to the Forum.

In post #9 Jerry brings up an important point I want to make sure doesn’t get lost, that being the actual stone size(s) will dictate the spacing. See the picture below for illustration. These Travertine tiles are laid in the Versailles pattern but in this case the tiles are sized such that they must be butted together. This is the “butt install” you mention in post #1. Just be aware you cannot alter/increase the spacing on these tiles without throwing the entire Versailles pattern alignment off.

Conversely in the example picture you posted, it would appear those tiles are sized for something close to 3/16” spacing. Again whatever spacing they are sized for, it cannot be altered – without re-cutting each tile that is.

So if you are purchasing tiles sized for a “butt installed” Versailles pattern just be aware that for all practical purposes there is essentially no room for grout and each butt joint will become a dirt trap.

Davy
01-01-2005, 09:49 PM
Yep, the pattern will dictate the joint size. Even with the stone you pictured Mike, I think a guy could still make the layout for about a 1/16 joint and with the chiseled edge use a sanded grout. What cha think? :)

Mike2
01-01-2005, 10:10 PM
I'm betting your experienced hands could pull it off Davy with not too much prob. But mine, hmmm, I'd give it a try (onna test board first). ;)

YouRockDaddy
01-01-2005, 11:27 PM
Hi Marc. First of all welcome to the Forum.

In post #9 Jerry brings up an important point I want to make sure doesn’t get lost, that being the actual stone size(s) will dictate the spacing. See the picture below for illustration. These Travertine tiles are laid in the Versailles pattern but in this case the tiles are sized such that they must be butted together. This is the “butt install” you mention in post #1. Just be aware you cannot alter/increase the spacing on these tiles without throwing the entire Versailles pattern alignment off.

Thanks, that was a point I was not aware of. I look for pattern in tile stores only for the color, finish, edge treatment and quality, without every thinking about the required spacing between each tile.

I was thinking I would like to have some grout, just not as much as the one in the picture I posted. It is likely I'll find that this pattern is only available in the grout or no grout versions?

Mike2
01-01-2005, 11:41 PM
Dunno what the norm is with Travertine Marc but an excellent question to axe when you go back to the tile store(s). :nod:

YouRockDaddy
01-06-2005, 04:46 PM
I called the wholesaler of the Stone, and they say as long as you lay the intended Versaille Pattern, you can us whatever size grout spacing you like.

Meaning it could be set with or without grout and the Versaille pattern would still fit as intended

jerrymlr1
01-06-2005, 05:35 PM
I called the wholesaler of the Stone, and they say as long as you lay the intended Versaille Pattern, you can us whatever size grout spacing you like.

Meaning it could be set with or without grout and the Versaille pattern would still fit as intended
I can assure you that he doesn't know what he is talking about. It wouldn't surprise me if he has worked at Home Depot. :yeah: If you go to the wholesaler he should let you lay some out and check it. You will find that it will only work one way. However you can do whatever you want but you will be cutting nearly every piece once and sometimes twice. You could even do it with some kind of paper template first. Cut some templates out and try it. For example: Take one section where there is an 8x8 next to an 8x16 (laid vertically) net measurement 16 and above that is a 16x16. Your net measurement is 16 on top and bottom. If you open the joint between the two 8's say a 1/4" you now have 16 above and 16 1/4 on the bottom. Another section has a 16x16 next to an 8x16 ( laid horizontally). Net measurement is 32. Below that an 8x8, 8x16, (horizontally again) and an 8x8. Net 32 again. However you have one grout joint above and two below. Open 1/4 and your net above is 32 1/4 and below 32 1/2. I think once you try it yourself you'll see it clearly. Best of luck.
Jerry

jdm
01-06-2005, 05:56 PM
I'm sure Jerry is correct, but I'm having trouble following the above.

Measure the samples precisely. The length of a (nominally) 16" tile minus double the length of an 8" tile is the only grout width that will work. To prove it, subtract quadruple the length of a 4" tile from the length of a 16" tile. The result will be triple the grout width calculated above.

YouRockDaddy
01-09-2005, 04:32 AM
jerrymlr1 and jdm,

I understand what your saying, I got if from the previous post. That's way I called the the sales person. I don't know this guy, so he could very likely be incorrect (as they offen are). But from what I can tell this company

Marblex Corp
14t5 S. Vernon Street
Anaheim, CA 92805
(714) 780-0999

is a leading wholesaler of this type of patterned stone. (Anaheim is the tile center for southen california with hundreds of tile stores wholesale/retail all within a few miles of eachother) These guys were the first wholesaler I had seen to have about 8 different Versailles pattern displays with every type of Travertine and Sandstone. Pillowed, Chiseled, Brushed, Tumbled, honed, Filled/Unfilled, and about 5 different colors. To put this in perspetive, I could go to 50 retailers in the area and I would be lucky to even find 1 of anything in a Versailles pattern.

So I hope these guy know something about what they sell. Maybe not. The sales guy explained it as "the pattern takes into account for the grout", I asked him if I could set the stone with or without grout and he said yes, but suggesed it looks better with about 1/4" of grout. I then said, would the pattern work of I only wanted say 1/8" grout. He says yes the pattern will account for whatever size grout you like.

There is a layout of the pattern, does this help at all?

Again, thanks for all your help. I don't want to buy 1000 SF of the wrong stuff.

http://www.heavyhitter.com/vp.gif

Davy
01-09-2005, 10:28 AM
Jerry is right, you'll see once you lay out some pieces. :)