Concrete Countertops

[Cami A]

There were some questions about these not too long ago. The book is out now- you can check it out here. (http://www.taunton.com/concrete/index.asp)

If you decide to order it, don't forget to sign up for your 20% discount. (http://www.taunton.com/pages/tplus.asp)

Coincidentally, there's also an article in the new issue of Fine HomeBuilding. I might just try this. Maybe. (That's the wifely I, of course. It means I'll pick out the colors and leave Jack the messy, physical parts.)

[Sponsored Links]

[cx]

Hot damn, ol' Fu-Tung's sure proud of that book! Even MB's book don't cost that much. :)

Thanks for posting that, Cami. I have been kicking that concept around for several years with various customers, but never wanted to take on the experiment from scratch. I think I'll have to invest in the book, overpriced though it may be.

Unless you want to buy it and share. :)

Actually, I'd probably offer to buy it and let you borrow it for your tops if you promise to send it back after - along with comments in the margin about real-life experience, of course.

[Cami A]

Uh huh, sure....where's all that talk about books being just another tool? No, really, you can have mine when I'm done with it in another year or so... the concept will probably be out of style by then anyhow. :D

Went looking at kitchen cabinets today...I'm thinking concrete tops may be all I can afford! :D

[cx]

I'm still of the opinion that books can be tools, but usually when I buy a tool, I at least know what it's for and how well it will work. Now, how do we know that ol' Fu-Tung's tool is gonna be all that useful?

I sure won't need mine before August at the earliest. When do you think you'll actually be at the counter top stage?

Does he allege that concrete tops are inexpensive, or are you just assuming that because you can make them yourself? I kinda doubt they are gonna be a real low-end product in the grand scheme of things.

[Cami A]

Well, I'm guessing the price will be more than formica (because pretty much everything is...) and less than granite, which runs about $70 - $100 a foot around here. Countertop stage should be about this time next year.

[Bud Cline]

Cami,

I haven't built or bought any laminate tops in a long time and I realy don't know the going rates today. Last I remember, the stuff (nothing fancy) was going for about $7 sq ft ($14 running foot).

I can't imagine how concrete could get anywhere near that right now.

[John Bridge]

I can't remember what we discussed the last time this came up, so I may repeat myself (a rare occurrance for sure).

There are two ways to look at concrete counters: pouring them in place; and pouring them off-site and installing them in sections. I've only seen the off-site application, but if I were going to do it, I would pour them in place and do something tricky with the surface. Looking at it that way, is should be fairly inexpensive.

[Cami A]

John, I think that might depend on if you want the surface polished or not- from everything I've read, that is a messy chore. Right now, I'm leaning towards having Jack pour them in the garage. One of the counters will be a curved cantilevered snack bar, so it seems like it would be too hard to pour in place. All right, that's it. I'm ordering the book.

Anybody ever bought any of the pigments they talk about in this excerpt? (http://www.taunton.com/concrete/pages/excerpt.asp) I'd be willing to bet that's where any material cost comes in, other than the form material.

[cx]

I suspect it has been a looooong time since Bud has bought any postformed formica tops. :)

Cami:
I frequently buy those additives in brown and black, and those colors are very inexpensive - like in the dollar a pound range, I think (I've slept since the last purchase). The only other color I've been involved with is yellow. I think it was more expensive, but we only used a tiny bit to add a little tone to some rock mortar.

Check with a supplier that deals materials to rock and brick masons. That's our best source here.

[Bud Cline]

What do every day garden variety laminate tops cost now days?

[John Bridge]

Masonry tints are sort of like tile glaze pigments. Most are common and inexpensive, but some are out of sight. Cobalt blue has always been a high dollar deal, as well as all the really bright primary colors, including yellow.

Even so, I think the percentage of overall project money expended for tints would be low.

Cami, did you mean polish like terrazzo?

I just mentioned concrete tops to Patti and I got "the look."

[cx]

Bud:

Last Formicas I bought were more than twice the price you indicated. It was a small job (maybe 11 - 12 lineal, two pieces), with one finished angle cut, and it ended up about $30 per lineal foot, standard vanity width. That's installed with sink cut-outs and all - TT&L.

I could go to HD and buy blanks plenty cheap (if they had the right color, which they don't), but by the time I deliver, cut to fit, cut and finish the angle, cut out for sinks, make matching splashes, etc., I can't save the customer any dinero and it takes way too much of my time at that stage of construction. Only tops I do myself any more are tile.

John:

I don't think she meant like Terazzo, that's eye-talian, I think she meant Polish, like sausage, or jokes. Didn't you, Cami? :)

[Bud Cline]

30 bucks huh, I have been out of the loop I guess.

Laminate here (raw laminate) is around $2.10 a square foot (Wilsonart), I have done some of that in the last year, now that I think about it.

[Cami A]

Yes, John, I did mean polish like terrazzo...:D One of the popup windows in the link showed the difference in color when polished.

[Sonnie Layne]

there's an oyster in our midst.

[John Bridge]

C'mon, Sonnie. Break that down a little, will ya? :)

[Sonnie Layne]

I just see a pearl in the rough, seems to me that all the talented mud men here could probably easily slip into custom cabinet tops with little expense output. L'huitre, indeed (sp?)

I didn't really need to say all that, eh?

If it were to have been said
I wouldn't have said it.

Glad to know how to make smiley faces...
}:D{

[william hendry]

Hey all -- I got the new book and for those debating it, and its price tag, here's my review:

The book is very well documented with step by step pictures of how to do just about everything regarding making a concrete countertop. There are also lots of pitures of finished countertops, tabletops, walls, hearths, etc, that provoke the imagination. The section on making forms for countertops is particularly impressive; it's also impressive just how much work is involved! There are lots of very precise cuts to be made and the measurements to go with them. This isn't for the average weekend warrior; which is a good thing for the pros out there.

As for casting in place vs off-site: The book gives directions for both approaches as well as the advantages and disadvantages for each. It points out that one of the big disadvantages to the in-place method is the need to be very skilled at floating and finish troweling concrete. And unless you are looking for a steel trowell finish it will be necessary to grind and polish the surface ..... on site. Caution: Grinding and polishing in place is a messy operation that lots of homeowners might not be ready for.

Alternatively, in the off-site method, as the form is made of melamine and the countertop is cast "upside down", the face of the counter takes on the characteristics of the slick melamine surface. IE, your countertop is already virtually perfectly smooth and no polishing is necessary, although that would enhance the surface.

There's also lots of information on concrete; the different types, how to mix it, additives, aggragates, colorants, etc. The resources section tells where you can get all this stuff.

IMHO, this book is clearly written, packed with information, and well worth the price.

[John Bridge]

Okay, I'm buyin' the book. Cami, will you sell me yours for half-price after you've read it?

[Cami A]

OK, my book came while I was downstate. Between you mudmen and flatfloor, lots of terms I've heard before. This is a very nice book, covering both the technical and the artistic side of countertops. Lots of great details- inlays, integral drainboards, inset cutting boards, inset granite slabs for bakers, etc. Thumbs up.

[william hendry]

Uh-oh, doesn't look like she's gonna let go of that book John, might have to get your own copy.

[Cami A]

You sell him yours, William. :D

Patty's never going to let him do concrete tops in the kitchen, anyhow...It will have to be table tops for the patio, instead.

[william hendry]

Not a chance, I'm sleeping with mine! Nice book though,huh?

[John Bridge]

Uh, Cami,

Is that a no?

:D

[Cami A]

Ummm...yes, that is a no. But I'm not sleeping with my book like William. ;)

[Sonnie Layne]

Cami, you got any good reads for stamped concrete?

I'm thinking of enhancing the technique, but I'll have to spend a day or so familiarizing myself with it. God I must be nuts thinking of getting so intimate with concrete at this age, but I figure I'll have to work til I'm John's age, or 90, whichever comes first when I'm 90.:D Anyway, so... I got me some good knee pads.

I've also got a question for the rest of anybody still reading. I know glass is formed from solids and, under heat becomes a liquid and remains so. Are there any forms of concrete work under any conditions that are similar? could they be simulated? How do you do a questioning smiley?

thanks

[Cami A]

Why, Sonnie, you know I'd have a link for you (http://www.decorative-concrete.net/)...Flatfloor might just have more.

Tools and more ideas (http://www.matcrete.com/)

Concrete Network (http://www.concretenetwork.com/)

As for the last paragraph, all I understood was the last question... just type :confused : without any spaces... :D

[Cami A]

Seeing as I'm not the only one interested in concrete tops...
http://www.decorative-concrete.net/photos_countertops.php

[william hendry]

Hey Sonnie, I'm curious what you mean by: "Are there any forms of concrete work under any conditions that are similar?" Similar to forming a glaze? Tell me more.

[Sonnie Layne]

No, I meant retaining fluidity. Sorry for the confusion.

[Sonnie Layne]

Cami,

Oh goody! thanks. Maybe I'll even be able to find out how the forum at Caeser's Palace was poured. Seems it was a big secret last time I asked.

thanks again

[william hendry]

Caesar's Palace????? Isn't that where Jimmy Hoffa's staying?

[Sonnie Layne]

hey, there's a thought. Probably under all those acres of concrete! :)

[dian57]

Jimmy Hoffa is still on the payroll helping support the foundation of the Brendan Byrne Arena in the Meadowlands

[william hendry]

He's a stand up kinda guy, isn't he, really swell! Of course a lot of people think he's rotten to the core.

[J.L. Burns]

He may be rotten to the core but he really excels at pushin up daisies-he's been doin it for years

[Sonnie Layne]

It is, after all, humus that encourages flowers to be their best in nature. All things rotted it seems encourage growth.

[flatfloor]

Those floors at Caesar' are probably colored SLCs. As I had mentioned in a previous post MOST SLCs can't be colored but it is being done. I'm working on it.

[Sonnie Layne]

Wow...would be some really crafty colouring. Tho' those hollywood types can pull off damned near anything. So how would the texture be acheived? Next time I'm there, I swear I ain't leaving until I find out all about this process. I should maybe post the query to a concrete board. It's been one those nagging questions with no definitive answers.

SLC's...could be, could be...

[william hendry]

have you seen this stuff?

http://www.designerfloors.com/gallery.htm

[Sonnie Layne]

William, that's really cool stuff! I'll have to take time to learn about it.

[william hendry]

Yeah, I'd also like to find out more about these toppings and their limitations. I can envision creating some really neat stuff with it in conjunction with tile. I saw today in a magazine where Mapei has come out with a product called Ultratop that is a "stainable, self leveling, cementious topping" designed for commercial and industrial flooring use. But a search of their site and the internet comes up with very little; and I want pictures. Maybe Flatfloor know something of this...Are you out there Jim?

[flatfloor]

I'm here but Mapei doesn't share with me.

[John Bridge]

I can't imagine why not. ;)

[Tom]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/15http://www.taunton.com/concrete/index.asp

[Tom]

Sorry, lets try that again -
http://www.taunton.com/concrete/index.asp

[Tom]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1561584843/qid%3D1018659566/sr%3D8-1/ref%3Dsr%5F8%5F3%5F1/104-8479548-4676719

[Paul D.]

I really like that cast-in-place article on the decorative-concrete.net site Cami posted.:D The edge framing molding answers a big question for me. I was under the impression you made rounded edges using concrete edging tools after the pour. Sure can't do that for full-round edges though. I wonder if a 1-1/2 HP router would drive a large enough bit to custom-make edging?

You know, a fellow named Dave Ashton responded to a post I made in the Deep End in January on this subject. He had some direct experience in concrete counter-tops. Haven't seen him around here lately tho'. I think I'll solicit his comments for this thread.

I did get the issue of FH with this article in it, but it doesn't give you many details for the $6 magazine tag. :(

[Cami A]

Your smilies are coming along nicely, Paul. :D

The topic of edging in the book is a little on the vague side. Most shown are very simple (but appropriate for the material), as the emphasis is usually on the top of the counter. The author does recommend easing the edges just after removing the counter from the mold.

There's an appendix on creating a drop-down edge, and a note that "beveling back the face slightly works ergonomically and aesthetically...concrete's plasticity allows for a wide variety of edge possibilities: beveled back, eased, stepped, and sweeping. For a more traditional look, use an inset of ogee molding in the form. Generally, edges can be eased with a radius of between 1/4 in and 1/2 in...."

If you were my husband, I might suspect that you were looking for an excuse to buy a new router... ;)

[Paul D.]

An "excuse"?! No Cami, a REASON. There is a difference you know...C'mon, you know how it goes: "Hey Honey with that $800 table saw, I could save about $10,000 in blah, blah, blah...."

"If you were my husband..."? Now you know this sort of thing is gender-based. So don't discriminate with your suspicions. ;)

Really now though, my favorite line in this article from dec-concrete.net is:

"Before you begin, it is prudent to educate your customer (wife) to expect and welcome the variations that are inherent and even desirable in handcrafted products." (My edits.)

Man...what a bunch. Think they got that line from the autobiography of Rodin?
http://www.paris.org/Musees/Rodin/gifs/thinker.html
Bet not. :D

[Cami A]

Paul, Paul, Paul....fine, no more gender discrimination. I'll try again.



If you were my wife, I might suspect that you were looking for an excuse to buy a new router...


Better? :D


Check out the concrete "pavers" and windowsill in the third kitchen in the portfolio at concrete canvas. (http://www.concretecanvas.net/indexFrame.html)

[John Bridge]

Dave A. is probably out playing Rugby. Either that or drinking some kind of imported or micro-brewed beer.

He's an engineer also, Paul.

What's all this gender stuff? This is a unisex site, as everyone knows. ;)

[Sonnie Layne]

uhhh, uni what??

[Paul D.]

John, No harm intended, just wanted to give Cami the business on her tool comment :D. Unisex for sure...there seems to be a very good diversity of types here on your site.

Hmmm, you're probably right about Dave. This is rugby season, lacrosse season, bicycle season, climbing....I did see him post in the last week or so though. Seems he said he had maybe six of these counter tops under his belt. I thought he was a contractor with that many units completed.

I am actually going to take a wack at a small patio table (beer prop) this weekend. I let y'all know how it goes.

[flatfloor]

Unisex..sounds like something you do alone. :D

[Cami A]

Not according to the sign for unisex restrooms...

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~peiho/unisex.gif


Please duly note that I am exercising great restraint in not making any jokes about Jim being alone with a router...

[flatfloor]

Thanks, Ah appurtiate thet. :D

[Sonnie Layne]

duly noted, I appreciate such grand efforts. Shows uncommon restraint and dignity. The quality of my life for the remainder of the day has improved just knowing that someone out there possesses such scrutiny and well contained inhibitions.

Geez... ROFLMAO

[Cami A]

Oh, Sonnie...my three yr old is hanging on my shirt asking why I'm laughing so much! http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/roll.gif

[Sonnie Layne]

jes givem a tickle in the ribs and say "That's WHY!!!"

[Dave Ashton]

Guess I better jump in here.

I have been out playing rugby. And checking out my options with the National Guard...that Army blood is hard to bleed out completely. And, I am an engineer, Paul, and a contractor. Lots of hats being thrown around here. So where to start....I like rugby. ( Well, I like beer too, but you all already know about that stuff.)

We beat the local University boys this past weekend as well as Grinnel College. A good lesson in experience over youth and speed. We start 7's rugby practice this Wednesday...so, I'll get in a minimum of two evenings of rugby practice usually followed by a beer or two, maybe even three. Hard to schedule around all the kids soccer stuff, etc.

Army. Lots of unanswered questions me being a former officer trying to jump to the enlisted side. Not sure if it's in the cards or not. Big commitment for me and the family. Im sure RobZ will have a comment on this.

Engineering. Who has time to engineer when there is all this tile to set!!

Concrete countertops....whats the question here anyway?? LOL. (I dont know how to get a picture smile...yet)I got rounded edges two ways. No, three ways. Rounded metal. Wood trim. Large edger. The metal came out the best but that is probabaly because I am better at packing deck mud than finishing a concrete slab. You could grind the edges or use a router...one like the production granite guys use. But it gives a terrazo look and the bits, not to mention the router are big bucks.

I haven't read the book from FHB but did read the recent article. Those countertops are beautiful, and with the right kitchen layout I would consider "inverse placement". But the kitchens I did had counter space longer than 8 feet, or had a 45 degree corner, and one of the beauties of concrete countertops for me is no seams, something you can get with on site placement. (Im avoiding the language "pouring". Concrete is not poured, its placed, right Paul.) Not to mention you dont have to haul the heavy thing around, and risk dropping or cracking it...or both.

Ok, now I'll go read all the posts I missed while I was out screwing around....thanks for missing me.

[Paul D.]

BS part:
Good for you Dave. All work and no play... 7's season is exciting. I used to play as well. Learned on Michigan's club team to play fullback. Got into lacrosse after an unfortunate ending to my first try at wing-forward. :rolleyes: Oh well. It's fun playing with sticks, tho' I remember what it was like playing the city rugby clubs as a college student: "..don't worry they might be big, but they're fast too..." Cinci, Detroit, Akron, Chicago used to beat our bottoms most of the time. We even had to Eagles on our college team at the time (1980): Billy Chung at inside back and John (?), a comically fast winger.

Business part:
Edges for cast-in-place. Wood trim. A variety of dimensions in the 1-1/4 to 2"+ half-round (cove) is available here in Austin right off the rack. Is this the type of material you used?

Metal edging. You describe "rounded metal." What was this material? Seems metal would work well, but more difficult to attach to a wooden frame.

Wood edging. Ever put a stained wood edge on a concrete top? Any tricks to this?

[Dave Ashton]

Paul:

The wood trim options you are talking about would work well. For the metal I used a heavy gauge metal and rolled it on a pipe column. In hindsight it would be easier to have it fabbed at a machine shop. It was stiff enough that it held its shape and did not require any fasteners. To avoid a seam in the edge of the countertop that form was rabbeted out on a table saw the thickness of the metal.

Yes, two countertops had maple trim. The key is to finish the wood completely(all sides) before placement. If you dont the wood will suck the moisture from the concrete and warp. The trim boards will act as your forms you just dont have to strip them. You will develop a fine crack along the wood/concrete intersection. On one countertop this was caulked. The other was an epoxy overlay job. That is a whole separate topic.

Something I thought may look interesting is to construct your forms so the front edge is recessed down the thickness of V cap tile plus a little bit. After the concrete has cured you could come back and set the cap with thinset. Never tried it, dont know how it would look.

Always nice to meet a fellow rugger. I started playing at the U of Iowa in 1985. In fifteens I play wing forward, or eight man. In a pinch I will lock or move to one of the center positions. In 7's I either prop, hook, or play scrum half. I enjoy 7's as much if not more than 15's anymore.

Good luck with your table.

[Cami A]

Dragging this out of obscurity for this link (http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=19851.1), which includes some tips and approximate psf pricing from one poster.