Interstate Highway System

[cx]

This qualifies for the History Forum on accounta John said so.

I call upon our favorite research assistant to come to my aid here. I am very sure of my position, but have no demonstrable basis for my argument. That will in no way, of course, prevent my taking a vociferous stand, to wit:

I say the Interstate Highway system as we know it was federally mandated and funded under the Defense Department (still the War Department then?) because there was no other Constitutional way to do it. (I don't think it could have been floated as necessary for mail delivery). I believe the reasoning presented at the time was that it was necessary for the defense of the country to be able to move large numbers of troops and quantities of equipment from coast to coast in a timely manner.

I don't think that was the necessarily the real reason, but that's the one that got it through the Congress.

Who can argue otherwise?

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[JC]

Well according to some local Pennsylvania dept of transportation sign I read somewhere I believe the first interstate was route 30 that crosses Pennsylvania.

I could be wrong though(it is not uncommon).

Not sure who funded it but I believe it was origenally a toll road. Alot of bridges and roads got financed that way back in the day.

Does that help or am I spewing some more mis-information again..hehe

[JC]

Woohoo I was right *jumps up and down*...well almost.

Heres a link I got when I punched in route 30.

I have seen the ole road and drove on it. But mostly there is another highway that runs parrelel(replaced it) where you can see the old route wind back and forth and criss croos the road about 200 times. It is now called scenic route 30 and is diffenatly the scenic route due to its endless turns , A lot of hills around here and I am sure back then they did'nt could'nt blast away mountains like they do know.

http://www.paus30.org/

[Cami A]

Well, cx, this shouldn't have any problem qualifying as history. The Office of Road Inquiry was created in 1893 to gather and disseminate information on road building. At that time most road construction was performed by county and township governments, or by private turnpike companies, who made their money with tolls.

The Federal-aid highway program began in 1916, during the Presidency of Woodrow Wilson. Federal-aid funds were apportioned to the States to assist in road projects. One of the requirements for Federal-aid was that each State must have a State road agency. Initially, the funding was restricted to road and bridge projects.

Eisenhower was an avid supporter of the Federal Highway System; it was during his presidency that the current system was passed. His first realization of the value of good highways occurred in 1919, when he participated in the U.S. Army's first transcontinental motor convoy from Washington, D.C., to San Francisco. On the way west, the convoy experienced all the woes known to motorists and then some - an endless series of mechanical difficulties; vehicles stuck in mud or sand; trucks and other equipment crashing through wooden bridges; roads as slippery as ice or dusty or the consistency of "gumbo"; extremes of weather from desert heat to Rocky Mountain freezing; On Sept. 5, 1919, after 62 days on the road, the convoy reached San Francisco, where it was greeted with medals, a parade, and more speeches. Eisenhower stated, "The old convoy had started me thinking about good, two-lane highways, but Germany (Autobahn) had made me see the wisdom of broader ribbons across the land."

It would take another war before the federal government would act on a national highway system. During World War II, a tremendous increase in trucks and new roads were required. The war demonstrated how critical highways were to the defense effort. Thirteen per cent of defense plants received all their supplies by truck, and almost all other plants shipped more than half of their products by vehicle. The war also revealed that local control of highways had led to a bewildering array of design standards. Even federal and state highways did not follow basic standards. Some states allowed trucks up to 36,000 pounds, while others restricted anything over 7,000 pounds. A government study recommended a national highway system of 33,920 miles, and Congress soon enacted the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1944, which called for strict, centrally controlled design criteria.


In 1956, the program expanded to include funding for what is now officially called the Dwight D. Eisenhower System of Interstate and Defense Highways, more commonly called the Interstate System, with the Federal Highway Trust Fund providing a stable source of funding, from highway users, for the Federal-aid highway program.

I'm suprised at how long it took for the current system to come to be. I would have guessed that it would have only taken one war...As for the original question in the other thread, I found nothing that related the highway system to the Constitution.

Source 1 (http://www.greatachievements.org/greatachievements/ga_11_2.html)

Source 2 (http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ctdiv/history.htm)

More info on passing the Federal Highway Act of 1956 (http://www.tfhrc.gov/pubrds/summer96/p96su10.htm)

[Edited by Cami A on 03-20-2002 at 09:19 AM]

[John Bridge]

Thanks, Cami. That took a lot of digging.

But it doesn't corraborate CX's stance. I am amazed that a guy who is a Libertarian with a big "L" would think that the highway system is covered in the Constitution.

The only time the word "road" is used at all in the Constitution in in Article I, Section 8. This is the part that tells us what the federal government can levy taxes for -- in other words, what the federal government CAN do under the Constitution. Among the enumerated items is this:

"To establish post offices and post roads;"

That's all, folks.

The Interstate highway system and its predecessors, U.S. highways, are justified under the "Commerce Clause" of the Constitution, along with about nine million other items that are otherwise unconstitutional. Congress through the years has been able to get away with saying all these things have to do with interstate commerce.

The Commerce Clause is also in Article I, Section 8.

"To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes."

So the feds can't build roads constitutionally speaking, and this is why it took so long for a national system to develop. And even now, the states do the building, not the feds. That's how they get around it.

But there is not, nor has there ever been, any provision for building a national system of roads for national defense. It's not there, and that's why you can't find it. It would be unconstitutional.


On the same tack, did you know that James Madison vetoed the Erie Canal? He determined that it would be unconstitutional to use federal funds for it. Consequently, the canal was built with a combination of New York State and private funds. It was a sellout and a success of course. But Madison was right.

[Cami A]

Yes, John, I know it doesn't support cx's stance...I snuck that in just before the footnotes, trying to be discreet about it. :D

[JC]

Where is the Erie canal anyways... Did'nt it used to connect lake erie with the ohio river? I was at lake erie and read a bunch of stuff about it but never could find it.

[John Bridge]

Albany to Buffalo -- 360 miles.

[cx]

John, John, John, I didn't say it was Constitutional, I said that's how they got AROUND the Constitutional issue.

I'll return with more comment later. But you knew that. :)

Thanks, Cami. That's good stuff.

Damn, when I ain't confused, I'm misunderstood! :(

[JC]

nowonder I could'nt find it I was in the wrong state!

[JC]

Wait a minute I knew I could'nt be that stupid so I found this

http://www.loc.gov/bicentennial/propage/PA/pa-21_h_english3.html

I live near Beaver and never seen any canal..anywhere.

Am I correct that this article is saying they turned the canal beds into railroads tracks?? That might be why I could'nt find it huh? hmmm just when you have the whole world all figured out something like this happens...

[flatfloor]

http://www.syracuse.com/features/eriecanal/thumbnail_pix/canal_mapanddepth.gif

[JC]

Jim your getting pretty good at finding stuff.

Now see if you can find a map of the Pittsburg-Lake Erie canal? I want to check it out with my own eyes...if I can find it.

[flatfloor]

Your wish is my command ;)


http://pa-canal-society.org/sitemap2.jpg










Here's a good site for Pa canals http://www.northeast.railfan.net/canal.html
Best I could do but you can see how they tied together.



[Edited by flatfloor on 03-21-2002 at 07:55 PM]

[JC]

You mean there was one that basically followed the same route as the turnpike all the way to philly..Wow dats alot of digging!
So these old canals are railroad tracks now..sneaky bastiges

[John Bridge]

JC,

You have to remember they didn't have roads back in those days. They had dirt tracks they called "roads." And just about any road that could support a heavy cargo wagon was a toll road and privately owned.

They also didn't have railroads. So a very good way to transport goods and persons was by water. They plied all the rivers that were navigable and dug canals where feasible. When the railroads came, they literally changed the course of history.

[cx]

JC:

The first home I remember from childhood was in Muncy, Pennsylvania, a tiny little berg near Williamsport. Our house was about 50 feet from a very active railroad track, and on the other side of the track, in some places, were remnants of a canal system. Perhaps the railroad line was built over the canal in places, because the canal was just long, narrow strips of stagnant water, going nowhere. I suspect maybe it ran into the Susquehana (sp?) river which was nearby.

All my life I thought that canal was part of the Erie Canal. It was only MUCH later in life (like 20 years ago?) that I learned that the real Erie Canal wasn't even in Pennsylvania.

So don't feel like the Lone Ranger. :)

[John Bridge]

Well, now the folks who have tuned into this post have a little better appreciation of history than they did before. It's catchy. Get enough of it, and you can't leave it alone. Get too much of it and you lose your place in time.

:)

[Cami A]

Somehow, I can picture a few of you guys doing encampments!!

They're pretty popular around here- lotsa folks in period costume in the summer- even a few crazy ones in the winter.

http://www.mackinacparks.com/michilimackinac/

[JC]

Yea there is a medievel one near where I live. Need to check it out sometime.

[John Bridge]

Re-enactors. That's what they are called. Many of them just enjoy the outings, but some of them are pretty fine historians, too. And some of them are so focused they become the best available experts in their period or topic.

[cx]

Plenty of that goes on here in ol' San Antonio this time of year. Lotta old fat guys pretending to defend The Alamo and whatnot. Lots of smoke from way too much powder in the muskets and cannons. Lots of dressing up in funny clothes. Lots of newspaper pichers. I suspect lots of beer, too. San Antonio LOVES that kinda stuff.

I'm betting on the Mexicans again this year. :D

[John Bridge]

That's a good bet, CX, but don't bet on them during the Battle of San Jacinto, which comes up next month. Right now Sam Houston is generally recruiting and moving some of those old fat guys in the direction of Louisiana. He's hoping he'll have a sufficient army by the time Santa Anna catches up with him. I'll keep you posted as events unfold.