Installing a shower [Archive] - Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

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Lynda
07-05-2001, 12:18 PM
Hi, I have a basement shower that was done wrong and I would like to redo it properly. After reading Diane's problem and how she was going to do it on her own, I've decided to also try it with help from the experts on this board. Unlike Diane's problem, mine should be easier. All we have there now is a cement floor and about 2/3 of the shower floor is a hole filled with loose earth, a 1 1/2" ABS pipe and a drain. In Home Depot, in Ontario, they don't carry a shower drain with weeping holes as shown in the illustration by Michael Byrne. Would not having the holes be a problem?
Our two inner walls are block, to make our base we will attach a 2 by 6 for one wall and a double 2 by 6 for the theshold and add a 3/4" plywood as the base, 3x3.
Please tell us if you see any problems arising so far.
Thanks for being there.

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John Bridge
07-05-2001, 02:57 PM
Hi Lynda,

Lucky you, you will be the third lady we are currently helping with a shower. Besides Diane, we have Daisey French (racerette), who is almost finished with her shower.

You are also lucky inasmuch as we have two professional members from Ontario, Bri and Harry. One or both of them will tell you where to find the drain with weep holes.

That drain, by the way, is standard, and it fits onto a 2 in. pipe, not 1-1/2 in. Your pipe is not to standard. Maybe you ought to measure it again just to be sure. If it is 1-1/2 in. you can install a bushing in the drain which will reduce it to fit your pipe.

Other than that, there are no problems. You're in good hands. Let's see what some of the others have to say.

Oh, one more thing. If there is any possible way you can come up with a photo or two, it makes the process easier. It's not essential, though.

Bud Cline
07-05-2001, 05:42 PM
"WHOA" I'm missing something here maybe.... 2X6's & plywood??? Shower??? I don't think I agree with this just yet.

Which two walls are block?

John, have you ever done a shower out of cement block walls placed directly on an existing concrete floor with a floor drain? The Laticrete products we talk about from time to time can be used to do this. I certainly hope it works because I have four showers built like this at of all places the County Jail.

Blocks were installed, waterproofed with Laticrete 9235, then tiled. This was done with the blessings of the architects that designed the project. Pretty slick and pretty quick, right down to the roll over curbs.

Harry
07-05-2001, 05:45 PM
Hi Lynda and John .....
I buy most of my plumbing stuff at Home Depot up in Barrie Ont, and they always seem to have exactly what I need, including the "Standard Floor & Shower Drains
with Membrane Clamping Ring" ... but there are days the guys at HD don't know their butt from a hole in the ground. These drains aren't a speciality item and should be found at any plumbing store.

I added an image of one here (hope I load it right)

http://www.ontariotile.com/drain.gif

Let us know how you make out

Harry

kalford
07-05-2001, 06:18 PM
Lynda,
Have you thought about sloping the base to the drain? A "pre-slope" under the liner(chloraloy)will ensure that all water that gets to the liner also goes to the drain.You can do this with sand&cement mixed with a latex liquid.Cover the plywood base with 15lb. felt paper then metal-lath(expanded metal) You want 1/4" of fall for every foot.Make a mark on the walls at the appropriate height and tack screed strips to it.Put the modified mud in and float it from the screed strips down to the drain.When setting up the measurements for the screed strips remember that you want about 3/8" of mud at the drain.Once the mud sets you can pour a little water on it to make sure the slope is adequate.

Set the liner on top of that and the finish mudbed goes over that..........Oh,once you have floated the slope mud take the screed strips out and fill the voids with mud.

Did I leave out anything John,Bud,Derek...anybody??

Lynda
07-05-2001, 10:20 PM
Thanks to everyone for the fast replies. John I measured again and the size of the pipe is 1 1/2" I got the bushing to increase the pipe to 2". I'm still looking for a drain with the weeping holes, as soon as I find one I'll install the drain and continue from there. Hopefully I can get back to you before you can finish a 24 pack(or maybe not).
Thanks again.

Lynda
07-06-2001, 03:28 PM
Hi everyone! I am really in a dilemma. I have checked ten stores and no one has a shower drain with weeping holes.
Two people have even told me that its not a good idea to have weeping holes because the moisture from the trap might come up from the holes and damage the base. Please any ideas or sugestions?
What if I use the drain without the holes would it be so bad? Does anyone know where I can get the drain, in the Toronto area?
Thanks again for your help and patience.

kalford
07-06-2001, 03:56 PM
Lynda,
Who are the two @#%**@#@#$#@......people that told you that!? I'd spend the money for a long-distance call just to talk to these........"experts".Sounds like HomeDepot's finest.

The weep holes are necessary for an escape route for water that seeps/soaks through to the liner.According to their thinking you should just run a straight pipe out to the yard.LOL

John Bridge
07-06-2001, 04:09 PM
Lynda, you've just got to slow down. Toronto is a big town. I guarantee you there are probably 50 places there that sell the drains everyday. Did you look at the picture that Harry posted? If you find a drain that looks like that one, it will have weeping holes built into it. And yes, you absolutely must have weeping holes. I am going to post a link to the company that makes the drains that Home Depot sells. The company is called Oatey. Study the picture. I'll bet they have it at Home Depot, and those nerds just don't know it.

http://www.oatey.com/graphics/products/drains/42210.gif

The site is located at: http://www.oatey.com/products/drains/drains_shower.html

Rob Z
07-06-2001, 07:22 PM
Lynda


Around here (Virginia) at least, everyone refers to these as "Richmond Drains". Maybe the same name is used up in your area? If you are asking for a "shower drain", they may be thinking of the type of drain that goes on an acrylic or fiberglass shower base.

I have several out on the shelf in the garage. I could send you one for some genuine Canadian Molson?

Good luck,

Rob

Bri
07-06-2001, 07:36 PM
I was at Home Depot today..and they have the drain you are looking for...it doesn't say on the package that there are weeping holes..but they are there...just go to the plumbing department and get a clamping drain as Harry and John have shown in their diagrams.

Lynda
07-06-2001, 10:00 PM
Hey guys first I'd like to say to Rob that I will need the Molson when I'm installing the drain. Bri I bought the exact drain that John has showing from Home Depot and yet there are no holes. Is this a plumbers secret where the holes are? I took the whole drain apart and there are no holes in this unit. And no this is not a drain for an
acrylic or fiberglass shower base. By any chance are the holes beside the 3 big screws on the clamping part? If not then where are they?

Rob Z
07-06-2001, 10:07 PM
Lynda


Unscrew the bolts so that the upper half of the drain can be removed. Look at the underside of the upper piece. Do you see small grooves that run from the outer perimeter into the center?

Rob

Bri
07-06-2001, 10:07 PM
Hi
As I remember there are some slots on the threaded part of the drain....i think?

Harry
07-06-2001, 10:09 PM
Lynda
I share the same amazment as everyone else here regarding this drain problem. That is like going to the drug store and asking for asprin and the clerk saying there's no such thing.

You might even try these guys(call first):
"Powell Plumbing Supplies"
460 Elgin Mills E
Richmond Hill
tel: (905) 883-1616

And yes .... as Kalford and the others said, get the ones with holes otherwise you'll creat a water trap.

Harry

Lynda
07-06-2001, 10:28 PM
Harry the asprin would go good about now. I'm starting to loose sleep over this. I hope I can explain this before my headache turns into a migrane. I took the three screws off on the underside of the top piece there are three holes for the screws and one circular groove around the center, not from the outer edge in.

Bri
07-06-2001, 10:33 PM
Hi
I'm going to the HD in the morning....I'll get the name and code number for you, so you can get the correct one..I'm working most of the day, so I hope you're not in too much of a hurry.

Brian

Lynda
07-06-2001, 10:46 PM
I believe the drain I got from Home Depot is the right one.
I think I've solved the plumbers secret puzzle.
The weeping holes are beside the screws. I hope this will help the next woman plumber wannabe. Now its time to say goodnight to John and all his friends. I would like to thank you all for kindly helping me.

Rob Z
07-07-2001, 06:08 AM
Lynda

YAYYY! Problem solved!

Now, on to the next step. I've forgotten what your project was! Let me go review the thread, and come back to see us if you have more Q's.

Rob

John Bridge
07-07-2001, 07:05 AM
Let me try it this way.

There are three major components to the drain: the lower flange which mounts onto the pipe, the upper flange which bolts to the lower flange (with the pan material in between) and the drain insert which threads into the upper flange. On the Oatey drain there are slots or channels on the underside of the upper flange which allow water to travel through. Additionaly, there are very small round holes along side the screw holes. There are also channels cut through the threads on the insert. Water can get through all of these. All of the clamping drains (every brand) have some sort of means for water to "weep" through once the drain is assembled.

If you have a clamping, flanged drain, it will work.

John

You got it figured out while I was typing. I was about to take a weep hole picture and post it to the Internet. :-)

Lynda
07-07-2001, 09:35 AM
John you explained it well I wish you had said this 2 pages ago. But you came through like always, I hope this will help someone in the future with the same problem. Now I will glue a 1 1/2" to 2" bushing to the 1 1/2" pipe thats connected to the trap and glue the drain unit to that.
step 3 coming up.........

Bud Cline
07-07-2001, 11:18 AM
Well what the hell, here's my two cents.

First of all you absolutely DO want weep holes in the style shower you are installing. Second the holes may in fact be elongations, but holes non-the-less, and you can see them by looking inside the tube. There should be three of them. The flange that clamps the liner allows water to weep to these holes. The flange itself will not have holes (except for the bolt holes) but instead grooves (and only in the top flange plate underside) these grooves will align with the holes in the tube (sorta).

These floor drain fixtures are also available made of cast iron, at any rate you should have (when disassebled) three major parts plus three bolts, one strainer and two strainer screws.

Technically these weep holes do not accomodate the water that gets thru the liner as previously stated but in fact these weep holes allow the water that gets thru the tile and grout to drain above the liner. Water should not be getting thru the liner for any reason. The liner clamps between the lower flange and the upper flange with three bolts, the adjustable strainer tube then threads into the upper flange. This strainer tube has long threads to accomodate the upper floor thickness, this floor is concrete poured above the liner. The tile then attaches to this upper floor.

kalford
07-07-2001, 11:32 AM
If water get's "thru" the liner you'll have to start over!!

Lynda
07-09-2001, 05:32 PM
Hello everyone, I finally got the subfloor and the walls done.
It actually looks just like the one in Michael Byrne's picture. Now on to the next step, "Deck Mud" I looked for it at Home Depot. They have no idea what it is, does Harry or Bri know what I should be asking for at H.D? Also can I just add the deck mud right on the plywood without the tar paper and metal lath first?
Thanks.

kalford
07-09-2001, 05:47 PM
Lynda,
The people at HD are usually not familiar with tile installer terminology.Try asking them for "premixed sand and cement".I'm not sure if they carry it or not.

Harry
07-09-2001, 06:51 PM
Deck mud is your own creation from portland cement and sand, approximately five parts sharp sand to one part of portland cement. As Keith said .... it's a dry premix sold in 50LB bags (sorry I can't think of any particular brand sold at HD).

It is mixed with only a enough water to moisten it so that it can be compacted. I usually mix it in a wheelbarrel with a garden hoe. Notice how dry the mixture is in Michael Byrne's illustration, it makes it much easier to scrape smooth than if mixed too wet. If mixed properly, you can walk on it immediately after applied and compressed.

If its a small shower, I wouldn't bother with the lath, but if you're in doubt .... go ahead, it sure can't hurt although I'd still use the tar paper. Maybe some of the others can explain it better.

Bud Cline
07-09-2001, 07:55 PM
Probably the the best known brand of premixed cement products like we're talking about are Sak-Crete and U-Mix. I think both are sold nation wide. This stuff comes two ways, one is sand and cement and and is called simply "sand mix", the other is called concrete mix which is the same as the previous but also contains small rock. They both come in 50 or 60 pound bags. Either can be used for the first pour, this is to slope the liner. I use sand mix for both pours, I think it's just easier.

Lynda
07-09-2001, 09:15 PM
Thanks guys, Bud I did see Sak-Crete there so I'll go with that. Bud have you tried that Sakcrete could it be mixed dry like in Michael Byrne's illustration?

Bud Cline
07-09-2001, 09:52 PM
Absolutely!

I consider Sak-Crete one of (if not) the best sac mix on the market, been using this product for twenty-five years.

Lynda
07-09-2001, 10:07 PM
Thanks Bud I will use Sak-crete and mix it dry.
Wish me luck I'll need it, but then again with everyone giving me great advice I think I'll do alright. Step 3 coming up!

John Bridge
07-10-2001, 03:14 PM
Man, I hope she gets the one without the rocks. Did you really mean to say that, Bud?

And, if the subfloor is wood, we use tar paper and lath stapled to the floor. If it's a concrete floor, we bond the mud down with thin set. We do not use lath in the final floor, but it certainly can't hurt anything. And, as Harry alluded, if the floor were quite large, I'd use the lath throughout of it were over a wood subfloor.

Derek & Jacqui
07-10-2001, 03:36 PM
The best way to gauge if the mix is right is to squeeze it in your hand; when you open your hand it should retain its shape.

John Bridge
07-10-2001, 06:00 PM
That's exactly it! I call it "sand castle material."

kalford
07-10-2001, 06:28 PM
John,
You've inspired me!! That is an incredible idea for a project I can do with my kids!!! And it will last too!!
I have about half a bag of "floor float" in my shed.I'm gonna tell my daughter(she's 8) to start thinking about how we should make it look!!!

Bud Cline
07-10-2001, 06:31 PM
John, your right I left it a little vague. I have used both products with good results but obviously the sand mix is easier to work with.

Depending on what I have laying around I will frequently use rock mix for the first cast just to use product on hand.

Lynda
07-10-2001, 09:12 PM
Hi everyone, I got the sakrete without the rocks.
Do I really need to use tar paper? Home Depot only has tar paper in a big roll, way more than I need I only need 3' X 3'. Can I use something else? The lath is no problem.
Thanks.

John Bridge
07-11-2001, 05:53 AM
Hi Lynda,

You can use anything that will keep the floor from sucking the moisture from the mud; plastic sheeting (poly), cement sacks, plastic garbage bags, old shower curtain -- I've done it all.

Lynda
07-11-2001, 06:39 AM
Great! thanks John.

Bud Cline
07-11-2001, 05:09 PM
John, John, John,

Gobis is going to kill you when he sees that confession.

Harry
07-11-2001, 07:06 PM
Somewhere down in Texas there's a lady wondering where her old lime green shower curtains disappeared to. :)

John Bridge
07-12-2001, 01:31 PM
I didn't appropriate that shower curtain. My helper did it.

chip
07-12-2001, 03:07 PM
I'd put a shower curtain down, but I'd be damned if I would ever use "CORK"?!?!?!?

Consistancy, "thats" the name of the game.

Now where is my shampoo?

OOO SOO LO MEOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bud Cline
07-12-2001, 03:36 PM
Hey Art,

OOO SOO LO MEOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My wife has a Furby that says that very thing all the time.

flatfloor
07-12-2001, 03:44 PM
After reading about Lynda's quest for the appropriate drain at Home Depot (yeah, maybe she saved a few bucks) why the hell not go to an independent plumbing supply house where they know what they are doing? How much time did she waste, Lynda?

They also probably had the appropriate mud mix.

John Bridge
07-12-2001, 07:00 PM
Jim, Jim, we're talking to people in Canada. Us Texas boys, at least, don't know what kinda stores they have up there. I'm sorry they've been invaded by Home Depot!

A couple summers ago I passed through British Columbia, and (blessed relief) I didn't see anything that even approached the look of a HD. But by God, the golden arches were all over the place. Tripped over one of the %&*!# arches as I was trying to make my way over to Jack in the Box!

flatfloor
07-12-2001, 09:02 PM
Sorry about that, hope I didn't offend Lynda. My anger is meant for the HDs of this world. Mostly because of all the bad info they give out, and what they are trying to do to the small independants, or Ace-TruValue types. I go to an old time hardware store, 100 years+ old with wood floors and loose nails in bins etc. etc and they know what they are talking about. Around here HD has a goal of a store every 7 miles and they are getting close. Someday they are going to eat themselves.

BTW, I can't believe until HD came along Canadiens had no indoor plumbing.

Rob Z
07-12-2001, 09:09 PM
Jim

Every trip to HD results in a smaller and smaller list of things that I will buy there. They really have turned into the McDonalds of retail.

Do you ever leave McDonalds satisfied? or glad that you succumbed to the temptation to stop? I don't. I usually leave HD , at the very least, with elevated blood pressure. Most often, though I am completely pissed off.


Rob

Lynda
07-12-2001, 09:09 PM
Hello everyone, just finished laying down the first layer of Mud. It looks very good, you would be proud of me. I broke a few nails and still picking the cement out of the rest. Now its time for the liner, any suggestions or ideas before I start? Also the sides of the liner I will staple but how about the base? does it just sit there, or do I glue it down? Thanks for your support.

Rob Z
07-12-2001, 09:14 PM
Hi Lynda

Glad to hear you're making progress. The pan liner can be nailed along the upper edges. The lower portions are folded and tucked into corners, and you can use a little caulk on the underside to help hold things in place until you get the mud in there.

Did anyone mention to you about using dam corners ?

What brand of pan liner are you using?

Rob

flatfloor
07-12-2001, 09:15 PM
Rob, I have said this publicly before--This country started to go down the tubes the day the first McDaaagh (I can't say it) opened.

On that note I will say good night.

PS Lynda, you make me feel like a lazy bum!

Bud Cline
07-12-2001, 09:16 PM
It just lays there, pretty high tech huh? Be careful where you place your staples. You'll have to push and pucker that rascal to fit the corners and angles without holding it in place too much with staples. No staples anywhere below the height of your final curb height.

Lynda
07-12-2001, 09:23 PM
Hey Flatfloor, no offence taken. I went to a plumbing store that is at least 100 years old with no floor, walk in at your own risk. The 70 year old man working there since before he was sperm told me they stopped making it. Not too mention the other 8 stores that I had called. If I didn't get the help from people on this board I wouldn't know what to do at all.

Rob Z
07-12-2001, 09:27 PM
Lynda

You're getting to be as entertaining as some of the crusty old salts on this forum. Keep it up, and you'll be out drinking beers with all of us at the end of the workday.

Rob

Lynda
07-12-2001, 09:52 PM
I need to cut 2 pieces of cement board 7'x18" for the walls, what do you suggest I use to cut it with?
Also my liner is the pvc type. Why when installing the liner do you stop short 1" below the top of the 2X6? Why not let the liner go as high as it will go? I thought the liner was to go 3" higher than the threshold height.

John Bridge
07-13-2001, 05:39 PM
Lynda,

Maybe your threshold (curb) height is too high. You're right, the liner should be higher than the top of the curb, but a 2x6 on top of the bottom plate (2x4) gives you about 7 in. Your rough curb should only be about 4 to 5 inches high.

Lynda
07-13-2001, 08:34 PM
John, You are right it is 7" high do you think this is going to be a problem? I thought the higher the threshold the better to keep the water in, since I'm only going to have a shower curtain in the opening. Also do you see a problem with me putting the whole liner in without cutting it and installing the cement board over it? Just fix the corners and away I go.
Thanks John.

John Bridge
07-14-2001, 07:32 AM
Yeah, there are problems.

First either lower the curb or add some more wood backing above what's going around the walls now. I would lower the curb.

Do not put the backer board over the pan material. The pan will cause the backer to bend inward toward the bottom of the shower. If you want to do that, you need to furr out the studs to make room for the material behind the backer.

Lynda, I'm a mud man. Rob, Harry, Bri or any of the others are better qualified than I am to tell you how to do a backer board shower from scratch.

Lynda
07-14-2001, 09:06 AM
Thanks John for the reply, I still don't understand why the curb has to be lowered. Ok Rob, Harry or Bri any ideas about this problem. Why can't the threshold be 7" high?
Do not put the backer board over the liner. Why not? thats what it shows in Michael Byrne's drawing.
Please help!

chip
07-14-2001, 09:30 AM
I think where John is coming from is that if the drain backed up and water rose to the top of the curb, it would also be at the top of the liner and could get into the wall cavity.

On the membrane under the board issue, your membrane is only 40mil so it shouldn't cause that big of problem except at the folds. There you might want to notch out the studs or shim the the studs. That is why the question came up earlier about the preformed corners.

Have fun.

Art

Rob Z
07-14-2001, 10:51 AM
Lynda

Sorry to leave you hanging, I've been busy the last couple days.

Did you get dam corner?

You can make that threshold as high as you want, as long as the rest of the liner goes up the walls higher than the curb. But, as John says, that 7 inch curb, with mud and tile on top (maybe another 1 1/2"), will seem kind of high. How much do you wan to step over? That will guide you to an answer of how high to make it. I'm 6' 2", so your curb wouldn't bother me a bit. But my wife is only 4' 11 1/2" , so for her it's a big step.

You do want to tuck all the pan material in as tightly as possible. You should either notch the studs or fur them all out with lattice to keep the cement board from bowing out. Coat the back of the cement board with thinset to fill inthe void caused by the lattice.

Use one of Bonsal's Proform curbs for your curb, unless you want to mud it. Don't nail cement board over the liner to form the curb.

The cement board needs to be above the mud for the shower floor by a 1/4" or so, with the gap filled with silicone caulk. If you run the cement board down into the mud, then you need to waterproof the surface and use a product like Nobleseal 150 to seal the bottom edge of the cement board. Otherwise, water will wick right up the cement board and ruin all your good work.

This is enough for now. Let us know if you have other questions.

Rob

Bud Cline
07-14-2001, 01:20 PM
I think 7" is way too high also. If your finish work takes you beyond that 7" then you will be higher than the average (normal) stair step. Believe it or not this will be a trip hazard going into the shower. It could also be a slip hazard coming out of the shower.

Humans are creatures of habit and the average person stepping over a 7"+ curb could easily misjudge thier movements and recieve an injury.

I try to hold my outside curb height to 5" above the shower exterior finished floor, this height goes unnoticed curtain or door.

Lynda
07-15-2001, 09:31 PM
Hello everyone, that liner was no piece of cake.
But after a few words I won't mention here it went in.
Finally the big test, filled the shower with water up to the threshold over night, and in the morning to my surprise not one drop was lost. I'm on to the next step I will be attaching the cement board all around, about 1/4" above the liner. If theres anything I missed so far please speak up now before its too late, thanks.

Rob Z
07-15-2001, 09:38 PM
Hi Lynda

Congrats, you just saved several hundred dollars that would have gone to a plumber. Did you use dam corners?

If you are going to run the cement board down to within 1/4" of the pan liner, what waterproofing material are you going to use on the cement board?

Rob

Lynda
07-15-2001, 09:43 PM
Hi Rob, yes I did use the dam corners that was the easy part. As for the cement board I'm going to use a waterproof silicone bead around the bottom edge. Is it okay to use the silicone to stick the membrane to the bottom flange of the drane?

Rob Z
07-15-2001, 09:53 PM
Hi Lynda

Great! The dam corners are very important.

Check out what I wrote at the end of page 4 about the bottom edge of the cement board. The silicone will be fine as long as the board isn't buried down inside the mud on the shower floor.

Silicone under the bottom flange of the drain?....That part is already clamped down by now. If you already used silicone, that's fine. If you didn't, dont take the drain back apart just to do so. You already passed the all important water test.

Let's talk tomorrow night.

Rob

racerettte
07-16-2001, 08:25 PM
rob......far be it for me to question your expertise, but when i read:

The cement board needs to be above the mud for the shower floor by a 1/4" or so, with the gap filled with silicone caulk. If you run the cement board down into the mud, then you need to waterproof the surface and use a product like Nobleseal 150 to seal the bottom edge of the cement board. Otherwise, water will wick right up the cement board and ruin all your good work.

i was really confused. (freaking out is more like it) i, too, have followed byrne's shower bed article and he says nothing about sealing the cement board edge or water creeping up it. and since my tiles are already set, i am unable to get to the board to seal anything, if need be. my tiles and cement board pretty much meet the floor just as they do in the pictures in his article. is there anything i can/should do before i mud the floor, etc.?

Rob Z
07-16-2001, 08:45 PM
Hi Daisey

Question away...that's what the forum is for.

Let me go and read Michael's article and see what he says. It's been a while since I read it.

I'll get back to you soon.

Rob

chip
07-16-2001, 08:51 PM
If you pre-sloped your mud bed, and I know you did, there is not a lot of concern for moisture wicking up the board.

If there is no pre-slope, that is when it is a problem.

Don't freak out kid, all is well.

Art

Rob Z
07-16-2001, 08:58 PM
Art

What's the current Utilicrete instructions RE cement board down into the mud in a shower pan. I thought that was one of the big changes in the last year in the industry-avoiding burying CBU's in the mud of the shower floor??

Rob

chip
07-16-2001, 09:03 PM
I not aware of any changes for CBU in showers.

Gyp. and glass matt boards have to stop, with a caulk joint to prevent wicking.

I have misplaced my 2001 handbook, but will pop in the CD and see if there is some changes. I'll be back.

Art

Rob Z
07-16-2001, 09:07 PM
Art

I just checked my 2001 ....Sure enough, B415-01 shows the board down in the mud. Maybe I saw something at the JLC convention in Baltimore that addressed this topic? Or the NTCA show here in Northern VA? Where is Dave Gobis?

Rob

chip
07-16-2001, 09:14 PM
Now who told you this, not that competitor of mine who has you buying milk by the truck load, is it.

Art

Lynda
07-16-2001, 09:37 PM
Hello guys, what is the verdict do I use the nobel sealant 150 at the bottom edge of the cement board or not?
If I should use it can Bri please tell me what the Canadian equivalent is. Up in these woods no one has heard of it.

Bud Cline
07-16-2001, 09:43 PM
Everyone agrees that the tile and grout will eventually leak thru to the cement, and the cement will leak thru to the sloped liner, and the leak will find its way along the sloped liner and into the weeps, and thats the end of the story.

Then whats the big deal with the cement board being buried in the top cast of concrete? True cement board may wick some water but not very much. If the floor slope of the top cast is sufficient the water will get away from the walls immediately. Get the water out of there and there will be little remaining to go anywhere but down the drain to begin with.

racerettte
07-16-2001, 09:46 PM
HUH?...



O.I.C, said the blind man.

Thanks, Guys!

Lynda
07-16-2001, 10:00 PM
It's final then , I'm going on to the next step installing the cement board walls 1/4" above the liner.

racerettte
07-16-2001, 10:08 PM
Linda, what'd you make of all that? Does "final" to you mean you're gonna seal the gap or leave it? I took it as leave it.

Bud Cline
07-16-2001, 10:14 PM
I'm sorry Daisey, that wasn't meant for your ears, eyes, whatever.

Just forget it dear, it's all very scientific criteria intended for professionals eyes only.

Rob Z
07-16-2001, 10:17 PM
Daisey and Lynda

Sorry to have caused you such confusion. You won't be doing anything wrong to do what I described. It may be overkill, but not detrimental to your installation. These are things that we argue about among ourselves, as well as the product reps that we meet at the tile stores or other industry types we see at trade shows.

I've tried to give good info and explanations to the DIY'ers without dragging them into boring debates among the "characters" on the Pro side. I may have goofed on this one.

Now I just have to figure out where I heard this bit of info...

Rob

Lynda
07-17-2001, 08:03 AM
Hi Rob, you don't have to be sorry I'd rather you are safe than me being sorry later. I did exactly what you said, used silicone!(Noble adhesive 150 hard to find) Now I can sleep knowing the job is done a little bit better. And after all whats a few more $ at this point. Please keep the good advise coming.

Rob Z
07-17-2001, 05:11 PM
Hi Lynda

Good job so far. I agree, better safe than sorry. I don't like to tear out work I've done.

I'm going to post something related to this over on the other side. Check it out if you're interested.

Rob

John Bridge
07-17-2001, 06:27 PM
I'm kinda curious as to what "last page" means. Sounds kinda final, doesn't it? Wonder if it's just an idle threat.

Rob Z
07-17-2001, 07:03 PM
John

I honestly thought that was something you put in there to put a stop to things.

Rob

flatfloor
07-18-2001, 03:04 PM
Waht are those marks, and Bud, did you notice she got a T shirt?

Bud Cline
07-18-2001, 04:58 PM
"WHO got a t-shirt"? I thought I was the only one that got a t-shirt!

Lynda
07-18-2001, 09:00 PM
Hi guys, Today I layed the final layer of mud over the liner. I sloped it like a pro, I think I found a new profession it looks like I'm quiting my day job. Now I'm ready for the final step, by the way I am taking pictures along the way that I will send to John when I get them developed. I hope they come out ok, maybe I should have bought a digital camera with the money that I saved doing the job. My question regarding the tiles is, should I lay lath over the mud and then the thinset mortar? If so then
why does Michael Byrne say "The finished height of the mortar bed should position the floor tile 1/16 to 1/8 inch above the top of the drain, and 1/8 to 1/4 inch below the bottom edge of the wall tile." This seems too high above the drain.

By the way John I'll send you my address so you can send me the T-shirt (he he he).

John Bridge
07-19-2001, 03:34 PM
[Hey Patti, This tee shirt thing that Bud started might work into a profit. You know, we send a few freebies out to these people, and then we start selling them. I've got a great idea for something to print on the back of the shirts: "I got laid at John's Advice Board." Er, uh, I mean, "My TILE got laid at John's Advice Board." C'mon Patti, quit hitting. You know what I meant.]

Lynda,

As long as you have a decent overall slope to the floor, you'll be okay.

diane_holmes
07-19-2001, 04:56 PM
Lynda,

Just read through all your notes! Will you come to Texas next? I've decided to hire out the shower and run a B&B for those willing to accept the mission.

Cinnamon rolls...... Come and get it.....

Besides, anyone who can work 'sperm' into a conversation gracefully is all right.

Best,

Diane

Rob Z
07-19-2001, 08:14 PM
Diane

You're right, Lynda made me chuckle with her comment about the geezer at the plumbing supply house.

Cinnamon rolls, huh??? Yummmmy! Do you serve coffee with those things?

Lynda

I've been thinking about your question regarding the tile 1/8" above the drain. If that's the way to do it, I've been wrong for a while now. I'd prefer to have the tile flush so there is no unprotected edge of tile exposed. I try to make my cuts around the drain nice and smooth ( I use a belt sander) so that the grout fills in the concentric gap around the drain.

In either case, I think you're doing a great job. We are waiting for your pictures.

Rob

Bud Cline
07-19-2001, 09:35 PM
John,

If you had a diamond cup you could throw that belt sander away and never buy another belt. I think I have used my current cup grinder for about six years now.

Lynda
07-19-2001, 09:46 PM
This question is for the tile guys. Do I have to lay the lath under the tile or can I lay the tile right on the mud?
To Diane, how did you know the cinnamon rolls were my favorite? Keep the cinnamon rolls and coffee warm, I'm on my way.
To John, I received my t-shirt today (wink,wink) and it looks great. I especially like the saying on it. "The first to get the last page into the Twilight Zone".

Rob Z
07-19-2001, 09:58 PM
Lynda

I'm confused by your lath question. Are you asking about using reinforcement in the middle of the mud bed ?

Rob

Lynda
07-19-2001, 10:43 PM
Rob,

I'm gonna lay tile on the floor next, Should I put down reinforcement before the tile? or is it not necessary.

Rob Z
07-20-2001, 06:02 AM
Hi Lynda

You've got the pan liner in. You've installed the cement board on the walls and floated the mud on the shower floor.

The floor tile in the shower goes right on the mud. I don't know of any instance where it's appropriate to set tile over lath.

Are you using 2 x 2's on the floor of the shower?

Rob

Lynda
07-20-2001, 10:32 PM
Thanks Rob you answered my question. Yes it is 2X2.

Rob Z
07-21-2001, 07:08 AM
Lynda

Great! I should clarify 2 x2's...measured in inches. Aren't you Canadians doing the metric thing up there?

Rob

Jason_Butler
07-21-2001, 08:30 PM
Hi all,

Just a question for the tile guys. I was in my local HD yesterday picking up some supplies and noticed a confusing display.

The display was intended to show the various steps/layers of a custom shower pan. The floor was depicted as plywood, the liner was shown ( but not available from HD), and then a CBU was shown atop the liner as the tile substrate. I recall from previous threads and mfg specs that CBU's should not be used on shower floors.

Pls clarify this . Is the display correct?


Jason

Harry
07-22-2001, 06:59 AM
Jason .... you're teasing us right?
Not even a remote possibility that Home Depot is correct.
Ask the .... *ahem*... person who displayed this procedure how the cbu was fastened over the liner. It sounds as though the Home Depot staff have their tools belts on too tight, I thought I heard it all ....

Harry

Rob Z
07-22-2001, 07:06 AM
It's possible that the HD "expert" got this idea from Bob Vila. I saw a Bob Vila episode where the tile setter troweled out fat mud over the liner and scored diagonals on the back side of a piece of cement board. He then pressed the cement board down into the mud, tamped it in, and set tile on it.

UFB.

Rob

John Bridge
07-22-2001, 08:36 AM
Well, Bob Vila is hooked up with Sears. Do you suppose Sears is buying out Home Depot?

There is no way, Jason.

HD does sell Oatey drains and pan liners here.

Lynda
07-22-2001, 08:51 PM
Well I did it my first mistake, I layed down the mosaic tile on the floor. I used "AcrylPro ceramic tile mastic".
I was told by one of the tile stores that was not the right stuff to use. If that is true then are there any ways I can correct the problem?

Rob Z
07-22-2001, 08:56 PM
Hi Lynda

Ugh! The mastic won't hold up long on a wet shower floor. epending on the coverage under the tiles, you may be able to tediously pry them up. If they are really stuck down, it may be faster to break out the tile and mud, and just redo the mud floor again.

Use a good modified thinset for the next go around. Custom's Versa bond is a good, easy to mix thinset sold at HD.

Rob

Rob Z
07-22-2001, 08:59 PM
Lynda

Now that I think of it, prying up the tiles may not do you much good because the skim of mastic left on the floor may affect the bond of the thinset on the next go around.

Rob

Lynda
07-22-2001, 09:02 PM
Rob, Please tell me theres anotherway, Please. I mean how would I get the mud off?

Rob Z
07-22-2001, 09:06 PM
Hi Lynda

You can break out the mud with a cold chisel and a hammer. Careful not to puncture the pan liner. Once you get it started it comes out somewhat easily.

I don't know what to say about another way. Mastic just won't cut it on a shower floor.

Maybe someone else will have an idea.

Rob

Bri
07-22-2001, 09:14 PM
Hi
Once you get the tile off...wet the floor...the mastic will come loose, and then you can scrape off most of it. It may take a while to soften the mastic..but it;s easier than removing the mud floor.

Brian

Lynda
07-22-2001, 09:17 PM
The only reason I bought the mastic is because right on the back of it and I quote "Bonding ceramic or mosaic tiles on interior floors" it says Extended water resistance.
I think what I will do is leave it like that and as they come off I will replace them using the right bond.
I don't think I can destroy what I put down.
Thanks Rob.

Rob Z
07-22-2001, 09:24 PM
Hi Lynda

I keep forgeting that what I would do is no the same as what a DIY'er may do. I warranty my work, and like to keep my track record intact on call backs.

The water resistance thing is for tile set on walls in showers. And, seperately, they are saying that tile on interior floors (non wet) is okay with that product.

What brand is this? I'd like to read their label to see if they are confusing people with their directions.

As far as I know, there is no mastic product made that is suitable for use on wet floors.

Rob

Bud Cline
07-22-2001, 09:31 PM
Whoah! Hold everything. I would attempt wire brushing the mastic before wrecking the mud bed. If a hand brush is too labor intensive then a mandrel mounted wire brush can be found at hardware stores and HD's that will fit into a drill chuck. More power baby!

Wrecking the mud bed at this point runs the risk of damaging the pan. Everyone agrees that mastic can again soften when exposed to water so water that sucker and wirebrush it. Just don't get electricuted in the process.

Lynda
07-22-2001, 09:31 PM
Rob, It's called "AcrylPro" and it is very very very very (oops my keyboard is stuck) confusing.

Bri
07-22-2001, 09:35 PM
Actually, Acryl-Pro is good stuff(costs a fortune)but it's not for shower floors. I wouldn't leave it in...it may come up easier than you think.

Rob Z
07-22-2001, 09:40 PM
My thinking on the removal of the mud bed was this: mastics dissolves in water, thinset won't stick well to mastic residue, and if it does, the mastic will loosen anyway with the thiset stuck to it. Trying to chisel off the upper layer of mastic impregnated mud is more tedious and time consuming than trying to just float a new floor. Plus, the confidence of knowing that you don't have to worry about it if you spend a couple hours to redo it.

Okay, here is what my Custom notebook says about AcrylPro mastic (type 1):

Areas of use......wet areas with intermittent water exposure such as tub surrounds, shower walls, and countertops

etc etc

Unacceptable areas of use....steam rooms, shower floors or areas subjct to prolonged water exposure or for underwater applications

etc etc

Bri
07-22-2001, 09:49 PM
Depending on how smooth the mud bud was..it may peel off completely clean..besides the mud bed will be hard to remove with all that rebar!(just a joke between Rob and I)...plus busting out the mudbed could damage more than the liner..could damage the drain and the surrounding wall.

Brian

Lynda
07-22-2001, 09:49 PM
Ok how about this, take the tiles off scrape as much of the mastic off as posible then lay a thin layer of mud or cement or whatever will cover the mastic. After that a thin layer of the right thinset for the tiles. Also I don't have much room to play with by the drain.

Bri
07-22-2001, 09:56 PM
Sorry Lynda...most of the mastic won't do...you'll have to get all of it..any residue will cause the thin set bond to fail if it gets wet...but your idea is a good one.

Lynda
07-22-2001, 09:59 PM
Hey Bri, I meant I would first cover the mastic with cement and then put the thinset on top of that.

Bri
07-22-2001, 10:02 PM
Doesnt matter...if the shower leaks in the future, the cement will come loose and take the thinset and tile with it..I think the first step is to see how clean you can get it. Where in Ontario are you?

Lynda
07-22-2001, 10:04 PM
Northend of Toronto.

Bri
07-22-2001, 10:11 PM
Too far away for me..or I'd come and look at it.

Lynda
07-22-2001, 10:14 PM
Thanks Bri, thats very kind of you.
Ok how about this what if I soak the floor over night and no tiles come up. Then maybe then it would be ok. If not then I will try to take them all off

Bri
07-22-2001, 10:23 PM
I think it would take longer than over night to loosen the tile...you may have to use the shower for a couple of weeks before they come loose...I guess you could wait until they fall out before you change them..but then you risk damaging the rest of the shower from water wicking up the walls from the water that has soaked into the mud bed. Where did Rob go?

Lynda
07-22-2001, 10:42 PM
OK I guess I'll take them off.
Thanks guys.

Bud Cline
07-22-2001, 11:01 PM
Lynda,

I can appreciate your wanting what you have done to work, but it won't last over time. Now's the time to fix it.

Grout joints and mud beds naturally wick and weep over time, that's why that liner is there to begin with, the mastic or any of its residue will undue your shower floor in time.

Try to remove as much of the mastic as you possibly can and see what you have. Personally I think it can be done.

I would use a stiff 3 inch scraper and a hammer to get under the tile and remove it. If you were to let it sit under water for a day you might even salvage the tile in tact.

John Bridge
07-23-2001, 10:19 AM
Yeah, I think you can get all the mastic off. You might have to gouge off a little of the mud surface, but that's okay. It'll fill in with thin set.

I know it's not funny, but in all these converstions not a one of us ever thought you might use mastic. We'll be more careful in the future.

Lynda
07-23-2001, 09:24 PM
Everyone was right, the tiles and mastic came off very easy.
In case someone else does the same thing don't worry, just soak over night and scrape tile and mastic right off.
I used a paint scraper and wire barbeque brush.
Back on track and ready to go again.
I do have two questions, does the wall tile go on top of the floor tile or vice versa?
What would be better to use around the bottom edge of the wall tiles that meet the floor, silicone or grout?
Opps make that three questions, I'm using "Flextile Duoflex 90 multipurpose" for the wall tiles. Does it matter if I coat both the wall and tile?

Bri
07-23-2001, 09:57 PM
Lynda
What are you using for adhesive to re-attach the mosaic on the mud bed? Thin set I hope..Flextile Duoflex 90 multipurpose is Mastic..just like the Acryl-Pro you just removed from the floor. If you haven't done the wall tile yet, then take the Flextile Duoflex 90 multipurpose back to Olympia and replace it with Flextile 52 white thin set..it's more difficult to work with...but you can use it on both the floor and walls, and it won't fail if it gets wet. Yes..wall tile to floor tile...silicone all joints when everything is dry.

Lynda
07-23-2001, 10:27 PM
Oh no not again, I already used it on half the shower.
I tried Home depot they messed me up, I try going to a big company like Olympia and they do the same thing.
I'm gonna go back and give them hell. I'll get what you said Bri thanks.

Bri
07-23-2001, 10:30 PM
How much of the walls have you done?

Rob Z
07-23-2001, 10:34 PM
Lynda

You're gonna make it through this! Don't listen to what the "experts" at the home centers tell you. Get what Bri has mentioned. Make sure it says stuff on the bag about mixing, slaking, curing time, and portland cement. These are all clues that you have a thinset mortar.

Avoid anything that says "convenient", "adhesive", "petroleum based",
or "pre mixed".

Rob

Lynda
07-23-2001, 10:37 PM
I have two full size walls,36" wide, and two half walls,19" wide. I did one full size wall and one half wall top to 9" above the bottom. By the way Bri, what would the brand name be from HD? It's closer to me.

Lynda
07-23-2001, 10:47 PM
How about this, what if I use mastic for the wall down to the 9" above the floor and then use the thinset for the floor and the remaining 9" on the wall, since mastic is easier to use and I'm not a pro like you guys.

Bri
07-23-2001, 10:51 PM
Ok...leave the tile you have installed already..it'll be ok...just make sure you let it dry a couple of days before you grout it...I'm tempted to say finish the rest of the shower with it..What do you think Rob?..I'd use the thinset on the last 9" to the floor though..and on the floor. Home depot? Versabond white thin set mortar.

Lynda
07-23-2001, 11:03 PM
Thanks Bri, Thats what I will do.
By the way how long does thin set have to dry before I can put the grout?

Bri
07-23-2001, 11:07 PM
Next day is fine...just make sure you let that mastic dry really well before you grout it(good grief, if John see's this I'm a dead man)

[John was here]

[Edited by John Bridge on 07-24-2001 at 07:25 PM]

Rob Z
07-24-2001, 06:27 AM
Lynda and Bri

Lynda-don't worry about what you have done already...and use the Versabond to set the tile on the floor and the lower part that's left to do.

The lower foot or so is what takes much of the abuse from the water.

Rob

Lynda
07-25-2001, 09:57 PM
Wow that thin set was not easy to use but I finally finished tiling. Now It's time for the grout, I think I'll use white. Should I use unsanded or sanded?

Bud Cline
07-25-2001, 11:01 PM
I'm lost after ten pages, if you used 2X2 mosaics either grout will work but the unsanded will shrink a lot, I always used sanded but keep in mind the "look" will be a little more coarse.

John Bridge
07-26-2001, 06:09 AM
Sanded helps grip the feet when the floor is wet and soapy.

Lynda
07-26-2001, 06:38 AM
Ok sand for the floor, how about the wall tile sand or unsand?

Bud Cline
07-26-2001, 07:45 AM
Walls? What size tile, what is the spacing between the tiles?

Lynda
07-26-2001, 11:07 PM
Just to keep you up to date, It's really starting to come together. I mean it looks nice. I can't wait to get the pictures developed so you can all see what a good job you did helping me. Bud, the size of the wall tile is 8 X 10. The spacing between the tiles is 1/8".

Bud Cline
07-26-2001, 11:55 PM
Lynda,

Keeping in mind sanded grout is a slightly different look than unsanded, obviously you see the sand in sanded, you could use unsanded but it will sink (shrink) a little in joints that size. The less water you use (the thicker the grout) with unsanded the less it will shrink.

Personally I'd use sanded grout and not have it to worry about.

Kinda anxious to see some flicks now.

Rob Z
07-27-2001, 06:59 AM
Hi Lynda

I would use sanded as well.

Rob

Bri
07-27-2001, 04:35 PM
At the risk of getting in trouble(again)...sanded grout on wall tile looks like crap...use unsanded...1/8 is not to big a joint for unsanded wall tile.

John Bridge
07-27-2001, 04:45 PM
No trouble, buddy. I'm goin' with you. I think the tiles Lynda is talking about are 8x10 wall tiles, and usually they go very close together, and usually they are made from slip like four-and-a-quarters. Unsanded will work fine.

Rob Z
07-27-2001, 06:05 PM
Lynda

There you have it...John and Bri at odds with Bud and me on the grout thing. There is no "right" answer. Whichever you choose will be fine.

Let us know what you're doing next.

Rob

Bri
07-27-2001, 06:16 PM
Rob
If you and Bud were "all knowing and omnipotent" Like John and I, you would see the light and realize that sanded grout looks rough and draps dirt and soap scum..and is a bear to clean. A.K.A.O rule number 1. Wall grout for wall tile...floor grout for floor tile..(in most cases..depending on joint size of course)

Besides, if the wall tile was black..or some other dark colour, the silica in the floor grout would scratch the soft glaze..(i know..i've done it)

Bri

Bud Cline
07-27-2001, 06:18 PM
145 posts on this thread and still no shower. Now we argue over which grout to use, that topic alone calls for another 50 posts.

Bud Cline
07-27-2001, 06:29 PM
I guess I thought we were talking about which grout to use on the floor tile!!!

Bri
07-27-2001, 06:33 PM
Ahh..so it's 3 to one.....or maybe Rob did too...maybe we're all A.K.A.O?

Bud Cline
07-27-2001, 09:15 PM
Yeah hell, we don't have near enough posts to qualify for a wall conversation yet. We're still on the floor.

Lynda
07-27-2001, 11:43 PM
OK,OK boys thats enough, lets get back on track now. I think I'll use the unsanded because the surface is shiny and I don't want to scratch it. Is it a good idea to use a sealant on the grout or is it a waste of time?
Thanks guys

Lynda
08-10-2001, 09:42 PM
Hi everyone, I was enjoying the shower so much I forgot about the pictures. I will now scan the pictures and send them to john by email so you can all see them. I'm really glad I went ahead with this project. By the way should I put a sealer on the grout? Is it needed?
Thanks again for all the help.

Rob Z
08-10-2001, 10:00 PM
Hi Lynda

Can't wait to see the pics.

Yes, a grout sealer is a good idea. I use Aqua Mix Sealers Chioce 15. Some of the other guys can recommend their favorites, as well.

Rob

John Bridge
08-11-2001, 01:53 PM
I've been scanning my inbox for the scans. Haven't seen any yet.

John Bridge
08-14-2001, 03:09 PM
Hi Lynda,

Got the pics in the second email. I scaled a couple of them down so they will load faster. You can find a directory called "linda" at http://www.johnbridge.com/lynda

The shower looks great. Very nice work.

John

Rob Z
08-14-2001, 03:55 PM
Yayyy Lynda!!!

Bud Cline
08-14-2001, 08:06 PM
Nice looking job Lynda. I'm curious about the tub fill spout in the "before" picture though. What's the story on that?

Lynda
08-14-2001, 10:37 PM
Hi Bud, I'm not sure it was there when I moved in.
Maybe its for washing your feet.

John Bridge
08-15-2001, 06:02 AM
The tub spout is called a "toe tester." You stick your toe under the running water to check the temp before you jump in the shower (yeah, right). We usually eliminate them when we re-do showers around here.