Illegal immigration and tile setting jobs.

[alienofwar]

Hello again everyone.

I watched a CNN Special programme on illegal immigration and it frightened me a bit concerning my prospects for employment in the tile setting industry. In paticular the piece in which contractors were hiring these illegals because they worked for low wages as little as $6-$9 an hour. Now I have skills in the tile industry but they are not complete and Im just wondering from everyones experience here what impact illegal immigrants have on your lives and would have on someone such as myself which is looking to enter the tile setting industry in the next few months. Im looking to work in Reno and I hear they have a high illegal immigrant population. Thanks for reading my post:)

Jeremy

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[Davestone]

Somebody else is waking up, huh, i've been complaining for years,but people don't seem concerned until it reaches them on a personal level,but it's coming.Everyone knows about Fl. wages and problems, and most of them are because of an influx of cheap labor,and the unwillingness of a government to do anything about it,and the other half ,bleeding heart liberals trying to stop or undermine any attempt to halt it.So you do like i did and concentrate on the most intricate work, that most people aren't capable of doing, and find a nitche,where you stand out among the crowd. I am working harder for basically the same money i made years ago,for regular work,it's only in the high end range that i can make what i consider decent money. I'm honest, fast,and reliable, and pretty good, so i've got ninety percent beat around here right out of the gate.I recommend you do the same,cause no matter who gets elected, it ain't gonna change. :)

[Shaughnn]

There will always be people who are willing to do more mork for less money. It's not smart business but it puts gas in the truck and a bag of burgers in the passenger seat. Here in the San Francisco area, we've long complained about the cheap labor coming out from the Central Valley. It's a 2 hour commute and there is no end to the workers living there who flood our area and drive down bids. We also have our problems with undocumented immigrant labor, but I'm less critical of that as I can't see an alternative as long as we allow the standard of living South of our border to be so much less than our own.
Dave's got a very good point about distinguishing yourself from the rest. But I think it's also a reasonable tactic to diminish the advantage the "illegal" workers have by making every effort to force them to play by ALL the rules.
Is it unethical to inform the authorities if you discover your competition does not fullfill their legal obligations? Is it unethical for you to notify OSHA when unsafe practices are being adopted by your competition to cut costs? I don't know? But if bids are being held down because no one else is playing by the rules, then something probably has to change.
In my union, there are people whom I have suspected of not being legally documented workers. I don't care enogh to look into it though because we have a hard time already filling those positions and they make a very good wage with benefits. They are actually *preserving* higher wages and contributing to society by paying income taxes and paying into Social Security. I don't think it's as much a problem of the "undocumented" workers driving down prices as it is criminal employers capitalizing on a plentiful labor pool without consequence.
But that's just an opinion,
Shaughnn

[Bill Vincent]

I agree with Dave-- when I lived in Homestead, there was a crew of cubans running around down there doing installs-- labor AND materials for .99 a foot. It was rumored that some rich Cuban in Miami was bankrolling the whole thing, bought a couple of train car loads of tile and had a crew of about 7-8 guys holed up in a condo, giving them free room and board, and paying them 50.00 a day. These guys were knocking out a house a day, and you could go through a subdivision and tell which houses they did, but these people got their tile installed CHEAP, and after Andrew, that's all they cared about.

[LadyGodiva]

There are builders and contractors who don't really care about quality as much as they do profits. I've heard of the same thing happening in Oklahoma, and these people are not being paid anything near $6/hour. They are being used, and though they may be illegal, it's not right. Even the ones that are legal are being used because they don't speak English. It's human nature I suppose.

[Bill Vincent]

Well, not to sound like an isolationist, but the last thing I would want to do is give illegals more incentive to come across by seeing that they get competitive wages (especially when you realise that they don't even pay FIT, SIT, FICA, etc.). However, on the flipside of that coin, they drive down the price of our work, making it next to impossible to do a good quality installation and still remain competitive. So, we end up in a niche, working for those who have already been burned, or know someone who's already been burned by a cheap installation, trying to save money.

[LadyGodiva]

Bill, I understand where you're coming from but our own American contractors and builders are greedy enough to encourage this practice. I don't think it's right, but I'm also concerned about the abuse as well. If we didn't have greedy people out there looking for cheap labour, you wouldn't be having these problems. It's not only the illegal alien's fault.

[Shaughnn]

Bill,
If they are getting paid "above the board" then they are paying into the system as much as anyone else is. In fact, if they are using a fake or assumed SSN, then they are paying MORE into the system because they will never recover the monies which have been paid by their employers into those accounts. Not saying it's "right" but I don't think that "they aren't paying their fair share" is a legitimate arguement when talking about paycheck employees. The cash-employees however are an entirely different animal.
Shaughnn

[Bill Vincent]

I'd be shocked to find out that someone doing this kind of work for 50.00 a day is getting paid over the table, as is the case with most of the illegals working in construction, no matter what the trade.

LG-- Point taken. :)

[John K]

Well,

In this part of the country not only are they taking over. One of the cities built a special area for them to stand just so they wouldn't be blocking the neighborhood gas station. If they all got deported our economy would shut down. Now when the next big housing recesstion hits you will then see a mass sweep from I.N.S.

On another note. If you want one with skill, your going to pay at least 100.00 a day. And if they start to learn english look out, they become cocky and think that your working for them. :)

[muskymike]

Glad we don't have that problem up here, it must be too cold for them. :sick:

[alienofwar]

Great.....I was hoping to hear better news concerning this issue, yikes. Now Im starting to wonder if I should leave Billings, MT or not, lol. In Canada we never had these concerns with foreign labour driving down costs because we dont border any third world countries, just you guys. Its incredible this is happening in the states, if anything I thought you guys would be strict on illegal immigration but now I see that bussiness is more important than to uphold the law. Im a bit worried considering Im in the tile bussiness and Ill bet in Mexico they lay alot of tiles...so I imagine alot of these illegals have experience in this department and would compete at much lower prices.

I hope President Bush gets re-elected, give them those working visas for those who have been here awhile and then just sweep the rest back into South and Central America...but then again John Kerry said he would fine the bussinesses who hire these people...lol, but does anyone seriously think he would do that? It didn't happen under Clinton, in fact fines against bussinesses that hired illegals have been on the decrease...so I dont think anyone cares. As long as there is people willing to hire they will keep coming. The question is who is getting hurt in the long term as a result of this. President Bush said that he would give the illegals work visas as long as there isn't an american willing to take the job...but who in their right mind would want a job that pays less than $6 an hour? One thing he didn't address. Gosh, I wish I could hear more positive news from you guys, this is depressing me, lol.

Jeremy

[Bill Vincent]

Now when the next big housing recesstion hits you will then see a mass sweep from I.N.S.

I actually saw that happen in 1991, just after my family's company shut down. I was working my very first subcontract, doing tubs in a condo complex just outside of Hartford, Connecticut, and this one day I was working and heard a commotion outside, so I looked to see what was happening and I saw what looked like a mass exodus from the jobsite-- everyone running just as fast as they could. I was wondering if something was about to blow up or something, and got ready to head out the door, as well, and then saw a couple of guys with INS jackets on, running after a few of them, and that kind of explained it.

[branty1uk]

Its bad here too. Because we are part of the E.U. the new countries in it such as Poland, means we're geeting an influx of ppl who come here work for £5 per sq meter ($1 a sq ft), then 12 of then share a house work 12 hours a day 7 days a week, send half the money home. The problem here is that they are here legally now. :bang:

[Bill Vincent]

Now THAT sucks. Atleast here, all it takes is a call to INS if you find em working.

[oma]

Branty- does being a member of the EU automatically mean that your borders are open to citizens of other EU member countries? We have enough of our own crap over here for me to really keep up with international politics regarding immigration.
The illegal problem here is persistent in the entire Southern half of the US, and is still migrating Northward. Our politicians don't have the guts to deal effectively with the problem, but it has definitely cut in on the work market for minimally educated (primarily) young men here. In the housing industry, it seems you usually see one or two Americans supervising a crew of legal and/or illegal aliens, many of which are sending their cash back across the border via Western Union every Friday afternoon. I don't think it's the contractors and builders who are capitalizing on illegal workers, but the subcontractors who hire them. The one thing I will say for immigrant workers, though, is that they will work their a**es off for their living, while many of our young generation think that physical labor is somehow beneath them.

[branty1uk]

Then you have to ask yourself, would you do the same in there situation?? :uhh:

[branty1uk]

. The one thing I will say for immigrant workers, though, is that they will work their a**es off for their living, while many of our young generation think that physical labor is somehow beneath them.
True, I never met a lazy Pole, well one but he was the expeption.

[oma]

Well, actually, no, I don't have to ask myself that question. I don't work in a field where I have to hire anyone, and I prefer to work alone. That being said, looking out for #1 is in the nature of most humans at this point in evolution.

[Bill Vincent]

The illegal problem here is persistent in the entire Southern half of the US, and is still migrating Northward.
Oma-- I agree that the problem is more prevalent in the south, but the incident I was talking about-- where a WHOLE JOB SITE-- I mean a couple hundred workers in all trades-- EMPTIED OUT-- was just outside of Hartford, Connecticut, and that was 13 years ago.

[LadyGodiva]

Oma you're right. A lot of young people today think that learning a trade is beneath them. They'd rather get a degree and work in the mall! Many illegal or legal immigrants are willing to work at any job to make some money. I was even asked to help a contractor out by translating for him on a job. His workers were made up of 90% Hispanics. I have no idea whether he hired legal or illegal and I wasn't asking.

[oma]

Wow. Were they Mexican immigrant workers? I'm really quite surprised that at that time, you guys had that much of a problem with illegals.

[LadyGodiva]

The majority of Hispanics (as far as I know) are from Mexico, but there were some from Peru and Boliva as well. I'm not a native Spanish speaker, but I studied at the university and also lived in Mexico for a year. In general, I like being around the Mexicans though. Most of them are humble and hard working.
The thing that bothers me most is seeing people taking advantage of an illegal or legal immigrant. But I guess that's the chance you take by coming into this country illegally, or not having enough education coupled with no English language skills. It's tough, but there are a lot of companies and people out there who love this situation....cheap labour :bang:

[Davy]

They are everywhere down here, doing every trade. When I go to Dal tile or any other tile shop, I'm the only paleface.

[alygal]

I worked for a time in the personnel office of an aluminum smelter (now defunct) and found that many of our workers were illegals from Mexico. I'm up in the Pacific NW. They would use false SS #s. Eventually the law would catch up with them and deport them. More alarming was the fact that several were hard criminals...not just as illegals. I wouldn't give those guys the time of day.

Jeremy, I lived in the UK prior to EEC and as a yank I had to show up at the Home Office in Croyden every 3 months to prove I was not a burden to the Crown. I had to provide my gran's home address and show she had means to support me during my stay there, else I was sent back to the States.

[Scooter]

God, I hate to agree with Bill (we disagree on so much) but alas I must on this issuue.

Studies have shown that while yes, Illegal Imigrants do contribute to the economy, they are a net loss.

[e3]

Sounds Like A Good Pitch For The Unions!!!

[Bill Vincent]

You won't hear a union pitch from me, Eric-- That's going from the ridiculous to the sublime.

[madmax]

The one thing I will say for immigrant workers, though, is that they will work their a**es off for their living, while many of our young generation think that physical labor is somehow beneath them.


WRONG. The main reason this generation isn't going after blue coller jobs is because the pay scale is low. If you are going to work your ass off it might as well be in a job that pays a lot of money. Competing with a bunch of illegal aliens that make $5/hour isn't something to brag about.

[alienofwar]

Well, apparently in Reno I was told that the INS is working with the local law enforcement and they are very strict on illegals there...the guy told me not to worry about competing with cheap labour as they make arrests all the time. Geez, I hope hes right. I read also that local law enforcment are catching alot of Illegals in gangs too, apprerently there are 2 hispanic gangs there, but they know who everyone is.

I dont think its much of a big deal when it comes to low wage jobs which nobody wants, but is a big deal when it comes to construction jobs which families in the U.S live on and which young people as myself want to learn in. I think there should be strict enforcement in this area for sure.

Jeremy

[Steven Hauser]

Hey Y'all,

I don't know if Max thinks this is a good thing or not but...... I agree with him.

I know of plenty of hard working young people who will and can go step for step with the illegal alien perception.

The trouble is it won't be for the low pay and no chance of improvement that most companies you cite offer.

I've got several of these young people working for me. They are generally great but I pay health insurance, offer savings programs, teach them the trades, and pay on a scale equivalent to the local manufacturers in the area. That is a range from a low new employee at $10.00/hour to an average of $24.50/hour.

We also are an EEOC based company, we hire immigrants as long as they have a work visa.

Anyone else who does less harms the future of their particular industry.

[Bill Vincent]

Max-- gimme a fer instance?

Personally I agree with Oma in that respect. I've had more apprentices quit because they figure that once the can square off a room and use a cutter that they should be entitled to full scale. My soon to be ex partner is a perfect example. He's been in the trade about 6 years, and what he knows, he's good at, but he's got a long way to go before he can be called a mechanic. I'll give you a perfect example. 2 weeks ago, the crew went down to Connecticut to do a Wendys in Rocky Hill, and my son went down as a helper. There's also what I would call a fully qualified mechanic on the crew, and while they were down there, my son was telling me about a conversation that this mechanic and my partner were having. The mechanic asked him if he was any good with mud, and he said that he's not too bad at it, but it's the leveling part he has a hard time with. The conversation ended right there. Not only that but I guess he found out pretty quickly that it's not as easy as it seems to run the job by himself, but he thinks he deserves the big money. I've always said that the thing that distinguishes an installer from a mechanic is being able to take any problem you run into and solve it so as to be able to complete the installation successfully.

The point to all this rambling is that kids coming into the trades are expecting big money right off the bat, or soon there after, and it's not going to happen. When they realise it, they get discouraged and throw in the towel, which is sad.

[alienofwar]

Heck, Im 23 and Im willing to work almost 12 hours a day if wanted, I did that in Canada when I was sub-contracting on my own....and I tell you, not all young people are lazy. And if so many young people are lazy these days, then our society is in big trouble, the life we enjoy is what we are taking for granted these days and then no wonder we see illegals taking jobs away from younger kids.

Jeremy

[alienofwar]

I totally agree with you Bill. Learning the trade is the reward in itself, thats for sure...even if it means working for $8 an hour.

Jeremy

[oma]

I wasn't implying that all young people in this country are lazy, but many of our younger generation have been overindulged by parents who, for whatever reason, feel guilty if their children don't have the best of everything. If you go down to the local high school here, many of the kids are driving brand new cars and trucks that their parent provide, and wear the high-dollar latest style clothes that mom and dad insist on letting them have. Most of these kids haven't worked a day of their lives, and aren't really interested in doing it anytime soon. The high school drop out rate in this country is climbing, which leaves a large number of unskilled and uneducated young people who suddenly find themselves unprepared for survival in the real world. With a high number of immigrants willing and able to work long hard hours, our own kids end up flipping burgers or working at Walmart where there is almost no chance of advancement or long-term job security. At least if you have a marketable trade in the building or related industries, you can improve and perfect your skills making you more valued in the job market.

[Davestone]

Oma, i agree,and i'm sure every pro here has had their fill of babysitting, and sobering up lazy American helpers.I went 3 years with trying a new helper every 2 weeks, till i gave up and worked by myself. I then had a Mexican who i didn.t know was 15 years older than me,who worked steady every day,and never complained once,only had one speed, but worked steady.I paid him well,that,s the way i am,if anything i'm fair,he was the highest paid helper at the company,but work got slow and we had to part,now i have my son and one other American kid,well, kid,he's 23,and works pretty good,without a hangover,but i got lucky this time and didn't have to weed through 20 guys to find one, that didn't think i was abusing him by wanting him to work 40 hours!I tell people complaining,look over there at the Mexicans on that roof,see them complaining? no they're glad to have the opportunity to work,if you don't want to work, go home and sit on your ass,or get a lawsuit going like the other losers,i don't need ya!I've worked construction my whole life,and i work 6-7 days a week,and can't stand lazy bastards,and believe me when i go in on Saturdays,i'm the only Cracker there.You can have a future in tile,but the Immigrants have raised the bar! :)

[Bill Vincent]

They always have. Even my grandfather, who came to this country from Venice just after WWI-- I have pictures here somewhere of him with a bicycle and his tools strapped to it. :)

[madmax]

[QUOTE=Bill Vincent]Max-- gimme a fer instance?

Personally I agree with Oma in that respect. I've had more apprentices quit because they figure that once the can square off a room and use a cutter that they should be entitled to full scale. QUOTE]


Just read your own post. Your apprentices didn't leave because they were lazy as Oma implied they left for the opportunity to make more money.

[rob 223]

I agree with Dave-- when I lived in Homestead, there was a crew of cubans running around down there doing installs-- labor AND materials for .99 a foot. It was rumored that some rich Cuban in Miami was bankrolling the whole thing, bought a couple of train car loads of tile and had a crew of about 7-8 guys holed up in a condo, giving them free room and board, and paying them 50.00 a day. .

$1 a foot? Even with the discount of buying 100,000 feet or more I cant believe that with mortar, tools, 50 a day labor, that they would see any profit.
$1.25 maybe :rolleyes:

[Bill Vincent]

Rob-- NO ONE could figure out how they were making money, but this was quoted to us by MANY customers who turned them down.

Max-- in a manner of speaking, you're right- they wanted the "easy job" of setting tile and making more money, rather than growing up in the trade and learning it, starting at the bottom for less money. They were "too good" for the grunt work. Sorry, but I stand by my original statement.

[Davy]

My son works with me, he's married and has his own place. Shows up every morning at my place at 5:20, you can set your watch to it. I haven't been easy on him, started his pay at 6.50 out of high school 4 years ago ,he's up to 11.00 now. I won't turn him loose untill he knows every method of tile setting. He seems to realize it takes time and is patient. He's my boy, of course I take care of him, I feed him all he wants. :)

[Bill Vincent]

Same here. In addition, I give him homework (don't know whether or not he does it)-- I've told him while he's "surfing the net" to look into the forums here and on the "other" side, and when I see threads that are especially pertinent to what we're doing, I'll email him the url to those threads. Those, I KNOW he looks in on. Next to going down to CTEF and PROPER ojt, this is about the best education someone could get in the trade.

[oma]

Davy, WOW. I went to your website and looked at the photos. I love the stairway with the brightly colored tiles. Are they Mexican tiles? Is there a source in the DFW area for them?
Speaking of sons, when my son was a kid, he was what I considered to be lazy and unmotivated, and it drove me nuts because I'm quite the opposite. He grew up, got a attitude, and had to go find out on his own that working is the only way to make it if you don't happen to be born into money that mom and dad don't mind giving you. Long story short, after living from friend to friend, and out of his car for a period of time, he finally figured out that hard work and persistence pays off in the long run. He has since grown up a little, got married, has a gorgeous little baby girl, and went to work in the heating/ AC field (always job security in Texas if you can work in air conditioning), and makes a decent living. It's not an enormous paycheck, but he's able to let his wife stay home and take care of the baby. His "hard work" gene from my side of the family finally became active (grin), but it took some tough times and street smarts.

[M.P.TILE]

If You Know They Are Not Legal Workers Report Them.they Owners Can Pay Good Wages Or Big Fines Its Your Responsibility As A Trade Proffessional To Guard The Trade When You Can.most Jobs Around Ga Requairs Green Card Or Proof Of Citizenship To Work For The Big Outfits.they Don't Do The Quality Work They Do The Fast Turnover I'm Not In The Same Field.its The Right Way Or Not My Job. The Biggest Thing Isto Inform Homowners /customers .what Is The Right Way And What Is Not .it Has Really Ran Alot Of Cheap-o's Out Of The Area.if Done Right It Can't Be Done Cheap For Long.

[john3764]

My God Man! Have you seen their work?? Our acceptable tolerances are 1/16" their's is a 1 Foot! I don't think you have anything to worry about. Let them have the tile jobs at McDonalds with the epoxy grout.

[Unregistered]

Wow Davy, I looked at your tile pics on your website...they look sharp man, really nice job. Love the mosaics!

Jeremy

[Bill Vincent]

His "hard work" gene from my side of the family finally became active (grin), but it took some tough times and street smarts.

I know the feeling. :) I was born with the proverbial silver spoon in my mouth.... and I spit it out-- probably the best thing that ever happened to me (although I didn't see it that way at the time! :) ). It took me down off the high horse I was riding (his name was Nepotism) and brought me down to earth.

[Davy]

Thanks Jeremy and Oma, I think the stair tiles were painted here local, can't remember who did it, too much water has gone under the bridge since then.

Finding good workers is hard to do. I talked to a slab man today that has enough crews to do 12 kitchens a day. The work is the worst I've ever seen, especially for million dollar plus houses. Some of the granite tops don't even go back against the sheetrock, they leave as much as 1/2 inch gaps and the tile splash won't even cover it. We end up mudding out the splash 1/4 inch to build out enough. He said he also has 45 tile setters working for him too but only 3 have ever made a batch of mud. He was on the job today getting grilled by the builder for the sad work his guys have been doing.

[alygal]

OMG...in million dollar homes??

If I could afford a home like that I'd be hand-picking my people and I'd be one of those "pain in the arse" customers! :whip:

Honestly, what you folks are saying is pretty scary for the consumer. But then I realized years ago whilst touring some of the "Parade of Homes" houses that the contractors were putting in low-end materials. I prefer older pre-WWII houses and working on them with materials of my own choosing.

[john3764]

I've worked in $10,000,000.00 homes. I don't have call backs, I don't advertise and the work comes to me and I use only the best materials... there is nothing scary about that to a prospective customer. Now... what's scary to the installer is dealing with a customer who forgot take their litium, prozac... (fill in your favorite anti-depressiant drug) that day.. now that's scary. :)

John Wilson

[tileguytodd]

Good to see your not lacking in confidance there John :D

[john3764]

Good to see your not lacking in confidance there John :D

Todd,
I didn't mean to sound pompus, it's just that when Alygal said that it was scary what she was reading about installers and that if she were building a Million dollar home she would be a pain in the arse as well. I know she meant that tounge and cheek, but what she said serves to exemplify how the purchasing public, not all, but some, think. There are some excellent installers on this board and they know what I am talking about; Those that hover, second guess, want it as cheap as possible, as fast as possible, change their minds and do not wish to pay for it. We've all had these customers, right? Thankfully over the years I've built in a sixth sense on how to detect these people and I usually pass on those jobs. Thankfully, I do not get those often. The best jobs: A vacent house and the customer, (who lives out of state) hands you a check in full to remodel a bathroom... call me when it's done. :) I've had these too :)

[LadyGodiva]

John, I'm a perfect customer, but then I expect a perfect worker :D

Only problem though is that I'm learning what is the right way to do things, and if I get a guy who says you can walk (if you have to) on tiles that he's just laid, he is NOT going to be working for me. I saw that at a friend's house and decided right there and then that I was NOT hiring her tile setter. I even argued about it with him, but he said he's always walked on 'just laid tiles' and hadn't had any problems :sick: The other thing he was doing was to lay the tiles and then grout on the same day :bang:

[LadyGodiva]

OMG...in million dollar homes??

If I could afford a home like that I'd be hand-picking my people and I'd be one of those "pain in the arse" customers! :whip:

Honestly, what you folks are saying is pretty scary for the consumer. But then I realized years ago whilst touring some of the "Parade of Homes" houses that the contractors were putting in low-end materials. I prefer older pre-WWII houses and working on them with materials of my own choosing.


That's now so common in my area that it's sickening. I've had friends who bought very expensive homes, and had to have things redone or taken out because it was poorly installed. Makes you really scared to buy a new home. Mine is just 15 years and already falling apart. Many of the builders are looking for cheap labour and don't give a fig about quality... I say we stick around JB forum long enough to learn how to do it RIGHT and then do it ourselves :D

[john3764]

I say we stick around JB forum long enough to learn how to do it RIGHT and then do it ourselves :D


This is how it is done right, go to my web site here:

http://www.northwesttile.net/install.html

[Bill Vincent]

Keep in mind that now, just as before WWII, there are those who, as I stated in another thread, will put up 25-30 upscale homes a year, and brag about it all the way to the bank. Then there are those who, as I also stated in that same thread, will build 3 or 4 homes a year, and build them well. They may not get as big, or have as many toys, but they'll lay their heads down at night with a clear conscience, and THEY'RE the ones you want to buy a home from. I know several contractors up here from BOTH camps, and you can always tell which homes you're in.

[LadyGodiva]

This is how it is done right, go to my web site here:

http://www.northwesttile.net/install.html


John, Thanks. Even if I never lay a tile in my life, at least I'll be able to tell a good tile setter from a fake. I'd hate to find someone who charges next to nothing to lay tiles, and end up calling a pro to rip it up and redo the flooring. Doesn't make sense to me, but my friend still has that guy working for her. She's saving tons of money....NOW. Who knows what she'll be dealing with in a year or so? :rolleyes:

[COBALT]

OMG...in million dollar homes??

If I could afford a home like that I'd be hand-picking my people and I'd be one of those "pain in the arse" customers! :whip:

Honestly, what you folks are saying is pretty scary for the consumer. But then I realized years ago whilst touring some of the "Parade of Homes" houses that the contractors were putting in low-end materials. I prefer older pre-WWII houses and working on them with materials of my own choosing.

Amen to that. There used to be a "Street of Dreams" thing that used to go on in the Puget Sound area a few years back - it mostly was what they were calling"custom" built homes within new developments - meaning you as a home owner had control over what color the paint was and what fixtures you wanted based on choices.

I think there was a show every few years. I only went to it once, and that's all it took. I was very dissapointed. The houses had great views, but had no unique qualities. They were built with interesting architectural ideas, but the materials were cheap, the fixtures were cheap, the floor coverings were cheap. Cheap, cheap, cheap.

The more I was exposed to residential construction the more I realized that a "custom built home" was a thing of the past budget wise. If I wanted someone to built me a custom built home from the ground up in which a crew of professional craftsmen built the home with high quality materials and an eye for quality I'd have to be independently wealthy.

It's one of the motivating factors for buying an older home, and doing the work myself to restore part of the original quality and update it to modern standards as well - all using quality materials.

Anyway: In highschool and early college I started out as a laborer on construction sites, and worked right along side the cheap labor you guys are talking about. It was grueling work, and I got hurt a lot, but since I didn't have any specialized experience I could proove besides what I did growing up I couldn't (or even wasn't allowed to) work as a framer, mason, mud man, finish carpenter, plumber, or electrician even though I knew how. It was my introduction into the world of contractors, unions, etc. I found out in a hurry just because you knew how didn't automatically make you a candidate for the job.

I learned a lot working along side illegal migrant workers and convicted felons. Every job needed laborers, but there wasn't a long line of "legals" wanting to work them either. Come to think of it for most sites there might have been 2 or 3 guys my same age and persuasion, but I was always the only "college boy". I took a lot of heat, and had a few hammers thrown at me, but I remember the BIG problem being people getting hurt. ALOT. I wondered what happened if you were an illegal working on a construction site, and you got hurt. L&I didn't cover you...

[alygal]

Corey, thanks for articulating so well what I was merely alluding too.

My comments were aimed for the large "executive" style homes one finds built in sub-divisions these days.

I've lived in a number of older, pre-WWII homes. One was a 1907 farmhouse bungalow that was untidy on the outside but a delight in the interior depths of the house. The wood still looked new. We had doors cold-dipped to reveal lovely red fir...spent hours cleaning butterfly hinges to find "Japanned" copper(kind of a mottling technique that was used).

I would spend a lot of time researching flooring, and all sorts of rehab materials, learning to distinquish top quality from the lowest, etc. As I would tour many of the Street of Dreams houses (we have them here too Corey), I recognized that much of the flooring and laminate used were of from low-end. This really surprised me as the homes were being offered for quite a lot of money.

I've such a love of stone and wood and the materials that go into making a well crafted house that no way would I plop money down on one of those exec. homes. I would far rather buy a log home kit or build from an updated Sears Craftsman home plan if I were going to have a "new" home.

My favourite "home", where we lived shortly after marriage, was in Berkeley CA. just near the UC Campus on Spruce street. There is a complex of flats called Normandy Village and it was built in the 1920s by an architect who had spent time in Normandy during WWI. He was attempting to replicate some of the buildings he saw there. The flooring was oak; wide planks of it. The windows were cut panes of glass in crank-out iron frames. The closets had small "airing" windows and built in dressers. There was alot of brickwork in small patios and pathways... it was an idyllic place for young marrieds.

Anyway, drifted off-topic, but wanted to clarify my previous posting.

[john3764]

Keep in mind that now, just as before WWII, there are those who, as I stated in another thread, will put up 25-30 upscale homes a year, and brag about it all the way to the bank. Then there are those who, as I also stated in that same thread, will build 3 or 4 homes a year, and build them well. They may not get as big, or have as many toys, but they'll lay their heads down at night with a clear conscience, and THEY'RE the ones you want to buy a home from. I know several contractors up here from BOTH camps, and you can always tell which homes you're in.

I like the way you think Bill.. :)


John

[Davy]

I agree with Bill also. :)

I'm working on a street full of Villa homes, none are very large, 4500 sq ft to 6500. The one I'm starting now is about 5000 ft, 4 baths total, 2 showers, 2 tubs plus the bath floors, a kichen splash, a fireplace, utility and powder bath floors. No big tiled floor areas, lots of hardwood. I picked up 5 pallets of tile from Walker Zanger for this house, total was just under 40 grand for tile alone. 10 grand was just for the kitchen splash. Sometimes the size of the house doesn't mean much. :)

[john3764]

I agree with Bill also. :)

I'm working on a street full of Villa homes, none are very large, 4500 sq ft to 6500. The one I'm starting now is about 5000 ft, 4 baths total, 2 showers, 2 tubs plus the bath floors, a kichen splash, a fireplace, utility and powder bath floors. No big tiled floor areas, lots of hardwood. I picked up 5 pallets of tile from Walker Zanger for this house, total was just under 40 grand for tile alone. 10 grand was just for the kitchen splash. Sometimes the size of the house doesn't mean much. :)


wow... nice job! Alot of work like that where you're at? There isn't much new construction here, mostly remodel.

John

[Davy]

Well, I don't know about "alot". :) I'm on house 18 (I think) out of 51. It's on a golf course and the houses are selling well. They have 8 under construction now. I've been there nearly 3 years. These are the small ones, some in the neighborhood are in the 6-7 mill range. That will buy alot -of -house in Texas. :)

[artisan200]

I am an artisan plasterer specializing in colored italian lime plasters. I have a niche but I have seen the both the quality and the price of work driven down. Because I am a specialist I have done work in 28 states and some of the worst I have seen is in San Diego, Dallas, Houston and all over Florida with the exception of Palm Beach. Specifically because of cheaply paid immigrant labor. These guys have never been taught and don't know what good work is. I can't hire them because although they work hard they don't work smart and they don't have the level of craftmanship I need to satisfy my customers. However it seems that if its cheap enough people don't care. I would be out of business if I left my jobs looking as crappy as solme of them do.
They are just trying to earn a living. It is the management or owners who are at fault. In the SF Bay Area we call them shackers or hacks.
I won't hire an illegal alien.

[John Bridge]

Welcome aboard, Artisan. :) Give us a name, will ya?

[COBALT]

...These guys have never been taught and don't know what good work is. I can't hire them because although they work hard they don't work smart and they don't have the level of craftmanship I need to satisfy my customers. However it seems that if its cheap enough people don't care. I would be out of business if I left my jobs looking as crappy as solme of them do.
They are just trying to earn a living. It is the management or owners who are at fault. In the SF Bay Area we call them shackers or hacks.
I won't hire an illegal alien.

That's a good point. I've always equated hard work with good work, but that's not always the case. Modernization has come a long way making things more convenient, but it's also made things more throw-away, temporary, and downright cheap. The "I want it now for cheap" attitude has a nasty way of diluting society. To bend to those kinds of constraints the market for cheap labor follows suit. Unless the standards of quality change it'll continue to be the case.