CRACK ISOLATION [Archive] - Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

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FGMAZZOLA
07-02-2001, 11:36 AM
GENTLEMEN,
I'M PLANNING ON INSTALLING A NEW CERAMIC TILE FLOOR IN MY KITCHEN AND BREAKFAST ROOM OVER A POST-TENSION SLAB. I'VE ADDED A SMALL ADDITION (25 SQ. FT.) TO THE FOUNDATION. OF COURSE THIS WAS DOWELED INTO THE EXISTING FOUNDATION TO HELP MINIMIZE MOVEMENT. MY CONCERN IS THE POSSIBLE MOVEMENT BETWEEN THE TWO SLABS. ONE LOCAL INSTALLER SUGGESTED I PUT DOWN AN INEXPENSIVE VINYL FLOOR FIRST AND IT WOULD ACT AS A CRACK ISOLATOR. ANOTHER LOCAL PROFESSIONAL THOUGHT THIS IDEA WAS CRAZY. ANY THOUGHTS, SUGGESTIONS, OR ADVICE WILL BE GREATLY APPRECIATED. THANKS ALOT.
FRANK

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John Bridge
07-02-2001, 02:39 PM
Hi Frank. Glad you made it.

I'll tell you all that Frank and I are practically neighbors. I'm one of the guys who was at his house. I didn't tell him the linoleum idea was crazy. I said it was stupid. I've told Frank what I would do in his situation, and I invited him here so we could get some other opinions. So, hold forth, folks.

I also told Frank that we'd advise him during the course of the floor laying.

Bud Cline
07-02-2001, 04:00 PM
MAZZOLA,

If John didn't tell you the vinyl thing was as crazy as it was stupid then he has shirked one of his duties as a professional. I think we will have to sentence him to a full week of drinking only Lone Star Beer. That should be punishment enough for anybody.

The vinyl thing is being done here and there so it's not a total off the wall idea, the biggest problem with the concept is that it can't work for long I don't think.

Dowelling the slabs together is a very smart approach but it is not 100% insurance. I think this joint should be honored in some fashion. There are methods established for this purpose.

But first of all......where does this joint occur in the overall scheme of your design plans?

LDavis
07-04-2001, 05:21 PM
I agree, unless your planning to incorporate some type of full floor uncoupling system (the vinyl won't accomplish this), you need to "honor" the cold joint and plan the tile installation with a movement joint there. Bud, I know you did not just make a derogatory comment about our national beer!? Three or four of those babies are better than ExLax. Lone Star, a medicine you can actually enjoy!

Bud Cline
07-04-2001, 09:52 PM
"BEER": "Helping the whiteman to dance"!


Far be it from me to criticise the spring water of the Great State of Texas. I like Texas and would never make a suppository remark about the place. I forgot, which lake is it they dip the water from to brew Lone Star?

kalford
07-04-2001, 10:49 PM
Frank,
I too agree about the linoleum.It is not intended,by design,to be an underlayment/crack isolater for a ceramic tile installation.There are products such as Schluter-Ditra that ARE made for that.

From the information you provided I say honor the joint.You can install a decorative movement joint there and if you can,lay it out so that a grout joint falls there.That way when you install the movement joint the pattern won't be interupted.

Honoring the joint is the safest way to avoid a possible problem.

If you can lay it out so that a grout joint falls on the floor joint you can make a "soft" joint using backer rod and color-match caulk.This will disguise the joint and allow for movement as well.


Bud,Beer helps the whiteman THINK he can dance.

John Bridge
07-05-2001, 06:02 AM
Frank,

I bought more crack isolation membrane/anti-fracture membrane from Master Tile the other day. It's called "Protecto Wrap." It's made out in Colorado.

http://www.c-z.com/viewproduct.cfm?product_grouping_id=2251

Rob Z
07-05-2001, 06:35 AM
Hello everyone

John: I just saw that product at Summitville tile the other day. Very impressive. Did your supplier show you the floor mock up with the crank, so you can stretch the stuff and see its flexibility?

Frank: I'll just agree with everyone else. Lay your tile so there is a grout joint where the two slabs meet. Use one of the many available crack isolation membranes for additional protection.

These are the ones I have used: Laticrete Blue 92 and Schluter Ditra.

Keep us posted as your project progresses.

Rob

LDavis
07-05-2001, 05:34 PM
Lake? Go all the way to a lake just for water to brew beer. (Might go all the way to a lake to drink it) Generally, the nearest cattle watering "tank" will do just fine for Lone Star. In fact, the more algae, moss, and cattle slobber thats in the water, the "stouter" the brew. Lone Star Lite is made with tap water for those less hearty individuals that don't want the extra vitamins, minerals, and assorted protein available in the standard brew.

Rob Z
07-05-2001, 06:20 PM
All of you Texans will be stunned to know that Lone Star is packaged/stocked/priced as one of those damn premium beers here in the local supermarkets.

It's next to the stuff like Harp, Molson, Becks etc.

When I feel like taking out a second mortgage on the house so I can drink Guinness, that's fine. But when the guys are sitting around, laying waste to case after case, something in the price range of Busch is what I'm looking for.

Latney and John, what the hell is going on down in Texas? Who is marking this Texan beer up 400%? Isn't this what Smokey and the Bandit was about-trucking affordable beer cross country for the working man?

And who is complaining about moss and cattle slobber in their beer? Not me.

Bud Cline
07-05-2001, 06:24 PM
"Is that what that damned movie was about"???

I just thought they were manufacturing scrap metal.

LDavis
07-05-2001, 06:48 PM
Rob, its the old "Mikey" syndrome. "Lets price this swill as an import (southern import) and send it to Yankee land. Those Yankee's (I don't mean the ball team) will PAY for and try anything." Ya'll enjoy one for me. And don't try sendin none of that Yankee stuff down here, we are on to you! Besides, we still gotta drink the stuff we didn't ship North.

Rob Z
07-05-2001, 08:00 PM
I would like to state for the record that I lived in Texas for three years. Is that close enough for you, John, and Sonnie?

LDavis
07-05-2001, 08:17 PM
A certified Texan for 3 years. By gosh thats good enough for me. I'll send you a bottle of Mezcal to take the bite out of those Lone Star's Rob. I've also got this great recording of Scottish bag pipers playing "The Eyes Of Texas". You'll be wanting of copy of this I'm sure.!? It'll give you goosebumps Rob, or at the very least, make the hair on the back of your neck stand up.

Bud Cline
07-05-2001, 08:57 PM
M-m-m-mm-mmm-m-mmmmmmmmmm-m, m-m-mm-m-m....."The Eyes of Texas" does it sound like that?

You just think your certified now, spend about a dozen years there and you WILL be certifiable for sure.

And before Texas you were..............???

Rob Z
07-05-2001, 09:20 PM
On my last visit to Texas (1993) I saw this bumper sticker:

"I wasn't born in Texas, but I got here as fast as I could"

Latney, send that tequila just as fast as you can. I'm gonna need it soon...

John Bridge
07-06-2001, 04:49 PM
I'll be damned. That's why Lone Star didn't go broke when everybody was saying they were going broke. They're sellin' that muck in New York City! And Jim Buckley (flatfloor) is right across the bay on Long Island. I'll bet Lone Star is a real hit out there. Those people are the ones who buy up all the designer cowboy boots we import from Taiwan.

John Bridge
07-06-2001, 04:52 PM
Almost forgot. On bumper stickers, et al.

You know how you can have a "signature" on forums like this and in chat rooms? Ran into a guy on a board in the U.K. His signature went like this:

his name,

On Earth as it is in Texas

LDavis
07-06-2001, 06:03 PM
AMEN!!!

Rob Z
07-06-2001, 07:28 PM
For the good of the group, I will go to the grocery store tomorrow and collect data on Lone Star beer marketing in Virginia. Will report back with pricing and availability. The fact that my 'fridge is empty of beer has nothing to do with it.

Rob

chip
07-09-2001, 05:49 AM
John will debate this, but a much less expensive alternative to the products previously mentioned is cork. this is a crack isolation product that is natural and works.

You should be able to find 3/32 for .50cents a s/f or less.

As for the cold joint, you must honor it and carry it through your job. You can anticipate movement and should be prepared to accomodate it.

Now for the beer, everyone knows that the canadians make the best darn beer this side of the Pecos "river". I have learned something on this site.

Actually I have learned what a good group of guys hang out here and how nice it is to have a place to go to and help when help is needed and enjoy the company in the interim.

Ya'll have a great day,

Art

John Bridge
07-09-2001, 06:11 AM
What is it with you and cork? Do you have an interest in a plantation somewhere? I can't for the life of me imagine why anyone would want to use it in view of all the better materials that are out there.

Cork is organic. It can rot. It can harbor mold and other germs. It stinks when it gets damp and moldy, and it retains odors. It is not strong. It is the last thing in the world I would glue to a slab.

And at 3/32 it is about twice the thickness of the AFM I mentioned.

chip
07-09-2001, 07:47 PM
AFM?

I know all those cork boards are just deteriating as we speak, and all that wine is leaking before we can get it out of the bottle and the mold is beyond belief.

John, John, cool down man.

Cork has been used on millions of square feet of tile installations world wide.

I didn't suggest using it in a wet area.

It is a proven less expensive product that works!!!

What is my interest, my company markets cork as well as other crack Isolation products, but they are also water proof.

So to offer a product that is just a crack isolation product we offer cork.

It's not going to rot, build mold, deteriorate and all the other horrific fallacies suggested previously.

It's also used as a sound abatement material in thicker sizes.

Why would any one install a water proof material where it isn't needed?

Art

Rob Z
07-09-2001, 08:00 PM
Art

Does thinset bond to cork? Is this for real?....using cork under ceramic?

Rob

Bud Cline
07-09-2001, 09:57 PM
I also have never used cork. It is always prominently displayed at "Surfaces" and must be finding a reasonable market, but I too would be hesitant to use it.

How is it applied to the substrate when it is 3/32" thin?

racerettte
07-09-2001, 11:43 PM
I've used cork ;-)

FGMAZZOLA
07-10-2001, 11:19 AM
Lady and Gentlemen,
Thank you for the overwhelming response. I'll definitely being calling on you again as my project gets underway.

Ya'll seem to agree that some sort of isolation is needed. I must now decide which product it will be. Cork sounds interesting, however ya'll seem to really disagree on it. Any more thoughts or additional information on it will be appreciated.

As for the Lone Star. I've lived in Texas for 24 years and I have to say, it's not on my list of favorites!!! Maybe I can use it for sealing the grout!!! What do you think John?

Just kidding. Thanks again for the continued support.

Regards,
Frank

John Bridge
07-10-2001, 02:59 PM
Hey Frank,

Maybe we can sell Lone Star to Yankees as a grout cleaner, eh? Or as a general cleaner, even better. We can get Jim B. Flatfloor to push it for us up on Long Island -- you know, spot him a case for himself every once in a while. (Naw, he'd probably want real beer for himself.)

Even though your slab is not presently wet, consider it a wet area. Saturday I toured a subdivision just the other side of 290 where they have all their carpet and drywall piled out at the curb. Every single house took on water. Looks like a combat area.

Besides that, it's not hard to imagine moisture coming up from underneath around here. Art lives in Florida. I would imagine it's a possibility down there, too.

Daisey, I hope you're talking about the red wine (cork)?

chip
07-10-2001, 04:46 PM
John,

I'm from Michigan, what I miss alot in Florida is having a nice cool basement to go down into in the summer. Any ideas why they don't dig basements in South Florida? Think water table.

Heck, down here the rage is wicking paper, for you guys who have ever installed vinyl, it's scribing paper.

And they say "it" works. Not me, the installers I talk with.

Rob,

Cork goes down with mastic, and you can set tile to immediately. With thin set you would have to wait 24 to 48 hours.

If you don't need water proofing, cork is a very good crack suppresant. Not cork board cork, it isn't stable enough. Use the cork that is desingned to work with ceramic tile.

Off to the local pub with the wife for some wings, beer & the All-Star game.

Art

John Bridge
07-10-2001, 05:58 PM
Okay, you asked for it. I'm going to get Dave G. to pronounce on cork. As soon as he tells us about his breaking machine, that is. :-)

Rob Z
07-10-2001, 06:05 PM
Art

So, thinset DOES bond to cork? I've never seen it listed as an acceptable substrate on any bag of any setting material.

I'm convinced that you are the Howard Stern of the tile industry. You say outlandish stuff and then retreat to watch baseball and drink beer while the rest of us argue. Are you makin' this stuff up?

Still skeptical, but amused,

Rob

Bud Cline
07-10-2001, 06:27 PM
Art,

How would cork be installed with thinset? How is the thinset applied? Does the cork have to be rolled? Why would you want to install cork with thinset to begin with?

"Curious minds want to know".

chip
07-10-2001, 07:38 PM
Mastic is quicker and thiner (v notch trowel) so it doesn't come up thruough the cork, like thin set can.

But have any of you set tile to plywood? If so I'll bet you used Multi-Purpose thin set. That is the trick to set tile to cork.

I haven't brought it up before because I "ass-u-me"d that it was standard practice, and or common knowledge.

You guys stick with ol' Art, I've still got a few tricks up my sleeve. (Hey buddie, wanna buy a watch?)

Seriously, if cork deteriorates, how does it last for years and years in all those wine bottles? Aren't the best wines or brandy aged for 10,20,50,75 years?

Honest to god guys, it works.

Art (I made a ass out of myself again) Phenis

Bud Cline
07-10-2001, 08:19 PM
Art said: You guys stick with ol' Art, I've still got a few tricks up my sleeve. (Hey buddie, wanna buy a watch?)

Yeh.....your the guy that wants me to use warm water on a new commercial job. What's Coleman's web address anyway?

You did say cork could be installed with thinset didn't you? HOW is it done. Seriously!

How would cork be installed with thinset? How is the thinset applied? Does the cork have to be rolled? Why would you want to install cork with thinset to begin with?

"Curious minds want to know".

chip
07-10-2001, 08:56 PM
USE MASTIC, USE MASTIC, USE MASTIC, USE MASTIC, USE MASTIC!! TO SET THE CORK TO THE SUBSTRATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Roll it, to get the air bubbles out.

Use Multi-purpose thin set to set your tiles.

http://coleman.com I think, hell, what do I know I'm just a cork salesman. Rent a couple of Igloo coolers and bring it from the posh hotel you will be staying in.

Don't plan on getting it out of the Pacific, it has a bit of a chill up there. Then we will be back at square one.

Art

Bud Cline
07-11-2001, 05:19 PM
"We're not irritable are we"? I wasn't ever planning on using cork anyway, or warm water for that matter. I'm not sure a posh hotel is in the budget for this one, I am thinking about buying a camper to make the trip though.

Bri
07-11-2001, 06:03 PM
I thought you weren't allowed to use the "M" word around here?

chip
07-12-2001, 05:42 AM
I moved down here in January and hadn't been able to find cold water out of the faucet until last week while vacationing in Michigan.

Bri,

I guess I missed that in the by laws while registering.

Lets talk about E P S concrete coated curbs, that should go over like a ton of bricks.

Art

John Bridge
07-12-2001, 01:26 PM
Hey Bri,

There's no ban on the m word (can't bring myself to say it). It's just that I don't use the stuff. Mastic! There, I said it.

Bud Cline
07-12-2001, 03:39 PM
John,

Now you've got me curious......

When you use thinset to install wall tile, what size/style trowel do you put it on the wall with?

What's wrong with the "M" stuff? It does everything thinset does. Doesn't it?

John Bridge
07-12-2001, 07:05 PM
Oh Geez, now you've opened this thing up again. Tell you what. I'll start a new post on the other board. Everyone is invited, of course.