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J-Rad
07-28-2004, 12:25 AM
Hi all. I’m new here and I’m glad I found this site. There seems to be a lot of different backgrounds and experience to share/learn from here. I’ve done some browsing around on old posts/archives and one recurring theme I kept coming across was the poor opinion of Denshield. I find this curious. So, in the interest of further education (separating truth from myth) I wanted to discuss it further.

First, let me say that I have to relationship with Georgia-Pacific…or any other manufacturer for that matter. I do not work in the industry. I’m just a DIYer.

That said, there seems to be a lot of criticism of Denshield (“it’s just gypsum”, “it won’t last”, etc…). I’m curious as to the basis for this. Have many of you here used it or even tried it?

About a year and a half ago I remodeled a bathroom in our former house. I used Denshield as the tile backer for the walls and ceiling in the bath area. I was very happy with the product. It was very easy to work with and seems to be durable enough. Obviously, I cannot speak to it’s lasting effects because we’ve since moved and it’s only been a year…nonetheless, I know the tiles have not fallen off the wall!

Before undertaking the bathroom remodel, I did my own DIYer experiment to determine which product to use. I had heard some similar concerns over Denshield but when prompted for more info, no one really ever had first hand experience or knowledge of it. So I bought a few products (sheetrock (gypsum), greenboard (treated gypsum), cement board, and Denshield). Each was ½” thick. I cut them into strips (2” x 8”) and submerged one end into a bucket of water to see how durable they would be and to see how much water they’d wick. As expected, the sheetrock only lasted only a few minutes before completely turning to mush and wicking up a ton of water. The greenboard not much longer (maybe a half hour…being generous). On the other hand, after 2 weeks, the Denshield was still fairly solid. There was some mushiness but it had not completely disintegrated like sheetrock and there was very little wicking. The cement board had some disintegration as well but not much. That told me that Denshield was more than just some gypsum. Denshield is also significantly more rigid than regular gypsum. BTW, I took the samples out after 2 weeks because I figured if my bathroom was under water for 2 weeks I had more important issues to be concerned with.

So this only speaks to my experience with tiling walls. I have not used it in flooring, although I’m actually considering it. Denshield’s compressive strength and durability do remain a question and I’d like to hear some real-life, first hand testimonials, for better or worse. The main issue for me is around its compressive strength, especially if I were to use it as a backer in the kitchen where a heavy appliance such a refrigerator may rest on it. GP states that it has a strength to withstand 450+ pounds per square inch. As such it seems that it would be strong enough (no solid reason to doubt GP's claims at this point).

Anyway, that’s my experience. I’m sure there are many strong opinions on the topic and I’d love to hear them.

Regards,
Jared (J-Rad)

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bbcamp
07-28-2004, 05:27 AM
Tile setters are by nature a conservative bunch. After all, their reputation and their paychecks depend on the durability of their installations. There is no money in call backs. So whenever a new product comes along, they sniff around it and pick it apart before they bet the house on it.

Most of these guys have been around a long time. Many were bit by the greenboard experience, and many now make a good living repairing greenboard showers. So they look at Den-shield and see greenboard, but with a spiffier covering. That covering must be intact for a shower to remain waterproof. Most of the guys believe that the average installer, not just DIYers, won't pay close enough attention to detail, or a careless stroke with a margin trowel, will render the waterproof layer useless. And then there's the issue with the cut ends. So, they conclude that the disadvantages and risks do not outweigh the one-time advantages during the installation.


So, if you want to use it, go ahead. I urge you to become an expert on the manufacturer's inatallation procedure and follow it to the letter. Take progress pictures to document your work.

cx
07-28-2004, 07:27 AM
What Bob said. :)

Did you use the Denshield in the shower of this remodel, Jarad, or just the walls outside the shower? I can't tell by your description:I used Denshield as the tile backer for the walls and ceiling in the bath area.

davem
07-28-2004, 08:02 AM
One more opinion. If a shower is not properly built with a pre-slope under the liner and clear weep holes at the drain, the mud bed will become saturated and stay that way. The low corner of the shower will be the swampiest and the wall board there would have it's lower edge constantly "submerged".

Scooter
07-28-2004, 09:21 AM
The inherent problem with DensShield is that its core is gypsun, to reduce weight. It is covered with a truly waterproof membrane on both sides. When nailed, one nails through this marvelous membrane. Yes they have some propietory tape which seals those nail holes.

I'd just as soon apply regular CBU and coat the sucker with Laticrete 9235.

DensShield is the poor man's Kerdi.

So, I get up to Bloomington this year. I haven't been to Gallyons for months. My wallet is itching for fishing toys.

T_Hulse
07-28-2004, 09:22 AM
Also, in well used family showers it can stay completely wet, saturated, almost continually behind the tile. Jared how do think that bucket test would look at a few years? "...easy to work with and seems to be durable enough" is just not good enough for most of the pros around here. On something so crucial that can easily make or break your reputation & livelihood, they want the best there is. :)
On your project did you caulk all the nail heads & all the board seams like the instructions say? So you probably had to tool the caulk on every single nail so you didn't have a caulk lump. Did that take a while? For a pro time is money, and I don't have the time to play around with caulk everywhere on the CBU, especially since the board already is more expensive. I haven't seen the tape Scooter mentioned yet (more expense). I wouldn't have a problem with the extra time if it gave a better finished product, but the very fact that it NEEDS to have everything caulked proves that it doesn't. I think homeowners like the board because it's lighter & easier to cut, but for a pro it's actually slower to install (including re-waterproofing it), more expensive (labor & materials both), and it doesn't give a better finished product.

J-Rad
07-28-2004, 10:11 AM
Did you use the Denshield in the shower of this remodel, Jarad, or just the walls outside the shower? I can't tell by your description: [/B]
Let me try and clarify...
It was a bathtub with a showerhead. As such, I only butted up against the lip of the tub. Denshield was used in the entire alcove around the tub area (3 walls, ceiling, and an arch).

Unregistered
07-28-2004, 11:08 AM
Also, in well used family showers it can stay completely wet, saturated, almost continually behind the tile.
See, and I would argue that if this happens it's a result of poor installation.

Jared how do think that bucket test would look at a few years?
I would expect it to still be strong. If there is continual saturation behind the tile there are other issues that need to be addressed.


On your project did you caulk all the nail heads & all the board seams like the instructions say?
I think this kind of speaks to separating the myths. I don't believe the installations instructions say such a thing (I'm willing to be proven wrong) but here are the instructions straight from GP:
http://www.gp.com/build/DocumentViewer.aspx?repository=BP&elementid=3112
The installation instructions say,"Caulk or seal penetrations and abutments to dissimilar materials." According to GP (called their tech support again to verify), they consider the latex mortar used to set the tiles as a sealer.

Another difference right here as well. I don't use nails. I use screws for better adherance to the studs. The screws used were those specificed by GP and not countersunk, thus not breaking the membrane.

As a result, the only areas caulked were the corners and the lip area near the tub that the product butts up against. Mesh tape with thin set was used on joints.

For a pro time is money. I wouldn't have a problem with the extra time if it gave a better finished product, but the very fact that it NEEDS to have everything caulked proves that it doesn't.
Cement board needs additional moisture barriers and such. How long does if take to cut and clean up cement board vs. Dens-shield?

It sounds like what it comes down to is a couple of things:
1) It's a new product and most aren't willing to risk trying something new.
2) Because time is money, some are wanting to take the quickest approach possible...however, this begs the question does quality suffer as a result?

Given this, is it truly fair to mount some of the criticisms of the product? Just curious.

J-Rad
07-28-2004, 11:15 AM
Sorry...this ^^^ was me again (I don't have the log in thing done quite yet).

Regards,
Jared (J-Rad)

Unregistered
07-28-2004, 11:18 AM
I love this quote:

"First, let me say that I have to relationship with Georgia-Pacific…or any other manufacturer for that matter. I do not work in the industry. I’m just a DIYer. "

cx
07-28-2004, 11:54 AM
According to GP (called their tech support again to verify), they consider the latex mortar used to set the tiles as a sealer. 'Fraid that's kinda like the old question about how many legs does a dog have if you count the tail as a leg, Jared. Point is, just because the Denshield rep "considers" the thinset to be waterproof doesn't mean it is waterproof.

If he also considers the screw heads to be sealed against moisture penetration because they didn't actually break through the waterproof covering, I think he is mistaken again.

We're not talking flood-grade water movement here, we're concerned with long-term moisture penetration into a material that is not at all impervious to water damage. That's the argument.

If you have penetrations in the outer covering of that board, which you must have if you fasten it mechanically from one side to the other, and you don't completely waterproof those penetrations, and you subject that installation to a frequently wet environment, you will have some moisture getting into the interior of that board. And over the long-term, the gypsum composition is likely to fail.

Given that there are alternative materials available that don't suffer that same possible damage, it just makes sense that the tile pros will stay with what has proven to work. I know we have a number of pros here who use the product in dry areas, such as kitchen back splashes, because it is as easy to install as sheetrock and also provides a good tiling surface. But I've not heard any of them indicate they are comfortable with it in showers. Maybe we'll hear from some now. :)

My opinion; worth price charged.

Scooter
07-28-2004, 01:09 PM
I just logged onto their site, and their proprietory tape is no longer available. At one point, must be 5 years ago, they sold as part of their kit, rolls of the tape, which resembled Kerdi and were used to plug the holes left by nails and screws.

To my astonishment today, all that covers up the multitude of holes in the product is ordinary mesh tape and thinset.

Thinset wicks moisture like goose crap through a tin horn.

At least a few years ago they had a decent argument, but now with nails every 6 inches, oh my God, what a potential disaster.

That gypsun core is a water magnet and unless completely and thoroughly sealed, will suck up and retain every drop of moisture. Glass tape and thinset won't hold back the tide.

This stuff sucks.

cx
07-28-2004, 01:24 PM
Well, now, Mr. Scooter, if you have a personal opinion of the product, just come right out with it, won't you? :D

Davestone
07-28-2004, 01:28 PM
The builder i do work for uses it exclusively,and i don't have a choice,but only on walls.I tried some on a floor for a test and posted the results on a thread and decided i wasn't totally against it.Here we use cork for sound control,and a paperlike product for anticrack,neither are waterproof, so it wasn't a stretch for us,and in my opinion the screw holes on vertical interior applications aren't that big a deal in a residential home. But i wouldn't ,myself, use it for flooring ,or in a steam shower,or any place where high moisture is a factor.Yeah, don't sugar coat it Scooter, give it to us straight!:D :D

J-Rad
07-28-2004, 02:05 PM
To my astonishment today, all that covers up the multitude of holes in the product is ordinary mesh tape and thinset.
Curious, how is this different from cement board? You still have to adhere that to the wall as well. Those holes will also be covered with tile to a very large extent.

Scooter
07-28-2004, 02:58 PM
The difference is in the core. Concrete does not wick water to the extent that gypsun does. Gypsun soaks up more water weight than concrete does. Its like a sponge. Weigh some drywall, weigh some CBU; Soak both in water; Weight them again. Tell me what you find out.

Second, CBU at least expels some moisture. Soak some drywall; Soak some CBU. Put both out in the sun. See which one dries out faster. Tell me what you find out.

This stuff sucks.

Unregistered
07-28-2004, 03:30 PM
[B]The difference is in the core. Concrete does not wick water to the extent that gypsun does. Gypsun soaks up more water weight than concrete does. Its like a sponge. Weigh some drywall, weigh some CBU; Soak both in water; Weight them again. Tell me what you find out.

Second, CBU at least expels some moisture. Soak some drywall; Soak some CBU. Put both out in the sun. See which one dries out faster. Tell me what you find out.

A couple points, we're not talking drywall here we are talking the Den-shield product. They are different and perform differently (as mentioned in the original post). As you indicated, concrete also wicks water. I'd argure that it retains that moisture longer as well.

As for expelling moisture, I'd say that laying something out in the sun is not a real good test. The product, once installed, is not going to be set in the sun to dry. I think it's more valid to see how much water is repelled and how quickly the product dries naturally after exposure to water (showers, baths, etc...) are not continually submerged (brings up another valid question, what real volumes of water are we talking about here? I suspect minimal). After the product dries has it deformed any and is it's strength still there? According to my experiment (which is open to scrutiny as well) Den-shield performed well. Enough so that I have a difficult time seeing how one one could say it sucks. Maybe you've done some experiments that prove otherwise?

Steven Hauser
07-28-2004, 03:58 PM
Jared,
I've used the product and will venture to make the following points.

The point about moisture and durabilty stems from the premise that a shower should last more than 5 years.


Properly prepared sheet rock will work. How? By applying KERDI or Noble membrane to the material. All moisture and vapor will not reach it.


The moderators all try to dispense advice with proven results. We don't tell about tricks and maybe's. We don't ascribe to minimum values because people can mistake what is meant.

Bottom line it is not the installer who has to show a longitudinal test of failure. Rather it is the manufacturer who needs to show longitudinal tests of success.

The fact that GP does not want the punctures to be covered with anything other than silicone which BTW could mean an acrylic based silicone caulk to many does not bode well for the material.

The fact that many of the major distributors no longer keep it in stock is telling also.

So I vote no Denshield.

Now answer me a few questions.

Why presume that we need to justify our distrust of the product? For instance is it really bad to say the denshield sucks? I think it does.

Can we derail this thread now? Beer, fishing, and transportation are popular subjects. You can get a lot of opinions on those.

:)

Scooter
07-28-2004, 04:41 PM
Pabst Blue Ribbon Beer sucks. My favorite is Harps.

Eel Pouts (only those in Minnesota will know what these are) suck. About a 18 inch Walley is my favorite fish.

Ford Trucks suck. I like my Chevy.

Oh, and George Bush. He sucks to. I like the other guy.

OK, fire away.

J-Rad
07-28-2004, 04:57 PM
Why presume that we need to justify our distrust of the product? For instance is it really bad to say the denshield sucks? I think it does.
It's not at all bad to say it sucks provided there is some actual justification behind it. Most of the claims didn't have any real first hand experience with the product...only theories on why it probably sucks. Sometimes new technology and/or change can be threatening...especially when your income is at stake. I was just trying to have an honest discussion on the topic...sometimes playing devils advocate.

Can we derail this thread now? Beer, fishing, and transportation are popular subjects. You can get a lot of opinions on those.
I can talk about these too! ;) ...well not fishing, it bores me to tears! :stick: ;) :D

Davy
07-28-2004, 07:52 PM
Hi Jared, welcome.

Being used over a bathtub, I think it will last a good while. A shower stall is a different story. The bottom two ft of a shower stall really can deteriorate fast if not done right. Moisture seeping around the screws and wicking upward from damp dry pack cement under the floor tiles will keep the core wet. I can't see how it could ever dry out once wet since it has a membrane on both sides. Mold and a musty smell is always a concern when moisture is trapped and something we talk about here often. I haven't ever tore out a Denshield shower so I can't say this is a problem but sure seems like it could be.:)

Y'all keep the beer, pour me up a tall iced tea.;) Thank ya much.

T_Hulse
07-28-2004, 08:07 PM
Because time is money, some are wanting to take the quickest approach possible...however, this begs the question does quality suffer as a result?Careful with that Jared. :D I happen to know the guys you're talking to here about this product, including myself, would never cut such a corner for time or money. In fact just the opposite is true, and I said as much right next to the snippet you took out of context. :)
A couple points you're missing:
1) modified grout & modified thinset barely slow down water from getting behind the tile. It truely is massively saturated behind tile in a well used family shower (especially w/ sanded grout) and no this is not a defect or indicative of a bigger problem. I'm telling you this is a fact.
2) It is more than a little unreasonable to expect pros with their livelihood on the line to go 180 degrees directly against install instructions (that you quoted above) just on the ok of a guy on the internet with second hand heresay from a phone conversation that told him it was ok. :confused: The instructions are dead-on clear, you must caulk or seal those nail heads (yes you did penetrate the board even if you didn't countersink). As an experience professional I know I have seen irrefutable evidence with my own eyes that the regular modified mortar used behind shower tile will not seal anything back there at all. Read the TCA manual; every single approved tile install method revolves around this basic premise. If this rep was correct then they would have just said as much in the instructions, but they did not.

Now Scooter you Souther California SOB, you have obviously been drinkin too much of that watered down canal water they call harps if you really think a Chevy is better than a Ford. :D

Davestone
07-28-2004, 08:09 PM
Well, here we go, i've been using it in showers,cause that's what the G.C. uses,we keep the wall 6" above drypack and wire and mud it,and we're on metal studs,recessed showers,and above wood floors,with seats and niches,marble and tile,porcelain and tumbled. I haven't had to tear out anything YET,due to water damage,but we're only in our 3rd year here.I have tore out various parts of showers for changes,as seats niches,borders and such.I so far haven't found any appreciable,rusty screws or studs or soppy walls yet,but they're young.I tried to saturate some once,and it actually kind of resisted water, but when i rubbed it with my wet finger it absorbed it.I definitely wouldn't embedd it in my floor mud.Anyone who's read my stuff knows i don't like new products,and if i was contracting the wall install i would use cbu,and i'm not contracted to waterproof or tape joints,so it may be a problem in the future,and tommorrow i think i'll have a little talk with the G.C.,cause i don't like to look like a hack.;)

Davy
07-28-2004, 08:21 PM
I can see holding it up 6 inches will help. I don't like the idea of nailing wire down that low.

I'm a mud man, I think CBU sucks and here I'am arguing in its favor.:D

Lemon in that tea please.;)

Davestone
07-28-2004, 08:26 PM
Yeah, we just tack the top 11/2 inches,we're probably 21/2" above drain,commonplace here.

Bri
07-28-2004, 09:00 PM
A few years ago I posted about a Denshield failure that I was lucky enough to have to rip out. This was a floor installation, and it got wet. I shoveled the stuff into a wheelbarrow...the acrylic coating was still stuck to the tile, but the insides were mush. Now to be fair, it should never have been installed in that area, but it did break down into what can be best discribed as wet drywall mud. So, it may be just fine when in contact with intermitent moisture..but if it sits in water it does fall apart.

Steven Hauser
07-29-2004, 09:31 AM
Ah!! a successfully derailed thread.

Fishing. Me No opinion I only know people who fish.

Transportation. Well I like to run. All, except my running buddies, (wife calls them nuts too) think it sucks.

I think internal combustion sucks. I like electric hydrogen technology ideas but don't know enough to be even dangerous.

Beer- For some reason I have been enjoying a Corona every now and again, but, I'm not a big beer hound. Dark beers have been my favorite for sometimes.

Ford versus Chevy.. they both suck. I own them both.

Yep, hold any material 18" above the pan and it all seems pretty good. 80% of documented damage is at the 90 degree transitions. That is pans, seats and niches and tubs.

;)

Scooter
07-29-2004, 10:41 AM
OK, I wanna know, who knows what an Eel Pout is?

Chime in you rednecks and yankees.

genel
07-29-2004, 10:49 AM
http://img.thefreedictionary.com/dict/102/434084-eelpout.gif

Westie
07-29-2004, 01:22 PM
I found a good use for the Denshield my contractor put in my shower. After pulling it down and replacing it with hardibacker I had a whole stack ot it. I now lay it on my garage floor where I mix up the thin set. Keeps the garage floor clean and just toss it out when you're finished.


Beer - BIG ROCK is the best.

Ford versus Chevy - Toyota (my 86 4x4 has close to 300,000 Kms on it and still starts at -30 without plugging it in)

Scooter
07-29-2004, 03:13 PM
I didn't get many comers on the Eel Pout, but in Minnesota, they reside in the larger lakes are an ugly slimy thing (I wouldn't call it a fish, but I think it has gills), completely inedible.

That being said, only in Minnesota, they have an EelPout Festival in Leech Lake every February which is an awesome drunk fest.

Eeels and leeches. Yum.

Davestone
07-29-2004, 04:29 PM
We've got something like that here, we call a mudfish.

Dave Gobis
07-29-2004, 08:53 PM
I don't think I will even try this one but it is so tempting.

cx
07-29-2004, 09:33 PM
Which one, Dave? The Denshield or the ugly fish? :D

T_Hulse
07-29-2004, 11:02 PM
Awww, c'mon Dave! :D Is this another one of those type & delete responses? :) How bout just a hint at what you "would have" discussed with us if you felt more free to do so? ;)
Am I right that all TCA install methods allow for an additional barrier behind wet area tile to drain the water that gets past the tile? Am I right that you've seen a thousand showers with the green board turned to absolute complete mush for the bottom 2', and the tile & grout & thinset didn't hardly slow the water down on it's way to ruin the cheap substrate? And what is your position on eel pout, good eatin' or not??

Dave Gobis
07-30-2004, 04:52 AM
OK, maybe just a little. All wall methods call for a vapor membrane. They don't specify barrier, which is a waterproof material with a perm rating less than 1 (4 mil plastic sheeting qualifies ) or a vapor retarders ( 15# roofing felt has a perm rating of 5 ). If you install a "barrier" behind a gypsum product failure is assured. This is why the method is not in the TCA handbook for wet areas as a membrane of some sort is required on exterior walls under most building codes. Tubs and showers often share or abut an exterior wall so there is a conflict. This even more so an issue in warmer climates on exterior walls due to the warmth of the wall cavity reacting with the cool moist interior of the wet tile surface. Regular gypsum panels need to breathe out the back of the panel. In the warm climate situation the wall rots from the back in. There are specific instructions in GA 216, the Gypsum industry "handbook". I have never in my lifetime seen them followed nor have other members of the committees so the method was removed from the TCA Handbook. If a regular gypsum product is set on the tub or the joint at the tub interface is grouted instead of caulked, the clock starts ticking. This holds true to a lesser extent with Densheild. However, they, as all backerboard and gypsum manufacturers caution to caulk, not grout, the joint between the panel and the tub to prevent wicking. Going back to the product at hand, the current version of the product has a perm rating of 1.2 and a panel absorption rate of 5% due to its treated core. This product is one of a family called Densguard. Its "Gold" panel is used to clad building exteriors. Maybe you have seen a big yellow/gold building under construction somewhere? The Densheild has the highest performance values of any product in the line, more than the Gold which is used 10 stories up. So here is the moral of the story, skilled professionals can safely use such products 10 stories up on the exterior of a building without fear of the product failing and fear of the pedestrians below being killed by falling building debris. Similar success can be achieved by skilled individuals doing interior construction. But, give a monkey a sheet of gypsum product and a screw gun, well, you figure the outcome.

RandyL
07-30-2004, 05:49 AM
So the moral of the story is, it will only work if installed correctly. Gee, that was easy.
Pickeral (aka walleye) is good eatin'. Yum yum. So is mudpout .......cook 'em on shore as soon as you catch them..
Alll molson is yummy too, even MOlson Golden. :)

Steven Hauser
07-30-2004, 06:45 AM
:p

T_Hulse
07-30-2004, 08:40 AM
Dave thanks for that good info. I wish we could make the production home building industry understand the drywall/vapor info you described. Thanks for the explanation on your definition of a membrane vs a barrier. Either one will suffice for this discussion though. My point was that because you require a "layer" back there at all on every wet floor & wall install, does that mean you can verify that tile & grout & thinset still allow water through, and cannot be counted on to seal anything for the average intstall? I was trying to show that we can't discount Denshield's instructions & just rely on the thinset to seal it up.
And how about your personal experience, have you seen those thousand showers with mush bottoms that were caused by moisture that penetrated a normal tile & grout install? :)

Dave Gobis
07-30-2004, 10:01 AM
Yes I have seen them, made a living 28 years replacing them before I started here. You can not put a barrier behind a gypsum panel, only a retarder.

Mike2
07-30-2004, 10:06 AM
Dave, do you happen to know what category rosin paper falls into? Retarder would be my guess.

Dave Gobis
07-30-2004, 10:26 AM
yup

cx
07-30-2004, 10:50 AM
So, Denshield has made a gypsum board with a vapor barrier on both sides, but in their case that's a good thing? Or am I misunderstanding you? :confused:

I think rosin paper might be closer to Kraft paper, which is of a different rating when wet or dry. You know if that's the case, Dave?

Dave Gobis
07-30-2004, 12:30 PM
Nope, barrier is only on one side. The perm rating on rosin can't be measured by most equipment but is in excess of 18. It hasn't had rosin in years though is enhanced to allow for limited moisture exposure and remain serviceable. It does not provide any reasonable vapor reduction. And yes, kraft paper is very similar.

John Bridge
07-31-2004, 04:24 PM
Don't like beating an old dead horse, but it has been presented to me here once more. ;)

You're claiming that one of the attributes of the Dens products is that when dropped from ten stories they won't kill a person walking below like a piece of Durock might. That's one fine damn good reason for using it. ;)

What this also is about is that if everything is done perfectly, it really doesn't matter what's behind the tile, and that it all depends on this barrier or that retarder. While the barrier is important, it shouldn't be the saving factor for the use of products which happen to be less suitable as substrates than other products -- gypsum products in general and Denshield to be specific. My thinking is to use the suitable product to begin with and then take the other precautions to boot.

My problem with Denshield is that in order to install it you must make holes in it. You then have to try to seal those holes after the fact. You also have the problem of the joints which have to be waterproofed. A better system, if you want to use wall board, is Kerdi. There is no worry about holes or seams.

In the hands of a highly skilled and astute craftsman, corregated cardboard can be a suitable material to use as a substrate -- so long at water or water vapors are not allows to invest it.

How's that cardboard box doing, Dave? ;)

John Bridge
07-31-2004, 04:30 PM
It occurs to me this thread might be better off in the Hangout. I'll do the honors. ;)

Dave Gobis
07-31-2004, 06:18 PM
John,
The box is fine.

I was refering to the fact it is used extensively for exterior cladding. Not the force of hitting someone in the head.

Damn your ornery.

Kerdi is wonderful.

Noble is wonderful.

9235 is wonderful.

Red Guard is wonderful.

Triple-Flex is wonderful.

Composeal Gold is wonderful

Ultra-Set is wonderful.

DenShield is wonderful.

And anyone I forgot is wonderful.

John Bridge
07-31-2004, 07:54 PM
:D

You know I'm just raggin' ya. You need to let loose more often.

MHI
07-31-2004, 08:02 PM
I'm not sure if anybody has noted that, in addition to not being the best product for wet areas, Den Shield is very expensive. Some places around here sell it for 23.99, 4 x 5 sheet. Durock is $10 for a 3 x 5 sheet.:)

John Bridge
07-31-2004, 08:13 PM
I haven't seen it in the 4x5 sheet. I used to see it laying around the tile warehouses in the 3x5 version. Home Depot used to sell little pieces, maybe 2x4 feet. Haven't seen much of it at all lately. :)

K_Tile
07-31-2004, 10:41 PM
This reminds me of the 1000lbs of bricks or the 1000lbs of feathers question.

If installed incorrectly which would fail faster a Denshield shower or a Kerdi shower? :D

cx
07-31-2004, 10:45 PM
Dead-ass tie, Kevin.

Go ahead, prove me wrong. :D

John Bridge
08-01-2004, 09:35 AM
CX is right. I've seen many sheetrock showers (tear 'em out all the time) that have survived for 15 years or so. Also torn out a lot of them that haven't made it that long.

I will admit I've never torn out a Denshield shower. I've never actually seen one, though. :) I'm not sure, but I don't think Denshield is recommended for full showers, is it?

I've torn out backer board showers that haven't made the ten year mark. These were mostly because the shower pan/floor/curb was not done correctly and water wicked halfway up the walls.

Kerdi? Never heard of it prior to a couple years ago. Obviously never torn one out. But there is no question it is the best system available when done correctly. A Kerdi shower is absolutely watertight right up to the shower head. You just can't do that with any other system, can you? :)

rob 223
08-01-2004, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by John Bridge


You're claiming that one of the attributes of the Dens products is that when dropped from ten stories they won't kill a person walking below like a piece of Durock might. That's one fine damn good reason for using it. ;)


:crazy: Your too funny John:p
Please keep it up
Rob

muskymike
08-01-2004, 12:12 PM
How about this, I know some guys that are using denshield with kerdi. Running the kerdi 6" up the wall off the floor and calling it good. I told them why bother just put drywall on and kerdi all the way up. No response.