View Full Version : Hardibacker vs. Duroc/Wonderboard
02-02-2002, 11:25 AM
I am sure this topic has been covered before, but couldn't find the thread. I am also sure that it will stir up controversy, except with John, who has little use for the stuff. But having done about a couple dozen bathrooms over the past couple years, and having used both, here are my observations. Someone tell me I'm off base, if I'm wrong on this:
Hardibacker: Lightweight and easy to cut. These two are the best qualities of the stuff. On the other side, if I try to screw it into studs and blocking, for some wierd reason that I can not yet explain, the backerboard backs off the stud about 1/8" or so, as I tighten it down to its final position. I like to use nails to fasten it, but on bouncy blocking, it is sometimes hard, and sometimes use screws. I can not explain why the stuff backs off, but pre-drilling the holes in the backerboard a little bigger than the screw helps. The stuff also has a bit of flex in it, and when fastening it to wavey walls, even with firing strips, I can get dips and ski slopes. The firing strips pretty much have to be right on. I do like a dead flat surface, and check the boards with a 6' level. Very frustrating.
Wonderboard/Duroc: Heavy, hard to cut, and messy. Not very forgiving if get a nail to close to the edge. Precise cuts are tough too, and I end up with tight spots and large gaps sometimes. While I strive for the factory 1/8" gap, it is usually not very easy to get the stuff that close. Now for the good stuff. Wonderboard simply doesn't flex like Hardibacker, and the walls are dead flat. Less shiming and fussy firing strips. Also, having broken up scraps for the dumpster, I notice that Hardibacker breaks easily, and Wonderboard is tough as nails. All in all, it is quicker to install, which was not what I expected.
What do you guys like, and why? Can the two be combined? Hardibacker for straight sections and Duroc for wavey wall sections? What about the screw thing?
Feel free to move this over to the back room if you care too, but thought this was of general interest. Thanks to everyone who responds.
02-02-2002, 12:24 PM
You've got me wrong. I have nothing against cement backer boards. I think they are a definite boon to the weekend warrior. Most of the people on our boards wouldn't be doing the projects they're doing without backer board.
It's just that backer boards provide no advantage at all to the experienced mud man. Dave Gobis mentions this often. In the time it takes to properly install backer board I can float the installation and be setting tile. And of course, I'll have a stronger and monolithic install when I'm finished.
Now when you say that one board or another works better over wavy studs, you're telling on yourself. Those walls are supposed to be straightened before you begin. The easiest way to do that is to nail new studs (or pieces of studs) along side the offending ones. You can get everything perfectly flat (on plane) that way.
Rob Z. has gotten really good at using a table saw to make rippers that he uses to straighten the studs and get things plumb. Less lumber but more work, and it takes a higher level of expertise.
Thats another advantage in becoming a mud man. The mud straightens all but the waviest walls. However it's done, though, you should be able to come out with walls that are flat and true.
(I'm going to move this to the Hangout.)
[Edited by John Bridge on 02-02-2002 at 06:39 PM]
02-02-2002, 02:35 PM
John, what do you mud guys use for a substrate on walls? AC Ply?
02-02-2002, 03:01 PM
I use Hardibacker exclusively now for both floors and walls. Use the 1/4" product for floors and countertops and the 1/2" product for walls. If your not using the 1/2" on walls, give it a try. It is considerably stiffer than the 1/4" board and provides a sturdier setting plane for wall tiles.
I too prefer to use nails, especially on floors, but usually use screws for wall applications. I often predrill holes with a bit slightly smaller than the screw shank, but have it set in a counter-sink bit that allows a much easier flush setting of the screw. You don't have to leave much of a "counter-sink hole" maybe a 1/16" at most and the screws flush down nicely. A little more work, but a cleaner, "bump-free" setting surface.
02-02-2002, 04:16 PM
I just nail new studs in to straighten up walls, or use a power planer to knock off any proud spots that are a problem. I usually have my compressor and nail gun set up, so it's not too much work.
I only use the rips John mentions when doing a shower pan. I use 1/4 " lattice to bring the cement board out past the pan liner .
Hardibacker hasn't sold very well in the tile stores that I frequent. They don't stock it anymore. Lowes has it, but I'm not going to Lowes for anything.
I use a grinder to cut cement board. I never could get the score and snap tool to do what I wanted. I use Utilicrete, and it is much harder to cut than Durock, so I know that is part of the problem.
If John would let me hire Albert when he retires, I would start putting more mud on walls. Until then, while I work alone, I save mud on walls for only the really bad stuff. ( I disappoint John, because I am only half a mud man) :)
02-02-2002, 04:39 PM
Rob all you have to do is offer Albert $1/hr more than John, that will bring him up to $4 :D
02-02-2002, 04:43 PM
Albert is the highest paid tile helper in Houston and I pay his major medical. With benefits included that brings him closer to $5 per hour.
Being half a mud man is better than being a half-assed mud man. :D
02-02-2002, 09:06 PM
Sorry John, I didn't know you had given him a raise. His dog having puppies an all, I guess it was the right thing to do. God bless you sir! Makes me proud to be in the construction business it does.
02-03-2002, 09:13 AM
No plywood on shower walls. Greenboard.
02-03-2002, 10:57 AM
John cheats, Scratch and float for me.
02-03-2002, 02:42 PM
You've got to be kidding. The only time I ever did that was on commercial jobs where it was specified that way.
You would not be able to compete, Dave.
02-04-2002, 06:54 AM
Not a lot of one coat in our area. I know it is common in the South. Sure makes life simple. Most of ours are scratch and finish in this area. You don't worry about competing when someone wants one, aren't many who do it. Very common on government work.
02-04-2002, 11:55 AM
I would love to be as handy as Rob with a nailer and a set of new studs along the old. I don't think I could hold a level, set the stud, hold the stud, and nail the rascal at one time.
I use 1/4" lattice for shimming studs, and apply the stuff right on the stud. Before cutting any backerboard, I check for plumb, square and straight. Straight is the most important thing. If the wall is slightly out of whack, I use drywall shims.
These things are great. They are pieces of cardboard which are about 1/16" thick that have reinforcing material in them, so they do not compress and are exactly 1.5 inches wide. They easily staple onto the studs, and you can double or triple them up.
I'll cut the backerboard, do a test fit (sometimes by nailing it in only in two places) and checking it for straight with a 6 or 8 foot level. My goal is no more than 1/16 over 6 or 8 feet. I have noticed that hardbacker compresses or bends more and no matter how straight you think it is, once you nail it home, that may change. So I keep a supply of those shims handy and find my self slipping them under the backerboard when nailing it home to keep the board straight.
It is fussy work, but my goal is an absolutely straight wall. One of these days, I will tackle a mud job on a wall. But I am mainly a carpenter, not a full time tile guy.
02-04-2002, 05:48 PM
It helps to have paws and an armspan that enables me to hold the 6'6" Stabila and a stud in one hand, and a Senco SN60 in the other.
If I was the size of, say, Kelly, I wouldn't even think of it. :)
I am also good at testing for deflection...without even jumping.
WAIT A MINUTE HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The great "Illustrious leader" of this here Forum, admits to using "GREEN BOARD?"
All of a sudden, I'm feeling a little peeked, a little squirmish, maybe distraught is the word I've been searching for.
THE MUDMEISTER OF MUD MEISTERS', uses gypsum?
Naw, I can't believe it.
Not a big believer in cement board. But believes in and uses the stuff that has "GYPSUM" in it.
Man, I gotta sit back and digest this.
And just when I had check in hand and was ready to order his book. Sorry Patty, you will just have to take it out his lunch money.
I'm telling you, this is just like a Northern labor day week-end. You just know it's over and you can't do a thing about it.
Down and Depressed in South Fla.
LL, make that a double!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
02-04-2002, 08:56 PM
Maybe now is the time for yet another of your Florida weather reports before you croak.
A dark cloud moved into the area today and.....(you finish it Chip).
02-05-2002, 04:53 AM
Chippy, old pal,
Relax, the greenboard is there when I get there. It comes in handy when you go to attach the metal lath to the walls. You have something other than thin air to staple it to. It's explained in the book.
02-05-2002, 08:14 PM
Still cheating, takes the fun out of it. Watching that batch sliding down the wall and into the tub.
02-05-2002, 08:32 PM
Yeah something just don't seem right about greenboard in this situation. Not that I've ever put mud on a wall but I just don't see it. Plywood will expand but greenboard will turn to mush, yes?
02-06-2002, 07:38 AM
Drywall won't turn to mush if you don't let it get wet. Use a moisture barrier.
It's just part of evolution. When all walls were plaster, the platerers would "scratch" the bathrooms when they scratched out the rest of the house. After the plasterers got out of the way, tile setters would come in and "brown" out the showers and then install the tiles.
When sheetrock took over, sheetrock was there when the tile setters arrived. That's all there is to it. Plywood has never been a good option.
This is all West Coast stuff. In Dave G.'s part of the world, tile setters apparently took over the scratch segment. Everywhere else, as far as I know, the scratch and float system is used only on government and some commercial jobs.
Showers built correctly with mud over sheetrock will last indefinitely. Most that I've torn out after decades have been because the shower pan (lead or something else) failed, or because it wasn't installed correctly, or because the mud work wasn't done correctly to begin with. And yes, sometimes shower pans were ommitted. And yes, sometimes mud was ommitted on the back wall, and tile was installed directly over the sheetrock in a so-called mud job.
After a number of years, decades actually, the sheetrock can deteriorate near the bottoms of the walls if the shower is not wiped down after use. And sometimes condensation becomes a factor. BUT, even if the sheetrock goes bye-bye in the lower portions of the shower, the shower will not fail. The re-inforced mortar forms the actual structure. Now when the lath rusts through and the mortar fails (because it didn't have enough cement in it), well, then the shower is done for. BUT, this will be long after all the CBU built showers being built at this moment have also developed problems IF they are not properly maintained. All showers require maintenance.
With that, I'm off to S.C.
02-06-2002, 01:25 PM
Damn...I thought he'd never leave!!!
Par-tee, par-tee, par-tee...
02-08-2002, 10:34 PM
is he gone yet?
I think he's back.
So watch out!
02-09-2002, 07:35 AM
2 Live Crew:
The float and set over sheetrock has been done out west for a long time, thirty years or better.
Sometimes you might put a membrane, 15# felt or Kraft paper up first if the inspector wanted it, but, usually hang the mud and tile it.
JB's also on the beam that the few failures that result of gypsum degrading, are usually from other problems related to pans or plumbing fixtures.
A decent tilesetter needs to be able to float and set two (2) tubbacks or one masterbath combination a day to be worth his wages.
Backerboards are gaining in popularity due to shortage of real tilesetters, due to the declining union training structures, and along with them (C.B.U.'s)the failure rate has spiked. Luckily out west you need a subcontractor license to work and the end user can sue you for loss. Most places, Florida in particular, have no license requirement so the manufacturer's are running wild making all kinds of installation recommendations without experienced salesmen , in tile installations, as the front line troops. Just because you can talk the talk, the nicked hands and aching knees mean you have walked the walk.
[Edited by chip on 02-09-2002 at 10:38 AM]
02-09-2002, 09:32 PM
I was looking forward to meeting you while at Surfaces but they told me you weren't even coming when I visited the booth. Sorry to miss you. Why weren't you there man?
Hey, the information your offering about "failure spikes" due to the use of CBU's........?
Where would I find that information? I'd be interested in seeing exactly what it is your talking about.
Information like that, being broadcast in a place like this, could be very damaging to a guy like me, that obviously isn't a decent tilesetter based on those standards.
Markets vary considerably around the country. There are few markets that measure-up to the area you must operate in. That type of volume is something tile hacks around here can only dream of.
So........please, tell me, where do I find the legitimate industry publications that authenticate the statements you are making?
02-09-2002, 10:11 PM
I'm pretty sure you can get sued whether you are licensed or not.
2 a day? Dang I'm slow! That must be why I have to charge more. I can work at a nice pace and still make a living. And you know what? My body ain't broken down and I can still walk. Hands are a bit nicked up though. ;)
02-09-2002, 10:14 PM
Oh on the gypsum failing on account of some other problem, what if gypsum wasn't used in the first place, would it still be failing?
02-10-2002, 10:09 AM
"A decent tilesetter needs to be able to float and set two (2) tubbacks or one masterbath combination a day to be worth his wages".
Seems there are always more than enough people "out there" with an opinion about what qualifies as "decent, professional, worth his/her wages, etc". When that qualification is based on nothing more than speed, is it any wonder "failures" increase? I deal with "faster" and "cheaper" on a daily basis. Quality, craftsmanship, and durability come with a price, both in terms of time and money. (Assuming there is a difference)
Someone will always do it faster, and someone will always do it cheaper. The list is long and rather unimpressive. The list of those that do it BETTER is much shorter. Thank God I'm no longer "caught-up" in "high production equals your ultimate worth" rat-race!
On the other hand, this kind of mentality does insure a continued supply of very well compensated "tearout/redo's" that involve no time concerns, only quality, and "will it last" concerns.
A quality tile installation isn't a "Big Mac"!
Hear, hear, Latney!
And I'm not just sayin' that 'cause I'm slow. :)
Well, at least that's not the only reason.
02-10-2002, 01:39 PM
Well, I don't want to get into the proverbial pissing contest with anyone, but I will offer one last bit of lore on this subject. Dale is not far off the mark. While working for my brother in Arizona years ago, my helper and I would routinely float and tile two tub backs in a day (over sheetrock). My brother paid us for eight hours to do that. Our goal was to get the job done in seven, and we often did.
Here is how we did it from time of arrival on jobsite. Both of us hustle necessary tools and supplies into the house to bath number one. Helper goes outside and prepares to mix mortar while setter wires up tub one.
Helper arrives with mud when setter finishes wiring and assists in floating tub one. Helper sets up setter with thinset and tile and removes himself to bath two.
While setter is tiling up tub one, helper wires AND FLOATS tub two.
At about the time setter is finishing tiling tub one, helper is standing in doorway asking what took so long.
Setter moves to bath two, cleans up helper's mud work, and prepares to set tile while helper is cleaning up bath one and preparing to grout. (Helper has already stocked tile and thinset in bath two.)
Helper arrives in bath two about the time setter has two walls tiled and asks once again what's taking so long.
Bath one is completely cleaned up, and helper assists in completing the tile in bath two by making cuts and handing tools to setter.
Tile setter does the grouting in bath two while helper is outside cleaning mud equipement and preparing to hit the bar.
Both setter and helper work feverishly to clean up bath two and depart for the bar.
When the eight hour mark is reached, setter and helper are already on their second pitcher.
Note: My brother didn't like broken joints. We tiled both tubs with straight joints.
It's just a different world, guys. Ask Gobis if you don't believe anyone else. Dave is fond of telling guys they should become mud men if for no other reason than that it's faster than doing backer board. Dave says, and I agree, that by the time you get your backer board up and squared away, he's gonna have the back wall tiled.
Now, let me qualify this just a little. It takes several years to get to the place where you can work that efficiently, and the helper makes or breaks you.
As far as doing a tub back and a small three-wall shower in one day is concerned, I used to be able to do it (with an excellent helper) in about 9 hours, not including the shower floor. Shower floor would take another hour.
Now, please. You can doubt and you can argue, but unless you've been there and done that, you really don't know what you're talking about. ;)
02-10-2002, 03:02 PM
If I had a helper that was as efficient/skilled as the one you describe, he would not be a helper, he would be a better "setter" than the majority calling themselves "tile setters" in the area.
I've been the hurry up and get to the next one route, and sooner or later, quality suffers, at least in most cases.
Certainly, there are exceptions. In this area, I see a alot of shortcuts taken for the sake of speed. Shortcuts that allow a 1, maybe 2 year warranty to survive, but not much else.
Your right, it is definitely a different day and time. A proper backerboard installation, especially one married to a mortar bed shower floor, is a time consuming process....DONE RIGHT! There are "crews" in this area that can "backerboard" a shower/tub surround in less than 1/2 hour. Right over drywall, no vapor barrier, with a powernailer that even hits a stud occasionally. Joints are not taped and these guys are tiling before your felt and lath are completed. They are faster than a mud job and they can complete "a bunch" of these in a day. Of course, I wouldn't want to own one of these jobs, but it can be done quickly.
Quality "mudders" that would be willing to endure the schedule you describe day in and day out, do not exist in this area. The opinion I express is based on that fact and the constant flow of crap I see done in the name of speed.
Then again, Texas is a "right to work" state, so maybe I'm comparing apples to oranges. Anyway, happy hunting.
Yeah,the speed factor never impressed me like it did other guys.The jobs I've seen where the "tilesetter" bragged about how quickly he completed it I've found decidedly unimpressive and full of flaws.
And why is it that these guys who do the work so fast never seem to have money or nice stuff as their fast tilesetting techniques seem to suggest?
For a typical tub surround,70 sq.ft. or so,an 8x10 tile let's say,I'll charge about $800 from the bare studs to finished tile.It'll take me about 10-14 hours,two easy days.This would include all the setting materials but not the tile.Not speedy at all but I've never been fast at anything except for consuming alcohol,of course.
Also,since I'm fussy,usually more so than the customer,I've never been able to work with helpers or labourers.Just can't seem to find someone to get along with when it comes to fine work.I've got enough of a hardship dealing with myself than to have to deal with some guy standing there saying"OK,now what do you want me to do?"or"What do you mean?I mixed it the same as the last time"or whatever.Or the guy who said after cleaning only the bottom of the trowel"Well,you don't use the top!".Nah,I'd rather work alone,and slowly.Hope I don't come across as a difficult guy,I've just never found someone who cares about the quality of the work like I do.
02-10-2002, 04:20 PM
Ron, there are more of us on the same page than you picture.
I don't work on any new installations, except the times we/I completely rip the guts out of an old home and start over. Still, it's renovation/restoration for me. Even when I'm called to do just a shower, I see failures. Sometimes because of materials that just won't last forever, but more often because of short-cuts taken by the previous tradesman. Probably to save time. Maybe to make more money, maybe because of time restraints. I spend two days easy doing a 32" shower stall. I charge my hourly rate, or $2000 for ripout, reinstall, finish excluding the cost of the tile. Hourly I'm cheaper, but don't come with a contract or profit. Helpers??? No thanks, just came off that road. Recently my 19 year old beauty-queen daughter has been down for the weekend to help her old man (and of course to make some money, always follow the money...) She's the best damned helper I could ever ask for. seriously!!!
Now John, I could learn to do what you've described with a little practice, and of course with an excellent helper as you said. At this hot moment I'm converting to mud work over CBU's. I do remember when I was 4 yrs, being on the site with my dad in suburbia and distinctly remember moving to three different homes in a day doing tub-surrounds and vanity splashes. One reason I remember is because one of my jobs was to get the fires going for heat in the winter. He'd send me to the next house as soon as I had the "heater" set up in the current bath. Sometimes ceramic, but I remember aluminum/copper tiles being popular then. I remember him getting really drunk and pissed on the days that he had to use mastic for the metal tiles. I remember going fishing at 3 in the afternoon and having a great time when he was floating mud and snipping ceramics.
So now here's my daughter, helping me set tile (and being damned critical of it, thank you very much), mixing mud, doing absolutely all the wet saw work and keeping all the cuts straight in her head without a piece of paper or a mark scored on the tiles. At quitting time, I mention she's now 4th generation. She thought that was way cool 'cause she had no idea of any of it. She wasn't even raised with it. As a baby, I guess she saw me build the house that she was raised in, other than that she was raised with horticulture. At 7 she was running the soil/tissue analysis in the dining room, but never had seen tile set until last month.
Oh darned, have I begun to ramble again?
any rate, the nicks and scars and callouses do count for something. there was the day that a craftsman was expected to work for a man that would take care of him and his family. Employers are hard to find nowdays.
02-10-2002, 04:26 PM
Well now that Latney and Ron have come back on this, I'll have to amend my "final" word.
When I did the things I mentioned above, other folks were already stickin shower tile to sheetrock with mastic. The houses where we did the mud tubs in a day were production houses. Production houses have always been "fast." And Arizona was and is a "right to work" State. We were non-Union.
Quality did not suffer, except we might get in a hurry on the grouting (wall tiles with white powdered grout -- easy).
Once again, it's hard to explain it to younger guys. My helper at that time was 60 years old and had been in the business for over 30 years. I was in my thirties and had been in the business only four or five years. My brothers, on the other hand (twins) had gotten into the trade not long after they got out of the service after the Second World War.
When Dale says that it was not unusual, he is correct.
Oh, Ron, I opened your letter. The work is beautiful. I'll post the pictures in the next day or so. Need to scan them in.
02-10-2002, 04:46 PM
Never heard that your brothers were twins. Is that a hereditary event? Delete if you want. Curious as always.
02-10-2002, 09:20 PM
I know all about doing them fast too. I learned from one of those mastic on greenboard type of guys. Yes they turned to mush but usually made it for 6-7 years. We did give them at least a day before grouting though.
02-11-2002, 04:33 PM
My brother Bob (still alive and kicking) was in the Navy at Pearl Harbor. He was aboard the Nevada, which was sunk. When he got out, he started in the tile business as an apprentice. From that point on he was either a forman or superintendent on large commercial jobs (including the King Dome in Seattle).
His twin brother Harold (deceased) was in the Marine Corp at Iwo Jima, Guadalcanal and other islands. Bob got Harold started as a helper. Harold's the guy who got me going.
So you see, I ALMOST have first-hand knowledge of the tile business from the Second World War forward. I can remember Harold telling me about when mastic first came out in the fifties. Mastic actually got going before thin set. Ironic?
02-11-2002, 06:57 PM
Much ado about nothing.
Two a day was not about speed.
Two a day was/is about production and the competitive world of fast track building. One coat floats are the standard and backerboard is for the less skilled tilesetters. We worked under a tasktime focus. You are paid your wages for a specific amount of time. If you finished under the tasktime you got it all, if you went over, to bad sister.
Straight up good work too. You can have speed and quality, what did Mr. Wooden use to say, "Be quick, don't hurry!"
The spike in backerboard use naturally led to mis application of product. You had mud guys trying to use the panels as an interface with the pony walls (which oftentimes were papered and the mud would roll off) and no one knew the importance of taping the joints. (Besides tape doesn't allow for an even smooth burn.)
Seriously, I ran anywhere from 75 to 100 guys and everyone thought he/she was a tile setter. You have to set the bar high and have expectations to be paying the kind of coin we did, 25 plus an hour in the 90's. These high wages and thinning talent base lead to the self-leveling countertop systems and eventually ProForm components.
Lets no get sidetracked with stories and whines about bad craftsmanship. Bad craftsmanship is everywhere and manufacturers are constantly trying to find new products and methods to help bridge these talent gaps. The real value of good craftsmanship is to support new methods of value and buy/use the best products, not just the cheapest.
Whew, preached to much already.
Enjoy the flame up mentality.
You can be really fast and still do fine work. I can do that with a couple trades(not tile) but not with the others..after all you have to learn to walk before you can run.
02-11-2002, 09:50 PM
what are you charging for the advertisements, so willingly offered by the "All knowing"?
02-12-2002, 05:22 PM
You, above all people, know that I don't allow advertising on my site, and you won't find a banner one anywhere on it.
But . . . I do allow anyone who wants to, to hawk his product on these boards. In fact I encourage it. It puts the person (and his product) in the spotlight, in the "hot seat," as it were, and holds him to the scrutiny of the people who happen to wander into this place.
It also gives ME the opportunity to shoot holes in things I don't think are worthwhile. It just happens that most manufacturers choose not to be held to the scrutiny the Internet subjects them to. They don't care to get into a one-on-one.
So no, I don't accept paid commercials here, but I do accept anything that anyone wants to say.
02-12-2002, 09:55 PM
boy, I can verify that!!.
02-14-2002, 06:19 AM
I share many of you guys' opinions on helpers and job quality etc, and this topic kind of makes me appreciate my only fulltime helper, Steve(my brother). He'll work long hours with no complaint and learns fast. But most important ... he does every job as though it is his own personal project and takes absolute pride. I remember when I first taught him to tile tub surrounds ..... I thought he was going to put his fist through the tiled wall so many times because he just couldn't get the lines straight, and I don't know how many times tiles flew out the closest window and into the next county because of his anger. Medication was definately not out of the question .... but now he knows what he's doing and has all the confidence and patience needed to become a quality tile setter .... and a valuable asset to my performance. :)
02-14-2002, 04:22 PM
Buy Steve some shoes, and get him a decent bucket. :D
02-15-2002, 06:47 AM
Geez John .... you're asking for too much. :D
02-15-2002, 08:08 AM
Better be careful John, Albert will want a pair too.
02-15-2002, 09:33 AM
Send him down here, I've got shoes, buckets, screeds and medications (aside from the normal hot lunches that I cook and serve).
Girls in this city are hot, and they have more money than god.
Pay is negotiable, meaning negotiable, i.e. as to whether or not you get any. Pay that is.:)
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