Perspective

[smee]

I spend a gross amount of time studying Military History - I just wanted to offer this in light of some of the history forum posts becoming more focused on politics.

examples:

790bc Ethiopians conquer Egypt

753bc Rome is built - we all know what's to come. Conquest on the grandest scale.

539bc Cyrus takes Babylon

332 Alexander "The Great" (conquerer that is) arrives in Egypt.
And it isn't for vacation.

264bc
219bc Punic Wars
149bc

102-100bc Julius Ceasar is born

58bc Julius begins the Conquest of Gaul

636ad Muslims take Syria

711ad Muslims take Southern Spain

732ad Charles Martel defeats Muslims at Poitiers

749ad Breakup of Arab Empire begins

800's ad Norseman begin expansion - which means they invade, kill, pillage, plunder and stay.

1016ad Canute becomes king of England

1066ad William invades conquers England - almost completely wipes out Anglo Saxon way of life.

1095
1147 first, Second, Third Crusades
1189

1325 Aztecs defeat Toltecs begin expansion

1519 Cortez wipes out Aztecs

1547 Ivan "The Terrible" becomes Czar of Russia.

1644 Manchus "end" Ming dynasty

1768 British Troops "occupy" Boston

Yeah, so what's my point. I have a couple;

'Occupy' 'end' 'conquer' 'defeat' 'invade' 'take' - just words?
And this little list - just a few examples. Huge events. Some critically changing the course of history.

How about meditating on that a little bit. What is happening today - well, what had also permeated the 20th century is timeless - warfare.

What is happening today has happened since prehistoric man. In every culture in every time in history. I think if one studies history - one can gain a little perspective on the events we're living in today. Many things change - and yet there are some that do not.

If we believe that we can 'cure' war - we are nuts. We can curb it, perhaps. We can police it at best. But, it is always poised, always at the ready.

Conflict is part of our humanity - whether we can accept it or not.

btw - this has absolutely nothing to do with culpability - or my personal abhorrence of war. I'm not making this about one man or one conflict. I'm trying to illustrate the scope of warfare.
This is about history and sociology - not politics or personal opinions.

we have to politicize - but we can also be very versed in the realities of the distant and the very recent past.

here's a link in case anyone is interested.

http://www.historicaltimeline.com/ht_wars.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
okay - I know I'm probably going to get flamed....
be at it then :)

[Sponsored Links]

[John Bridge]

Flamed? What did you say that flamable? ;)

[smee]

I guess nothing. No one wants to touch it ;)

[John Bridge]

Well, I agree with you. :)

[Steven Hauser]

What exactly are you trying to illustrate.

I mean there are several conflicts not mentioned.

The salient question for you is-- Are you implying that humanity does not evolve?

;)

[LadyGodiva]

Smee,

Very interesting. I'm kind of nervous about a big teacher's exam I have to take tomorrow, so I'll be getting back here. Right now my mind is a blank... hope it won't be tomorrow!!!:confused: :confused:

[jjwq8]

Linda,
I understand your concern that we are perhaps placing a little too much emphasis on current affairs of late, but at no other time have we been afforded such an opportunity, and the means to exercise it, to discuss history as it happens.
Of course war is an immutable facet of our lives. If we are extremely lucky, we get to live out our lives without having to participate in one or have one on our doorstep or in our neighbourhood.
In times of frustration it has been mentioned that the US seems incapable of passing even a single generation without participating in or finding a reason to start a war.
War has always been fought on a single premise. It is exceptionally good business.
It is paid for with lives that cost the protagonists nothing, and taxes, that again cost the protagonists nothing but are an additional impost upon amongst others, the families of those that die because their personal sacrifice is never enough.
Everything supplied for war is a write-off. If it makes it back in one piece that is an added bonus.
Time was when the leaders could actually have cared less if they had any real surviviors from their last apocolyptic battle. Fewer battle hardened dis-enchanted killers to worry about in the resulting peace.
I hope for all our sakes that war does not become the sole topic of the history forum.

[John Bridge]

Well, I've heard since I began looking into history that the only way to study it is to concentrate on the wars, but I don't think that's entirely correct. In my area of American History the focus would be on our Revolutionary War, but I've danced around that for years and read mostly about the politics of the era in question, the founding of the nation. I think there are three main facets of history that probably need attention: war, politics and religion. And religion shapes politics, and politics bears on warfare.

[LadyGodiva]

Today I took an exam that is required for teaching. It was one of a three part exam that is needed for certification in Oklahoma. Though this has nothing to do with the present topic, I have to say that because we're at war with Iraq, many people are talking about 'war' these days. And they should! It's happening as we speak...type.

Anyway, I reached the designated area for testing about 30 minutes early (very un-Caribbean I might add), and sat with a group of folks who were talking about Iraq. It was a relatively peaceful discussion considering that I was amongst them (don't make any snide remarks JJ, or I'll definitely order your head on a platter)!!:D

The thing that struck me though was the look in one lady's eyes as she told the story about her nephew. He died recently in Iraq. She at first wanted to cancel taking the exam but decided to do so because in his last correspondence to her, he discussed the upcoming exam and what a difference she would make in the lives of our children. So she was taking the exam in his honour. It's on our minds... in our hearts... on the news.... just about everywhere.

So that's why I think we cannot avoid talking about war... or wars. I'm sure the VietNam vets are also thinking about their experiences.

Hopefully, it won't last as long as VN.

[jjwq8]

John,
you overlooked that historically religion has been the cause of more wars than politics.

Eli,
True perspective.

[John Bridge]

<<And religion shapes politics, and politics bears on warfare.
>>

I think maybe I didn't say it emphatically enough. ;)

Or maybe you want to cut out politics and get right down to the nitty gritty? :D

[jjwq8]

Fair point, I was thinking more of the crusade type of dust-up :D

Once again it is very early morning and I am not wearing my reading glasses. :bang:

[John Bridge]

In the case of our revolution, though, I think you'll have to agree that politics drove the war. Same thing with the two "great" wars of recent history. I think modern warfare is driven by politics. By "modern" I refer to wars having taken place since the Renaissance. ;)

The muslims may talk about jihad or a holy war, but politics is at the base of it. If they agreed with the politics, they wouldn't be spouting off about warfare of any sort.

[smee]

Stephen - I am well aware that I chose only a few conflicts over a broad timeline. I left out far more than I listed. I was merely illustrating the point that in all times in history the very subject we are struggling with today is and has been endemic. I have no doubt we are evolving - and I have no doubt that what makes us evolve, what makes us human is both our incredible way of adapting and our myriad failings. War is the great failing in all of us.

As far as the focus on the situation at hand, jeremy, i'm not against it. I was just trying to level out the playing field. I think we forget about the broad nature of ourselves. I truly believe there are great personal lessons and societal lessons to be found in studying History across the board.

Eli - I have had friends over in Iraq. I had friends in Somalia. I had friends in the Twin Towers. I think war has come close enough to me. I feel for every single person who is there, and each one of them left here to try to live through it also.

In general terms I agree with John about the causes of modern war. I often think Religion is a facade to politics - a simple explanation. Politics is a very different animal all together - but I believe it's the protagonist.

[jjwq8]

No arguement there Linda, just taking the overall view.

One of the lines that sticks in my mind was uttered by Abol Hassan Bani Sadr, the first Irani President after the Shah.

"Oh Islam, what sins we commit in thy name."

[John Bridge]

Well then if we are evolving slowly into less-dangerous creatures -- less war-like -- there should come a day when we all reach that perfect state of Nirvana wherein there is no hostility, no fighting, no warfare.

What the hell are we gonna do for exitement?

:D

[jjwq8]

That's what and Edna and Bungee jumping are for :D

[John K]

Hypothetically speaking. What if the USA said the heck with all of you. Pulls out of Iraq after the keys to power are handed over, and refuses to police anymore? Doesn't get invoved in any conflicts overseas, creates hydrogen running automobiles and concentrates all of the attention here at home.

What effects would this have world wide, politically and economically?

New forum. JB Forums " Think Tank".:)

[jjwq8]

I suspect you may be deafened by the sigh of relief and the ensuing silence:D

Could you guarantee to completely withdraw from all conflicts. Stop arming one or both sides. Re-educate your congress to stop projecting US strategic goals outside your own borders? Stop enforcing democracy where the recipients of your political largesse are insufficiently mature to recognize democracy as a bonus? :D

[John K]

Jeremy,

Really.. Do you think in the long term it would be viable? Lets just look at this from a neutral viewpoint.

How would this effect the world economically? We would still trade with other countries. The defense budget would be less, but surely some country would eventually try to challenge us on our own soil. So military would still be a must.

In the big picture. What would happen? I would guess that any individual country or group would eventually conquer the weak and spread across Europe and Asia like the plague. What do you think??:)

[jjwq8]

The french did that already :D

[Shaughnn]

Dang Jeremy, Now that you've brought the French into this, we may never hear the end of things. :D
Shaughnn

[smee]

yeah, let's not forget the romans, mongols and the germans.....

before the philipine issue - America was geared to be just that John. Neutral. Seems fate (?) otherwise known as politics in this case and the natural resources we are graced with geographically changed all that. And bam - in one century we became the pivot point of the world. Can you go back?

nice thought - interesting to suppose. But the world is very small now and everyone else has nukes. That's a problem. They couldn't invade us - but they could all bomb the _____ out of us.

prolly wouldn't be good to slam the door on the nut cases running other countries out there.

I will say however, why our technology isn't trying SO hard to create no oil vehicles and promoting them is INSANE. It's time is coming - and I really wish they'd get it into the market place.

it's happening, very slowly.

[John K]

Linda,

I heard recently that BMW has created a hydrogen fueled vehicle...:)

[jjwq8]

It wasn't recent and it was called the Hindenberg :D

[smee]

OMG jeremy - now THAT was funny :D

John - Yes, I did read that many car manufacturers are working toward offering more hybrids.

In Kahlifornia - The Govnah is trying to pass an initiative that Hybrid owners can drive in the car pool lanes. And I do know that you get tax breaks if you own one.

I know it'll happen - I'm just surprised it's not coming a little faster. we have the technology.

oh and hey, did you hear about the scientist that made oil out of pig dung? (this is not a joke) seriously?

wonder if that'll catch on? ;)

[jjwq8]

Linda,

Just think how sweet a payback that would really be :D

[Mike Nelson]

Maybe some of you will remember this, the US was keeping its nose out of things in Europe and then.... DECEMBER 7, 1941....

[LadyGodiva]

Originally posted by Mike Nelson
Maybe some of you will remember this, the US was keeping its nose out of things in Europe and then.... DECEMBER 7, 1941....


My Dad was talking about that just last week Mike.

[John K]

Very good point Mike. They had to awaken the sleeping giant, didn't they?:)

[smee]

Mike - actually, the US was not neutral in general - they were neutral towards WWII. However look back a little farther - The US was indeed neutral - wanted to build itself as such, but alas politics and the powerbrokers decided that the philipines were looking too good to pass up.

[Hobbit]

Mike, LG, John K, Smee...et.al.

We discussed Dec. 7th some time back and there was quite a lot of good commentary.

Try this...http://johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4377

It is a fascinating period of time.

:)

[sdaniels7114]

The qusetion I've been asking myself lately is where does one separate religious fervor from patriotism? I was raised in the seventies, in the city of Boston. Back then, it was move to the suburbs, or send the kids to the nuns for education. I've since learned so much about bussing and the tiny role my hometown played back then.

I've managed to un-indoctrinate myself from Catholicisim, but there's too many references to patriotism to ignore or avoid it. I love America. How does that weaken me? Do we have to wait for the aliens or some other species to arrive before we see each other as equals?


Does anyone have any Scotch?

[John Bridge]

The two have never been entwined for me, Steve. Patriotism can very well be a secular matter. That's the way I like it. :)

[sdaniels7114]

I don't believe the two are connected exactly, I wonder if patriotism isn't a religion all by itself.

[smee]

hi Howard!

I was referencing the 1850's to 1890's period in American History when we 'started' getting involved. the cuban issue that led to the spanish american war which led to gaining the philipines, guam and I forget what else.

There was a huge fight in capitol hill over the 'expansionist' issue. America was isolationist up to then. The the 'expansionists' wanted to....well....expand. It was a turning point in the history of the US which is directly related to what we are today.

the events of today are usually preceeded by events long before we were born. Wars are always effects of earlier even much earlier conflicts, as was WWII.

Anyhoo - couple interesting easy reads "The Guns of August"
"The Proud Tower" - although the guns of august talks of the world in the quarter century leading to WWI and the Proud Tower related the events to WWI - they illustrate how much these events telegraph WWII.

ain't history great!!!!!
:D

[jjwq8]

Steve,

Think about what you just said.

You're preaching Communism there son and the Karma Ghost of Mr. McCarthy is now on your shoulder.

[sdaniels7114]

Originally posted by jjwq8
Steve,

Think about what you just said.

You're preaching Communism there son and the Karma Ghost of Mr. McCarthy is now on your shoulder.

Aren't Commies even more likely to love their country? It's not like they have any material possessions to love. I'm developing a distrust for any "isms." Capitalism included. Too much George Carlin on HBO I think.

[Derek & Jacqui]

When we were in Germany we worked with many differrant nationalities including Russians, Poles, Turks, Hungerians, Czechs plus a few others and found that pople are the same the world over - it's goverments that mess it up

[jjwq8]

Steve

I just bought Napalm and Silly Putty by George Carlin.

Knowing nothing of his humour or his work, I am finding one or two quips that have me laughing aloud.

Are his HBO shows as littered with the F word as his writing?

I particularly liked the Bovine Feces Trilogy. :D

[sdaniels7114]

Yep Jeremy, he loves the F bomb.

[flatfloor]

JJ do a search "George Carlin 7 words" ol George made it to the Supreme Court.

[jjwq8]

OK

Been there, done that, read the transcript.

What was George using at the time? If that is the transcript of a completely sober individual then I have to agree with something else George said. He needs to be quarantined immediately.

I frankly find US broadcast laws puritanically ludicrous.

Your news stations are free to air high speed car chases that create all sorts of mayhem often ending in violent death, or hostage crises that involve multiple shootings in vivo, but if someone on the scene turns to the camera and says,
"This is f*&^ed up!" ,
and the the editors somehow forget to edit the offending word out, the FCC will censure and fine the broadcaster?

WHAT THE F*** is that about?