Rwanda...

[LadyGodiva]

Who's to blame?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3602859.stm

West 'guilty' over Rwanda genocide

A decade after genocide, Rwanda is slowly recovering.

KIGALI, Rwanda -- Western powers bear "criminal responsibility" for Rwanda's 1994 genocide because they did not attempt to stop it, the commander of the U.N. peacekeeping force in the country at the time has said.

"The international community didn't give one damn for Rwandans because Rwanda was a country of no strategic importance," General Romeo Dallaire told a conference in Kigali marking the 10th anniversary of the slaughter.

"It's up to Rwanda not to let others forget they are criminally responsible for the genocide," he said, singling out France, Britain and the United States.

"The genocide was brutal, criminal and disgusting and continued for 100 days under the eyes of the international community."

Rwanda's genocide began on the night of April 6, 1994, after the shooting down of a plane carrying the Rwandan and Burundian presidents, who both died in the crash near Kigali.

Nearly one million Tutsis and Hutu moderates were butchered by Hutu extremists in 100 days of brutal and unrestrained violence.

The 57-year-old Canadian general is making his first return visit to the central African country since 1994 to talk about his memories of the bloodshed and make recommendations for future peacekeeping missions.

Dallaire was commander of a small U.N. peacekeeping force already in Rwanda when the genocide began. Months earlier he had raised the alarm in an SOS to the United Nations.

He suffered post traumatic stress syndrome, and remains haunted by the fact that his alarm was ignored, and angry at what he calls the world's callous characterization of the Rwanda genocide.

He told CNN's Christiane Amanpour: "Rwanda was tribalism. They simplified it. Let black Africans do that and when they are finished we'll pick up some of the pieces.

"I don't think there's any justification for what happened, it was a shameful episode for collective shame."

Dallaire battled for a more robust U.N. peacekeeping mission with a mandate to stop the killings, but Security Council members voted instead to cut his force from 2,500 troops to 450 poorly trained and ill-equipped men.

Dallaire said on Tuesday events in Somalia in 1993, when 18 U.S. troops supporting a U.N. peace mission were killed and one of their bodies was dragged through the streets, had created a "fear of casualties" in the West.

Rwandan President Paul Kagame called Dallaire "a good man caught up in a mess" at the opening of a conference on genocide prevention on Sunday, launching a week of memorial events.

Kagame led the rebel army which ousted the extremist Hutu government that planned and carried out the three months of mass killings initially ignored by world leaders.

[Sponsored Links]

[LadyGodiva]

I guess this one is too hot to touch?:confused:

[John Bridge]

Not to hot to touch, Eli. It's just sort of a toughy. When you've been accused of killing a million people it's hard to conjure up a defense. :)

I think we could be blamed for the brutality throughout the world, for allowing it to happen.

[Hobbit]

Eli...

I would like to discuss Rwanda with you or any one else...but the discussion always takes a course that ends up in a political debate. I've been waiting for someone who is willing to discuss this issue and others like it (there are plenty of them) with a reasoned approach. Even if we don't like it, there are reasons that these things happen. We need to understand that.

So, tell me what you think. We will discuss it.;)

This is really a good topic for the History forum! What do you say we move it there??

:):)

[jjwq8]

I'll happily discuss this if someone can first explain to me exactly how and why I am responsible for endemic brutality in a country I have never been to and have no desire to visit.

There was a piece on the BBC yesterday of a memorial to the victims that consisted of a display of the lime coated cadavres dug up from a mass grave. Is that enlightened? How does that pay respect to those who died?

My perceptions are entirely media driven, and the only time Africa is referenced is to describe a new famine, a new war, a new brutal dictator or the effects of totally inept indigenous governance, each of which are invaribly blamed upon the white colonial legacy.

You cannot move forward or plot a course when your eyes are glued permanently to the rear view mirror.

[John K]

Eli,

We can't be everywhere and police everything. I would have to guess that entering into a peace keeping position in a full on tribal war would not have been easily digested by the American people. The losses would have been enormous.

[jjwq8]

Why even bother trying? If you have opposing sides hell bent on savagery, then no amount of policing will keep the peace.

Going in to impose a solution militarily will never have legitimacy in the eyes of the protagonists and will simply defer the inevitable.

Man's inhumanity to his fellow sapient beings knows no bounds and sadly whatever genetic quirk allows us to behave thus has an all too often habit of resurrecting itself on the very continent where said sapient beings first walked off the veld.

[LadyGodiva]

I think what I find confusing and puzzling is why the West is always being blamed for the misfortunes of others. I'm not trying to defend anyone, but just looking at the history of the Caribbean, and knowing the attitude of its people, I know that we tend to have this tendency of asking for help, and once it gets there and things have turned around for the better, we want you out!

I know this is about Rwanda, but I was reading some of the posts on the other forum today, and they are going on about the Americans and British being totally responsible for the ills of the world... Rwanda, Haiti, Grenada, Iraq etc. some of these are pretty obvious (don't know why or what we're doing in Iraq), but Grenada was in a mess before the US invasion. Haiti is a total mess, and yes, from what I've read, the US and others have been responsible for aiding certain misfits into power, but once again they were called in to help bring some sort of stability to the island. What would happen if we just did like Nancy Reagan and "just said no"!

For example, I read also that CARICOM (group of Caribbean nations) would not want the Haitians on their door step, but they think it's okay for them to come to the US. Now why is that? Yet, Americans are going to be criticised for not giving enough aid once they get here, or not accepting the entire lot. However, the Caribbean isn't in a hurry to help their brothers, are they?

Now about Rwanda. From what I understand, the West did seem to play a part in the conflict between to the two ethnic groups there, but who carried out the crimes? Are Africans never to be blamed for anything on this planet? Is it only the white man's fault once again? One member on my Trini forum said that the white man has the sins of all generations on his hands, and that he would have to answer to his God. I asked him whether Africans were totally innocent throughout history. Give Africans the same power that Europeans had way back when, and they would have been running the slave trade using whites as slaves. Human nature to conquer and destroy I suppose.

Am I going on and off topic here? I'm sick in bed today but couldn't resist a little TLC (online browsing). Now isn't that sick?
:D

P.S. One post on the Trini forum was that Spain was paying for their sins (slave trade/conquering lands), and that's why they were attacked recently. 9/11 was pay back time for Americans... so I had to ask as usual whether the slavery was pay back time for Africans for some misdeed they did way, way, back. I was told off in words that I wouldn't dare utter (being a lady and all that) :)

I love this forum. It's so much more....civilised:) :D :

[jjwq8]

Yeah and it's driving me CRAZY :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[John Bridge]

When I get into this I always end up looking bad, because I think it has to do with Africa and blacks. I think that intelligence is learned through generations, just as IQ can be improved by learning. There has never been much of a knowledge base in Black Africa. I'm sorry, but I think they are way behind in the learning and intelligence department as a whole. That doesn't mean what certain people will accuse me of saying. It doesn't mean there are not smart black people. :)

[LadyGodiva]

Actually John, a professor friend of mine was saying something along those lines just yesterday. I don't think it's being racist at all. When you look at Africa and certain countries around the world (Caribbean) is a prime example, you have to wonder about certain groups and their capabilities as a whole.

Trinidad & Tobago has a larger portion of East Indians (42%) I believe. In general, the Indians tend to work and prosper on the the island, and though some families work in the market place, drive taxis, and are involved in farming, they send their children abroad to become doctors and lawyers, teachers etc. This is not to say that some blacks are not doing the same. However, if you look into the number of poor areas in Trinidad and its inhabitants, they are predominantly black. They have the same number of chances to improve themselves, yet we can't seem to get past the slavery and white man keeping them back. In Trinidad, the problem is even worse now because the Indian population has grown from 32% in my time to what it is today. There is paranoia by some that the Indians will take over the island! We do have Syrians, Lebanese, French and Portuguese as well, and they too tend to do well. But it wasn't always that way. Many of the Europeans came to the islands with very little money, and they started going from door to door selling cloth, shoes etc. As they built a little money, they made sure that their children were educated.

Our first Prime Minister was a black Trinidadian by the name of Dr. Eric Williams. Well educated gentleman, who took on the role of being the PM in a time when most people had no idea what it meant to be independent. I think that somewhere along the line, the black people in T'dad felt that he would be giving them hand outs. There was utter chaos as I had mentioned previously in another post, and to make a long story short, Dr. Williams soon became disenchanted with his people. My brother worked briefly with him before he died, and he was shocked to hear Dr. Williams referring to the people outside his home as 'hooligans' and 'savages.' As a black man, he could not understand this idea of wanting everything for free, as he had to work very hard to accomplish the things he did in his lifetime. His daughter married an American (white) and lives in Florida. Another reason why he was later called a racist by his own kind:bang: :D

[jjwq8]

How many educated Africans or even Caribs, elect to stay in their country of birth? Indeed, how much of an education can they get?

[LadyGodiva]

Our education system was modelled after the British system, and in my time, was an excellent system. It's changed somewhat in the last 10+ years as the natives wanted something that was their own, and not the 'oppressors' system. Only problem is that that they are having more and more students coming out of school unable to read/write at an appropriate level.

There was and still is a brain drain problem. The University of the West Indies is a top class institution with only the top 10% of the nation attending. Whereas in the States we have every Tom, Dick and Jane (gotta add a lady there) entering and leaving still 'uneducated' in my opinion. I'm a tutor at my college in town so I know what I see every day :).

Read the following and you'll better understand the problems they are facing with education. We have some scholars who studied in the US (black scholars), and then they return and spend most of their time poisoning the minds of the youths with their race rage. Dr. Job is a black Trini, but one I admire. He tells it like it is. He has been accused of being brain washed by the Europeans.


Dr Morgan O Job


Descent into decadence

Hundreds of thousands of healthy five-year-olds were put into the hands of TTUTA members. Children were not brain damaged at birth, yet emerged at age 11 illiterate. TTUTA members were paid billions to teach those children to read! The PNM boasted for decades that the jewel in their crown was free education. Scores of thousands of those illiterate 11-year-olds were shunted along to PNM free junior secondary schools (some to prestige schools). They emerged after billions paid to TTUTA members illiterate. TTUTA advises children not to listen to Dr Morgan Job’s “half of the truth.”

No one in TTUTA or in the PNM defended the poor victims of the manifest destruction of innocent children during the past 30 years, as did Morgan Job. President Maxwell Richards lamented the disaster. I asked: where was Professor Richards during the years I tried to mobilise public opinion to stop exploitation of the ignorance and illiteracy of the victims of our schools, to implement projects to save children from life long damage?

I have always praised the parents and teachers of the less than 10 per cent of our students who get five or more CXC passes every year. Mr Oliver must get a copy of my CD Commentaries available at bookshops. The success of the few cannot compensate for the disaster destroying the majority.

The TTUTA representative, like too many teachers, cannot tell a child to consider the quantity of a statement: whether it is a universal or a particular.

Consummate mimic men spraying the effluent of shallow American Black studies propaganda to imprison children in ignorance or illiteracy tell students “Do not listen to Dr Job’s half truths”!

Plato said “arguments, like men, are often pretenders.” The psychologically persuasive fallacies of TTUTA propaganda are directed, not at Dr Job’s statements, but at Dr Job.

Mrs Hazel Manning put an advertisement in the newspapers boasting that T&T students did better at CXC mathematics than students of Grenada, Union Island, Bequia, and Barbuda. Her husband’s Vision 2020 had not informed her. She must tell us how her students compared with those of Japan, Singapore, Sweden, Taiwan or Denmark?

She must tell us much it cost to produce an innumerate, illiterate CXC graduate. Must we blame the generations of illiterate parents who vowed to “dead a PNM” while abusing Dr Job for demanding that quality education be delivered to their children?

TTUTA members are part of the explanation of our descent into decadence. Innumeracy is not simply a problem of delinquent parents or PNM political profit from illiteracy. The different performance of labeled ethnic groups is a disaster Selwyn Cudjoe and Minister Rowley insist must be solved by targeting “Africans.” They ignore Dr Job’s advice over decades: more cooperation of parents at primary school, better trained teachers, thinking environment at school, manners (please, thank you, good morning Miss), proper dress code, be on time (especially teachers), speak English (especially teachers), use Cutteridge’s First Primer to teach letter sounds, expect children to acquire knowledge, test and grade them frequently, etc.

The Black studies special pleaders refuse to ask why Igbo businessmen are called “the Jews of Africa.” African refugee children in the UK perform as well as Indians or Chinese. Our businessmen must do more to privatise every aspect of our education to liberate poor children from trade union monopolist special interests unwilling or unable to teach children the fallacies of logic.

Indian and Chinese students have brains wired exactly like others who cannot compete with them. There is no secret to the success of Jewish children.

Denis Solomon told me that there are at least two research papers at UWI alleging that Indo-Trinidadian children make a greater effort to master English than Afro-Trinidadians imprisoned in dub.

It is the British colonial legacy of instructing Indians from childhood in English, not knowledge of Hindi, which explains the remarkable facility of Indian students to adapt to science graduate schools in the UK and North America. Asians are four per cent of students in the USA, but are at least 25 per cent of freshmen at Stanford or MIT. Unofficial quotas (for Blacks, Hispanics) may explain why there are not more Asians.

Sat Maharaj is not mimicking Black studies conmen to tell Hindu children “English is the oppressor’s language.” The Maha Sabha has much fewer than 10 per cent of primary schools. Each year at least 10 per cent of the students on the first 100 SEA places are its children. Culture is the explanation.

“Deficiencies start at kindergarten and persist through the school years. Contrary to stereotypes, the high achievements of Asians are the result of motivation to learn; teaching is innovative and interesting. Children have a positive attitude toward academics. Asian mothers say that their children’s primary task is to do well in school. Mothers find it difficult to be satisfied with moderate levels of performance,”—Scientific American, December 1992 (Prof HW Stevenson U of Michigan).

The empirical evidence refutes the class-size claptrap, a shibboleth: small class sizes do not compensate for cultural defects and Asian children in much larger classes than Americans outperform the Americans when evaluations are controlled for relevant factors.

Some TTUTA members symbolise arrogance coupled with ignorance, as activists animated by incomplete knowledge, unable to speak or write English competently, have struggled to pass mathematics and hate it, yet claim authority on the basis of their passionate devotion to zealotry or loyalty to narrow, provincial causes.
_________________

[DVM]

Seems like teachers are the same all over..the cure for our educational system is to throw money at it (of course if some sticks to the teacher that's a good thing).

I wonder how many folks in their 50s and 60s attended a school where 40 to 50 children was the normal class size. The more we improve education the worse it gets.

It wasn't broken why did we fix it?

Sorry, I think that rant ties in somehow.

[John Bridge]

I attended classes of 30-plus students. Typical class size was 28-32, and some high school courses had 40 or so. Some also had fewer than 20.

We've had a mandate in Texas for years that class size be limited to 22 in elementary schools. Doesnt mean much because most school districts have not been able to sustain it.

Back on track: One of my sons attends a private school where the top performer in his class is a black girl whose mother and father are from Trinidad. :)

[LadyGodiva]

YAYYYYYY!!!!:D Oh, that's for John's comment btw.

Of course the kid is going to do well... look at where his folks are from:D

My two children have been on the honour roll at their schools for ages now... not trying to boast... or maybe I am???;) :D

[jjwq8]

Eli, this is now crossing over to the other thread you started recently.

From everything you say I am amazed that anyone with an education would ever elect to stay in a country where such endemic bigotry is allowed to go unchallenged.

[LadyGodiva]

JJ, Now I need to get this thread back on the topic! I see you're trying to pull me up about it, so I guess I will have to oblige:D

What was the topic about anyway? Ah yes, Rwanda.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3611733.stm



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/3582011.stm


Well according to the last link, Satan was to blame in part...

[John Bridge]

Well, I really can't add anything further. What can be said? :)

[jjwq8]

And what has happened to this self confessed murderer?

The devil made me do it?

So that's all right then.

Forgive him, poor dear, give him counselling, give him an aide package and send him on his way.

Give me a break.

Find a hole, throw him in and backfill the sob.

[LadyGodiva]

11th April, 2004

Hutus 'attacked Rwanda village'

By Robert Walker
BBC correspondent in Kigali



Remnants of Hutu militias crossed into DR Congo after the genocide
Rwanda's army says it has repulsed an attack by Hutu rebels from neighbouring Democratic Republic of Congo.
A military official said at least 16 rebels were killed attempting to attack a Tutsi village inside Rwanda's border.

Rwanda is currently commemorating the 10th anniversary of the genocide in which some 800,000 people, mainly Tutsis, were killed by Hutu militias.

Remnants of the militias regrouped after the genocide in Congo, from where they continue to operate.

Details about the rebel attack, which occurred late on Thursday night, are only now emerging.

The head of Rwanda's armed forces, Major General James Kabarebe, told the BBC a force of some 250 Hutu rebels crossed into north-west Rwanda with the aim of killing Tutsis.

But he said they were intercepted by the Rwandan army, and at least 16 rebels were killed.

Wounded

General Kabarebe said the insurgents then fled back into DR Congo, carrying a number of wounded with them.

The attack appears timed to coincide with commemorations marking the 10th anniversary of the genocide, and it is seen as an indication of the rebels' intention to fight on.


Last year their military leader surrendered and returned to Rwanda, raising hopes that others would follow.

But instead, a more hardline leadership has now taken command.

The Rwandan government estimates there are still up to 20,000 rebels.

They include members of the extremist Hutu militias who fled to Congo after participating in the genocide.

Previous attempts by the rebels to infiltrate Rwanda were crushed by the Rwandan army, but human rights groups reported widespread army abuses against civilians in the process.


I thought this was going to be over? Wasn't there a lot of coverage showing these people commemorating the Anniversary of the genocide??? Good grief!

[jjwq8]

I told you so :shake:

[LadyGodiva]

JJ, I should have listened!

They blamed the West didn't they? So I figured if we quit pushing these people to kill each other, things would be different...

Just goes to show you how gullible I've become in Okieville, USA.

[jjwq8]

It is a great pity that the continent has only commodities that are not of immediate inportance so that it onlys pops up when a dsiaster that could have been ameliorated is beyond redemption.

And make no mistake, it is BLACK on BLACK and the side complaining loudest is the one that couldn't afford the biggest bang for the buck, for which they then blame the NEO IMPERIALIST/COLONIALIST Whites.

[LadyGodiva]

You're right on target JJ. I saw on the other forum just who is to blame for everything on this planet...gosh, I'm sure glad I'm only an Island girl:D

[jjwq8]

Now someone can do something for me.

Find out how many non anglos work for the same neo-imperialist/colonialist multi nationals that are the scourge of the poor down trodden masses of Africa and elsewhere and how many hold management positions , oh yes and who hold what shares in said corporations?

[LadyGodiva]

Ummm...JJ, I'm working on that info for you... except that I'm an island girl and I tend to take my time doing things.. how soon would you need this most important info? Manana?

Eli;)

[smee]

Last night I watched a program that is aired on PBS called "Frontline". It was about Rwanda.

It was chilling and riveting, powerful and overwhelming. It's a very good, well presented view. It's on PBS - and they do re-air often. Try to find it in your local listings.

I like to say;

First of all - with there having been some echos mentioned about the holocaust (it was mentioned in the frontline program) - if all of us as people - just people - think that a genocide like the holocaust and Rwanda and even more atrocious things cannot happen again - we are being incredibly naive.

As difficult as it is to accept - these are people doing these things. Yes, animals - but they are people. So, people have an enormous capacity to good and an enormous capacity to bad. It has always been - it will always be.

I think it's how the world collectively is prepared to deal with it that will make its mark.

Remember, although our world to us today seems natural - we are in a process of changing to a world view. The world is becoming incredibly small - it is only in the last hundred years that this has happened, and it's accelerated in the last 25 yrs at a rate countries, governments, ethnicities and societies are struggling to adjust to.

If we want to stop these types of things happening - the UN has to have more power and there has to be some world laws that make it so.

In the program I mentioned - Frontline did focus on the American issue of neglect. America, Belgium and the political system. Naturally, we are the most powerful nation in the world and likely would have set the tone for more involvement. But, we are not the only ones to have been reticent. Belgium wanted its troops out of there at the first incidents of killings. They didn't ask the American Govt. to intervene. They bailed. We didn't go in. And nor did anyone else. To blame America is oversimplifing the responsibility.

My main question after watching the program was "Where was Africa in this?" There wasn't one mention of ANY African nation offering aide? Why? Even worse to me is - as all try to make a point about Americas "lack" of interest in what was happening - There was Zero interest from African nations? Let alone everyone else. And yes, everyone else knew what was going on.

I think there needs to be a look at the continent of Africa - it's politics, ethnic strife, it's motivations. I think Africa should have been called to task before America.

It's easy to blame us for everything. That is the danger of our power. And we've taken that since the philipine invasion. That will always be.

I think I understand what happened on our part. I believe we were cautious in light of the Somalian incident which happened only about 2 or 3 months before the Hutus started there killings. So, we were not going to get the nation to back any involvement. And I don't think any one had any idea the killing would become the insane slaughter that it did. I Do think however we should have tried negotiating - tried to aide the UN in peace talks or cease fire talks. But, again - once we're in - we're committed and it's not that easy to get out.

A very complicated situation. I think everyone involved in those very difficult decisions regrets their positions on this matter to this day. Would you want to be faced with decisions like these?

So, yes, I do feel America could have taken some steps - militarily, I'm not sure would have been the way - but I can't say - but I think they erred greatly there. AND by the way so did France, Belgium and the rest of the world firstly, Africa.

Africa has no sense of being a 'Nation'. They are still fighting tribal wars. Until they grow from that - they will continue to have civil strife, wars and go on destroying eachother.
American can't create a nation for them.

Again - watch the Frontline program. A riveting 2 hours.

[LadyGodiva]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by smee
[B]Last night I watched a program that is aired on PBS called "Frontline". It was about Rwanda.

It was chilling and riveting, powerful and overwhelming. It's a very good, well presented view. It's on PBS - and they do re-air often. Try to find it in your local listings.

I like to say;

First of all - with there having been some echos mentioned about the holocaust (it was mentioned in the frontline program) - if all of us as people - just people - think that a genocide like the holocaust and Rwanda and even more atrocious things cannot happen again - we are being incredibly naive.

As difficult as it is to accept - these are people doing these things. Yes, animals - but they are people. So, people have an enormous capacity to good and an enormous capacity to bad. It has always been - it will always be.

I think it's how the world collectively is prepared to deal with it that will make its mark.

Remember, although our world to us today seems natural - we are in a process of changing to a world view. The world is becoming incredibly small - it is only in the last hundred years that this has happened, and it's accelerated in the last 25 yrs at a rate countries, governments, ethnicities and societies are struggling to adjust to.

If we want to stop these types of things happening - the UN has to have more power and there has to be some world laws that make it so.

In the program I mentioned - Frontline did focus on the American issue of neglect. America, Belgium and the political system. Naturally, we are the most powerful nation in the world and likely would have set the tone for more involvement. But, we are not the only ones to have been reticent. Belgium wanted its troops out of there at the first incidents of killings. They didn't ask the American Govt. to intervene. They bailed. We didn't go in. And nor did anyone else. To blame America is oversimplifing the responsibility.

My main question after watching the program was "Where was Africa in this?" There wasn't one mention of ANY African nation offering aide? Why? Even worse to me is - as all try to make a point about Americas "lack" of interest in what was happening - There was Zero interest from African nations? Let alone everyone else. And yes, everyone else knew what was going on.

==============================================
Where was Africa in all this...


Smee, that's something I've been asking myself and others in the Caribbean. It sounds very similar to Caribbean affairs in that most of the islands know where to point the finger, and who to blame, yet they would not readily accept anyone into their island. A good example of that is Haiti. I had read a lot about how the Caribbean was reacting to the trouble over there, and they appeared to think for a brief period that CARICOM needed to intervene and do something, but they waited....and waited... and waited for the US to jump in. Once that happened though, the news I read out of the Caribben focused on the oppressor at his work once more, taking over Haiti! Then the CARICOM group decided that they WILL NOT enter into this mess because America has it's sticky finger in yet another pie!! Rubbish I say. They were NEVER going there, because they prefer for someone to clean up the mess. Then, MAYBE later on they will go in and try to 'save' everyone once the US is gone... I feel so embarrassed at times to share these things here, but it's reality and I can't pretend that everything is honky dory in Caribbean. The mentality of many people on those islands really make me sick.

As for Rwanda and Africa. It's the same mentality. Let someone else come in because they (each country on that continent) have their own crosses to bear. I have many African friends and they have told me before that the attitude is similar to that in the Caribbean. Forget that they're 'brothers and sisters'... that's just for show against the oppressors (USA/EUROPE). Sickening really.

Anyway, I missed the programme. I'd like to see it though.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts;)

Eli

[jjwq8]

I still find it incredible that no-one has taken Paul Kigame to task over ordering the assinations that started it all. Why is he blameless? If he is such a stand-up guy why did he not defeat the incumbent at the ballot box?

[smee]

I can't say I know anything at all of the history of this current situation, but haven't the Hutu's and Tutsie's been killing eachother for generations?

[jjwq8]

Yep and they don't want a policeman, they want a referee of the type employed by the professional wrestlers.

[smee]

hm. Seems that if we focused on that fact a lot more and that it's really their problem - they should be held accountable for it - I guess that would mean the world couldn't blame America for yet again something else.

...we are the whipping post after all.

[jjwq8]

In a manner of speaking yes.

Those taking the whipping are the innocents upon whom such attrocities are visited.

Those taking the blame are those perceived by the whippers as being big enough to ignore the accusatrion once it is made.

[branty1uk]

You'll have to excuse me if I'm saying somthing already said or am totaly wrong but heres my two penneth for what its worth.
I always understood that hatred between the hutus tutsie's was brought about by the Belgiums who in an effort to gain more control over this colony seporatedthe country into 2 groups based on the ammount of catle they owned, dividing the country by causing anomosity between the two groups thus making an uprising agianst them less likely.
Excuse my ignorance if this is wrong

[jjwq8]

That sounds so bizarre it may just be so. Did the Belgians forcibly relocate one side or the other? Also the Belgians didn't create the tribal divide, neither did they create the indigenous wealth (cattle).

However, given that the borders of Kuwait are the result of drawing lines around oil fields, in the complete absence of any naturally occuring barriers, seems that cattle wealth may be just as good a reason, though I don't really see how it could make administrative sense insofar as most colonial powers tended to create divisions based upon their ability to govern and police (govern?) the region so created.

[branty1uk]

I did say my reasons my be flawed, I just had to join in.
Im sure that I did read somewhere that the belgiums did make this tribal divide orignaly to make them easier to govern, but I will check this out and get back to you.
I should also mention this is no different to what the British, French, Portuguese, Dutch and spanish did back in the time of colonial rule and I also dont think the modern day people of these nations should feel any guilt over this situation, as if what we do now has any bearing on what happened 200 years ago or more.

[jjwq8]

Happy birthday by the way Branty. Divide and conquer is not a new idea at all although whomever chooses to employ it at the time invariably claim bragging rights to it. The Romans used it, and before them the Assyrians and so on throughout recorded history. If the idea aint broke, don't fix it. :D

[smee]

yes, Happy Bday Branty.

well, I know even less. well, let's be honest, nothing - so, if you're going to take the time to check it out, I for one would be very interested.

Jeremy - you are exactly right - I think one of the lessons of history by knowing some history is to have a better grip on the evenualities of today. This 'system' has been around since before recorded time.

I think those anthropologists think that the Cro Magnon's kinda wiped out the Neanderthals. But seriously, I think we can learn a great deal from history - of course, so we can repeat it! :) over and over and over it seems.

[LadyGodiva]

Originally posted by LadyGodiva
This might help:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/country_profiles/1070329.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3611733.stm


In any event, I still believe that in spite of which country colonised a particular region, they cannot be held completely responsible for the killings and other things that take place there. Saying that the British, French, Germans, Spaniards etc. colonised a region and corrupted people's mind is totally ridiculous. You still have to take responsibility for your actions! The slaughtering that took place was between BLACKS on BLACKS for crying out loud! You mean to say they cannot distinguish between one brother and the next??? It's not as if some were white French or something:rolleyes:

[jjwq8]

There is a fundamental flaw in the thinking of what I will label, for want of a better phrase, Ethnic Commonalities, particularly prevelant in this region, that commonality in one or even hundreds of aspects of day-to-day life creates commonality of interest and / or purpose. Not so.

Here there are endless references to the "Ummat Al Arabia" (the entire Arab Nation) as well as the "Ummat Al Islamia" (the entire Islamic Nation - not to be confused with Mr. Farakans Nation of Islam).

The assumption being that from the common language and the common religion derives commonality of purpose and interest.

Well if it ever happens everyone on the forum is invited to dip me in s**t and roll me in bread crumbs.

And the biggest conspiracy theorists of the lot are the Arabs. Nothing ever happens unless Israel and the Americans are behind it.

It is promulgated in the media and the diwaniyas and then repeated often enough until it becomes assumed truth.

[LadyGodiva]

Gee JJ, I love reading your posts, I really do... but this time I was drawn to that one sentence ...

I think it was about you being dipped in something rather fascinating (human or animal btw?) and then rolled in breadcrumbs:D

[branty1uk]

White, wholemeal or granary??:eek:

[jjwq8]

Take your pick of any nitrogenous matter you can mix up and the bread of your choice. Doesn't matter because it will never happen :shake: