What would you say..

[LadyGodiva]

If someone told you that they've lived in the US for 30 years, but they detest everything about it, how would you feel? What would you say if they told you that they are here in 'body' only, but their heart and soul still resides in their homeland? What if all you hear about is how racist Americans are, and how this country isn't any better than South Africa? Would you be angry? irritated?

I came across this type of stupidity yesterday, and found myself engrossed in an argument. My feeling was that if you don't like where you're living, you ought to go back to wherever you're from. The person I told this to was highly offended.

I've lived in the US for 20 years, and in two other places before that. One I didn't like very much and left after 2 years, the other I loved a lot and plan to one day retire there. The US like everywhere else is not perfect, but there are a lot of damn good things here, or I wouldn't have stayed.

Imagine that I could not tell this person that I am a naturalised citizen for fear that I would have been called a traitor, and ridiculed for my choice. I think waiting 20 bloody years was a darn long time as it is, but at least I feel very happy about my decision. Unfortunately, this arrogant idiot is from my homeland. We all have some of these folks... if only I could get a good enough recipe to cover him up for good... I was thinking cement. But seriously guys, do you find it offensive when people ill speak your country? Or don't you care anymore?

Maybe I'm a damn US convert now, but I get offended when people do this.

Good night my dears. I ought to get some beauty sleep now. Just wanted to vent a little.

Eli

[Sponsored Links]

[Mike2]

My feeling was that if you don't like where you're living, you ought to go back to wherever you're from.

Exactly. :nod:

Beyond that LG, it just doesn't make sense living here for 30 years while at the same time detesting everything about it. Did you get any insight as to how this person reconciled this disparity?

[jjwq8]

One of the better put downs in the face of such bigotry came from my Uncle Richard. At the time he was employed by International Harvester in their London office.

He went to Heathrow to meet a Senior VP, or some such and since I was visiting for the weekend, offered to drive.

This gentleman arrived and the moment he saw us began deriding Britain in general and London in particular.

Before reaching the parking garage, he declared:

"This place is the ***hole of the world!"

Unphased, Richard turned to him and calmly replied:

"Then you are of course simply something passing through it".

The bags were left at the curb, along with the bigot and a general directive where to find a cab.

[John K]

:D :D :D

[tileguytodd]

Eli,
Somepeople are just lonely unhappy souls who go through life whining and moaning about everything from thier Government to thier soup.It becomes habit for them and begins on waking and never stops until they fall asleep.If these people werent here complaining they would be somewhere else complaining in a whisper.here they can do it out loud :)

[Steven Hauser]

Eli,

How sad. :( :(


My .02

[LadyGodiva]

Hi all. Thanks for your input. Here is some more info that might give you an idea of what I'm dealing with.

I'm originally from the Caribbean, and recently joined a forum where I come across folks like the person I mentioned. Some live in Europe and others live in N. America.

There was a thread started about whether or not we would all continue living abroad, or whether we would return 'home'. I chose to say that I love my homeland, but I would only return for a vacation, not to live there. First of all, they could never pay me for the job I do here. Secondly, my children were born in the US and they are citizens of this country. This is 'their' homeland. They would never fit into life back there because of the 'colour' of their skin. That's the honest truth. I also mentioned that I was the wrong 'colour' from Trinidad, and though I would love to go back sometimes, I know that I wouldn't be accepted.

Many talk about discrimination in this country, and yes it did and does exist, but I don't think it's as bad as some make it out to be. Discrimination EXISTS in the Caribbean, and if you're not black, you're not one of them. Now I'm not white in my eyes, but America is a strange place at times, and some hospitals have argued and decided to click the 'white' boxes when I tell them "other". It doesn't bother me either way. I'm a mixture of Portuguese, lebanese, Scottish, Indian and French. Now try picturing that mixture hahaha!

So in my native land, they considered me a 'honky' and I was bullied constantly because of this. Not all blacks behaved that way naturally, but enough of them to make me not feel 'at home' there. I moved to the USA that was supposed to be so racist, and lo and behold I was embraced and told that I'm beautiful. Never heard the word in my homeland. I was told that I had a beautiful accent, and forever the question "where are you from"???? :D

How could I take my children back there? They would never be accepted. I learned to see this country through their eyes. I love my country, and I am still proud to say that I'm a Trinidadian. I'm still proud to talk about our achievements (especially in the oil business). Because of this, I felt it necessary to raise my children to be Americans and to love their land as I do mine. However, they also know about my culture and customs, and they embrace mine with great respect and love (just as I do theirs). That's the only way I think that us 'foreigners' could live here and raise our children the healthy way.

But to continue this novel about the guy I mentioned. Well, he married a black Trini woman, and he is black also. He claims that he was never accepted as an American and that this place will never be home. He has a big house, 3 cars, and travels whenever he feels like it. Apparently, America is so racist that they stopped him from even getting a bigger house and more cars! Do you see the attitude I'm dealing with here? I believe that our attitude as foreigners play a major part. If we come to this country expecting every American to adapt to us, and not the other way around, we're heading into trouble. I've always felt that education was the key to helping people understand who I was and where I was from.

I've spoken in colleges and high schools, in preschools and middle schools about the Caribbean. I've taken in foods, pictures, music, toys etc. and the only responses I got were positive ones. I have friends here who are from the middle east and they complain as well, and I've told them that it is their duty to go out and educate the 'natives' (yeah, I call you guys natives)hehe. When I moved to Mexico to study, the first thing they told the students over there was "you have to adapt to Mexican life, not the Mexicans to you". I thought that made sense.

I really feel sad though whenever I come across someone who is hateful toward me because I don't have the same type of hair of colour skin... especially when it's from my own country.

Sorry for the novel guys.

Eli

[jjwq8]

Well Eli :D Goat stew and tabbouleh what a menu :D

I complain bitterly about Q8 but believe that after 26 years here I have earned that right. My complaints are however not race based, they are complaints about facile stupidity and double standards. The most well worn phrase is that this is a country that knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Could I ever return to the UK? Extremely doubtful. I would have little idea how to survive there anymore. Am I proud of being English? Damn straight. Do I rub others noses in it? Only all the time :D

I will probably incur the wrath of countless members of the forum but it has been my genuine experience that those with a skin hue other than generic "white" tend to be more basically racist than we are, and here I am taking myself as the norm. I encounter it constantly.

As an outsider looking in, it strikes me that much of the "race" problem in the USA is a self fulfilling prophecy arising out of the politically correct ethos of defining and compartmentalizing indeed being encouraged to parade your family/ethnic roots. Why can't you simply be Americans one and all and be proud of it?

[John Bridge]

Eli,

It's my experience that your fellow from Trinidad is the exception to the rule. I know a great many black Jamaicans, and I daresay not a one of them feels discriminated against in this country. All are doing well. All middle-class -- nice homes, families, etc.

Conversely, I'm aware there is quite of bit of the discrimination you speak of going on in Jamaica. The varying degrees of black and white seem to be rigidly categorized there. ;)

There is very little color discrimination left in this country. There is still a lot of "class" discrimination that is mistakenly construed as color discrimination, but it's not the same. One has the option of improving his social status in just about every case.

[Mike2]

Don't have to be sorry for that novel LG. Was a pleasure to read. Give us another one sometime. This mudbox can alway use some class just to maintain the some assemblance of balance.

Back to the guy...just one guy in the sea....got his own warped opinions with his big fancy house and cars. Let it go and move on. :)

[LadyGodiva]

Mike, JJ, John glad to read some comments.

I know what' you're saying about moving on Mike. I probably need to move out of that forum I'm on. I went there to sort of touch base with my culture (every now and again I get this need), but it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth at times.

It's not just this one guy actually. We have about half the forum who seem normal (I'm in that group...hehehe) - you believe I'm NORMAL, don't ya???:D The rest just spout off racial stuff about England, Canada, and the States. They also see only bad things about N. America and use Bush and anything that goes wrong to attack MOI. Like I represent you guys???? Well, sort of :D

Wanna see my response to a stupid post? I had to laugh at myself afterwards.

"You know what I HATE about North America/Europe and whatever other countries 'WE' people end up in? It is that these countries FORCEFULLY pulled us out of the islands, and FORCEFULLY placed us in their countries... As if that wasn't bad enough six, they turn around and FORCE us to stay in their land...

It is a terrible thing when one is FORCED to live in another land, when the truth of the matter is that they want to go back to their homeland.

Someone needs to start fighting against these awful countries for doing this to us. Who going to start the war against these places? Maybe you should six...

My heart is bleeding just reading your words. I wish I could help you get back to where you belong. Poor you."


The guy in question avoided that post like the plague!!hehe.


We also have a white Texan and they attack this girl as if she brought the slaves over herself. She's been called white trash etc., but she still comes on the forum to try and reason with some of them. Not all members are so rude to her, but enough of them to cause her some pain. She's married to a Trini (he just happens to be white - big mistake)!! Poor girl, I keep trying to explain the attitude of my people to her, but I myself can't understand it sometimes.

Gee, did I ever tell you guys that I like you lots??? It's so much easier to talk to mud guys:D

JJ, I never had goat, would you believe that? So do you still drink tea with milk???

[jjwq8]

Eli

I can't address the issue from a US standpoint so I will not dare to try. My view obviously differs from all who are citizens. I'm just privileged to be allowed to participate in the melee.

Tea with milk?

Is there any other way?

Tetley with skimmed and absolutely no sugar :D

Oh and just the odd 4-5 litres a day to make up for the lack of beer :yeah:

[LadyGodiva]

JJ, you're my kind of person!!! I love tea with milk/skimmed as well (no sugar)!!!! And I do hate it when they bring iced tea for me in restaurants:mad:

I'm one of those nuts who never tried to shake off colonisation, and actually love the British programmes on public tele. Wait until John and others see this! They'll begin to accuse me of being a traitor:D

Have you ever used netflix? I get loads of good British stuff through them. Some oldies but goodies as well. Tea glorious tea, I'm going to have some right now! I drink so much of it all day that my friends here call me 'limey' from time to time.

For me it's so easy to get along with the Yanks (that's what they call you guys on the other board), and the Brits. Don't get me wrong, I do have some very close buddies on the Trini forum as well, but they have to hide behind private IMs to talk about cricket (especially when they back England), or to say they drink tea. It's maddening the hangups some folks have.

Ah yes, tea is calling. Care to have a cuppa with me?;)

[LadyGodiva]

Oh JJ don't know if you're into cricket still, but England beat the West Indies while playing in Trinidad. They're in Barbados now.


John, racism in Jamaica isn't any different. They have given the Indians and Chinese hell over there. I can understand the sentiments to some extent, but at some time or the other we need to live and let live... do unto to others should come to mind, know what I mean?

In the early 60s after we gained independence, our government literally threw out all foreign investors. They wanted our own everything. I can understand that. But guess what happened? The country went down the toilet bowl... literally. It's like throwing a child out on the street and telling them to fend for themselves. Independence takes some time to adjust to. We need to place some of our people in charge yes, but under some expert supervision before we threw them out. You can't just say "yankee go home, British go back to where you came from" and expect that things will just run themselves. I'm all for independence, but I think it has to be a gradual process.

Race issues came about once the Brits were out though. Mind you, I think Britain wasn't fighting to hold on to us. There wasn't a war over this issue. So, once the colonisers were out, they picked on the other races who appeared to be white... Portuguese, Syrians, Lebanese, Chinese etc. Things got really bad during the 1970 black power uprising. My aunt and uncle we dragged out of their home and beaten, spat upon and told to leave. They did just that. Moved to N.J. Now my aunt and uncle were not rich, they used to take in borders and my uncle worked on a ship. But, they were "Portuguese" (connected with the slaves in people's minds). My aunt looked like a Trinidadian version of Liz Taylor (when she was younger). It was a sad thing for her because she loved Trinidad, and most of her friends were black. They didn't do this to her. It was the mobs.

I'm really not bitter about these things. I'm more saddened by it.

JJ, loved England when I visited for 5 months some years ago. Tea does taste better over there... it's the polluted thames I think that does the trick:D

[jjwq8]

Sorry to disappoint but one thing to thank Thatcher for... a frighteningly clean Thames. You can now catch Trout from the banks at the Palace of Westminster. :D

[John Bridge]

Oh, so Maggie did something right afterall, what? ;)

Tres interesting. Didn't know the racial thing was that rampant. Knew it was a problem, but not to that extent. I'm painfully aware that we did at one time force people from other countries to live here. It's very old history in my book, but it's there. :)

My wife Patti is keen on the English programming on the TV. I've never been able to figure the Brits out. No humor/humour as far as I can tell. ;)

[LadyGodiva]

Originally posted by jjwq8
Sorry to disappoint but one thing to thank Thatcher for... a frighteningly clean Thames. You can now catch Trout from the banks at the Palace of Westminster. :D


I know that JJ. Just trying to bring back fond memories of the polluted Thames. Whenever I'm too tough around my father, he calls me Maggie:D

[LadyGodiva]

Originally posted by John Bridge
Oh, so Maggie did something right afterall, what? ;)

Tres interesting. Didn't know the racial thing was that rampant. Knew it was a problem, but not to that extent. I'm painfully aware that we did at one time force people from other countries to live here. It's very old history in my book, but it's there. :)

My wife Patti is keen on the English programming on the TV. I've never been able to figure the Brits out. No humor/humour as far as I can tell. ;)


NO HUMOUR???? You're looking to get lynched:mad: :D

Actually, when I first moved here, I remember hearing people talking about Johnny Carson, so I started watching his programme. Well, I have to tell you that after about 2 shows I gave up saying that 'Americans have NO HUMOUR'. It took a couple years more before I could finally understand the humour, and I too became a late fan. Funny thing with humour, huh? I feel extra special since I can understand yours John and also the good ole Brits. Aren't I a lucky lady?

[LadyGodiva]

John,

One of the things that's interesting to me, is to hear people talking about the Caribbean as paradise. And yes, in a way it is paradise... lovely weather most of the time, beaches, mountains (some islands), lots of fresh fruits and vegetables year round, wonderful sunsets etc.

But, many times visitors are staying on the islands in those all inclusive set ups so they don't get to witness 'real' life. Also, the locals who might drive you around are not going to be showing you a bad face because they want your money. They're not fools. However, things would be different if you were to live there.

On the 5 visits that I made back there in the last 20 years, each time some idiot had to call us 'white flesh'. Mind you, these are sometimes not the best educated people, but still it hurts especially since both my husband and I are from the same island. My children didn't understand why they were being called 'white flesh' and mutterings of 'I'm smelling white flesh, let's get out of here' comments. The only response from us was silence, because some people tend to get a little bit violent if you answer them. Again, not all the people behave this way, but I can't help comparing my experiences all over England and the USA where no one has ever been that nasty to me (knock on wood).

We were also in St. Lucia and had similar problems. We rented a place from a local person, and he was very nice to us. This time it was different though. Not only did we appear 'foreign' to them, but when we mentioned being from Trinidad, that brought on different problems. Regional ones. Trinidad is the richest island in the Caribbean, and as a result, the smaller islands as we call them, generally don't like us very much. They see us as being arrogant, and full of ourselves. Much the same as the outside world views Americans.

Human nature is such fun at times. :)

[tileguytodd]

Take 2 aspirin,go directly to that forum and yell at the top of your lungs
"WHERES THE LOVE MAN" :D :D

[Ron]

Very intersting topic you've started.

I have had some experiences that relate to what you've said,L.G.

I'm from Holland(no milk in my tea :D) and have lived happily,near Toronto,for 20 years.In this country,opportunities are limitless with the right mixture of vision and a positive demeanor as I'm sure they are too in the U.S. I'm not a Canadian on paper yet but consider myself so anyway.Proud and fortunate to be living here.Wouldn't be doing what I do here so freely,in the Netherlands.

Toronto houses every nationality in abundance...like a smaller version of London.They call it a melting pot.I disagree with that term.Sure,ideally I like to see it as a garden...If a flower bed has only one type of flower it is very plain,yet if it is full with so many different plants and colours,well then it becomes a magnificent garden to admire.Sadly,Toronto is not this idealistic picture.

I've heard so many immigrants(Russian,Polish,Romanian,Bulgarian,Greek,Italian,Dutch,Portuguese,Egyptian,Tunisian,Ethiop ian,Somalian,Iritrean,Ghanan,Iranian,Palestinian,Lebanese,Sri Lankan,Indian,Trinidadian,Jamaican,Antiguan,Grenadian,Guyanese,Venezualan,Central American,Chinese,Thai,Cambodian,Philippino,...the list goes on,these are just the ones I easily remember that bitched about the place :rolleyes: )complain about the way of life here,and how many things were way better "back home". I hate to hear that crap. Go back then.
If things "back home" were so bad tthat you had to move here then the least you could do to show your appreciation is to try to embrace the new way of life and adapt. Buy some blue jeans and a ball-cap,damnit. :D ...try to be happy here.Make some adventurous changes.

I've also met many people of these same nationalities that are very happy here and do well by their adopted home.So,I'm not biased against any particular immigrant really.


The Toronto International Airport is a place where I always notice people who are clearly immigrants that are not happy to be here.Sour looks on their faces everywhere in that crowded zoo.It's so easy to distinguish who is travelling and who lives here.I say it's the perfect place for these miserable newcomers...buy a ticket and get the hell back to where you came from if you're so unhappy.


I've also had many positive relations with people who come from where you're from.I know many people from the Caribbean here.A good friend of mine is a Trini.Him and his family,the most delightful and warmest folk.They prosper here and are happy.My brother's wife is a black Jamaican...OK,her family does a lot of bitching...not a good example. :) Eleven years ago,I did work for a Jamaican man who owns a big transport company.Good friend of my father.My brother and I were,with one exception,the only whities who worked there and we fit right in,without prejudices either way.Still go to the Christmas parties.(I love the stew chicken where the meat just slides off the bones...and the solfish 'n akee :D )


I don't understand completely why people have such a disdain for the States and things American.(I've had nothing but good times there,never had a problem.In fact,in the South,people are just the friendliest I've ever met.I like the Southern States the most,have travelled thru all of them.)Western Europe's popular culture is mostly derivative of America's,yet it is so eager to state negative views of the U.S.( Hello! The U.S. is not represented by the views of one or two politicians and their foreign affairs,it's not about politics all the time.It's about the people.)
Ocassionally,I get into arguments here with fellow Canadians who don't like the States.Usually,they've never travelled.Also,these are often the same people who hate the fact that I have a Toyota and not a Ford or G.M.C. ...yet they don't like anything U.S. ...Stupids :D And they are the first to jump on unemployment insurance claiming that it is their right ...that they pay into it and that they deserve it.Morons.

[Ron]

John,"No Humour" in British programming? Ever seen Benny Hill?

:D :D :D

All right,I don't completely get some of the Monty Python stuff either but Benny Hill is hilarious.So is Fawlty Towers,Mr.Bean,On The Buses,and that guy Dave ... something,I forget his last name,but he'd sit on a chair with a whiskey during his monologue and make fun of Catholics and politics,culture,etc.What's his name again?

[LadyGodiva]

Ron,

Don't you dare disappear on me, ok? I loved your post because you are seeing what I'm seeing as well, and I want to respond properly but alas it's a tad bit late for the lady, and I've got to get my beauty sleep. Yes, I'm afraid so John and company, even I need my beauty sleep :).

Take care guys.

Eli

[jjwq8]

Ron,

Dave Allen.

Good night, and may your God go with you :D

[Maurizio Bertoli]

Oookaaay ... even if we are at the end of this thread I think I have something to say first-hand myself.
I came to this country in 1981 by my free choice. I was not a political refugee, nor was I coming from a poor country where one can't find a decent occupation.
After 5 years of residency I could have applied for citizenship, but decided against it because at the time it would have meant to lose my original citizenship - which bothered me. Some 5 or 6 years later they voted a law in Italy, by which if an emigrant Italian would become citizen of another country, he or she could keep the Italian citizenship. At the time I thought: "Okay, now I can apply for the American citizenship..."
But never did for a long time. Why? Just one of those things: "Oh, yeah ... I'll do it ..."
After all, even as an Alien Resident I had all the same rights (besides voting and serving in jury duty), and nobody would ever send me where I came from!
But then something happened.
9/11.
Not even a week later I sent in our applications. I felt that if it happened to America, it happened to me, too!
My wife, my younger son and I were sworn in last November. (Our dog was born here!!:D ) (my older son already became a citizen when he joined the army and went through the first Golf War)
Do I like this country? Very much so!
Do I like Italy better? For certain things, yes, but the numbers at the bottom of the balance sheet are in favor of the USA.
No country is perfect: they're all made by people!!
Racism?
When I was back in Italy I've heard all too many times about the American racism, and many of my friends were cirticizing America for it. The fact in the matter is that it's quite easy preaching against something when you don't have a direct experience.
What I mean by that is that back then Italy was made by 100% Italians. The racist issue did not exist simply because it couldn't!
In the past 15 years I noticed profound changes happening in my native country: lots of emigrants coming from North Africa, Albania and Yugoslavia. I've never seen a country more racist than Italy now! :( :confused:
Racism in America? It's chopped liver and mostly in the imagination of the self-made "victims!"
One of my students to my latest class was a black guy from California. He grew up in a black getto in a big city.
Now he's a successful businessman, with a 6000 square feet home near Palm Spring, CA, a wonderful family with three children, and he joined my class because he wanted to branch out into stone restoration.
Over dinner one night he told me: "When I grew old enough to realize that all the perequisites to make something out of myself were readily available, I got out of the getto. And you know, what? I didn't have to knock down any wall, or pray any heavy door open! My two brothers are still there bitchin' 'n' moanin' about being victimized by the white people. I really feel sorry for them, and don't care much either. I'd rather drive my Mercedes Benz!"
That says it all about racism, I reckon!
Yes, sure, there are biggots out there. But you can find biggots and indiots all over the world. They're not certainly an "exclusive" of this country!! :D
Deep in my heart I'm Italian, and very proud of it. But I embraced this land as my country by my free choice and I love it.
I worked very hard (and still do), I did what it took to integrate with the "natives" (I didn't speak a word of English when I moved!) and nobody ever tried to stop me. The infrastructures and programs that are available in this country to small business people like myself are unheard of anywhere else in the entire world!
It's a challenging country, I can tell you that! But I really love it because of that. I feel very stongly that I could have never accomplished what I was able to accomplish here if I was still back there.
And I'm not talking about financial success. I was pretty darn successful over there, too, and I was not poor when I moved across the pond! (Not rich, either!;))... It's hard to explain with words ... Let's put it this way: if I were still in Italy by now I would be looking forward to retiring and ... do nothing all day long. In here, I still feel 21 and look forward to my future every single day!
Retirement? It's for wimps who have nothing to say and that never made a difference!
America is not for retirees: America is for people who have something to say and they keep saying it 'til they die. Why?
Because they like it, because it makes them feel alive!
It is indeed the land of opportunity. But not because of some benevolent magic spell. You still have to work very hard to get it! It is so because a true American - no matter where he or she comes from - does not know that "it can't be done!"
Ciao and good luck, everybody!
Maurizio

[jjwq8]

Maurizio,
You want to know about racism?

Remember the introduction of the standardised European Passport?

Uproar in the UK.

"WHAT???? Give us the same passport as ITALIANS??????? NEVER!!!! :D

[John Bridge]

I guess it's freedom, don't you think? That and living in a large country. The only area in which we've fallen down seems to be in the humility department.

It's really hard to be humble. :)

[Maurizio Bertoli]

Dear Jhon:
True humility is a rare tract of a few great people.
Most of the times what we refer to as humility turns out to be the expression of low self-estime. I can't see anything positive in that, do you?! ;) :shades:
America is either loved or hated by other countries. But the fact is that everybody talks about America every single day and on every possible occasion, while nobody talks about most other countries, unless there's some political riot or something bad going on!
What's most relevant is that one time or another most countries needed America, and always got the help they were seeking. Correct me if I'm wrong, but to the best of my knowledge it never happened the other way around!
Is it because we are big?
No, it's because we are strong and great. And, like our (almost MD) Linda profile signature states:

"Great spirits always find opposition from mediocre minds!"

In my not so humble opinion, that applies to countries as well! ;)
Of course, America made a lot of mistakes, too. It happens to those who take action, because the only sure way to avoid mistakes is to sit on your butt and do nothing!
Ciao,
Maurizio

[Mike2]

Nice write up Maurizio - very well done (both of them) :nod:

[LadyGodiva]

Maurizio!!!! My Italian Prince is still around??? Great to read your post my dear. I did miss our little 'discussions' on granite;) .
Now we're going to have them thinking.

I also came to the States with some money, and took a long time to become a citizen. However, something about 9/11 really shook me up too, and the fact that my country recognises dual citizenship as well. So really and truly Maur, we have the best of both worlds, don't you think?


I still feel like a Trini or Island Girl as I call myself, but I've become Americanised in some ways, and it's not such a bad thing. I've tried to explain to those Trinidadians who view me as a traitor that America is like my adopted mother, whilst Trinidad is my birth mother. It's possible to love them both.

Hey, I bet this is making a lot of those 'yanks' out there think about their country, huh? And folks, no matter how much you tell outsiders that you're not all 'yanks', they'll still call you that!!!

I hope this thread doesn't die soon. It's a nice change from the regular stuff, and it's pretty emotional I know, but we can all learn so much from each other.

Mauriziooooooooo!!! Do you have any great Italian recipes to share??? I love cooking.

Hugs everyone.

Eli

[Maurizio Bertoli]

Dear Mike:
Thanks! :)

Dearest Eli:
My Italian Prince is still around??? Great to read your post my dear. I did miss our little 'discussions' on granite .
Did you really have to break it into the open?! ... You know, sometimes my wife reads this forum, too!! ;) :D :D

Well, it looks like the only thing we don't have in common is the fact that you were kinda discriminated against in your own country, because of all the mixed races you're made of! It's not my case, here! :)
(BTW, you must be drop-dead gorgeous! You ain't the one in the picture, are ya?!)
I did enjoy reading your original post of this rather interesting thread and your own follow-ups. Not only are you beautiful, but quite educated, too.
Well, I did get Americanized in many ways, too, but I never gave up my traditions and heritage (sorry, you Yanks, I still like better my own red wine over beer!! :D :D) What can I tell you, we have lots of "natives" as friends and they appreciate very much our traditions - especially when they include an invitation over to dinner! No take-outs, here! Everything is made from scratch all the time!
What's really interesting is the fact that in here you find specialty foods coming from all over the world. That really opened up new horizons to our culinary creativity!! ;) :D
Which brings us to your other question.
Mauriziooooooooo!!! Do you have any great Italian recipes to share??? I love cooking.
You betcha! And everybody knows that I love cooking, too! :drool2: (Though I'm not as good a cook as my wife, I have certain specialties where I really excell! ;))
But we don't want to ... divulge this kind of priceless information to a whole bunch of "yanks" who only know hamburgers, hot dogs, french fries and KFC, do we now?!! :D :D
You know what? I think I will put some of my very special recipes in the "Educational Literature" section of my website, in "pay-per-download" format!! Who knows, maybe I'm gonna sell more of those than any article on the proper maintenance of residential stone installations!! :D
Of course, for you they're gonna be free just for the asking! ;) :D :D
Ciao,
Maurizio

[John Bridge]

So it's come to this, amici. Discrimination against Yanks 'cause they eat Big Macs. I could almost feel it coming.

:D

[Maurizio Bertoli]

Yep! You could even call it racism if you want, but if you want one of my recipes you're gonna have to pay! As sure as hell you ain't as pretty like our Lady Godiva!! :D :D
Ciao,
Maurizio

[RandyL]

American humility........now there's a topic...........

[Maurizio Bertoli]

Dear Randy:
Well, it's true, we're not really humble, are we?!...
But then again, why should we be?
All the other countries made America the police of the world. All the other countries look up to America and call Her when they need something serious.
America didn't ask to be put up there upon a pedestal. She went about Her business, buyng and selling stuff, making deals, and coming up with one amazing invention after another that deeply changed people lifestyles all over the planet.
Every other country would be proud of all those achievements, and would be flaunting them right and left at any given opportunity.
I would say, that all things considered, America is humble.
Sure, when it gets involved in idiotic wars like the latest one, to liberate a nation that didn't want to be liberated, and against the UN deliberations, looking for WOMD that everybody but us knew they didn't exist, then yes, America does look arrogant. And goofy, too.
But just because we have a king-wannabe cowboy warlord as a President right now, America can't be judged just by that. Her hystory presents a picture that's much bigger than the past 3 1/2 years. We did have a few bad presidents in the past, but sooner or later they went away.
So, now because of our current president actions, the 71% of the so called "civilized world" public opinion is against us. Let's make no mistake here: that's pretty bad, and let me tell you, we really don't need that. But we deserve it and we'll have to deal with it.
They still need us, though!... Even if this fact does not give us the right not to care. As the cops of the world, we must be fair.
Ciao,
Maurizio

[BTM]

Lots of long winded posts. I'll be blunt.
Everyone defends their own country, just human nature. I am no different

If this was Sept 12 2001, I'd be willing to bet everyone here would be pumping up the US. Attitudes change. Seems like the rest of this planet has forgotten how the USA has helped just about every country out of disasters or economic hardships. Hey, if they ALL paid us back what we're owed, we could have a 3 day work week!

Television news controls the mood of this nation. What a disgrace! No matter who is President, he will never carry out campaign promises. There is that stumbling block called Congress.

America: Love it or Leave it.

Lady Godiva, don't be afraid to stand up for what you believe. I would have let the complainer have both barrels. After all, that is what this country was founded on - Freedom of Speach.

Almost forgot, I was going to be short & sweet:dance:

Born in the USA............I was..................bob

[John Bridge]

Go ahead and let it all out, Bob. :)

You're right, Randy. It's a hell of a topic, all right. :D

[flatfloor]

Jeremy, what sort of treatment do you receive in your "adopted" country or do you live in a compartmentalized segment of Kuwait society?

Lady G great topic and would you mind telling us what part of the US you're in? .:)

[Hobbit]

Very interesting commentary here.....:)

Eli, I am very happy to have you here in our fourm. You have obviously learned to adapt and have managed to keep a very good attitude at the same time. Your comments seem to indicate a passion for the intangible in American society. JB said it correctly...it is freedom. Not just freedom in word, but in deed as well. In the US everyone has the capacity to attain greatness. You can be as large and noble as you want to be, or as small and discreet and private as you like. Greatness is a state of mind.;)

Eli...Ron...Maurizio........good comments, all of you. Well spoken.


I think I have more to say about this discrimination stuff and perceptions (....???).......maybe another time.


:):)

[RandyL]

proud to be CANADIAN!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :p

[Hobbit]

Randy.....

As well you should be.



:):)

[RandyL]

:D

[LadyGodiva]

" In the US everyone has the capacity to attain greatness. You can be as large and noble as you want to be, or as small and discreet and private as you like. Greatness is a state of mind.;)

Eli...Ron...Maurizio........good comments, all of you. Well spoken.


I think I have more to say about this discrimination stuff and perceptions (....???).......maybe another time.


:):) [/B][/QUOTE]

Hobbit, that's exactly what I'm going to tell some of those idiots on the 'other' forum tomorrow. They just don't seem to get it. I can't understand anyone living in this time warp thing, where you cannot see beauty in another place. I do understand being patriotic, and I'm very patriotic. But when you become fanatical with it, then it's a PROBLEM. I wouldn't want to be around Americans who shoved their greatness down my throat either. Thankfully, most are quite 'civilised'!!! hehehe. Seriously though, I find the 'freedom' to be like you said. I'm female, married, two children and I chose to go back to school and study what I WANTED to study, and not what my father told me to way back when. After that, I decided to go to grad school because I love learning. Besides, there isn't anything in this country that I would like to do, where there is a sign saying 'no foreigners welcome', or 'no ladies allowed'... is there???? Perhaps in Arkansas:D

I feel free, and I don't even know how to explain this concept to others. From the time I begin to talk about freedom I'm criticised for buying into the 'American hype'. Whatever that means. I don't think this is a perfect country, or better than anywhere else. I just think that where I am in my life, it is the best choice for me. It's perfect for my needs. Does that make sense? I have this sense also that I never have to be old (not going to try lypo or botox), but I'm talking about the mind. I never have to retire and give up on living like so many people do in other countries.

Let me tell you a story (and I have to apologise to the person who mentioned long-winded posts), but we got lots to say here dude, so be patient with us 'foreigners':) . My mother-in-law came for a visit about 5 years ago and she was shocked to see the older ladies having manicures, their hair done, and shopping all the time. She also couldn't understand why people in wheel chairs and oxygen tanks would go to Disneyland and Six Flags! She thought they'd be better off at home taking things easy. But I on the other hand look at these folks and think "wow, awesome, way to go." I look at them and realise that I don't have to stop... not until they put me in that box. That's what freedom means to me. To be what/who I want to be, and not what my culture tells me I ought to be.

[LadyGodiva]

Originally posted by flatfloor
Jeremy, what sort of treatment do you receive in your "adopted" country or do you live in a compartmentalized segment of Kuwait society?

Lady G great topic and would you mind telling us what part of the US you're in? .:)


I'm in Oklahoma... not sure if I'll get a 'wow' or a 'poor you' like the Texans always tell me. It's been interesting living here, because 20 years ago there were not many people looking like me. People used to stop and ask me where I was from, and comment on my accent. Mind you, they still do, but as we get more and more 'Latinos', I'm beginning to blend in. The Latinos think I'm one of them, and many speak to me in Spanish. Fortunately for them, I did go to Mexico to study Spanish for one year. I figured since most Americans thought I was Latina, and even those folks thought I was one of them, I might as well speak the darn language:D

I've never experienced discrimination though. You'd think that looking so 'foreign' in a predominantly white state that they would have come after me, but the 'natives' are rather friendly on this side. My belief is that it has a lot to to do with attitude. I've met people who weren't terribly friendly, or who seemed uncomfortable with my 'foreigness' but I have always felt that it was I who had to adapt to America, and not she to me... so I always make people comfortable around me, and I always make jokes about myself being 'foreign' 'crazy' etc., because it makes them laugh, and once you get some humour going, the most difficult 'hick' minded folk tend to loosen up.

I should get to bed! Good night folks, and thanks again for allowing me the opportunity to share some of me with you.

Eli

[John Bridge]

Geez, an articulate Okie. What will they think of next?

:D

Randy,

Is that Canadian humility? ;)

[tileguytodd]

Randy, didnt Canada ontario just ask for political asylum and apply to be the 51st state :D :D :D

[bbcamp]

An imported articulate Okie. Domestic Okies, that's another story...:D

[sdaniels7114]

Originally posted by Ron

...The Toronto International Airport is a place where I always notice people who are clearly immigrants that are not happy to be here.Sour looks on their faces everywhere in that crowded zoo.It's so easy to distinguish who is travelling and who lives here.I say it's the perfect place for these miserable newcomers...buy a ticket and get the hell back to where you came from if you're so unhappy...

[/B]


Are you so sure that it's Toronto that's got those peeps upset? Lemme see now... traffic gridlock, long lines, weather delays, overbooking, outrageous prices, mechanical delays, heightend security restrictions, etc. Maybe those sour looks are just normal reactions to the current "airport experience.":confused:

[jjwq8]

Is an articulate okie an artichokie?

Now as to living apart from vox publicus in this shining example of democratic reform?

You betcha. Give my fellow Brits as wide a berth a possible. :D

Early on in our marriage the Devine M and I were treated like a circus act to be rolled out for purposes of discussion when the party flagged. As you can imagine, the side of my character that suffers such prigs gladly didn't take long to ensure that invitations soon dried up.

The corollary being that the Devine M's friends (Arabs) opened their homes and their hearts to me. So now you maybe get some idea of just why I have such marrow deep affection for these folks that are so often and readily dismissed as somehow less than human.

Self evidently I will never be invited into the home of the bigots and fundamentalists, but that frankly is their loss.

I now have little idea how the majority of Caucasian expats spend their days and nights and frankly I could care less, My time is far too precious to be dissipated in darts leagues and home brewing and forgive the generalization but the "Pound Note Wives" are simply too depressing for words (generic term for expat spouses who equate personal achievement to the size of the family pay cheque).

[LadyGodiva]

John, we have all types in Oklahoma... even lots of guys with the name "John"! Mind you... that name also refers to something else...well, I'd better run off now:D

[LadyGodiva]

Originally posted by bbcamp
An imported articulate Okie. Domestic Okies, that's another story...:D

Domestic anything sometimes could be a problem:p

[John Bridge]

I think taking a shot at Texans might have been fair, but taking a shot at Johns isn't cricket, eh? :D

Jeremy of Arabia. Has an uncanny ring to it, no? ;)

Artichokie. Nice one. :)

[LadyGodiva]

Actually, I like Texans. I was in Austin two weeks ago (loved it), and saw a sign that said "I'm Texan, what country are you from?"

[RandyL]

Our country is called Canada......not Canada ontario...........thank you and goodnight.......:D

[John Bridge]

We know all you Canucks really want to be Americans. C'mon. Admit it. :D

Eli,

When I arrived here 22 years ago, a popular bumper sticker said, "Keep Texas Beautiful. Put a Yankee on a Bus."

;)

[RandyL]

BBBAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA...........I got an idea........lets walk across the world...I'll have a Canadian patch on my back........you have an American patch........lets see who gets shot first......:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Edna]

Many years ago on a farm near Rextop, a chicken had laid an egg. But what an egg. Everyone agreed it was the biggest egg they had ever seen. First the chicken sat on the egg until she got tired. Then the turkey sat on the egg, then the duck, and then the goose.

When one day they heard a strange loud frightening noise, the egg was hatching. Everyone gathered around to see what would happen. When finally, out popped a Chirkendoose. It had a body like a turkey and a bill like a duck, instead of quack quacking it said cluck, cluck. Had a head like a chicken and legs like a goose, said it felt pretty good except its legs were loose. It was not very fonderia and had only one ear, right on the back of its head.

Everyone agreed it was the strangest thing they have ever seen. And out the hen house it ran as everyone clucked and quacked, hissed and gobbled, chasing poor Chirkendoose away.

Several days thereafter there was another strange loud frightening noise. A fox entered the hen house chasing everyone about. They were hissing and quacking, clucking and gobbling as the fox closed in for his supper. When all of a sudden, in came the Chirkendoose and with a mighty display of force and bravery, chased bad fox away.

Everyone agreed that maybe this Chirkendoose be OK. And once they got to know him better, invited him back to the hen house where they all live happily to this day.

[RandyL]

This is the first time that i ever sat in front of this computer and actually laughed out loud. .......:D Chirendoose.....thats some funny stuff!

[LadyGodiva]

Originally posted by RandyL
BBBAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA...........I got an idea........lets walk across the world...I'll have a Canadian patch on my back........you have an American patch........lets see who gets shot first......:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D


OUCH!!!:D

[jjwq8]

Randy,

"Lets walk across the world and see who gets shots first?"

No-one you goof. You walking on water and that means you a Prince of Peace :D

[Ron]

Hey Steve(sdaniels)...I think you're right about my comment about noticing people being miserable at airports. :p Guess I was just trying to make a point.

I think that Randy has some gross misconceptions about American people and the country.Although it's good to be proud of Canada.Some people just take it a bit too far...like sports fanatics sometimes :).I remember a friend of mine arguing with me how he should have more rights than me here since he,his parents,his grandparents and ancestors have made this country what it is and I'm just entering it now with all the obvious benefits.I thought that he was wrong but I couldn't win that one.

(whispering)I don't think that Randy's ever been there. :rolleyes:

I enjoy talking to and hanging out with people of different places,whether they are white or not.I get a lot out of it.However,I don't like talking to white,Chinese,or Indian kids who talk as if they are some kinda hip-hop star or grew up in NYC. :D
What's that about?Be yourself.I did at one time somewhat regret how I looked as a white guy.I shaved my head when I was 20.Some people thought that I was in the Army,that was OK.But then I was walking down Queen street in Toronto in my work clothes and a bunch of young skinheads wearing Army boots and bomber jackets greeted me with a "Hey brother" and a questionable salute. :eek: Luckily,we don't see much of those types anymore here in the city.I also don't shave my head bald anymore(don't wanna scare my Jewish customers :) ).Well,I might have to in a couple of years again when all I'll have left are the hairs on the side of my head...poor me.

[Ron]

Maurizio,you said that Italians in Italy are very racist.That reminded me of the story back in 1992 or around that time when the new Miss Italy was black and half the country was ticked off at the whole thing.Said they preferred their beauty to be fully Italian. :rolleyes:

Well,I hate to say it,but Holland is very racist as well.Especially against Muslims(many immigrants there from Morocco and Turkey.Then there are the people from Surinam who get a bad rap there.I find it funny that I've never come across a person from Surinam(Surinamese?)here in Toronto.We seem to have everyone else here.I find them to have a very unique and fascinating look and way about them.Eli,have you ever met people from there?I don't know what the reasons are that a lot of Dutch people look down upon them.

In Holland a couple of years ago there was a popular,well educated yet very cocky political candidate that made clear his views on immigration.He suggested that the Netherlands put a stop to most immigration especially if people were to come from poor countries.He was assassinated.So Holland also has extreme anti-racists,I suppose.Or maybe it was because he was openly gay and the shootist was extremely upset about that.Still,very shocking since many people there agreed with his views and he was likely to get very far in the political ranks.

I consider myself to be refreshingly anti-racist yet I'm not always very politically correct.This political correctness has been a real thorn in my side.I even get hell for saying "stewardess" sometimes.Or Eskimo.Or things like"my black friend"or "you know,that black contractor" when I definitely don't mean anything negative by it whatsoever.And who quickly wants to "correct" me...?...well brought-up and educated whities.I hate that.Go away.People surely don't want to be championed by these privileged know-it-alls.I hope that that political correctness is just a fad.Then,some of my friends' girlfriends or wives think that I'm a chauvinist because of some things I might say that they deem to be "incorrect" nowadays.I think that I have "old world values" instead :D.I'm never a chauvinist...broads hate that.

:D :p

[jjwq8]

Ron,

Why would shaving your head frighten away your Jewish clients unless you tell them it was a circuncision gone wrong?:D

Also please forgive me for agreeing with you but I fear that the awareness of colour, for colours sake has now gone way too far.

What attracts you to a beautiful bloom first and foremost is it's colour. Then on closer inspection the delicacy of it's structure, and if you are lucky, its sweet scent.

To expect us to exercise different criteria with another human being is ludicrous. Of course I notice colour, the only way I could not is if I am blind.

The critical issue is whether you determine the person on colour alone, not that you then describe that person to another using their colour as one of a number of references.

[LadyGodiva]

Originally posted by Ron
Maurizio,you said that Italians in Italy are very racist.That reminded me of the story back in 1992 or around that time when the new Miss Italy was black and half the country was ticked off at the whole thing.Said they preferred their beauty to be fully Italian. :rolleyes:

Well,I hate to say it,but Holland is very racist as well.Especially against Muslims(many immigrants there from Morocco and Turkey.Then there are the people from Surinam who get a bad rap there.I find it funny that I've never come across a person from Surinam(Surinamese?)here in Toronto.We seem to have everyone else here.I find them to have a very unique and fascinating look and way about them.Eli,have you ever met people from there?I don't know what the reasons are that a lot of Dutch people look down upon them.

In Holland a couple of years ago there was a popular,well educated yet very cocky political candidate that made clear his views on immigration.He suggested that the Netherlands put a stop to most immigration especially if people were to come from poor countries.He was assassinated.So Holland also has extreme anti-racists,I suppose.Or maybe it was because he was openly gay and the shootist was extremely upset about that.Still,very shocking since many people there agreed with his views and he was likely to get very far in the political ranks.

I consider myself to be refreshingly anti-racist yet I'm not always very politically correct.This political correctness has been a real thorn in my side.I even get hell for saying "stewardess" sometimes.Or Eskimo.Or things like"my black friend"or "you know,that black contractor" when I definitely don't mean anything negative by it whatsoever.And who quickly wants to "correct" me...?...well brought-up and educated whities.I hate that.Go away.People surely don't want to be championed by these privileged know-it-alls.I hope that that political correctness is just a fad.Then,some of my friends' girlfriends or wives think that I'm a chauvinist because of some things I might say that they deem to be "incorrect" nowadays.I think that I have "old world values" instead :D.I'm never a chauvinist...broads hate that.

:D :p


I used to have some good friends back home who were from Surinam. Yes, your spelling of 'Surinamese' was correct:D . Actually, my friend eventually moved to Holland, and she did tell me that there were some problems, but she was married to a Dutch guy, and his parents and friends loved her. She's a beautiful woman.

BTW, I love 'bald' guys:D The whole politically correct thing has gone to extremes now. It gets quite annoying. I actually don't mind when some chauvinistic guy makes some comment about my place being in the kitchen. I get a good laugh because I know he is kidding, and I also know that I'm a very capable woman.

I was visiting the other forum I mentioned previously, and one of the topics going is a talk about Americans (they're all racists, killers etc).... and of course some of these people are Trinis living in Canada/England. I'm amazed at how stupid some of my people could be. They have this impression of the US that is so narrow, that I'm forever stunned by their and other's perceptions. I suppose it's the same when we take a look at the man on thes street here who believes that ALL muslims are suicide bombers.

Why can't the world think more like our mud/tile guys???:D

Love you guys.

Eli

[Maurizio Bertoli]

Dear Eli:
I'm amazed at how stupid some of my people could be.
I stopped doing that (being amazed that is) long ago!! ;) :shades:
Why can't the world think more like our mud/tile guys???
Well, if you take Steven Hauser out of the picture (he's half breed, you know ... half Greek and half German! Could you think of anything worse than that?!) And ... oh yes, There's Sonny, too: he's a Cherokee or somethin"! ... (We don't want to deal with them indjan do we now!!) we're all good ol' non-racist guys! :D :D :D
Ciao,
Maurizio

[Hobbit]

Boy Maurizio...you're about to stir up a real hornet's nest now...step into a quagmire up to your neck, you are.....;)

I happen to be of American Indian descent too. My Grandmother was a bonafide Cherokee squaw. My mother was born on the Cherokee reservation in Oklahoma. I have studied about the trials of the Cherokee nation and have followed the "Trail of Tears." I can also handle a bow, tomahawk and knife.........in case you're interested. ;)



:):)

[LadyGodiva]

Originally posted by Hobbit
Boy Mario...you're about to stir up a real hornet's nest now...step into a quagmire up to your neck, you are.....;)

I happen to be of American Indian descent too. My Grandmother was a bonafide Cherokee squaw. My mother was born on the Cherokee reservation in Oklahoma. I have studied about the trials of the Cherokee nation and have follwed the "Trail of Tears." I can also handle a bow, tomahawk and knife.........in case you're interested. ;)



:):)


Hobbit, no wonder you're so NORMAL! Have you been to Oklahoma? Were you born in OK? I've been out to the Trail of Tears production in a place called Tahlequah in Ok (not too far from where I live). I was just discussing the Native American Indians with my daughter, because she asked me how come they never seem to be involved in the affairs of this country. She was studyhing some history there, and wanted to know also why we don't have street signs with Indian names, or any politicians in the DC etc. The other thing she found interesting and puzzling was why the Indians seem to stay to themselves... how come they're not out there fighting for equal rights/opportunities. Am I starting something here? Sure hopes so, because I'd like to know as well. We were driving through Texas and saw serveral "MLK" avenues or streets, yet I've never seen a Sitting Bull Ave!

Is this a case of the squeaky wheel?

Eli

[LadyGodiva]

Originally posted by Maurizio Bertoli
Dear Eli:

I stopped doing that (being amazed that is) long ago!! ;) :shades:

Well, if you take Steven Hauser out of the picture (he's half breed, you know ... half Greek and half German! Could you think of anything worse than that?!) And ... oh yes, There's Sonny, too: he's a Cherokee or somethin"! ... (We don't want to deal with them indjan do we now!!) we're all good ol' non-racist guys! :D :D :D
Ciao,
Maurizio


Maurizio! What a mischief make you are :D But then again, you're Italian... what can we expect from you mafia people? Ooppssss am I going to lose those recipes you PROMISED me FREE of charge?

I don't know why I'm still amazed by what people say and do. But then again Maurizio dearest, you still amaze me;)

Eli

[flatfloor]

Lady G, I don't know about Oklahoma but here on L.I. and all over NY state we have Indian names on towns and streets all over the place. Have your daughter look at a map.:)

[Ron]

Sadly,our Native Indians don't get a lot of recognition here either.

I'm so happy that you like bald guys,Eli. :D :) Just a few more years I figure. :rolleyes:

[Steven Hauser]

;)

[RandyL]

I think that Ron has some gross misconceptions about my perceptions. :p

[John Bridge]

Well, I come from a place that pays tribute, in name at least, to the Indians who were there when the white man arrived. I was born in Seattle, the name of which is a white man's concoction for the name of a local Indain chief whose name they couldn't pronounce correctly. Seattle is how it came out. I went to school in the little town of Mukilteo, the name of another Indian. Can't remember what the word means.

We played backetball with the team in Snohomish, and I fished in the Skycomish River. I picked apples in a place called Wenachee, and my brother keeps his boat in a slip on the Duomish River (Help me, Mike. :) ) I've murdered all the names. I was a kid when we moved away, but the area is littered, yes littered with Indian names. Of course, they're all in a state named Washington. ;)

[RandyL]

My mothers side are Algonquin.......or Cree as some would say. Most still live on the reservation in Golden Lake, a couple hours from here. I don't see them much, but if I want to get hammered I know where to go. I also get to enjoy the fabulous world of the "Indian Status" pay no tax card. :D

[Hobbit]

Eli...

Yes, I've been to Ok. several times to visit, and many times just passing through. The Cherokee history is a long and colorful one. The Oklahoma band originated in North Carolina and migrated(??) to Oklahoma (Trail of Tears).

The Native Americans have received far less recognition and press than the other minorities here. In general, there are two groups of American Indians (class distinction). One holds to the old ways and tries to preserve the heritage and the history of the tribal society. The other integrates fully into modern U.S. society and is slowly diluted in our "melting pot." These class distinctions appear to cross all tribal boundaries.

There are some places in the U.S. where Native Americans are held in high regard. In others they are merely another ethnic group that are slowly being absorbed. And sometimes, even now, you can find hatred and bigotry that manifests itself towards these early first Americans.......just like you can if you look hard enough around the many small cultural centers in the U.S. that are populated by societal groups (Hispanics, Hmong, Chinese, Italians, Irish, etc.).:(

[smee]

howdie All -

I've been reading this post - it's a really good one.

I'd like to tell a little story. Every day I walk my dogs out at this amazing place on the edge of America - the Northern California Coast - staring out into the Pacific Ocean.
One early morning I walk out the the this bluff, there's a little tiny beach and huge rocks jutting out of the ocean near the shore. An amazing place. So, as I said, on day up onto the hill this little guy walks up in shorts and a tshirt and tevas. he's soaked and smiling. He looks like a dark haired harpo! hello he says, I say hello. He immediately says "I swim in ocean every morning!"
Naturally, I say "Wow, isn't it too cold", he laughs a little and says "I am from Siberia". He has been here 9 years, he loves it! Raves about it. And everytime I see him he has a great smile on his face. I try to learn a little Russian - ha and we talk about the good and bad things about Russia and the good and bad things about America.

I live near and work in San Francisco - the race thing and all other ills are shoved in your face here all the time...I'm convinced that they just want to keep talking about it instead of moving past it. The media does the race issue NO good turn - as it does most sensational issues. There are people everywhere from everywhere - and I think it's much more facinating to find out about where they came from and I always ask what they think about America. All of them - thousands of people I've met - all say they love it. To me it makes me feel great that in light of all the horrible things said about America, and Americans true or not - people still come here because it still is the quintessential melting pot. Damn straight!

Lady G - what a cool post - and everyone - what great comments!

Ciao!!

[Hobbit]

Hi Linda..

Simulpost!!:)

:):)

[Maurizio Bertoli]

Geez!! What the hell is this place?
It sounds like America!! :D :D :D

Eli:
About the Mafia thing ... you'd better believe it! And don't you ever forget it!! :mad: :shades:
And about the free Italian recipes ... not until you tell me who's the chick in the picture!! ;) :D :D
Let me tell ya: you're quite amazing, too!! ;)
Ciao,
Maurizio

[jjwq8]

So just how exactly do "Native Americans" describe themselves. Wasn't it the Cheyenne who simply called themselves "the people"?

If we are being poitically correct (ptooee) then shouldn't the entire reference to Indians, indeed Americans, be dropped?

Eli referred to Caribs describing American killers living in London :eek:.

Damn.

We need to tighten up on our visa control :D

[flatfloor]

Hmong?

[Hobbit]

Jeremy....I will not presume to answer for all American Indians or Native Americans...In my admittedly somewhat limited perspective, these people refer to themselves by their tribal names. And when speaking collectively (using our language), "Native Americans."

Jim...the Hmong people are indigenous to Southeast Asia. Most of them migrated here in the aftermath of the Vietnam conflict. They have their own language (Hmong), customs, and societal infrastructure. And have assimilated quite readily into the American way of life. There are fairly large communities in several locations in the U.S. (North Carolina among them).

:):)

[flatfloor]

Thanks. :)

[LadyGodiva]

Could someone from Canada tell me if the following is true please:


"Curry Flavours u telling me that an engineer or a doctor with a degree from india is less qualified than one who has a Canadian degree ????????????The universities in these coutries are far superior than that of any canadian university expecially with engineering degrees. I am myself studying electrical engineering up here and there are many older guys in my program with experience and degrees from other countries but are unable to get a qualified job in their profession without first completing four years of university learning stuff that they already know like the back of their hand. These guys are the lucky ones because they could afford to do this but what about the people that come up with their families and they are to sole bread winners of the family. They have a responsibility for their kids and work these low paying jobs like cab drivers just to make ends meet for the rest of their lives or untill they save enough money to go to school for four years to get a canadian degree. A doctor or engineer with 20 years experience in another country has to start from the begining this is not right !!!!!!!!!!


This is from that famous forum I keep talking about. I once heard that there are at least three sides to every story, so I'm thinking of some folks claim they had degrees from other countries and they are not getting jobs, there must be some kind of problem.

[Ron]

I suppose if I went to school for 8 years and worked as a lawyer in my own country,and then had to clean restaurants for peanuts in the new country,I'd be kinda disheartened too.But I'd probably have been made aware of that before deciding to emigrate.

It's true,I often talk to cab drivers here and find out that they were civil engineers,doctors,geologists,etc.Met a Venezuelan housekeeper who was a architect in her country.I don't find feel sorry for them though.I think that they must've known before coming over.

It's still the land of opportunity here.You just have to work hard,meet the right people,make connections and prove your mettle.Doesn't matter where one goes,he or she simply has to keep a positive attitude. :)

[LadyGodiva]

Ron,

You sound like a positive person. I met a Russian woman at college who claimed she was a doctor (or at least qualified as one) in her native country. Anyway, she was working on a masters degree in education, and wanted to get to that degree via a shorter route. Only problem was that she could not produce any papers to prove that she was ever in medial school! She had been hired to teach Russian in middle school, but was having to go through the steps as the rest of us to get her masters. Who knows? some of these people might have had all the knowledge and experience they claim to have had... Maria, the Russian always found ways to get out of producing the paperwork though... there was a fire in Moscow...or 'the system is very inefficient', so papers take forever to be tracked down. I don't think my university ever bought her wild stories:D

And they say Americans are dumb? I don't think so!hehe

As you said, if you're some big whig in your land, why come over here??? Happy Easter Ron!

Eli

[jjwq8]

Eli....

I met a politician once with the same results:D

[LadyGodiva]

JJ, and which politician was that? Maggie or Tony?:D

[Maurizio Bertoli]

I personally fail to see the issue.
How can anybody move to a new country and expect to have his or her formal education recognized right away? I met an MD from Rumania back in the early 80s who just ran away from his country and moved to the USA as a political refugee. He didn't complain that he had to go through some serious testing before being accepted as a doctor in this country, too.
Are you an engineer or whatever in your own country? Good! The question is: Why do you want to move? Is it because of political oppression? Is it because you don't have as many opportunties there as you would have here? Fine. Whatever the answer is, you can't expect that a new community - that doesn't know the first thing about you - accepts you with open arms without checking you out just because you're gorgeous!
Ciao,
Maurizio

[LadyGodiva]

I totally agree with you Maurizio. I've found that many foreigners to this country have some rather unrealistic ideas. They seem to think that the USA should be honoured by their presence (well, yes, it's true that I feel this way, but hey, I'm Lady Godiva)!! Seriously though, I've always found most Americans to be very charming, and very willing to accept me. I've gotten so many 'we're happy to have you' comments wherever I go that I feel quite loved and appreciated here :)

Yesterday I went shopping with my adorable daughter and we met a lady who said she was from Persia (my daughter thought it sounded so much better than Iran), and she told us that she LOVES America and Americans. My daughter was surprised because she got the impression that folks on that side of the world hated all Americans. I believe it's good for Americans to hear how some of us view their country. This woman had a degree in her country, but when she got here, she decided to switch and study something else. She said it was a wonderful experience being in the classroom with Americans and learning not only the subjects she had chosen to study, but learning how Americans think as well.

I can vouch for that as well. One of the greatest things I believe I accomplished in this country wasn't just my degree, but the experience I had in the classroom with my professors and other students. I learned that not all Americans are stupid (foreigners are famous for saying that)...that there are extremely intelligent and resourceful youngsters out there...that many professors are quite liberal in their thinking, and extremely well-mannered (contrary to what the Brits think about Americans and their manners, etiquette etc)...that many American parents have done a wonderful job of raising their children (not all teens in college party every day/have sex with everyone else/take drugs etc). And most of all, there is actually an appreciation for having older students and foreign students in the classroom. They WANT to hear what we think of this country, whether it's positive or negative.

I think the Yanks on this board are gonna love me even more now:D

John did pay me to say the above...just for the record. He is a Yank, isn't he???? :)

Eli:

[flatfloor]

WELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL:uhh:

[RandyL]

:talk: :talk: :talk: :talk: :talk: :talk: :talk: :talk: :talk: