Tile School Fund

[John Bridge]

The Ceramic Tile Education Foundation has been operating at a loss. Tuitions comprise the biggest percentage of the tile schools income, and tuitions are high. Couple this with transportation and living expenses while at the school and attendance is simply not affordable to most prospective students.

The school is also supported by the TCA up to a point and by corporations. Most of the corporate support is in the form of products and supplies. Cash is always in short supply.

Tile Your World and the JB Forums have added a "product" to the online store. It is now possible to "buy" a donation to the tile school with your credit card. We urge you to go to the store and choose the amount you can afford. Donations start at $25.

Donations are tax deductible.

The JB Tile Advice Forums are free, and no one expects remuneration. If, however, you might be looking for a way to kick a little something back in, helping support the tile school would be a good way to do it.

http://tileyourworld.com/catalog

[Sponsored Links]

[madmax]

I don't seen any point in supporting a school that is training my competitors. The school should raise their tuition and pass the costs onto the individuals that are using the service.

[Maurizio Bertoli]

I totally disagree with you, Madmax. You can't tile the entire world by yourself. The trade needs fresh blood all the time and I'd rather have young fellows with some good training enter the scene that some of the morons that we all know are out there on the loose.
It is probably because I run a little school myself, but I'm 100% partial to proper training. Everything that aim at improving the overall image of a trade gets my vote! Yes, in a perfect world the revenues from tuition should be it. But we don't live in a perfect world, do we?!

John:
I'm not in the tile setting business and I don't know the first thing about that particular school, but I'll gladly give a little contribution. But before I do that I want to be assured by you that the maintaining of that school is a cause worth pursuing. Your judgement is good enough for me.
Ciao and good luck,

[John Bridge]

Maurizio,

What more do you want me to say? I caused the item to be placed in the store because I think it's worthwhile. Oh, I get it. You think it's a beer fund for the moderators, don't you? :D

Max,

You and I gotta have a talk one of these days. ;)

[Dog paws]

I’ve been to the CTEF several times. I received hands on training in products such as mud, Chloraloy, Kerdi, and many more too numerous to mention. From obscure theory to proven practice, the CTEF covers it all.
As far as I’m concerned, the CTEF is the backbone of the tile industry. Any support from the DYIer or the pro, will help to facilitate quality installation.
And like Maurizio says,” Education before any sale!”.

[bgamel]

Ok. I bit. I tried to chip in to your beer fund but the checkout counter didn't recognize my email address and I, of course, have forgotten my password...so now what? Quickly, before everyone sobers up.....

Beth G.

[cx]

Why, ain't you just the sweetest thang, Beth. :) Thank you.

I'll ping DaveM, he's the onliest one knows how to fix stuff in the store. Or anywhere else on the site, for that matter.

I'm assuming this isn't a problem on our end but, rather, just a password problem on your end? Dave can prolly find your password somewheres. I think. :D

[davem]

Thank you Beth. I sent you a P.M. :)

[WilliamL]

Max,Poor tradesmen hurt the industry as a whole.When prospective tile customers are walking in a mall or their neighbors house and see a failed installation they dont think about the hack who set the tile,they think of tile as being a bad product.The only way we can combat this is by arming other tradesman with the right skills and knowledge to make this industry grow and prosper.

[Maurizio Bertoli]

Dear John:
You think it's a beer fund for the moderators, don't you?
Well, knowing you the thought did cross my mind!! But you know what? Hell, even if the money ends up in the the moderators' "beer belly", it's still a worthy cause!! :D :D :D
I'll send my contribution right now.
Ciao and good luck,

[John Bridge]

I have just visited that most secret area in the back room of the store where Dave keeps all our little slips of paper, and I found that half a dozen people have contributed to the CTEF. I'm very happy -- touched -- by your generosity. It's a great beginning. I know Mr. Gobis is going to be pleased as well. He's in Dallas right now giving a seminar, but we'll get him in here when he gets back to South Carolina.

I won't publish amounts, but I would like to list the names of those who have contributed so far.

Jeff Deline (the very first) :)

Michael McIntyre

Dale Gaskill

Tom Hulse

Polly Snell*

Elizabeth (Beth) Gamel (I'm buyin' Corona with this one.)

Maurizio Bertoli (Gobis likes Jack Daniels) :D

Polly actually bought my book, but she made this comment on the order form. I will of course contribute her purchase price:

"Pollytile says: I want to help contribute towards the Ceramic Tile Education Foundation by purchasing John Bridge's book. I spent a lot of my own money (close to $2000) to attend for a week and am glad I went. I think what CTEF is doing is very important and I wouldn't want to see it gone."


I thank you all. :)

[John Bridge]

Allen Goodrich just contributed.

We thank you, Allen.

:)

[madmax]

Originally posted by Dog paws
I’ve been to the CTEF several times. I received hands on training in products such as mud, Chloraloy, Kerdi, and many more too numerous to mention. From obscure theory to proven practice, the CTEF covers it all.
As far as I’m concerned, the CTEF is the backbone of the tile industry. Any support from the DYIer or the pro, will help to facilitate quality installation.
And like Maurizio says,” Education before any sale!”.

1.. CTEF is the backbone of the industry???? Give me a break. The tile industry did just fine for the first thousand or so years without the CTEF and there were less failures then than there is now.


2. "Education before any sale". That sounds good but this school is teaching guys to do the work AFTER they already made the sale. Most of the guys that are doing work nowadays go out bid the work as cheap as possible and then theyt try to figure out how to do the work.

[madmax]

Originally posted by John Bridge
Maurizio,

What more do you want me to say? I caused the item to be placed in the store because I think it's worthwhile. Oh, I get it. You think it's a beer fund for the moderators, don't you? :D

Max,

You and I gotta have a talk one of these days. ;)


About what?

[madmax]

Originally posted by Maurizio Bertoli
I totally disagree with you, Madmax. You can't tile the entire world by yourself. The trade needs fresh blood all the time and I'd rather have young fellows with some good training enter the scene that some of the morons that we all know are out there on the loose.
It is probably because I run a little school myself, but I'm 100% partial to proper training. Everything that aim at improving the overall image of a trade gets my vote! Yes, in a perfect world the revenues from tuition should be it. But we don't live in a perfect world, do we?!

John:
I'm not in the tile setting business and I don't know the first thing about that particular school, but I'll gladly give a little contribution. But before I do that I want to be assured by you that the maintaining of that school is a cause worth pursuing. Your judgement is good enough for me.
Ciao and good luck,



I never said there should not be training. If someone wants to learn this trade or any other they can do it the same way I learned it, and the same way every other top contractor learned it. From the bottom up. Most of the contractors out there want to learn it from the top down. Those are the same guys you often refer to as "Michelangelo". They go into business undercut the professional contractors prices and then they want to go to some school that started a few years ago to learn all the things they should have learned BEFORE they even went into business. How do you feel about fabricators that don't know how to fabricate but they are undercutting your prices? I feel the same way about tile contractors that don't know how do mud work but they are bidding on it anyway. That is probably about 90% of the guys out there and on this board right now.

If you support this school you are supporting you competition. Let the school sand on its own two feet and charge full price. The price will then be passed on the the students who can then pass the price onto their customers. It is simple economics. All the professional contractors have to build their training costs into their prices. The new guys can do the same. If they can't afford to do so then so what. They will go out of business and the work will go to a legitimate contractor. The quality of work won't go down. The quality of work was better before the CTEF even went into business. You didn't learn from the CTEF. The guys that want to learn the business can still learn the way every top contractor learned it. From the bottom up.

[Steven Hauser]

Hi Madmax,

You know I have paid attention to you for a few years now. It may be unpopular to say but you do raise several legitimate points.

I believe that every person who knows anything enough to write answers for this board learned it exactly the way you did.

However, Here are a couple of questions.

Do you think that we should make it as tough on those coming up as it was on us? If so why?

Do you agree that there are more changes in the construction practices over the last 50 years than in the previous 500? If not, Why?

The CTEF does need to support itself, I have said so myself.

However, what can be wrong with people freely giving to it if they so choose.

Max. My sense is you know many good things and I bet you are a great contractor, but there are also many exciting new things to learn as well. Maybe you should come to SC and if you do I'll go to Clemson and buy you a couple of brews. :D

Let me know what you think.

[John Bridge]

Max,

Man, you're really upset, aren't you? Listen, I'll argue about this all you want to, but take it over to the Hangout or the Mud Box. Quit cluttering up my sticky thread. :D

There's a CTEF thread in the Hangout. Might be on the 2nd page. Find it, post to it and I'll be right behind you.

[Dave Gobis]

John and all, thanks for the help, appreciate it. Stopping home in WI and see the wife before heading back to SC.

Max, you got the wrong idea buddy. We do everything from tile 101 to advanced courses. These are ceramic tile educational and skill courses, not contractor courses. We don't pretend to offer contractor training, it is not within our scope. The courses are set-up like building blocks to provide a high level of knowledge and develop basic skills. They are perfect for the shop that can not afford the time or money for training or those that just want to learn more.

[kemguru]

Seems to me that John Bridge started training competitors when he wrote his first book. Then he went global in this training when he started this forum. Others joined this forum, maybe some of his competitors, and they started training their competitors. A second “competitor training book” was just released. I don’t know, but I bet John hasn’t given all his jobs away to his competitors. ;)

This website has many professional tile setters that educate other setters, as well as DIY’ers. We have pros in many other areas of construction/restoration that share their knowledge, and usually learn something in return.

When a mastic shower fails, folks usually don’t know enough to blame the installer. They usually blame tile, overall. Then they tell their friends/family about their unfortunate tile experience. Sales of shower inserts increase. Maybe, just maybe, someone was flipping through the phone book and circled your ad, but their sister talked them out of tile, because her mastic shower failed.

I know it sounds crazy, but this does happen. We compete with carpet, wood, concrete, plastic and so on. We NEED to have solid installs out there, so folks have a good experience, so they’ll recommend it to their friends/family.

Running a tile setting business, or any business, is much more than technical know how. We build relationships, we market, we have to deal with customer relations. Not to mention the back-end of the business, such as all the paperwork. :rolleyes: An average setter that’s great at those functions will take work from you left and right.

Bad competition scares me. The guys who bid jobs so low, I know they cant do a proper job. Good competition helps us. The ones who bid a fair price to get the job done, correctly. It’s these folks that are raising the bar as far as quality and pricing is concerned. They get more money for a better job. These folks help your business. It’s the low price, low quality, installers that you compete against. They lower the bar. You compete against $1 per foot tile installs, as well as all the other lower cost floor coverings. You are not competing with the $10/ft, educated installer, he has built a relationship with his customers and he’s busy. He’s not going to take work from you and you’re not going to take it from him. There’s enough work out there for everyone, as long as it’s being installed correctly.

So, Max, have you learned anything from this forum since you joined? ;)

[dwzemens]

Tim:

Your comments are well thought out. Your written remarks, although short, are both well said and a thumbnail sketch of how economics works.

I think this argument is over. :o

[madmax]

Originally posted by John Bridge
Max,

Man, you're really upset, aren't you? Listen, I'll argue about this all you want to, but take it over to the Hangout or the Mud Box. Quit cluttering up my sticky thread. :D

There's a CTEF thread in the Hangout. Might be on the 2nd page. Find it, post to it and I'll be right behind you.

I am not upset about anything. I am just calling it the way it is.

[madmax]

Originally posted by Dave Gobis
John and all, thanks for the help, appreciate it. Stopping home in WI and see the wife before heading back to SC.

Max, you got the wrong idea buddy. We do everything from tile 101 to advanced courses. These are ceramic tile educational and skill courses, not contractor courses. We don't pretend to offer contractor training, it is not within our scope. The courses are set-up like building blocks to provide a high level of knowledge and develop basic skills. They are perfect for the shop that can not afford the time or money for training or those that just want to learn more.

I dont have the wrong idea. You have the wrong perspective. Why should a professional contractor who charges top dollar which then allows him the time and money to properly train his employees help subsidize contractors that undercut prices and don't have the time and money to pay for training?

For those that want to go to the school, learn and pay the full cost of the course then good for them but for those that can not
afford the full cost, if they go out of business then oh well. The work will then go to the contractor down the street that is charging top dollar and can afford the full cost of training whether it is at your school or another. In the long run the quality of work will be better.

[John Bridge]

It's a free country, and this forum is a free marketplace of ideas. :)

Now, we can certainly use more money (for the CTEF, not for beer).

Well, we can always use money for beer, too. :D

[madmax]

Originally posted by Steven Hauser


Do you think that we should make it as tough on those coming up as it was on us? If so why?

Do you agree that there are more changes in the construction practices over the last 50 years than in the previous 500? If not, Why?

The CTEF does need to support itself, I have said so myself.

However, what can be wrong with people freely giving to it if they so choose.

Max. My sense is you know many good things and I bet you are a great contractor, but there are also many exciting new things to learn as well. Maybe you should come to SC and if you do I'll go to Clemson and buy you a couple of brews. :D

Let me know what you think.

1. It has nothing to do with being tough on those coming up. It is about doing things the right way. A person can't learn this trade or any other by taking a 2 day training course. After 2 days they still have less experience than a helper who has been on the job for a week.

2. There is nothing wrong with someone wishing to give freely at their choice but I am not going to give. My boss trained me. I train my men. Why should I pay to train someone elses? You even said the school should support itself.

[John Bridge]

Max, Please. ;)

Please take it to the deep end.

[bgamel]

Am I the only one that, when reading one of John's posts it translates into the voice of Sam Elliot? 'John Bridges' idn't a pseudonym is it John?:o) (can't do the smileys yet)

Beth G

[bgamel]

Hey, how'd that yawn get on there?!
Beth G.

[John Bridge]

Hey, that's one heck of a compliment, Beth. :)

I don't sound like him, though. I have a very deep and otherwise nondescript voice, sorta like . . . nah. :D

[muley]

I see no need to finance the CTEF. They need to be self supporting, just like me. I don't believe that they are the "backbone" of the tile industry either. I agree with madmax, you can only learn so much at school, the real learning is in the field. It just seems kind of cheesy to ask for money for the CTEF, if they can't finance themselves, then they need to find another gig. As far as quality installs benefiting all of us, I don't buy that either. So much of quality incompasses things beyond technical skill, such as ethics, not being lazy, staying informed of material upgrades etc. If the CTEF needs funding then they should raise their rates.

[John Bridge]

I've moved this thread to the Mud Box because apparently people can't read or they choose to ignore my requests. That's fine. We can have it out here. I'll make another announcement in the shallow end that will be closed to everyone except moderators.

It's one thing to disagree with what I say. Happens all the time around here. But to deliberately try to short-circuit a cause just because you personally don't believe it, well, that's carrying things too far. I won't have it.

If anyone goes back into the shallow end and starts this crap again, we'll cut 'em off. Fair warning.

Now, on the other hand, I'll be happy to continue the debate right here. Spout off all you want. :)

[Dog paws]

A funny thing happened to me when I attended my first clinic.
It was a Schluter seminar being held at a local distributor. Of course the rep was there to hawk his products but as he was demonstrating he was also bringing up things like "keying in mortar", "subfloor structure", expansion joints", etc. etc..
Right then and there I realized that I had spent the first 10 years of my tile setting career incorrectly trained, clueless and teaching my helpers some bad practices.
He arranged for me to visit the CTEF for a 3 day clinic and I haven't looked back since.
I agree that there isn't any substitute for experience and that a 5 day stint at a school ain't gonna make a tile man out of you.
In my case though, the turning point came while being exposed to the likes of the CTEF, NTCA and so on. So, through this boys eyes, the CTEF along with the NTCA, unions and any organization that takes the time to train, is the back bone of our trade.
Now I take my experience and the education I received and pass it on to rookies and sometimes even vets.

Now I have two question's for Muley and Madmax
Why do you hang around these boards?
Why bother pooh poohing a cause that others obviously feel is worthwhile?

[jjwq8]

Why the beefs?

If you support a football team for example and go to watch them at an away game then you are contributing to your competition and such contributions are not tax deductible unless you are entertaining to further your business.

This is a voluntary contribution. If you don't feel comfortable with it then just walk on by. Do you remonstrate with every panhandler that accosts you in the street?

[John Bridge]

There are two additional contrubutors.

Jeremy Wright (jjwq8)

Paul Myers (yersmay)

I've listed them in the shallow end as well.

Muchas Gracias, amigos. :)

[John Bridge]

I've slept, and I've cooled off a little. I pruned the remarks from this thread that I felt weren't doing the cause any good, and I re-posted it in the shallow end.

I want to repeat to Max and to Muley. I'll continue this debate here as long as you want to. Folks from the Advice Board are welcome to join in as well.

Furthermore, there are no hard feelings. I love a good argument. ;)

[kemguru]

Perspective

It’s a funny thing.

So you don’t want to help other companies? You’re afraid of competition?

You pay taxes, don’t you?

Are you familiar with the U.S. Small Business Administration?

How about Pell Grants?

I can’t even begin to rattle of all the Federal, Regional and local programs available to small business owners. Programs that give free money to these entrepreneurs. Programs that give money to students, no strings attached, to help with tuition to public, private and technical/trade schools.

This free money comes in many forms. Actual cash, tax breaks, other concessions and etc. A lot of this is free to those applying for it, but someone has to cover the costs.

You pay taxes, don’t you?

You might as well donate to a cause, directly. Bypass all the BS, so your funds are put to use. Take the deduction, so you pay for less red tape and administrative BS.

I donate funds to a few organizations. I’m sorry to say most of these well-known charities put, on average, 30 cents out of every dollar donated to direct use. The other 70 cents covers administrative costs, and usually mile high salaries for executives that make more in one year, than I have in the last 10 years combined. Sad.

Well…off to work I go. I have taxes to pay. I have to pay for the unemployed. I have to pay to train these folks, so they can get off unemployment. While I’m at it, I’m going to pay to help start their business for them. I’ll also help pay the wages for all those paper-pushers involved with making that happen.

Kidding! That’s Monday-Friday. Today is Saturday. I have to meet with the Architect overseeing a historic rehab project in my county. I might take it on. We’ll create a few temporary jobs in the process. These folks will learn MY trade, so they can put food on the table.

I am donating my time, materials and expertise. ;)

[jjwq8]

Tim

Wash your mouth and other chemical reaction chambers out with soap! what a vile accusation!

I do not pay taxes. :D

[e3]

everyone on this board is either helping teach others (train)or looking for help.how does this site differ from the CTEF as far as training the comp. which are you MAX?MULEY? GIVING OR GETTING? BOTH?

[Bea Tyler]

I don't wish to anger anyone or take sides but I'd just like to add that there are very few institutions of higher learning public or private that don't rely to some extent on donations. This has gone on as long as there have been schools in this country (centuries). So pretty much everyone who has a college education has in some way benefitted by someone's donation. Making better competitors benefits everyone, which is partly why people choose to donate.

Bea

[muley]

Apparently, I have struck a nerve here, that's too bad, however, I stand by what I say. I will apologize for posting on the advice thread when requested not to, but JB, I couldn't find the thread over here until now.
To the rest of you:
Comparing the CTEF hand out to Pell Grants is absurd! Pell are specifically designed to give educational oppurtunities to those who financially would not be able to do so.
Secondly, because donations are accepted be various organizations all across the country, this doesn't make any one organization deserve it, nor does it make the practice acceptable. This is the classic but very weak argument: everyboby does it so it must be okay. If you want to give to the CTEF that's your business, I don't care.
Thirdly, I am in no way "attacking" the CTEF. I'm sure the CTEF is very good at what they do, I just think they need to finance themselves. When I'm short on work I don't go around asking people to donate to the Muley fund. In fact, if I had the time & money, I would probably attend their classes, but not on somebody else's dime.
Finally, I am on this website, and many other's, for the same reason everyone else is, it's what I do, do well, and enjoy doing. I give advice when I can, ask for when I must, and never forget that a cold brew with your health in mind is all I can return.

[John Bridge]

Muley,

Like I said, no hard feelings. I think Bea hammered in a point, though. It's not unusual at all for people to donate to universities and colleges. So if I wanted to gather up donations for my favorite school, would you come on and tell me the school (college) ought to be able to support itself?

I think it's the same way with the CTEF or any other trade school for that matter.

[muley]

JB, If you want to donate that's find, I said it's none of my business. I donate to organizations too, I just don't ask others to. I believe that a donation should be for the right reasons, and those reasons are void once everyone knows about it. "Let thy left hand know not what thy right hand doeth." I'm not opposed to donations per se, but I am tired of being asked for money.

[kemguru]

Then scroll on by. I don’t see Max or Muley in the title of this thread, so it is not a direct solicitation for funds from either one of you. ;)

About Pell Grants, and such. You’re reading me wrong. Max said he doesn’t want to fund (train) competitors. I’m telling him that he already does, in many different ways.

You, Muley, don’t “buy” my bettering the industry stance, so I don’t know what to tell you.

Either one helps things along, or they stand on the sideline. I don’t care who you are, or where you’re coming from, but when you get a group of professionals together for a few days, good things happen. Look at the Ditra/thinset debate that goes on here. I’m not saying you have to attend the school to “help”, but the more you know, the more you bring to the table.

Two groups of professionals. One actively participates (funding, hands-on, debate, research) in the advancement of our industry. The other sits and waits for the hard work of others to pan out, so they can benefit from it, without ever giving back.

[muley]

Kem, I don't know a threads asking for donations until I read the thread, and at that point it's a little late to scroll on by.
I really don't believe that well trained tile setters necessarily helps the industry as a whole. You have people who are good at what they do, those who are so-so, and those who suck. If everybody was equally good and skill levels were exactly the same, then price would drive who gets the work. There simply is no denying that. So rates therefore would decrease until enough setters left the trade, then price would go back up in accordance with the laws of supply and demand. Effectively then, various skill levels are needed to justifiy various rates. It is the differentiation of skill level that establishes and justifies rates, and ultimately gives the consumer more options. Thus, one could conclude that the tile industry needs unskilled and poorly trained setters, as badly as it needs trained and quality setters.:p

[kemguru]

Originally posted by muley
I really don't believe that well trained tile setters necessarily helps the industry as a whole.

Really?

As I said before, tile competes with other floor coverings. If we have too many bad installs, folks will opt for the alternatives. Deflection is not an issue with carpet. ;) If someone gets burnt by a bad tile install, they’re less likely to go through it again, and worse yet, they’ll tell others about it. Fewer tiles will be sold…fewer tiles will be installed. Simple, really.

If people have a good experience with tile…well, you know. ;)

It’s about the big picture, Muley. I’m in this for the long haul. Many others are too, but just because they’ve done it one way for 30 years, doesn’t mean they’ve done it right for 30 years. These same folks will tell you they’ve not had a failure yet, but honestly, they don’t know. They don’t get the call to repair it. Either too much time has passed and the customer doesn’t remember, or know, who installed it. Or they just don’t want to call the guy back that screwed it up in the first place.

I’ve made a life’s work out of cleaning up other peoples’ messes. Rarely do they hear about their screw up. But I guarantee you that I’m not the only one that’s been called in to repair a job only to hear the customer say, “I should have installed wood.” ;)

[muley]

Did I just get on the John Bridge website and make an argument bestowing the virtues of bad tile setters? Sheeeeez! I'm getting outa here before I get hung. ;)

[kemguru]

:D

Hey…

If everybody was doing top-notch work, us restorer/repair guys would have a hard time feeding our families. I agree with a balance, as far as economics goes, but we need to have more good than bad. I don’t know if we’re there yet, but that’s the whole idea behind this thread, eh? :p :D

[muley]

Few things in life are finer then a vigorous disagreement. I am impressed with the civility of the site members, although JB seemed a little tense.;) Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree. :D

[John Bridge]

Nope, not tense at all when it comes to arguing. I did get a little pissed, though, when certain people ignored my request to move the "debate" over here. :) And you don't have to worry about getting on any list. From the very start of this site I swore allegiance to freedom of speech. It's necessary, and I respect it. :D

[BTM]

This is refreshing! Ever since I registered, Everyone has been patting each other on the back, kinda like bros.:aparty: I wondered if I was getting into some secret organization:p

Disagreement and debate is what makes us human, I guess.
I'll say this tho; those graduates from a trade school have more desire and ambition to do the job efficiently than the ssmo you hire from the bar. :stupid2: I for one wish more of em would come around asking for a job.

So, like when ya walk past the elf ringin the bell, :santa: and you don't feel like contributing, just look the other way...walk on bye.
OR, toss em some and say thanks. :shades:

[John Bridge]

Hi BTM,

Where you been hiding? There is plenty of disagreement around here. We just don't do it much in the shallow end because there is enough confusion in the minds of the weekend warriors when they get here. We don't need to add to it. ;)

So I guess you're in the trade? If I knew it I don't remember your name. What sort of business do you run? :)

[RandyL]

This has nothing to do with this thread, but, I agree that we need that whole balancing of poor tile setters.. I live in a small town with 2 1/2 flooring stores ...I say 2 1/2 because one store was so busy that they turned half of the store into a flea market. Anyhow, I've been getting most of my jobs because I have more knowledge of setting then the other stores. Probably 75-80% or so. The other 20% people just get use to do their work for what ever reason. Last week I made $1120 because of knowledge. One job I used Ditra and the home owners son was an architect, so getting that job was easy. And the second job I denied the lady to get her floor tiled because it was in desperate need of beefing up. She ended up getting the floor fixed (I don't do that type of carpentry yet) and I ended up tiling it in the end. Both clients were very pleased with my deisre to make their floor the best I could. Basically what I'm saying is that the poor setters and poor knowledge that people get from other stores actually puts money in my pocket. :)

[fishinfarmgirl]

Speaking of learning and teaching...(that IS what this conversation is all about isn't it???)

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts."
~John Wooden~

L

[madmax]

Originally posted by John Bridge
Nope, not tense at all when it comes to arguing. I did get a little pissed, though, when certain people ignored my request to move the "debate" over here. :) And you don't have to worry about getting on any list. From the very start of this site I swore allegiance to freedom of speech. It's necessary, and I respect it. :D

So you wanted everyone to reply to the original thread with 18 posts and then cross post to a thread on a completely different board with 0 posts?

[John Bridge]

Max,

I was alluding to a thread we had going on the CTEF a week or two ago. You could have found it had you tried. Also, you know how to start a new thread. I don't want to argue about what I did or didn't do to this thread or that thread. Argue about the CTEF.

I did keep all your remarks on here.

;)

[WilliamL]

c'mon Max,relax.No need to argue just to argue.

[bgamel]

For the sake of arguement (which I subscribe to the BTM philosophy) in 24 hrs I have already had the value of my donation returned to me by the advise I received on this website. I would be out buying a $40 dollar blade if I hadn't run across this bit of info. So I have seen an excellent return on my investment.

As for the craftmanship involved in tiling, my DIY buddy and I have a renewed respect for the skill, training, experience, talent required to do a job right. I will still probably do small projects in the future but I will, WITHOUT A DOUBT, leave the bigger projects to the skilled craftsman. I hope the one I pick will Not be an OJT'er learning from another OJTt'er, unless the teacher has good fundemental knowledge of his craft...but who's to say? Classrooms do offer a profession an opportunity to establish standardization of fundemental proceedures and proven technique for the newbie to go out into the field and perfect. It only serves to increase the confidence of the consumer when a standard is identifiable and maintained...regardless of the profession. Beth G.

[John Bridge]

C'mon, Mad Max. I know you're out there. Let's smoke a peace pipe. :)

[Dave Gobis]

Hugs.

[fishinfarmgirl]

Are we havin' a group hug Dave? Huh? Huh? Huh?

Sounds like a great plan to me! :D

L

[Dave Gobis]

Hey I been trying but you know these macho contractor types, lol.

[fishinfarmgirl]

:shades:

Testosterone...testosterone...testosteron! :D

L

[jjwq8]

Linda,

Your training as a body butcher is patently paying dividends. you can now take a match-stick man and remove his head and upper limbs without any ill side effects :D

[John Bridge]

Dave, I keep tellin' ya. I ain't huggin' ya. Can you spell handshake? :D

Just kidding. I'll hug you if you get Michael B. to join in.

:D

[Hobbit]

I don't know JB.....I'll hug Linda.....But I ain't huggin you!;):D












:D:D

[jjwq8]

Before you all go in for this hugging thing can I suggest that you each take a sheep-dip in thin set, then maybe the hugs will stick:D

[John Bridge]

Theresa Doyon (tdoyon) has contributed to the cause. :-)

[T_Hulse]

Ok I gotta jump in here, this is driving me nuts. Max n Muley, this is an important point: You're not just helping train your competitors, your helping your competitors to become MORE EXPENSIVE. TCA trained installers have to charge more than the hacks who steal all those jobs, not just because they're better, but mainly because they do more work. Often it's extra hidden work that the homeowner can't easily see or understand.
It's a miserable fact the the hacks ARE getting plenty of work without any decent training. If they were trained properly they would still have a full workload, but now they would have to raise their prices to account for all the extra hidden work, like putting thinset under backerboard (and a thousand other similar things).
The more people that we can educate to start taping joints & using thinset under CBU, & etc, then the fewer installers there will be to lowball prices because of unreasonably low quality. You & I make more money! :nod: Wouldn't it be great if you could go out & do a bid, and not have to worry some hack would be able to undercut you on price 10 or 20 or 30% just because he cut's corners that he doesn't even know are wrong?
Plus, our trade in general gets a better name, allowing us to gain or preserve market share against other types of flooring; more work for us all. A buck for CTEF is a buck for tile in general.

One other thing, a quick analogy. When that guy at the office who helped you with that computer problem last week comes in your office with his daughter's magazine drive... well even if you don't think you need any magazines you still take the form & pick one or two. Now if you're readin this post then chances are that JB's helped you out a little. Now's he's showin you the form, he's not making a buck off it, and it just won't kill you. C'mon, ante up. :)

[LPUT]

How many of these "hacks" who underbid qualified installers would take the time to get themselves to SC and the CTEF?

The CTEF is great for setters who want to make themselves more valuable, but I can't see it making any kind of impact on the tens of thousands of hacks out there.

[Dave Gobis]

I have avoided this thread because of the time it would take to make some appropriate comments but for some reason I got up early today so here we go....

If your talking 10's of thousands, that’s the whole industry from a statistic point of view.

http://data.bls.gov/servlet/oep.nioem.servlet.ActionServlet?Action=empior&MultipleSelect=000000&Sort=ws_emp_b&StartItem=0&Resort=No&ResortButton=No&Base=2002&Proj=2012&SingleSelect=4720440747&Type=Occupation&Number=10

I really appreciate the help given here and all the comments both positive and negative. I do take exception to the assessment that training is a bad thing from a competitive point of view. Nothing is further from the truth. If you’re going to compete it is a good thing to be on the same page. Through various participation in contractor organizations and my own personal experience you need good competition. There were probably three reasons I sold my business.

1. Reached a set goal

Sounds corny to many but for any business you need a plan. The plan many require revision from time to time but you need to focus and set goals. Otherwise, you just wonder aimlessly taking what comes along and hope good things develop. A plan makes things happen.

2. Lack of good competition

Over the years most of the real (hourly wage paying) tile contractors) died off, retired, or became otherwise non-existent. This left me to compete with start up operations who don't know what the term GPM means or floor covering stores who did not provide the same level of expertise or service but used our pricing as a model. To overcome this I need a plan revision. My decision was to expand for which I had the financial ability but not the manpower. This would put me on a level in which fewer could compete and those that could would tend to have some savvy as they were already proven to be successful. But, implementation of that plan failed to materialize due to item 3.

3. Lack of available skilled labor

Took 15 years to put together 10 GOOD tile mechanics. At various times we were up to 20 or more but the skill and production always proved lacking at that level. Never know unless you try though. After about that time I became very active in various organizations that assured that good training programs were one of their primary benefits of membership. We even became unionized in the process with assurances there would be a good group of productive trained installers available. As you might imagine all this participation proved to be for naught as none of the promised benefits materialized. One of those organizations was CTEF.

Frustration of long hours and inability to reach the next level lead me to sell. We were at the top of our game in our area but it was increasingly difficult to stay there, time to go. Caught me a big fish within weeks of listing the business. Once that was done I had the ability to do what I wanted to do. What I wanted to do was make sure that others had the means reach their goals and/or to provide education opportunities that would lead others to their goals in an industry that had been very good to me. I saw CTEF as the vehicle most likely to achieve that. I became more involved in the board and eventually ended up in my current position. My goal with CTEF (and that of our Board of Directors) is to provide knowledge-based courses that lead to good paying jobs in the tile industry. We are not content to tell someone you must key in the mortar and hold your trowel at a 45-degree angle preferably combing your mortar in a parallel position to setting the tile, we want you to know why. Once you know why you won't be so opposed to the concept. And so it is with everything we teach, our thrust is why and how, not just how. This process does scare people who are afraid of knowledgeable good quality installers taking their jobs. If they chose to continually educate themselves they will be able to compete from a skill level perspective. A good tile setter does not make a good contractor or businessman. That is not our focus or within our realm. I am happy to say that thousands ( yes, really ) people have taken the educational opportunities that we offer or host over the last 8 years. Now we are taking the next step to continue to grow. We have added another 3000 s/f to our 6500 s/f facility and are now looking for additional staff. We have reached a threshold of what we can charge for courses and still get attendance. This ceiling makes additional staff challenging. We can get all the product we want but tile and thinset don't spend well at the grocery store. I had this discussion with John and he graciously offered to see what assistance he could provide. We have several other irons in the fire that may also collectively contribute to achieving our goal. Every little bit helps and I am very pleased with the contributions of this site and many of the individuals that participate have made to our continued success.

[John Bridge]

Just bumping this back up. Don't want it to get lost. :)

[Morpheus]

Dave Gobis,
Well said. :nod:

[e3]

And I thought it was that the winters were to long in WI. so you took your Harley South.

[Ron]

Dave,do high schools recognize your school?Do you go to schools to introduce and promote the CTEF?

If I was aware of the tile,terrazzo,marble school that is in Toronto,years ago,I definitely would have gone.Instead,I learned by doing...often doing it wrong :D.Now I do it right,by the way.Still,I may yet attend one of your specialized courses.I'll bring you some Canadian donuts.

I've been in the business since I was 12 so had I known of schooling for the trade,I would've been happy to pay for full courses.So would,I'm sure,some of the young,independent tile contractors that work out of my father's store.The trade would have been a lot better for us if we had started out with the right education and direction.

Today,I think it's time for high schools to embrace post-secondary tradesman education again.For the most part,the school that I went to laughed at the option of blue-collar type work for students who were somewhat ambitious.I think that they did a great disservice to many with that notion.I mean,how many people can you squeeze into the financial,computer and medical fields.I bet many of them woulda been happier doing what we do anyway.It makes perfect sense to me,with renovations being at a high,and with tile consumption steadily climbing(as it always has).

So forget some of those negative comments about sponsors for the tile school.The CTEF is much needed.I've heard some great reviews of your school from people who have gone there.I hear it is top-notch.

[Dave Gobis]

Yes, we tried High Schools and Trade Schools. A typical example is the Knoxville, TN Vo-tech school. They have the ability to run three seperate groups ( or tiers )of students in a construction trades course and can't fill one plus the student quality is low. We also worked with the local Tri-County Tech college drawing on a metro of 745,000. Ran in the course schedule for two years, got maybe a half dozen students. If you look at the big picture, it would be difficult to maintain many mulitple fixed program locations when such a limited amount of new installers are needed in a specific area. Our current SC facility is well used. I would guess we lose maybe a third of those interested due to location. To provide the same services on a broader and more local scale would be financially unfeasable. Right now we are also doing Dallas, Anaheim, in addition to the SC location. We need to expand on those locations in my opinion and maybe add a Midwest location. We have tried KC sessions twice with no luck. We have hit on a good formula that we are currently using and want to expand on that model.