Well I have been reading quite a bit about tiling and have reviewed both John's book and Michael Byrne's book and videos. Man I just hope I am not biting off more than I can chew:confused: My wife an I are building a 2100 sq ft ranch in Muskego, WI with radiant heat both in the basement and on the main floor. Main floor construction will be built using High performance ¾ inch t&g with 11-7/8 pro 130 TGI joists. On top of the high performance ¾ inch t&g will be 1.25 inches of Maxxon's Therma-Floor®. Therma-Floor is a gypsum underlayment designed to pour over hot water tubes. More info at http://www.maxxon.com/product_detail.asp?ID=4 In all areas receiving tile, Maxxon's plastic net is installed over the radiant heat tubing. In areas to be tiled Maxxon Overspray applied before tiling begins to prevent Thema-Floor removing to much moisture from the thinset. My deam is to tile the Foyer, Sunroom, Guest Bathroom floor, and Master Bathroom floor, shower (mud floor with CBU walls), tubdeck and the common wall that the shower and tub share. All tiles are porcelain, except for the master bathroom shower/wall tiles they are ceramic. Question 1) Am I biting off more than I can chew? Question 2) How does having the Therma-Floor for a base affect tile installation? Thanks Peter

#1- It all depends on the Time constraints you put on yourself.If you want this done quickly so you can move in,if you have a job you go to daily and are going to do this evenings and weekends, it could take you a long time to complete all this work.Can you do it,yes and we will help you.Can you do it in a couple weekends and evenings.No,mot even if you were experianced.So you need to decide on the Time priority issue. #2Gypcrete products are not the best base for a tile installation.Gypcrete will deteriorate under moisture conditions.As an example,Americinn uses gypcrete over spancrete for thier units.within 5-6 years repairs become frequent in bathroom and hottub areas particularly.For some reason they refuse to use a membrane over the gypcrete for initial installations even though they continually have problems. A moisture test should be done on the gypcrete and when it passes,a waterproofing membrane should be used.C-Cures prored, Schluter Ditra with Kerdi band,Bonsal wp-600 are all products that would work.the Best option is the membrane material in combination with an SLC(self leveling cement) if you have the additional room for height.Each membran combined with SLC has differant methods of installation.The biggest advantage is that you will end up with a much harder surface that will be level and flat.Gypcrete in my experiance does not level well. So, welcome to the Forum Peter and where is Muskego??Anywhere near Hayward?:)

HI Peter, Welcom. :) Having lived and worked in the Sunbelt for so long I can't remember anything else, I can't help you on radient floor heat. I do agree with Todd that gyp base products are not the best under a tile installation. I would much prefer to see portland cement/sand mortar. No matter what is used as a float, the Tile Council of America does recommend that a membrane be used between the substrate and the tile when the installation contains radiant heat tubes or mats.

Reviewing many of the messages on the board many people use Laticrete 9235 or C-Cure Pro Red 963. Both appear to work as waterproof membranes as well as anti-fracture membranes. Since the entire main floor of the house is Gypcrete based, one of these products will most definitely have to be used in each of the bathrooms. I would also like to waterproof the shower walls and shower seat. Maybe even the preslope and the final mud as well. You know the old belt and suspenders approach. I will also use one of these products in the other areas of the house that will be tiled. So knowing that which product is the better choice? Is one easier to apply than another? Is one better for waterproofing the shower than the other? Is one cheaper than the other? Can I use thinset with either or do I need something special? How do I choose? Is there something better? Thanks (hope I am making sense) Peter:bow:

Well welcome Back Peter. I use alot of the Prored 963.It is an easy product to use.Laticretes has a fabric used with thiers and may be a bit more difficult to do larger areas.The Prored can be troweled on or rolled on with a paint roller and or Brushed on with a paint brush.Ive ysed it residentially and it has been spec'd on several commercial Jobs.It runs around 100.00 a gallon and comes in a couple sizes of containers for sure 2 gal and 5 gallon.I am not sure if it comes smaller though.You should be able to get a better deal on the 5 gallon unit.perhaps between 350.-400 dollars. It will do the floors walls benches and even a shower pan if need be. :)

Most finished floor mfrs, carpet, vct, wood, engineered etc. will not guarantee their products over a gypsum material. As one tech. service rep said to me gypsum is food for bacteria. We constantly preach against gypsum products in a wet environment. A bathroom floor doesn't sound like a good place for it. I'm curious, how much per SF are you paying for the gypcrete, how much for plastic mesh and how much for the overspray. Can you get the contractor to break these figures down? What kind of warranty are you getting from the gyp installer? BTW the SLCs Todd refers to (and I agree with him) are Portland cement based.

Peter, Ditra, while not the cheapest, is spec'd out for gyp. It is applied with a modified thin set -- no other glues are needed.

Flatfloor, As far as I am aware their is only one radiant heat floor intstaller in south eastern wisconsin and the product they use in Therma-Floor from Maxxon corporation. I suspect that is why Maxxon corp wants a waterproof/anti-fracture membrane installed where ever tile will be installed. I am paying about $2.00 per sq ft completely installed. I am not sure what other choice I have since since my wife and I really want radiant heat in our new house. Any ideas? John, would I use Ditra just in the bathroom where water is present and use the C-cure roll on membrane every where else where H2O is not present? Thanks Peter:confused:

When the Terma-Floor is poured an "expandable metal lathe" is installed in all areas designated to receive ceramic tile. -Peter

If you Go with Ditra,Use it throughout.It is a good product and well worth the investment.Cost will be similar to the other choices.labor will be a bit more but you gain several advantages with the Ditra.Besides being a waterproofing membrane it is an uncoupling membrane.I would give it serious consideration.

Tileguy, John ........ When I build the mud shower do I put Ditra down and then build the preslope on top of the Ditra? Won't it move? Do I snap chalk lines for tile directly onto the Ditra? When you say Ditra throughout do you mean where ever I am tiling right? Do you think I need to lay a waterproof membrane under all of the other floor coverings I will be using? I have engineered wood floor in the great room and dinning room and kitchen. Carpeting in the three bedrooms. And vinyl sheet flooring in the laundry room. I can see the laundry room as as issue since water is present in a big way there. What about the kitchen with dishwasher? I know the engineered wood flooring people are putting down a 1/8" membrane of sorts. It's suppose to take out any imperfections in the floor, but I don't think it is water proof. The wood floors will be floating wood floors. At that point might it be worth rolling on C-Cure Pro-Red 963 in all areas not receiving tile? I have a friend that one said to me "If you can't find time to do it right, when are you going to find time to do it over?" I also want to thank all of you that are responding to my questions. I thank God for you. I hate to think of the possible tragedy I was setting myself up for. Thanks :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: Peter

Ok Peter,i see we are confusing you a little and i understand what its like to be overwhelmed so i'll try to clear some things up for you ok. Your shower is a seperate issue all together so we will handle that later.first, we will deal with all your ceramic tile flooring with the exception if the shower.OK? #1 A gypsum floor is really not acceptible for putting tile on.A membrane is called for to install your tile on the gypcrete due to#1 radiant heat and #2 gypcretes know problems with moisture deteriorating it and causing your bond to fail.This is where the Ditra comes in.It is a plastic type matting with dovetailed recesses in the matt.This gets installed over your gypcrete with Thinset morter and then your tile gets installed over the top of it.This effectively uncouples the Tile installation from the gypcrete and protects the entire installation from moisture deteriorating your bond.Ditra is manufactured by schluter corp. for more infornation on this product go to www.schluter.com.there is also a link at the top of the page. #2 Your Shower.This area we know is going to recieve alot of moisture and not only does it need to be contained, it also needs to be controlled.This is why we use a Preslope/membrane/finish slope with a clamping drainAny moisture that goes through your tile installation and works its way down to the liner is checked.it the rolls towards the drain due to the preslope where it finds its way into the drain by way of weep holes.weep holes are designed into the clamping drain just for this instance.it keeps moisture from just sitting under your application causing mold and mildew and all kind s of other nasty things to ruin your shower.The Prored 963 is a roll on waterproofing membrane or Surface applied membrane.it has a place and can be used for roll in handicap showers etc. where a curb is not used to contain water.Please read more on shower construction in the library.there are several other articles in there you should also read.then come back with any additional questions .we are here to help you and your education,however, you need to help also OK :)

Tileguy, I had previously read all of those articles. I have bought and read John’s book as well as Michael Byrnes book and videos. The gypcrete floor causes the complication with everything I am doing. I do understand the purpose of Schluter Ditra everywhere I am laying tile. I could also use C-Cure ProRed 963. However, you and John think Ditra although it has more labor involved in installing it, is better suited for this project. Wisdom wins again. But the question I was trying to ask with the mud shower is this. The entire bathroom as well as the entire main floor of the house has gypcrete (1.5 inches thick) poured over a ¾ inch plywood subfloor. The anatomy of a normal (if that exists) shower pan would have ¾ inch plywood with mud preslope, 15-lb tar paper over it with metal lathe stapled to the plywood subfloor. Then pour the deck mud over the lathe. The question I have (come on peter get to the point) is what do I put over the gypcrete in mud shower? I could put 15-lb tar paper but would I be better of using C-Cure or Ditra? Remember there are radiant heat tubes running throughout the bathroom and shower area. If I use any of the above what do I attach the metal lathe to? If I staple it I will puncture the C-Cure or Ditra or tar paper and the idea I though in my case is make sure no water ever reaches the gypcrete. I also figured once the CBU’s are up and the final mortar bed for the shower floor is complete I could use C-Cure ProRed on the walls as well as the floors and seat to make extra sure no water ever penetrates and makes it to the gypcrete floor. I am very sorry for being long winded; I just don’t want to screw anything up. The time for asking questions is now, not when I am in the middle of construction. Thanks for your understanding. :bow: Peter

OK ,i am following your concerns(sometimes i am a bit slow,but i can still outrun John i bet ;) ) I would use the Ditra up to the point where your shower curb will be. Run your preslope in the shower area using sandmix.you do not need to attach the lathe to the subfloor.once you have done your preslope,the gypcrete will be mute because you will put a standard PVC liner over this.followed by your CBU then your final slope to the drain.The prored can be used for any bench area etc.you are going to build a curb,correct?You will need to have your curb 2x4's in before doing your pan.I realize you dont want to nail through the gypcrete so i would Attach your 2x4's for the curb to your framing with some construction adhesive on the sides and underneath alng with nails into your wall framing(or screws if this is easier).Then follow Johns method for doing the pan/curb etc.

Tileguy, Yes I am planning on having a curb. I figure I would nail down some 2x4's before the gypcrete is pored and nail them down to the plywood subfloor. Just like all of the interior walls will be nailed to the plywood subfloor prior to the gypecrete pour. Only trick is that everything (interior and exterior walls) will have to have and extra plate (2x4) to account for the 1.5 inches of gypecrete. Do I have to worry abount the moisture in the preslope that will come in direct contact with the gypcrete ? -Peter :bang:

Don't pour the gyp in the shower. :)

Late to the party- sorry. Prolly not much too add, either, but here goes... Peter, I've got radiant heat in my house. (works great- you're going to love it!!!!) If you are absolutely stuck with gypcrete, just don't have them pour anywhere you are going to put tile. Your installers can block off the bathrooms so you can use mud instead. (hindsite: 20/20) We went with regular concrete instead of gypcrete for our thermal mass, after much reseach and discussion.

Peter, I'm now of the impression that the gypcrete has not yet been poured? So just build the curb (2x4s) for the shower and exclude the gypcrete from the inside of the shower. Who says you have to put it there? There are no heating tubes in there, are there? In the off chance there are already tubes in the shower floor, I go along with Todd. Make a pre-slope over the gypcrete and install the shower pan liner over it. You can throw down a little thin set onto the gypcrete just to stick the pre-slope to it. This is one of the few times I would suggest using a metal reiforcing mesh (not lath) in the final shower floor as per Michael Byrne. :)

Well now, I thought the gypcrete had been poured already.Youve been holding out on me ;) Follow the instructions above.Boy i got out of a bunch of typing this time :D

John, Your are correct that the gypcrete has yet to be poured. I am trying to get all of my ducks in a row ahead of time. I just finished speaking with the mason who will be doing the brick work and some of the concrete work for my house. He said once the rough carpenter is done roughing the master bathroom he will learn me how to float an (1.5 inch) portland cement base over the radiant heat tubes for the shower. On top of which I will build my preslope. Presto changeo no more gypecrete in the shower. :yipee: How long will the concrete in the shower have to sit before I start building the preslope? I suspect it has to dry out like the gypcrete. Will the heat from the heating tubes have a detrimental affect on any of the materials being used for building the shower base? Does any of the wood making up the shower walls, curb, or sills have to be made from pressure treaded lumber since the concrete is kinda wet? Thanks :) Happy Easter -Peter

Peter,If you have a mason there to help you,have him put a 1/4" to the foot slope to that 1.5" mud bed and your preslope is done.this save s you a step.:)Now you can just build your final slope just a bit thicker if you want to but it is not a requirement. Funy thing about concrete,it goes in wet but dries faster than my backyard after a rainstorm.Regular lumber for all walls,pressure treated for the curb lumber. After doing that initial concrete work,wait overnight.Then you can put in your pan and do your leak test overnight.Drain the water and do your final slope to the drain.Have you decided wether you will notch all your studs for the pan or shim all the studs??

My .02, if you plan to keep this house for any length of time eliminate the gyp and do what Cami did.

With the flooring under the whirlpool bath also being gypcrete do I also install Ditra or some other type of waterproof membrane under it as well? Thanks Peter

Peter, You should end up with cement mortar instead of gyp in the bathroom if you intend to tile the floor. Cement mortar is indeed the way to go since you have the option. I don't think the heat tubs will hurt anything in the shower, but I have no experience with it. Let's just try to get away from the gypcrete anywhere tile is going to go.

Well here it is. A scaned in image of my our master bathroom. I need some advise though. 1) The shower seat is actually part of of the tub deck. I betting that I probably don't want to do this. 2) There is a personal hand spay on the wall at the bottom of the image. That wall just happens to be an outside wall so I am betting that that is a no no as well. The total height of the wall + glass for the wall that is next to the toilet is 48" of wall and 48" of glass = 8ft Right next to this half wall is and 8ft glass panel. Next is the 2ft x 8ft glass door. Next is the glass panel that sits behind the shower seat. Any and all criticism it welcome. You guys and gals are the pros and have seen and done just about everything. :bow: :bow: Thanks a million -Peter

I don't catch the significance of the hand spray being on an outside wall. Would you worry about it freezing? It would be much better to build a seat inside the shower. I would not do it as planned. :)

John, Yes I am worried about it freezing, even though I will have R-19 insulation in the wall. Remember it gets cold up here in Wisconsin. I will change my plans and build a masonry shower bench just like in the liberry. Is it advisable to build a wall behind the bench that extends up higher than the tub deck? What should the final height of the bench be approximately? I'm scared. Thanks Peter

Peter, Allow me to dispel your fear. :D The bench should finish out at about chair height which is usually between 16 and 18 inches. That means about 19 to 20 inches above the liner/pre-slope. This is only a rule of thumb. It could be a bit lower. I think your tub deck will be higher. You could move the seat over away from the tub a bit and simply build it against the wall in the shape of a half-hexagon or half-circle. I placed a picture of one at the end of our article on benches. Even though it gets cold, it's not hard to prevent pipes from freezing in outside walls. The piping must be run close to the inside of the wall, and the insulation run behind the piping toward the outside of the wall. In order for the pipes to freeze, the entire interior of the house would have to freeze. That said, however, if you moved your seat over, you could plumb the hand shower on the same wall as the main shower.

Peter, I like having a wall behind the seat that's a few inches higher. It's easier to make water tight so moisture doesn't get back into the tub deck.:)

Which one for the shower and tub surrond Durarock or Hardibacker 500? Thanks Peter D

Durock!!!! :)

Todd, Whats so great about Durarock over Hradbacker500? Just curious. Second question, My bride and I have picked and American Olean porcelain 12x12 floor tile with a matching 8x12 ceramic wall tile. The wall tile will be used in the shower stall as well as around the tub. Any draw backs in having a ceramic tile in the shower and around the tub vs porcelain? Thanks Peter D:confused:

Question, When installing the 2x10 blocking in the shower does the blocking really have to be a 2x10? Here why I ask. The exterior walls of our house are 2x4. I am having 2.5 inches of polyurethane insulation sprayed into the stud cavities. That leaves only 1 inch available for the 2x10 blocking. If I choose to cut a 1/4-inch out of the stud for the pan liner vs. shimming the studs I only have 3/4 of an inch available. So with a 2x10 actually be 1.5 inches thick (i think) the 2x10 is 0.75 inches to thick. What is the best solution for this? Thanks -Peter D

Peter, the insulation won't mash in 3/4 " behind the blocks?:)

The 2x lumber is just easier to attach between the studs, Peter. I'd say you could easily get by with 3/4 ply as far as the function of that blocking is concerned. It's just difficult to nail in there unless you have access to a pneumatic nail gun. But can't you put that 2x blocking in there before they spray the insulation? Not a felony offense in most states to encroach on the insulation where necessary, so long as you don't do too much of it. Did they really promise you R19 in a 2x4 wall with that foam? With a straight face? If so, you'll still have a better than average insulation behind the 2x10 blocking. Only other thing I saw in this thread that I would comment on is the use of treated wood for the shower curb structure. I would recommend against that unless you have access to KDAT (Kiln Dried After Treatment) treated wood. The regular stuff starts out ten to fifteen percent oversized when wet (and it will be wet when you get it) and shrinks a whole bunch when it dries. Best to use kiln dried framing lumber; it ain't s'pose get wet in there anyway. My opinion; worth price charged.

I agree with CX on everything he said this time. :D I wouldn't bother with treated at all. Regular kiln-dried framing lumber, pine or fir, is just fine. We all have our views on moisture barriers, insulation, house wraps, etc., and I know there are regional considerations involved, and I've been shot out of the saddle on this subject more than once, but I still feel compelled to run my mouth. :D I think foam stinks. It doesn't breathe!

John, I agree that foam does not breathe. That is why a HEPA Filtration, Fresh Air Ventilation and Energy Recovery system is being installed. In both bathrooms I will have your normal run of the mill bathtroom fan. There also will be air intakes for the Energy Recovery system (ERV) venting each of the bathrooms plus other rooms in the house. The ERV can run continously or be hooked into a dehumidistat. The purpose of the foam along with external R board is to give me an R-21 wall. When using the foam the external house wrap is no longer needed to prevent air infiltration, the foam takes care of it. The foam is also mold resistant. -Peter D

Cant believe ive missed this thread for so long. Durock vs Hardibacker Durock in my opinion is better in water area's thn Hardibacker.It also tapes better(use rough side out).I really am not fond of Hardibacker(i wish i were,its much lighter than Durock). When all is said and done,Durock has been around a long time.I Know It Works!!! I can't as yet say the same for Hardibacker. While Porcelain is an excellant choise,I see absolutly no problem going with ceramic. Now i know i am probobly a day late and a dollar short on this thread Peter,but,better late than never ;)

Gee guys I figured I pissed you'all off ;) and you were just ignoring me. Glad to see that is not the case. -Peter D;

Hi Peter, Everybody around here knows how much I hate to start an argument on anything, let alone something as insignificant as insulating and wrapping external walls. :D However . . . , While house wraps like Tyvek slow down wind penetration from the outside, they allow vapor transmission from the inside. Foams don't allow anything to pass through either way. And so for the sake of one or two more "Rs" you forego the very quality that will do the most to prevent or alleviate the mold you are concerned about. Exterior walls have to breathe through the skin if you want to remain healthy and keep your house in good condition. God, I love an argument. I do. I do. :D

C'mon, JB, if you wanna argue stuff like that, we gotta go over to the Box or the Hangout. :rolleyes: Remember, I know the guy who runs this site. It would hurt my heart to hafta turn your wretched ass in, but a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do, eh? :shades:

:p

Well the basement walla are poured and in about 2 weeks the rough capenter will start framing thee house. Mean while I just received the engineering detail for the floor of the house. The floor joists are 11 7/8" TGI/Pro-130. The maximum length spanned is 14'4". The joists are 16" OC. The Floor loading is 40psf Live load 25psf Dead load Maximum Joist Deflection is L/480 Live load L/240 Total Load The entire floor will be poured with Maxxon's Therma-Floor which is a gypsum underlayment for radiant floor heat. It is rated at 15lbs/sq ft. So my questions to the pros is can I put down porcelan tiles on the floors as well as a custom 60"x39" shower with the current specifications. Thanks Peter D

Adding the shower will be OK. Are you changing your plans, or did the architect/builder know about the tile floors? I'd be happier with an I- joist capable of L/480 under the combined live and dead loads. Yours are a little light. Stick around for comments on the gypsum underlayment. I don't think you want that, either. Bob

No the plans have not changed much in the last 6 months. The poured gypsum underlayment is not new either. There really aren't many alturnitives around here. I plan on using Schluter Ditra with Kerdi band to water proof the bathroom floors. I would like to use Schluter Kerdi Drain system in the custom shower if I can get the city inspectors to go for it. All other areas with tile will have Schluter Ditra installed. How does one increase the dead load capacity of the joists? I used the "The Amazing Deflect-O-Lator" using the following criteria: 1) SYP or Douglas Fur in good condition 2) Joist Height 12" 3) Joist Width 1.5" 4) Joist Spacing 16" OC 5) Joist Length 15' And received an answer of L/610. The engineered drawings I received tell me L/480 live load and L/240 total load. So I am now sure what to do now. Thanks Peter D :confused:

The deflectolator is for standard dimension lumber only. It doesn't work for I-joists and trusses, you have to contact the manufacturer for that information. The easiest way to increase the capacity of the I-joists is to install them closer together. I don't know who made your I-joists, but information I have indicates a maximum span of 18-1" for I-joists made with 1-1/2" top and bottom flanges, and 3/8" webs. In that case, your spans of 14-4" are well under the maximum, so you should be OK. What threw me was the way you divided out the live and total loads. With the gypcrete as the majority of the dead load, you will see deflection in the joists. When the gypcrete cures, that deflection is locked in, so only "real" live loads will cause the joists to deflect further. It is the further deflection that bothers an tile installation. Again, your joists should be OK. Sorry for any confusion. Bob

Bob, So are you saying the even though the JB Deflecto-Meter says you need a minimum of L/360 for tile my total load of L/240 doesn't really matter, it the live load of L/480 that matters? Would it hurt to have the floor stiffed up to a total load of L/360 by changing the 16" OC to maybe 14" OC or 12" OC. Obviously I will have to contact the engineering firm to do the calculation. Need some peace of mind. Thanks Peter D:bow:

Peter, I think we might be getting confused, and you've been around here long enough to know the chaos that can cause. :D L/360 simply means that the floor can't deflect more that 1/360th of it's span under a concentrated (live) load of 300 lbs. It really has nothing at all to do with dead load, which includes the weight of the substrate and ultimately the tile. So L/360 is not the weight or concentration of the load. You install tile and substrate on ANY wood flooring system and it's going to subside a little (deflect). But it's going to stay in that position; it won't spring back up because of the dead load on it. But now you send this 300 lb. person waltzing across the floor. The floor cannot deflect more than 1/360 of its overall span. Get it? It's nothing to do with dead load and everything to do with keeping yourself in fighting trim. :D

John, So what you are saying (not meaning to put words in your mouth and to make sure I understand as well as my builder and my 3 cats and my wife) is the live load is what I sould be concerned with. The maximum joist deflection for live load is L/480 so I should be oK. Right? :confused: Thanks -Peter D

Right. Once again, sorry for the confusion!

Question on the order of things. With the master bathroom work still a some unknown time in the future (roof trusses are going up this week) I have a question on the whirlpool tub surround. Tub is oval in shape in case it matters and weighs about 230 lbs) Is the tub put in first and then the wood framing done or in the framing done first and then tub dropped in? I would think the latter. If latter is the case, then I need to get the tub decking (Durarock with Schluter Kerdi over the the Durarock ) on prior to the tub be dropped in. Right? :confused: Thanks Peter D

You are correct: frame, sheathe, CBU, tub. Ideally, you would tile the deck then set the tub.

To be on the safe side I'd get rid of the cats and or wife. :D

Well cat't get rid of the wife, I'll lose half of everything and the cats are like my kids. Hmmmmm which one to keep. I guess I'll keep both unless I get great offer for both. :D Assuming I go with Schluter Kerdi for the tub deck and around the tub walls, creates two questions for me. 1) Do I use Durarock for the tub deck or can drywall be used? 2) From other threads I have read I can use drywall for the tub walls with Kerdi over it. Question, do I still need a vapor barrier behind the drywall for outside walls? Thanks -Peter D

Bop to the top. -Peter D

Hi Peter, Use the durarock on the deck, not greenboard. The Kerdi is a membrane so I wouldn't have a second barrier in the wall.:)

The carpenter is going to be roughing in the tub surround next week. I will be printing out the Kohler rough in sheet for him so he has all of the dimensions. The question I have is how much space :confused: is needed between the tub lip and the top of the tub deck wall being build to to accommodate the thin set, durarock, kerdi mat, thin set then tile. I assume that the tile on the top of the deck must be installed prior to the tub being installed. Thanks Peter D

Hi again Peter. With such a heavy tub, I think it's best to frame 3 sides of the deck, slide the tub in and then build the rest of the deck. Tile the deck with the tub in place. The 1/2 inch durarock, thinset and 3/8 tile will take up close to 1 inch.

Davy, I am redoing the order, lets see if I got it straight now. 1) Thin set 2) Set the Durarock and screw it down to the tub deck 3) Apply Kerdi mat to deck 4) Slide in tub 5) Build rest of deck 6) Apply rest of Kerdi mat 7) Ready for tile I am assuming that the walls of the tub deck are all made of 2x4's Is there any plywood used in building the tub deck? When applying the tile to the tub deck, does the tile go under the lip of the tub at all? Thanks Peter D

Peter, between 4 and 5 you might want a coffee or beer break. ;) Yes you need to slide the tile under the tub lip, doesn't matter how much 1/2 to 1 inch is good.

Peter, Depending on expanse of the deck you might need plywood. If it's merely a stud wall, the top plate is enough.

I just want to thank everyone for reading and responding to my thread. As the time nears I get more and more unsure. But I promise I will post pictures as things progress. The capenter will be roughing in the shower and whirlpool tub area next week. I am just am getting a bit paranoid. Thanks everyone. -Peter D

If plywood is needed how thick should it be? And we are talking plywood right not OSB right? Thanks -Peter D

3/4" plywood, Pete!

Well the plumber is on stream with what I am doing regarding a Schluter shower. I have given him the specs on the Kerdi drain and Kerdi membrane. He will not be installing the drain for the shower just upto the trap for the shower. Now the Schluter Drain question. In a non-Schluter shower floor, the approach is the installation of a preslope and 0.25 inch per foot pitch from drain to the walls. Then the PVC liner, then the final deck mud. What does Schluter use for a preslope? I have watched the video but I do not recall them mentioning anything about the pitch from the wall to the drain. Thanks Peter D

Hi Peter, With the Kerdi-drain you don't use a pre-slope. There is only one mortar bed, and the Kerdi matting is applied to its surface. The video was produced with the pro tile setter in mind. They do, however, depict the perimeter screed being higher than the drain flange. In the video, Bryant is working in a mock-up with no plumbing underneath it. That's how he is able to set the drain so easily. In real life the drain will probably be connected beforehand and set at a certain height (minimum of 1- 1/4 in. above the subfloor). It would then be necessary to build the perimeter screeds at a height that would afford a proper pitch to the drain. :)

John, When setting up the perimeter screed for the Kerdi drain do I use 1/4 inch per foot slope for the mortar bed or something else? What is the John Bridge secret recipe for the motar bed? You mentioned that the drain is set 1.25 inches above the subfloor. Therefore, the thickness of the motar bed is a minimum of 1.25 inches at the drain and gets thicker as I move toward the walls. Correct? I am sure I will have more questions to come. Thanks Peter D :bow:

Peter, I'm sure you will have more questions, too. :D But I don't mind, and I'm kidding. There are no secrets here. The shower floor should be a minimum of 1- 1/4 in. thick at the drain no matter whose system you use (unless you are working over a concrete slab). The 1/4 in. per foot rule applies, also, although really experienced setters can get away with a bit less, but not much. Stick with a quarter. The mud is plain old deck mud. I like mine about 5 concrete sand to 1 portland. Easy on the water. ;)

John, Pleaseeeee don't kill me. Currently there is OSB on the floor where the shower is going to be. Next the radiant heat tubes will be layed out. I am going to mix up and pour concrete where my shower and tub are going to instead of the gypcrete, in case either one leaks. My HVAC contractor like the idea of the concrete under the shower and the tub as well. You state in your previous post that the shower floor should be 1 1/4 inches unless its over concrete slab. Ok, its kinda over a concrete slab. How does that change your directions in your previous post? The rest of the house will be gypcrete (I know you don't like that) Where ever there will be tile Ditra with Kerdi band will be installed. Thank you Sir John. :bow: -Peter D

Bop to top

Well, you could skip pouring your "concrete" in the shower and just do the Kerdi-drain and shower floor instead. You would reinforce the mortar with metal lath or chicken war. :D Your shower floor would come up to about the same height as your bath floor. I think the Ditra over the lightweight concrete will work. I hate the stuff because every time I've seen it it's been cracked up. No one wants to use re-inforcing for one thing, and the material itself is not strong at all. I can build you one heck of a structural mud floor in the same height using cement mortar. :)

Any ideas on how well the "Deck Mud" will transmit the heat from the radiant heat tubes since it contains so much sand? I would think it would almost become an insulator. John if you don't mind I am going to do a mini recap. Plan to set the Schluter drain 1.25 inches above the OSB subfloor. Using "Deck Mud" (very similar to doing a preslope on a non Schluter shower) set slope from drain to wall at 0.25 inch per foot. Once the "preslope" is cured set the Schluter drain. About right? :confused: -Peter D

Peter, I really don't know from floor heat. I build showers, buddy. ;) Let's get moving, shall we? :D

Might have a problem. Stopped by the constuction sight and the whirlpool surround has been built and topped with 1/2" OSB for the tub deck. If memory serves OSB is a no no for the tub deck. Capenter say thats what he always uses. If I rip out the 1/2" OSB and put 1/2" plywood will that take care of it? Not sure how much space the carpenter has left me from the top of the deck to the bottom of the tub. Will have to take some measurements. Thanks Peter D

Take measurements. If we use backer board over the OSB, I don't see a problem as long as the deck is sturdy. :)

After measuring the deck and looking at the rough in sheet for the tub there exists a 1 inch gap between the top of the deck and the bottom lip of the tub for tile and stuff. So I figure the layer on top of the tub deck will consist of thinset + 1/2" durarock + Kerdi + thinset + tile Does that fill up the 1 inch gap? Thanks Peter D

Peter, What's the thickness of the tiles. The thin set won't take up a lot of space, maybe a sixteenth. Kerdi takes maybe a sixteenth.

I believe the tile is a smige more than 1/4" thick. Don't have a exact sample floor tile from the bath room. -Peter D

Bop to top for John. -Peter D

Well, if you don't have the exact thickness, we can't come up with an exact projection. :) I'm thinking you're going to be close, though. ;)

I will contact "Lakeside Tile and Stone" and get an exact measurement for thickness. -Peter D

Ok, I now have the exact thickness of the tile that will be going on the tub deck. It is 0.25000000000 inches. So just to rehash my hash: There exists a 1 inch gap between the top of the deck and the bottom lip of the tub for tile and stuff. So I figure the layer on top of the tub deck will consist of thinset + 1/2" durarock + Kerdi + thinset + tile Does that fill up the 1 inch gap? Or did I just run out of room! :eek:

Well, if we round off that tile measurement to a quarter inch :rolleyes:, you aughta be real close, there, Peter. Might hafta caulk a little under the tub rim, or make some of that thinset a little thicker, but you aughta be OK, I think.

Whooooohoooooo! First thing that go right for me in a loooooooong time. Thanks CX. :) -Peter D

Does anyone know of any special requirements when placing a Kohler K-713 Villager (cast iron) tub on concrete? I have checked Kohler's rough in data and there does not appear to be any. The reason I ask is will be pouring some concrete over some of my radiant heat tubes in my guest bathroom and the plumber insists I frame in with pressure treated lumber (2x4) under the tub. He said you don't want the cast iron tub resting directly on the concrete. Do I want to use pressure treated lumber? The stuff I have seems to twist as it drys out. Help!!! :eek: -Peter D

I'm not sure just what your plumber has in mind, Peter, but PT wood is one of the last things I'd want to use as a base for my tub, for the very reason you mentioned: It's dimensionally unstable to the max. I build over concrete slabs most of the time and I've never made any special provisions for setting a cast iron tub. Occasionally a shim here or there if the slab isn't flat enough, but usually nothing but a large dollop of gravity over the concrete constitutes the entire installation package. :) Maybe some of the other guys know what your plumber is talking about and will set us straight, and I'll take a lesson any ol' day, but................. My opinion; worth price charged.

I quit trying to figure out plumbers years ago. ;) I would not use treated lumber for anything inside the house.

Something don't sound right. Peter, is this a regular ol tub or a drop- in type that needs a deck built around it? Maybe the plumber means a wood deck under the lip. Even if it needs a deck the tub still needs to rest on the concrete floor.

Davy, It's just a Kohler Villager K-713 tub that rests on the floor. No deck necessary from the install instructions. Plumber says he never places cast iron porclean tubs directly on concrete. So my builder framed a 2x4 rectangle on the floor for the tub to sit on. The voids in the rectangle and well as the surounding floor will have 1.5 inches of concrete poured over the radiant heat tubes. I have attached a jpg for everyone to see what the tub looks like. Nothing fancy, just a basic tub. Thanks -Peter D

Peter, I don't understand the plumber either. I'd have to ask him why a wood deck under the tub is better than solid concrete.

Noise? Rust? Cold? Bad knees, and can't get down that low? :D

Tub no leak, tub no rust. Hot water warm up tub. Sound no problema. :D I would set it on the slab in front and run a 2x4 ledger along the back wall studs (regular old kiln dried -- not treated). That's how it's been done since the advent of inside plumbing. Tell the guy not to reinvent the wheel. ;)

I spoke to the general contractor about my unhappiness with having pressure treated lumber under the tub and why was the wooden frame necessary. I told him that I posted a question regarding it on the TYW forums and no one knows really why the tub needs to be mounted on wood, and pressure treated is a big no no. I was told by the GC that is the way the plumber wants it and if I choose to remove the pressure treated lumber and mount the tub onto the floor directly that the plumber no longer will warranty the installation of the tub. So it looks like I am on my own placing the 2x4 ledger. Below is a diagram of the tub. The tub height is 14”. Would I set the top of the ledger exactly 14” or something a slight bit less? The reason I am asking is I won't be around when the plumber installs the tub and I suspect that the tub may have to be shimmed once in place and I don't want the ledger interfering with the plumber. Thanks Peter D

You have to account for the thickness of the top deck, usually 3/8 to a half in cast iron tubs. I always have the top on hand when I install the ledger. Once again, I've never been able to talk sense to plumbers. Why don't you just go with the recommended installation instructions that accompany the tub? The manufacturer is providing the warranty anyway, not the plumber. The plumber can only warrant the quality of his workmanship just like the rest of us. This thing is getting way out of hand here. :)

Well the time for tiling is getting closer. Some where between 2 to 4 weeks depending some of the subcontractors getting there stuff done. I tore off the 1/2" OSB tub deck so the radiant heat contractor can get underneath it to lay radiant heat tubes. So instead of laying OSB down again I thought it might be better to install BCX plywood. My question is it better to lay 3/4" BCX plywood and 1/4" Durock or 1/2" BCX plywood and 1/2" Durock? Thanks Peter D

Hearing nothing, I will use 1/2" BSX plywood along with 1/2" Durock for the whirlpool deck. -Peter D

Peter, 3/4 in. ply is probably as close to a standard as you can come for that sort of thing. 1/2 in. really doesn't provide that much substance. Hate to throw another fly in the ointment, but might as well get it right first time around. :)

John, If I go with 3/4" ply can I use the 1/4" Durock on top of the ply? Going to 1/2" Durock might cause some height problems. Your thoughts? -Peter

Well I just ordered a Felker FTS-150 ($499) and a TM-7 ($59) blade at Construction Complete. Oh my :eek: what have I got myself into. :D Next up some Ditra and some Kerdi. -Peter D. P.S. John 1/4" Durock on top of 3/4" BCX plywood ok?

Well, reccomendation would be ACX.if you already bought it Just draw over the B ;) If you havent purchased yet, get the AC and let it acclimate a day or 2 or 3 if you have time.:)

1/4" backerboard over the 3/4" plywood deck is good!

Will the blade that comes with the Felker FTS-150 and the 10" TM-7 blade be able to handle the porcelain, ceramic and granite tiles I will be needing to cut or should I be looking at some other blade all together. When I spoke with the folks at ConstrutionComplete they said the MK225 hot dog blade was the same as the TM-7 just 4 bucks cheaper. -Peter

You might want to invest in either one of those blades. It will certainly make the work go easier and faster. :)

What do I use to fasten the 3/4" plywood to the 2"x4" tub frame the carpenter built? I know that I use cement board screws too fasten the Durock to the plywood. Thanks Peter D

Deck screws, CBU screws, ring-shanked nails. And construction adhesive. Just like a subfloor.

I will be putting aluminum heat transfer plates under the tub deck and screwing into the tub frame so the tiles on the deck are warm. I only plan on screwing fastening one side of the plate because of expansion and contraction. Since I will be screwing through a flange on the plate, and the flange is sandwiched between the wooden tub frame and the 3/4" tubdeck will the heating and cooling of the plate cause any problems for the tiles installed on the tub deck? -Peter D

I wouldn't think so. The backerboard should act as a decoupling membrane. Use CBU screws that are just long enough to penetrate the plywood, but not go too deep into the framing. To be safe, couldn't you attach the plates away from the framing?

Bob, Don't know. I won't have any real good idea how much room is under the tub for the plates and all until I start laying out the cut out for the hole in the tub deck. Then I plan on haveing the plumber stop by before I cut just to make sure he does not have any problems with the layout. -Peter D Thanks Bob :bow:

Whooo Hoooo!! Ordered the Felker FTS-150 on Tuesday and it's being delivered today. -Peter D

It's OK, Peter! Don't hold back, let it all out! :D

Careful, you might get fined for excessive celebration. ;)

:dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: -Peter D

:D

That'll be $50 mister! :bonk:

Wow, I haven't layed an inch of tile an I have already screwed up. My radiant HVAC contractor has installed PEX tubes in the shower floor area, problem is since I am doing a Schluter shower I need to install 4 mil poly and metal lath. :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: I guess I will have to be carefull and full up PEX tubes and install the poly and lath then restaple the PEX tubes down. Question: Water in the tubes runs about 160 to 180 degrees. With that affect the poly at all? Thanks Peter :eek:

Worst case scenario, Can Kerdi be applied to gypcrete? -Peter

The world of poly has a huge circumference. Best contact the manufacturer (and I don't mean the distributor). It's most very likely that without UV's working on it, you'll be fine as that material goes. I know very little about Pex and all that, I know a little about PE's tho'.

I had my psyc session with David Taylor this morning and I am doing better now. :D I need to get some 2 1/2 metal lath from the local masonry store and some 6 mil poly which I already own, unstaple the PEX tubes and staple the poly and lath down. Restaple the tubes and I am ready fo some deck mud. Well kinda ready. Thanks David for coming to my rescue. !:bow: Safe travels -Peter

Peter, That's a good plan. Use deck mud in the shower instead of gypsum. Add a bit a thickness to allow for the tubes. Make the floor at least an inch and a half thick at the drain, and you'll be fine. :)

I have attached a cross section drawing of our radiant shower now under contruction (slowly I might add) Is what I am proposing sound? Do I have any errors in my thinking? The OSB, 6 mil poly, and 2.5 metal lath are now in place. If their are any concerns or comments I would love to hear them. Thanks -Peter

Well, Peter, that looks like a good plan. I think it's overkill, but it certainly will work. Since you have the metal lath under the tubes, I don't know that the 2x2 mesh is going to add a lot, but again, it certainly will work. The varying distances to the walls will change the pitch of the floor accordingly, which is how it should be. At all cost, the perimeter of the floor should be level all the way around. :)

John, Regarding pitch. I took the length of the shower and divided it by 2 67"/2 = 33.5" Divided by 12 to convert to feet 33.5"/12 = 2.79' Multiply by 0.25 per foor for slope 0.25" * 2.79' = 0.69 So from the center of the drain to the back wall the deck must rise 0.69 inches. It also must rise 0.69 inches to the side wall as well. The difference between the back wall and the side wall is the steeper pitch to the side wall. Do I have my theory correct John? Thanks Peter

Your calculation is correct if your drain is in the center of the floor, Peter. yours isn't. Measure from the drain to whatever is the fartherst point in the shower from that drain and calculate your 1/4 inch per foot based on that measurement. You can prolly round off to 3/4 inch and just put some rips of wood, 3/4 inch taller than the measurement of your drain flange above your floor, around the perimeter as screed guides to get your slope established. Then you can take out the strips and finish your slope. Yes, the short sides will be steeper of grade.

Do you get what CX is saying, Peter? He's saying lose all that old college boy stuff and get out your measuring stick. :D Seriously, as long as there is "fall" to the drain from every point, and the perimeter of the shower floor is level all the way around, you'll be okay. Figure your pitch to the wall that is furthest away and then level the perimeter. :)

College boy, who you callen college boy. Them be fightn words. ;) Cats out of the bag, I be a college boy. I'm sorry. I just don't want to do it wrong and get called down to the principles office (aka Mr John Bridge.) -Peter :D

Don't be askeered of ol' JB, Peter, he's just a big pussycat in real life. :) It's the Tile Ranger you don't want no visit from! :eek:

What material is the skirt of the tub deck made of? Durock? -Peter

College Boy, :) I usually make the sides of the tub deck out of plain old sheetrock. Nobody's going to walk on it, and it doesn't get wet. Under those condidtions sheetrock is actually a very stable substrate for tiles. I mount them with thin set directly to the rock. ;)

Well the 2100 sq ft of gypcrete was poured yesterday. Now it just a matter if drying out the house. Problem is it's to cold out to open the windows to help get the moisture out. So I am using 3 dehumidifiers. -Peter

peterd, My pour was 2 weeks ago and my windows are still open. It stayed warm enough with the windows cracked due to having a separate system in the basement floor that runs on off peak electric. The basement was in the 70's since Christmas Eve, so the floor above it stayed at least 50 all the time. I'm also running a gas fireplace on the main level. They finally got my gas boiler going for the 1st and 2nd floors yesterday. Now it's drying fast. Jerry

Jerry, When you say your windows are still open, how open is open? All the way, half way, 2 fingers? Thanks Peter

The windows have been cracked open about 1/8" - 1/4". Tonight when I got home I closed all of the windows for the first time since the pour. After the boiler ran for 24 hours, everything seemed pretty dry. Since then, I barely cracked a few windows to let any moisture outta here.

Why are y'all closin' y'all's windows, got holes in the bug screens or somethin'? :D

Jerry, I suspect up in Minnesota where you are building it gets very cold. No problem with all of the cold air coming in through the windows and possibly freezing parts of the slab or is the boiler able to keep up? All of my casement windows have swelled as well. I guess the trade that stains all of the wood will be wanting them very dry. -Peter CX, :D

cx, we're trying to keep the snow birds from roosting in the rafters. Gotta keep the windows closed. peterd, I've been going around 2 or 3 times a day and sopping up any condensation on the windows. One day it was too cold - the moisture was frosted up. Now that the floor is heated, it's dried out quite a lot and I don't see much moisture. I cracked most of the windows last night, with about 40 mph winds and -12 air temp. The house still felt warm, so they must have put in a good boiler.

Jerry, Right now I couldn't close my windows if I wanted to. So much moisture as run down the open windows that I have mini ice dams which prevent me from closing the windows. Humidity has dropped from about 92% to 70% in the house. I have set the temp for the house to 80 degrees to assist the drying of the slab. My brother-inlaw who is a mason stopped by and was totaly blown away my the gypcrete installation. He couldn't believe that it is just poured in with very little tooling. All of the windows will need to be sanded down prior to them being stained and sealed but that a couple of months away and they should be dry by then. I hope. -Peter

I've been biting my tongue :x: thru this whole thing but I have to ask Why didn't you guys consider a Portland based SLC or at least a concrete mix designed for radiant. The SLC would have been cured and dry and ready for tile in 48 hours. I finally had to post this for the benefit of any lurkers following this.:x:

Hi Peter Glad to hear you made it through the big pour. We also had quite a bit of condensation and water on the window ledges. I started staining the windows today and did not have to sand too much.

It's been about 2.5 weeks since mine was poured. I have all of the windows closed and latched now. Things seem pretty dry, windows don't seem to be any worse for the wear either. The main reason I had gypcrete poured, other than not knowing any better, my general contractor arranged it. Probably not a good reason to go with gypcrete, but I didn't know there were better choices. All in all, I think it's going to work out fine. I'm really enjoying the heated floor, no matter what the mass is composed of.

One of the reasons I did gypcrete is thats all I could find around Milwaukee. I seems if you are doing radiant you use gypcrete. I called several HVAC contractors and asked what they use for the floor and that what they use. If their are installers of other products in Milwaukee they sure are hiding pretty good. My brother-in-law (Jake) who is a brick and concrete mason was very impressed with the pour. He was quite surprised at the quality of the floor and finish. He was amazed it was all done in 45 minutes and ready to walk on in 1.5 hours. I am not sure a concrete mix designed for radiant would have had any less water in it. It sure would have required more time to pour and much more labor and the floor would have to be finished by a set of masons. -Peter

It appears that I might have a problem. The drywallers sprayed a latex primer coat with texture on the virgin sheet rock around the house. Problem is that got as much primer on the floors as they did on the walls. The contractor knew where I was going to tile but did nothing to cover the floors, said it was my problem. The floor (to refresh your memories) is gypcrete since we are doing radiant heat. So I went to HD and rented a walk behind square sander the kind for refinishing floor with the lowest grit sandpaper I could get, 36. I sanded the gypcrete bit there is still primer in some areas to be tiled where it will not come off (pantry, closets) and a 24" band all the way around the rooms to be tiled (sun room, kitchen and both bathrooms) The plan is to use Ditra on all the floor areas to be tiled. I was given a 5 gallon pail of sealer that needs to be applied prior to tiliing from the company that poured the gypcrete. So do I need to remove all of the primer that is on the floor or just the loose stuff? Thanks Peter D

Hi Peter, you might try a 4 inch razor blade scraper, HD has them in the paint dept. Get extra blades. After the scraper and sander I'd sweep and mop it clean.

Hi Peter, I think you ought to call Schluter tomorrow morning and get it straight from the horse's mouth. It could be that you can go over the paint if it's down in the gypcrete where a razor can't reach it. Seems to me the crete might be craggy enough to allow the thin set to form a bond. Give them a call. 800-472-4588. Ask for someone in the tech area. The folks I know will be down at Coverings, but they'll have people there to help.

Heh Peter..not to worry.. We had the same problem and did not scrape it up. We layed about 2,000 sq. ft. of marble this week right over the overspray and have had not problems with adhesion. As I have offered before we are nearby so come on over and see it before you go to all of the work of trying to scrape it up. The end of this project is near!!! Tom

Tom, If you would be so kind to resend me your contact info I can't seem to find it. Is there a time better than others to stop by. Which thinset did you apply under your Ditra? -Peter

We used bersabond (latex fortified). Give us a call when you want to come over. We are there most of the time. You know the area code...the number is 650-8255. Address is 431 W. Main St. It really looks pretty cool so would be happy to show it off! Tom

Pichurs, dammit pichurs! :D

I will make a trip out to the construction site tomorrow to get some pictures. I never thought of it. Thanks Peter

What follows is a series of pichurs of the overspray that I was unable to get off with a walk behind floor sander. Question is do I need to get it off before I lay Ditra? Will I have bonding issues? First pichur is of get bathroom. Thanks Peter

Kitchen pantry

Sunroom

Master bathroom

Mudroom

Thats beyond overspray Peter. Obviously no attempt was made at shielding(which is common practice for quality painters)with cardboard etc.They would never get away with this with any general contractor in my area. Try a Bonding test.flat trowel(skim) a little modified thinset over the area,give it a couple days and see how it fares.just a thin coating is all you need.Be sure to burn it in.If this works,and considering the porosity of unsealed Gyp it should,you'll probobly be ok if you burn in your thinset and then conb before laying the Ditra.Good Luck!!:)

Todd, Directions from the gypcrete manufacturer says I should apply their acrylic sealer to the gypcrete 2 hours prior to applying thinset otherwise the gypcrete will suck all of the moisture out of the thinset. Your thoughts? Thanks Peter

Peter that's good advice. That's how I do it before I install the Ditra, for just that reason.

To me that floor still has too much over spray on it. I use a floor sander on most floors I tile and texture comes up easily. With new sand paper I can take up paint thats been down for years. If that's only texture in those pichers it should come up.

Should come right off, it will take some gyp with it but it will come off. How come the painter isn't cleaning up?

I am going to use an angle grinder with 24 grit sand paper to take off the remaining paint. The painter isn't taking it off since he was never notified that the floor needed to be covered. -Peter

You might think about a floor waxer/scrubber with a plastic screen. That grinder may be overkill.

I did the scrubber/waxer last weekend and what is in the pictures is what remains. So I picked up an 7" angle grinder and will be attacking the floor as soon as I finish breakfast and coffee. -Peter

Wow! Good luck that paint must be right in the pores. I have taken overspray off slc with the scrub/wax with no problem. Never had to do it on gyp tho. Have a great day. ;)

Tell the painter you didn't pay him to paint the floors. :D

I guess that's a good demonstration of Gyp's propensity to suck up moisture.

Well I am at the point were materials are being ordered. I am ordering the sun room and kitchen tile today. The sun room in 15' wide and 12' deep and I plan on laying the tile square on. The tiles are 13"x13". Nothing fancy except for a decorative tile at the entrance of the sun room. The kitchen on the other hand (see attached drawing) will have all natural maple cabinets with Ubatuba granite counter top. The tile for the kitchen is 12"x12" bone color. The brain child I had was to lay the tiles diagonally and "randomly" where 4 tiles come together insert a 2"x2" piece of Ubatuba. The idea being a tie in the floor with the counter top. The question I have is what am I getting myself into? How difficult will it be for me to layout a kitchen diagonally considering that the sun room will be the first tile I have ever laid. The cabinets are not installed yet so no problem there. Not sure if I should tile under the cabinets with granite counter tops, won't the additional weight crack the tiles? Is the theory of laying tile on the diagonal the same and laying the tile straight on? Normally one figures 10% overage on tile when ordering, how about when laying on the diagonal? Thanks -Peter

Hey Peter. Laying on the diagonal was the way I did my first tile job, in my bathroom. I laid them out straight, and figured I needed 50 tiles. When I did the diagonal, I figured 55. Ended up using 57. But, I had the luxury of laying it out completely in AutoCAD before I started. I would say the biggest difference between laying staight and on a diagonal is diagonally, I had a LOT more cutting to do. This was my first experience: Bathroom If ya want, I could lay out your bathroom for ya, but it looks like you have a pretty good handle on it. Good luck! Matt

How much extra tile will I need when ordering tile if I go with a diagonal layout? -Peter

I'd figure 12-15%. Another thing is to measure full. In other words if a room is 10' 2"x 8' 9", figure 101/2 ft x 9 ft. This helps.;)

Can I tile under the kitchen cabinets even though the countertop will be granite without the tiles cracking under the weight of the granet? Will the floor support the addition weight of the granite? It was engineered with TGI silent floors with 1.5 inches of gypcrete on top. When we were designing we never thought of granite counter tops. -Peter

No problemo, Peter. :)

Are there any huge advantages when laying tiles on the diagonal to lay tiles under the kitchen cabinets before they are installed? Obviously it more expensive. I obviously want to do the layout pretending that the cabinets are there so that the field in properly centered. Right? -Peter

Peter, You don't need to tile all the way under the cabinets. You could just put the pieces in that will show. The advantage to tiling first is not having to make the cuts around the cabinets. :) Hey, there's another guy from Muskego on here someplace. Joined us yesterday. ;)

If you get a chance point him out. -Peter

Found him. -Peter

Well I just finished laying 180 sqft of Ditra today. The first strip that I laid the thinset was to thick. The second strip was just right. The third was a little to loose. What are the ramifications if the thinset is a little to loose? Even though I mixed the thinset into a bucket of water and let it slake for 10 minuets I still had some lumps of dry thinset in the batch. Is this normal? The thinset I used between the ditra and the gypcrete floor is Mapei Kerabond. The thinset I plan on using above the ditra in Custom's Masterblend (white.) I plan on applying a skim coat of Masterblend to the ditra on Wednesday. Thanks Peter

Well things are coming along slowly. I have finallyt cut the plywood that I bought for the tub deck 2 month ago. Now it's just a matter of tracing out the tub on it and cutting a hole. When attaching the 3/4" plywood deck to the frame is it really necessay to glue it down as well? I plan on using deck screws to attach the plywood to the frame. Thanks Peter

Glue is good. Glue is easy. Glue is cheap.

I have run into a bit of a dilema. When framing the treshold of our neoangle shower I realized that the treshold runs into the tub deck wall. (Picture enclosed) Since the is a Kerdi shower/Kerdi deck is it best to cut the threshold short by 1/2" so the drywall does not have to be cut to go around the threshold? Thanks Peter

The drywall is easy to cut a notch out of. I'd do that. :)

Just to add to my headache I have a bulge in the drywall in our shower. Now I have to put on my drywall apprentice hat. Donald Trump here I come. :D -Peter

Definitely fix the bulge. You're worrying too much about the other stuff. You'll be an old man when this thing is done. :D I do agree that glue is good and cheap. :)

I know what you mean. I ran into one of my neighbors in the subdivision we are building in (he knows how to win friends and influence people) whom I had not seen since last fall. He says "Boy Peter where did all the gray come from?" :D At least my body and sense of humor are still holding up. :rofl: -Peter

Well the niche from Noble Company arrived yesterday and might I say what a fine looking niche it is. I want to thank Eric (e3) and Karla for the exceptional service. Is there a standard height for a niche in a shower? There is a reveal (or step) around the two openings of the niche, does anyone have a clue what they are for? Is there a preferred wall that the niches go on? As it stands that only wall available right now would be directly under the shower head. Thanks Peter

Under the shower head is fine, Peter. Don't worry about the groove. I think is has something to do with the way they rout the foam out of the block. That's a solid piece of foam. No welding. Just tile over it. :) Thank Dale Watnee, too, will ya? It's his creation. :)

Tile layout question master bathroom. The tile for the wall is 8"x12" ceramic, and the corresponding floor tile is 12"x"12 porcelain. Both tiles belong to an American Olean series call "Jerusalem Stone." Which tile should be or is most commonly used on the deck going around the whirlpool tub the wall or floor tile? Thanks Peter

Here is the tile for the shower floor. Does anyone see a problem with the size of the tile for use inside the shower and shower threshold. Thanks Peter

Hi Peter, you can use either size tile. I'd use the 8x10 on the walls in a brick fashion (broken joint) and the 12x12 on the bath floor run straight. Have you got something smaller for the shower floor?;)

Davy, The proposed tile for the shower floor is here Actually the plan is to run the 8"x12" tiles is the vertical vs the horizontal position in the shower and around the tub. I just did know which I sould use onthe tub deck. -Peter

I'd match the tub deck with the rest of the tub and shower walls. I see it comes in a 3x3 for the shower floor.

Well all I can say is progress is being made.

How soon after tiling must I grout? I am hoping that there is no requirement to grout right away. Any downsides to not tiling right away? I would cover the floor with rosin paper until I get a chance to grout. Since I am in tiling mode I just want to keep tiling. Thanks -Peter

Hi Peter, No hurry at all on grouting. Don't do a lot of dancing around on the ungrouted floor, though. ;) Hey, I see we're fast approaching our 200 post limit on your project. Can you finish it in 10 more posts? Just kidding, of course. It's looking good. You're getting there. ;)

John, whatever happeneed to that woman in Houston whos project was over 1,600? Maria something or other. ;)

Well I am about to start Kerdi'ing in the master bathroom and I would like a clarification. For the whirlpool tub deck: On top of the screwed and glued BCX plywood goes thinset and screwed down Durrock. Instead of using Durrock on the tub deck could I use Ditra? Thanks Peter

Yes. I like Ditra on tub decks. You can do the uncoupling and waterproofing at the same time. Not that anyone is going to get really wild in the whirlpool tub and splash gallons of water all over the place, but a little insurance never hurt anyone. ;)

John, How do you handle the deck to wall transition? Do I install Kerdi band from the wall to the tub deck? What about movement in this joint? Is it worth installing Dilex-EKE instead? Thanks Peter

Sunroom done Kitchen done Guest bath in progress

More pics

Nice Work Peter!!

Looking good!:nod:

Well if all goes at planned I will be installing the shower floor for the Kerdi shower this coming weekend. I have only one question. As of right now my shower curb is three 2x4's high (4 1/2") Due to the 5/8" pex radiant heat tubes in the shower, I will have 1 1/2" of mud at the kerdi drain, with an additional 3/4" slope to all walls from the drain. So the total height of the mud will be 2 1/4 inches at the walls and cureb. On top of the will go kerdi and the tile. So I figure I will have about 2" from the top of the shower curb to the shower floor final shower floor. Is 2" enough or should I make my shower curb taller? Thanks

bump, Thanks

hi peter, im from milwaukee too!! id like to see the work you've done and get some pointers from you! thanks jerry

2' Is fine Peter. You add another 2x4 in there and you'll need to be a hurdler to board that shower ;) You are building a shower not a Pool right?? :D :D :D

I would like to water proof the gypcrete under our whirlpool tub before it is installed. I am using Kerdi and Ditra throughout the bathroom. I don't want to install Ditra since it will raise the height of the tub and the tub deck is all tiled. Could I use Kerdi instead, or would I be better off using "Red Guard." I do not plan on installing any tile under the tub. All I need to make sure of is that what ever get applied to the gypcrete will work with construction adhesive since that is what the plumber uses to glue the whilpool down to the floor ( it has 6 blocks of wood that are embeded into the bottom of the whirlpool tub) Thanks

Peter, I don't think you'll be getting water under the tub dais, but yes, you can use Kerdi or you can use Red Guard. :)

Peter,I wouldnt use the Redgaurd on Gypcrete. Use Kerdi or Ditra!!

You know Todd, I was thinking the same thing but I can't back it up with a reason, just instinct.

You know, I think both you guys are full of it. :D

Guest bathroom

I have attached a couple of pictures of the master bathroom in progress. I do have on question, how best to handle the arch of the niche. I fell in love with the arched niche now I just have to figure out how to tile it. My current thought is to picture frame it with bullnose, but how do I picture frame the arch? Is it just a matter of dividing up the arch into N pieces and cutting a bullnose, or is it more complicated than that? Thanks

Bump

Todd, Is this what you are thinking of? Thanks

Hi Peter, Lookin' good. :) Looks like you'll have to cut the bullnose in about 2-in. pieces and just arrange them around the arch as a bricklayer would.

Progress pics

Looks like you had some UN-progress on that last course on the right-hand wall. ;)

Well I have run into a small problem with tiling our shower. When the last row of wall tile gets installed I end up 1/2" short of the ceiling. What should I fill that 1/2" in with? One big grout joint? Thanks

Peter, I'm only now doing my first shower, but I have learned the art of creativity in doing it. Here's how I'd be creative in your shower. If your listello isn't too expensive, run another band of it right above your next course (i.e., about 5 inches above your shower head). I'd do it right where you are, but then it would run into the niche, and I don't know how that would look. Anyway, then you'd end up with a short tile, like about a 2/3 tile at the ceiling line. Mary Ann

Actually Mary Ann the picture posted is not the latest. The design calls for another band of listello just above the shower head. Thats the problem. With the additional listello band in place above the shower head, and then two more courses of wall tile above that, I end up with a 1/2" gap bewteen the top last wall tile and the ceiling. If I got rid of the listello band just above the shower head everything would be fine. Help!

Nice pictures Peter.Yep, thats what i meant for the floor. Mary ann. Ive run listellos and decorative bands into niches and done properly it looks great. In fact i just finished one with a dbl band and 3 shelves.The Listello was only 1 1/2" wide.It really looks nice running into the niche.the tricky part is keeping the pattern running true :)

Progress

Well, I did the shower floor today and I must say hats of to everyone who preceded me in doing a shower floor. It was way more effort than I had expected. Laying floor or wall tile is easier than floating deck mud. Just for reference in case anybody reads this some day. The shower is 39”x58”. I placed the Kerdi drain at 1.5” above the nailed down wire lathe. The thickness of the mud bed at the edges is 2.25”. I used 240#'s of sand topping mix and 120#'s of sand for my 5 to 1 ratio. Had a 1.5 buckets left, which I threw in neighbors lawn. :) I have a couple of low spots that I plan on filling with some thinset. Here are the pics.

Well I went to our house under construction to check out my weekend handy work. The deck is solid, and I mean solid after 12 hours. Not sandy or soft just solid. I will vaccum up some of the loose debris and check for low spots. I am feeling better now that it has hardend up. What really is depressing is that I have learned all these new skills and will more than likely never get to use them again. :(

You could moonlight on weekends, Peter. Big money in the tile business. :D

Whooo Hooooo. I get to use my deck building skills again. :yipee: I will be tearing out my deck and reinstalling it this Saturday. I my haste and being slightly overwhelmed I decided to skip a step and not install the 2"x2" wire lathe above the radiant heat tubes. Baddddd Peter. So out with the old and in with the new. I would like to thank both CX (for raising the concern) and David Taylor for verifing the need of the 2"x2" metal lathe. Thanks :bow:

Well I took out the deck yesterday without any damage to the Kerdi drain or the radiant heat tubes. It took about an hour and and was much harder that I expected. The 3 to 1 mix arount the drain was pretty tough. The 5 to 1 was pretty tough as well. It gave me a inside look of the anatomy of a shower deck.

Picture

What am I looking at here Peter,The rug?

Todd, Yes. To the top would be the doorway to the garage. To the left in the laundy room. To the right a closet. To the bottom a short hallwat that meet hickory flooring. Oh by the way. Based upon where the rug is positioned right now. I will have a 3 inch skinny cut where the tile meets the wood floor. I fighure there is not a whole lot that can be done there. Thanks

Move your field tile over 1/2 a tile and down 1/2 a tile.crow feet the corners.Turn the 6x6's on a 45 to eliminate line up problems.Squae up the 4 square inserts. There, done and i dont even have any thinset on me :D

Another picture

Todd, New picture

Todd, I shifted the tile 1/2 tile down, leaving the rug in place (picture1)The 4 crows feet look good. Where the tile meets the wood floor we end up with a 8" tile, this is good. The only negative I see is the skinnies at the top of the picture that run along the door and will continue down the wall. I think the positives out weight the negatives. Your thoughts? The width of the inside field tile is 23 3/4”. Using 4 of the 6”x6” turned 45 degrees won't fit in this area. How does one calculate how much of the 6”x6 to cut? Obviously they won't be cut in half.. I looked at John's book regarding how to set up diagonal reference lines, will this also work for the interior of the tile carpet? Do I create layout line from these reference line as normal? Does the idea of 2 tiles and 2 grout spaces for setting the layout work well? Thanks

Hey Peter, :) Now you're cookin'.

Here are some pic's of the dry layout. Ran a few tiles short.

Peter, If your taking votes I like the ones on the last ones. That layout looks great. Good job.

Peter: As a suggestion, you might consider a slightly narrower yet slightly taller framed pattern---- if your room allows it. If you take out 1 tile (it appears to be 2") in the picture frame width and add that same amount to the height it appears you will eliminate some of the very small triangles and also not have to cut the tips off of other tile. Try it an see how it fits your space .

Actually I did a redesign over the last two days and added 4" to the length to get rid of the small triangles that you mention. Thanks for the heads-up.

:yipee: lets see lets see :yipee: :D